Ain’t No Kind of Political Vision Anywhere

When a community has troubles coming down the line, when the people need some way to address those troubles… That’s when you need Vision. Not talking here about virtuous generalizations: “All people should be free,” “We need to respect nature” kind of things. Nor am I talking about ideological nor technological supposed “remedies.” Those have their place, but there’s a ton of things that are…

Specific.

Example: Ocean life is dying; deserts are growing; freak weather is destroying crops. The trouble coming: food prices are sure to rise well beyond affordability. Where’s the politician, media head, talking about …. I don’t know?… a Massive Urban Gardening Project? Where’s the plan, who in public life even hints at this certain coming problem?

Speaking of Urban: Anybody running things notice yet that a huge number of US Cities are crumbling? Anything to do about that? Donald The Delusional imagines Corporations are going to leave cheap-labor world to come back to the US. Stupid as it is, that’s closer to a vision dealing with a problem voters themselves see than anything Approved Candidates have offered. Or even mentioned. (That stupid vision is what got him enough critical votes to win.)

Insupportable Debt: It’s crushing the world. Who (besides Michael Hudson) is pushing for the Jubilee? Just wipe out debt; personal and business. Debt is mostly based on money lent that was simply written into the Books. There’s probably not enough electrons and atoms in computers to make a basketball. It’s the social function of debt that matters. Give everybody a fresh start.

That’s off the top of my head. What immediate or inevitable problems do you see as requiring concrete Action and Vision?

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thanatokephaloides's picture

"Where there is no Vision, the People perish!"
-- Jewish Scriptures, Proverbs 29:18 (KJV)

And if there's one thing both People and Planet are doing right now, it's perishing.

Proverbs 29:20 also applies to most of those in power right now:

"Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him."

(pssst -- Your Majesty, the term is "idiot"!)

Bible passages source

Bad

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

@thanatokephaloides Wonder if there's any specific Vision about concrete problems you might offer, that politicians should be raising. Remember the "Apollo Project"? The Equal Rights Amendment? All gone for some reason.

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Orwell: Where's the omelette?

When I read James Howard Kunstler pointing out the insanity of building shopping centers that have to be air conditioned all over the United States, not to mention homes, office buildings, universities and baseball stadiums, I am astonished when liberal so-called environmentalists respond that we can solve this problem with the word, "solar." Solar? Really?

Do they really know that solar collectors will solve this problem? If so, why have we not solved it?

I love your example of urban gardens, and I'm very interested in community design incorporating farming, plus solar, plus bike trails, plus walking-distant shopping. None of my grandparents owned a car in all the years they raised their kids. I think we can return to walkable living.

But I really agree with Kunstler that we're kidding ourselves if we think we are going to solve the energy crisis with easy answers we don't really understand. And I think this is a problem directly related to public education and the century-long abandonment of what is heard as an ugly word in the education debates, "rigor." I think we aren't equipped to solve the problems we're facing because we're significantly undereducated.

I agree with you that no candidates emerge with refreshing, exciting plans for solutions. But that may be because there are no such plans in this country. Your grassroots ideas are the most promising, I think. Doing less harm by doing more natural everyday things may be the right way to start.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Linda Wood

renewable energy, by itself, probably won't solve it.

However, even if renewable energy *would* solve it, it still wouldn't have been used to solve it--and you know why.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cassiodorus's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal that the fossil industries be shut down. This will probably require something other than capitalism.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Cassiodorus

All I'm saying is that saving civilization will take more than simply getting onto renewable energy.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

thanatokephaloides's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

Solar, by itself, won't solve it -- renewable energy, by itself, probably won't solve it.

Actually, that's not necessarily the case. Solar, in particular, is plentiful, but expensive infrastructure is required to gather and store it. Which brings us to the real cause of our problems here, in your own words:

However, even if renewable energy *would* solve it, it still wouldn't have been used to solve it -- and you know why.

