a nice fat, steaming shit sandwich. One with stale white bread and the other with whatever bread you imagine it to be.

To mxp, I understand your thinking and the choices you will eventually have to act upon. I'd agree except I have zero idea how bad der Grumph would be. He might be so shockingly horrid that the people of our country might notice and get behind doing something about our political system. One argument says the split in both parties will lead to the rising of a third party, a sane one. I'd prefer that to be accurate but I've lived long enough to know that the only thing we can predict is that something would happen. Way too many variables to make a reasoned prediction.

Hillary? She is a greater known that will still be four years or more of daily shit sandwiches with a better choice of bread.

I hate the political calculus of massive political change. People will suffer from either of these two becoming president. The only good I can see coming from it is if the one which causes the most political chaos possible occurs. I think that would occur with der Drumph winning. It would split the Democrats severely like the Republicans are now. I worry the Republicans are more willing to take advantage of the Dem split for their own advantage. They are always faithful to the principle of getting the most for themselves regardless of what they have to do or how it looks. Tough call. I don't see any chance of deciding without more time passing.

I can safely say that I will not vote for Hillary. I live in Tennessee. My vote doesn't matter unless I vote for a R. Marsha Blackburn is my US Rep. for fuck's sake. Last week my wife and I were with two old friends at their home. They're rabid gardeners like my wife. I appreciate their results but it isn't my thing. All four of us were strong Obama supporters in 2008, less so in 2012, and completely disappointed now. He, a semi-retired internist, is as firmly for Bernie as I am. We've both wanted a presidential candidate of Bernie's caliber our whole lives. His wife was leaning Bernie while mine had yet to declare though I was pretty sure she is interested in Bernie but would prefer Hillary in the end. The election came up at dinner. His wife said it looked like it was over for Bernie and that it looked like it was time to think about supporting Hillary. Both guys said it is still a long shot but it isn't over, yet. We both expressed deep reservations about Hillary. My wife then said we'd just have to get over it because not voting for her was childish. That pretty much shut down all free discussion. Had I let my mouth gotten in front of my head I'd have been less than kind to her at that point but we were with these two very good friends. Both of them are kind to a fault and neither of them is comfortable with heated conflict. It was hard holding back my two thoughts. It does not matter who you vote for in this cesspool because it doesn't count and if you are "disappointed" with Obama you'll hate the Hillary followup. I do know their thinking is of the lesser evil variety. Both of them said as much. I can't say I agree that Hillary is the lesser evil in the longer run. We have 40 years of presidencies as evidence.

I understand your reasoning and I share your rage at Hillary. I literally cannot listen to her voice any more...and it's only April. I don't think I can bring myself to vote for her under any circumstances. But to say this is a real conundrum is a gross understatement.

Until very recently, without Internet access. So, I can definitely relate to that. Regarding the general election, at this point, I am reasonably certain that Hillary cannot beat Trump. I say that looking at how the Republicans have voted in greater numbers than the Democrats during this primary. If all the Independents had voted, and there hadn't been suppression of Democratic voters, we would have a better idea of how the general election will look. Some Independents lean conservative, but most lean liberal. Many Democrats and Independents feel that Hillary is a conservative calling herself a Democrat, and absolutely will not vote for her. There really is only one way out of this conundrum, and that is to work like hell to make sure Bernie is in the general election in November, or we're going to have a Republican in the White House. That is how I see it right now.

I will not cast a vote for another DLC dem, ever.

I've had enough.

Voting for HRC would be like voting for Nixon, with the added nausea-inducing elements of her enormous wealth and her sense of entitlement.

we all know exactly what we will get and it wont be good for the 99%.With t rump it is unknown, and while I am not advocating for trump the fear of the unknown is never as bad as imagined and as POTUS he will not be granted supreme rule no matter what he thinks. I am not so sure with hrc because the Clintons always seem to find a way to lie,cheat or steal their way to get what they want.

I just hope that nobody here has any illusions about the kind of man that Donald Trump is. This election cycle, we've seen the lowest scum on the planet run for election and get a majority of the Republican vote. It's a terrible thing for America, and a terrible thing for everyone. His policies would lead to poverty and death.

I agree. Except I'd go even further and say that ALL Republican politicians are scum, and all of their policies will lead to poverty and death.

But I guess the question is, do we want that poverty and death now, or do we want it later? Because HRC winning in 2016 will mean the Dems will get decimated (again) in the midterms, will almost certainly lose the White House in 2020 (because do you really think Obama/Clinton is going to give us 16 years?) and then will be gerrymandered out of existence after the census. After this, the GOP will have free rein to do whatever the hell they want. Because whoever wins the White House in 2020 may not be as loutish as Trump, but their policies will be just as harmful. But on the other hand, were Trump to win in 2016, I think it would increase the likelihood of this scenario playing out in reverse (in our favor.)

So it looks to me like we're going to have to take a beating. So do we want to take it now, or take it later?

Where have you been? The Left end of the Democratic Party has been taking it in the teeth for DECADES! Those beatings have been ongoing, and the only way it's going to stop is if we start hitting back. Starting with this election. The Dem elite are not nice people. They are power-mongers. If we ever want to get their attention, or whatever charade they have that passes for "their respect", it will have to HURT. All of my thoughts on what to do with my vote hinge on what will put the most hurt on the Dem power elite. For sabotaging Bernie's campaign alone, they deserve that.

As for Trump, he's a truly punk-assed Hitler. Hitler had the bloody military behind him. Trump has insulted ours, at every point in chain-of-command. My only question about a Trump Presidency would be whether a general mutiny of the rank-and-file military would come before an impeachment, with both major parties in favor. Given Trump's giant, bloated, atomic, rubber ego, I think it would be a race to one of those two results. For that reason, I don't understand all the shaking-of-the-Trump-bogeyman-in-the-face that has been going on. We will have the establishment Dems doing that, soon enough. There's no rush.

I tend to think it will be pure Schadenfreude, instead. I've had Trump's nattering in the background for most of my adult life, his self-aggrandizing as a sort of regular, repulsive background noise, and him winning the White House might actually let him experience for the first time, somebody with real power to do so, telling him "NO"! The spoiled rich boy could use a lot of that. -And the best part -- a Trump win would finally let him know what it's like to BE Barack Obama! Don't we owe him that? In fact, he would yearn to ONLY have as much obstructionism as Obama has enjoyed. And I would personally start spreading the word about how Trump's birth certificate was faked, as he was obviously not born in this country. Not here. Someplace where the people have bright orange skin. Wherever that might be. -And I think he's a secret Hindu, too. Help me repeat it enough, and it will become TRUE! No fooling!