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@thanatokephaloides

Probably we in the developed world would need to change certain aspects of our lives and society, regardless of whether we got onto renewable energy or not. I'm saying a little willingness to give up the excess and change the erroneous would probably be required, even if we were on solar, wind, etc. Just to pull up a few examples: 1) Our houses are, for the most part, built wrong. 2)We have too many golf courses. 3)We build right on the beach and on wetlands, using what I call "faith-based real estate development (in other words, you put infill somewhere that shouldn't be built on and pretend it's solid land.) 4)Corporate farming is done in a way that depletes the soil and poisons the water. 5)Our food industries are borked, and depend largely on trucks for transport (can we have electric semis in the near future? If not, we're going to have to resuscitate rail and figure out ways to keep the dudes who have been driving those trucks employed at a reasonable wage).

You see what I'm saying. Simply switching to solar won't solve all of what's wrong in this system. That doesn't mean we don't need to switch to solar and other renewables for as much of our energy as we possibly can. Obviously, we do need to do that.

But unfortunately, we won't do that, because my second statement holds true. And that is way more important than the sadly hypothetical question of what we should do if we were actually going to try to save ourselves.

We could have saved ourselves, but we were too lazy. And too damned cheap.

--Kurt Vonnegut

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cassiodorus's picture

I will be recommending a revival of the Age of Utopian Dreaming, on the basis of utopias of sustainability. The world is slowly waking up from "there is no alternative." Vision will take time.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

Centaurea's picture

@Cassiodorus

Vision will take time.

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"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi

"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone

Cassiodorus's picture

@Centaurea if we don't know what to do. It's like the lyric from the John Lennon song: "how can I go forward when I don't know which way I'm facing?"

It will be much easier when we know what to do.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

Wally's picture

@Cassiodorus

Good luck, though, with the Greening of America.

But it isn't just or even largely a matter of people being personally responsible for their lifestyle choices.

Unless the top 100 US companies spewing carbon into the atmosphere aren't politically stopped from profitting in the earth's destruction and right away, fuhgeddaboudit. Only then can the US act as a world leader.

There is a viable even if imperfect candidate who can make that happen with our help. A once in our lifetimes chance. And beyond our lifetime, it's waaaay too late. I'm pretty sure it won't happen, though. Too much cynicism. Such is life.

Edit/Add:

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@Wally @Wally points with me (altho he's already my pick) with his answers on the US military wars/carbon link, and also with his acknowledgment that overpopulation contributes to the problem (me: actually it's the biggest problem). We'll need someone with bold, strict time-limit Apollo-like plans and also the willingness to recognize that the US and a few Euro countries can't do this alone. It will require working with the leaders of the biggest country polluters to also make major, difficult changes including implementing birthstop policies.

Honorable Mention to one Elizabeth Warren for some spirited answers in the climate forum, including this tart dismissal of Chris "Fredo" Cuomo's question about light bulbs (go to the 8'00" mark)

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@wokkamile with regard to the reason things aren't getting done, "corruption". See my comment below...

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Hawkfish's picture

@p cook

One difference between Warren and Sanders was the power district idea. Bernie wanted to institutionalize public power administration it Liz wants to simply regulate it. In my experience it is much harder to undo institutions than regulations.

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Wally

"Warren has a plan for that?"

Whereas Bernie is just a pie-in-the-sky idealist with no concrete policy ideas?

So that's gonna be the tune they're singing for the next nine months.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Wally's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

. . . that there's an Obama vs Clintons Inc battle going on that is being kept very hidden from us.

Many of the Clintons Inc rats have jumped from the HMS Kamala and have boarded the HMS Warren.

I don't think most of them are really all that enthusiastic about Warren, although some may well be, but they see her as a means of keeping Biden from winning on the first ballot and splitting the lefty vote and keeping Bernie away from the nomination for good measure.

I have no doubt that Warren will cut a deal with Biden to be his VP if and when the necessity and opportunity arises. I'm pretty sure she's very much aligned with Obama (which is one of the main reasons, I surmise, Clinton did not opt for her as a VP pick).

If chaos ensues, however, and the convention winds up going to a second ballot, watch out for HerHeinous. Where's Alligator Ed????

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snoopydawg's picture

@Wally

Warren and Clinton talk behind the scenes as 2020 race intensifies

As she seeks to blend her movement-based progressive campaign with a Democratic establishment long wary of her populist brand of politics, Warren has been maintaining and creating relationships with a wide array of Democratic establishment figures. And if the race for nomination goes long — as many Democrats now predict — Clinton could become pivotal as an ally, an adversary or a neutral observer.

More immediately, Warren would no doubt like to win over support from Clinton voters, particularly women — and women of color — as she battles Sanders, former Vice President Joe Biden and the rest of a field that trails the top-tier triumvirate.

But Warren has made little effort to publicly highlight ties to Clinton, who is perceived by many on the left as too centrist and who was defeated in an election Clinton and her allies believe was heavily colored by President Donald Trump waging a misogynistic campaign. To the extent that Democratic primary voters fear a repeat scenario in 2020 — and to the extent that she's competing with Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders for the votes of progressives — there may be good reason for Warren to keep her distance from Clinton publicly.
....

More important, an explicit or implicit blessing from Clinton could help Warren if she finds herself battling for delegates and superdelegates at a contested Democratic convention next summer.

"Hillary Clinton would absolutely have influence over a number of delegates to this convention," said Deb Kozikowski, the vice chair of the Massachusetts Democratic Party.

With a progressive base behind her, Warren's political need is to make establishment Democrats comfortable with her candidacy. Clinton, whose politics arguably have been closer to Biden's over the course of her career, has deep credibility in those circles.

Oh waah! Poor Herheinous only lost because people didn't want a woman president. Bull pucky. Or because the right wing had smeared her for 30 years. Her was involved in every decision Bill made and her time as SOS was bloody as hell. That candidates can work behind the scenes to get delegates and super delegates to vote for them is everything that is wrong with the democrats. The Virginia delegates should have voted for Bernie since he won the state, but they all went to Her. If they can override the will of the voters.....well it makes our elections a sham. Or a scam. Take your pick.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Wally's picture

@snoopydawg

I'm not so sure what to make of it though or entirely convinced of the conversations taking place. Lots of stuff gets reported these days but coming from anonymous sources, who knows?

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Warren was calling HRC hoping to get some kind of support or eventual help with influencing delegates. But who knows how Clinton might have responded if such a call took place?

Lots of speculating at this point (and that's what makes it so interesting and stimulating for me).

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Wally's picture

@snoopydawg

are "pretty thin:"

But, yea, there probably is something, exactly what we don't know, going on.

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snoopydawg's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

I'm seeing Neena Neena and her fellow ghouls tweet this out even though Bernie has said how he will pay for it over and over...

Liz was asked if she would break up the energy industry and she said that she had no problem with people who make batteries and light bulbs making a profit. Whoosh.

But ByeDone's answer to what he would do about climate change day one was so garbled that no one knows what he said. I'll try to find it.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

snoopydawg's picture

@snoopydawg

"What are some of the first things you would do to address the seriousness of climate change"

IMG_3726.JPG

Good lord. Just what was he trying to say? Seems like he got caught up with trying to talk about Trump rolling back regulations that were passed during MyBoss and ByeDone's tenure specifically the mileage standards and then bring something about appliances and then talk about how much gas would be saved which is $2.5 billion I mean $5 billion and ..... something about co2.

I didn't know that my fridge ran on gasoline. I wish I knew what happened after he finished. That the democrats are still keeping him in the race shows me that they don't care if Trump wins again. He should exit stage right.Next.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

thanatokephaloides's picture

@snoopydawg

"I'm sorry, Mr. Biden, but I'm not a Gibber, and I've never been to Gibberland, so I've had no opportunity to learn to speak Gibberish. Would you restate that in simple English, please?

/s

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Hawkfish's picture

@snoopydawg

Before he started drooling. It was terrifying to watch.

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@snoopydawg

people will take it as the truth. Isn't that nifty?

Let me put it this way. If you don't know how we're going to pay for it, you've been hibernating with Whoopi Goldberg for the past four years. Or the past forty.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cassiodorus's picture

@Wally What there isn't is the will of the ruling class to push through a real solution. Instead what you've got is people mouthing platitudes while Hoovering up fossil fuel money.

A revolution of some sort will be necessary.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

Wally's picture

@Cassiodorus

Yea, well, I'll take Bernie's kind. And I'm pretty, pretty sure the chance for that kind ain't gonna come any time soon again after this coming go round in 2020.

And I don't see any other kind comin' any time soon or in time to avert climate catastrophe, either.

Well, let's hope for the best and do what we can to get us there.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

That’s off the top of my head. What immediate or inevitable problems do you see as requiring concrete Action and Vision?

The Climate. We need to stop the hemming and hawing now and put the same kind of commitment to migration to renewable energy as we did to winning World War II.

The education of our youth. We need to restore a genuine education system, such that our youth are fully qualified for adult wage jobs before they are asked to pay for any educational expenses at all. And in addition to that, we need to insist that our youth be actually educated: with art, music, civics, critical thinking skills, etc.

There's a couple to start off with......

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

@thanatokephaloides is to discard that misbegotten bastard Social Studies, which is nothing more than indoctrination in politically correct opinions, with actual, rigorous instruction in civics, geography and history.

I will assert that the fundamental problem with American education is not teachers, social climbing sycophants though some of them are, nor with administrators, overpaid incompetents though some of them are, but with the dumbed down curriculum.

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Mary Bennett

@Nastarana year of the required two of Math and require a year of Real US History (covering "controversies" in history) and the Constitution/Govt, and revamp one year of the required two in Science to accommodate a year of Environmental Science/Home Economics. The ES portion would include basic info on ecosystems, major sources of pollution, current state of the planet, and solutions. The HE part would include how to live responsibly in a drastically changing world, personal accounting/budget balancing, the consumer side as with credit cards and loans, practical how-to stuff like sewing, gardening, cooking.

One of the most useful classes I took at my public HS was a class in typing and the class in Civics by a great teacher. A complete waste was the dreary offering by droning teachers in Science, Math and that brutally boring final year of English. Re Math, probably 97% of the students won't need or much use the required Algebra and Geometry, nor will Trig or Calculus play much of a role in their adult lives.

I could go on -- much of secondary education in this country is poorly thought out and taught and badly in need of freshening up for the 21st C.

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@wokkamile

Science and Math is difficult to discuss among progressives. I hesitate to bring it up because so many progressives are teachers who, from my experience, feel as you do that

A complete waste was the dreary offering by droning teachers in Science, Math and that brutally boring final year of English. Re Math, probably 97% of the students won't need or much use the required Algebra and Geometry, nor will Trig or Calculus play much of a role in their adult lives.

All students, which is to say, all people, now need the work of well educated scientists, engineers, and theoreticians to solve the disastrous problem of environmental collapse. At the same time, scientists are essential in sustaining the support system we currently rely on for our survival. If we do not have enough people well educated in science, math, physics, chemistry, and biology, critical thinking and creative ideas will not supply the knowledge with which to solve the biggest problems we face.

If Science and Math teachers are dreary and droning it is because they aren't knowledgeable or excited by their subjects. Teaching of these subjects is imperative for all students early on so that the incremental progress toward high-level skill is possible for students who can, and who wish to, continue in math and science. Turning it upside down and backwards, as we have in abandoning rigorous study, has led to our reaping of the whirlwind. College freshmen now need remedial math in order to start calculus. But it doesn't work that way. You can't start at age 18 to learn the basics of mathematics necessary for science, engineering and medicine.

We have built a system that is poisoning our life support, but we cannot just walk away from it and dream. We cannot just plug in our cars to a nuclear power plant that will destroy what's left of our environment. That is the disaster that our politically savvy and morally ignorant leadership envisions, a simple answer about which they know nothing.

I apologize if my response to your comment is confrontational. Public education is a volatile subject among progressives. As a leftist, I believe strongly in public education, but about education, I am a conservative.

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@Linda Wood
The moment I hear the words, "never going to use that" in a conversation about educational curriculum, I tune out. The average person is never going to "use" 98% of anything that we try to teach beyond 6th grade -- remember that right up until the second world war, there was nothing at all unusual about dropping out before high school. "Why do I need to learn this? I'm going to be a farmer!" is a fricking cliche in our culture. Bleargh.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

@Linda Wood confrontational. Perhaps I didn't flesh out thoroughly enough my thoughts above, but I had several points to make and alternatives to propose.

I would suggest we prioritize better. what is taught for the basic minimum requirements to graduate. My guess is that standards in math and science for HS were upped following the Sputnik scare ca 1957, but that's just a guess. These standards, or the need for them for most -- emphasize MOST -- students, probably hasn't been substantially revised since the 50s. For most students not having a bent in science/math or intending to possibly go into a field of study in college where it's needed, these classes are unnecessary. For the 5-10% who need further study in these 2 areas, those classes would still be available, just not mandatory for the rest.

But for all this 60 yrs or so of toughened M/S requirements, at least in science I don't see any appreciable societal benefit. People overall are about as ignorant in this area as before. Going from personal experience only, a major problem is the narrow, uninspiring way it is taught and what is emphasized -- dry facts to be memorized (many obsolete a few yrs later as science marches on) -- as opposed to alternative ways to make the subject exciting.

Generally, I would think a person going thru our secondary schools is much more valuable a citizen if better informed on thinking skills, geography and history, how our political and gov'l systems work -- things which can be applied practically every day in the real world and which are vital to citizens in a democracy living in a complex and often dangerous world.

To a possible objection by the traditionalists that at least going thru the M/S process teaches students to sharpen their thinking, I would offer that this happens infrequently. A better way to teach critical thinking is to teach critical thinking skills directly. I would much prefer a semester of that coupled with a component of Debate, as opposed to the boring M/S additional year currently forced upon students.

In any case, in a thread about visionary ideas, in that spirit I tried to offer some semi-bold reform suggestions to get us thinking about new ways of doing things in the classroom.

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Wally's picture

@Nastarana

* One in 4 urban public high schools offer a JROTC program.
* One in 20 rural public high schools offer a JROTC program.
* JROTC is offered at about 3,400 public high schools today.

The programs recieve federal and local tax funds.

The Pentagon's own research shows that, while JROTC doesn't really improve academic outcomes, it works well as a turnstile for the armed forces. It's obvious why the program is so strongly supported by the Pentagon: about 40 percent of students who spend at least 3 years in JROTC go into the military after graduation.

Instead of the legal draft we fought against during the Vietnam War, we started looking at the "poverty draft," people being pushed into the military by their economic and social status.

From "Dismantling the School-to-Soldier Pipeline" from the Summer 2019 issue of Jacobin: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/08/dismantling-the-school-to-soldier-pip...

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@Wally
my kids' info with the recruiters.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

thanatokephaloides's picture

@Nastarana

As for education, the place to start is to discard that misbegotten bastard Social Studies, which is nothing more than indoctrination in politically correct opinions, with actual, rigorous instruction in civics, geography and history.

I may be showing my age, but in my childhood Social Studies was actual, rigorous instruction in civics, geography and history, in an introductory form suitable for grammar school students. In middle school ("junior high" as it was called then) the courses were split into civics, geography and history.

And political correctness as we know it today hadn't really been invented yet. Smile

I will assert that the fundamental problem with American education is not teachers, social climbing sycophants though some of them are, nor with administrators, overpaid incompetents though some of them are, but with the dumbed down curriculum.

And the evil, foul, and vile invention of high-stakes testing which drives said dumbing-down. Bad

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

@thanatokephaloides Back when there was industrial capitalism, before it was replaced with financial capitalism, people actually had the opportunity to find a job and to actually learn something of value on the job.

But now, the service industry (which is the employment financial capitalism produces) seldom requires more brain power than it takes to flip a burger, so it begs the questions: "What is the point of a solid education? And how do you earn a living wage with low skill service industry jobs?"

Our leaders, Sanders included, have not figured out that there is no equivalent antidote to financial capitalism like labor unions were for industrial capitalism. Financial capitalism can use workers from the cheapest labor sources in the world and unions can't prevent that.

The only thing that will work is the return of industry. We have to start making shit here again. To have our intellectual property, often achieved with tax dollars, sent overseas deprives us all of the ability to produce products invented here and to learn while we produce. We have to require manufacturing here.

Whether industry returns under socialism or capitalism or a mixture of the two (and how much of each) is the debate we should be having.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@davidgmillsatty

But now, the service industry (which is the employment financial capitalism produces) seldom requires more brain power than it takes to flip a burger, so it begs the questions: "What is the point of a solid education?

A solid, genuine education is valuable in and of its own right. And a thinking populace is the principal antidote to the abuses of financial (late-stage) capitalism, which is why the Betsy DeVoses of this country want it wiped out.

Consider: while high school graduates had to actually be educated human beings, Americans demanded and got real journalism and real domestic industry. All that was over by about 1990 or so.

A dumbed-down country is far easier to rip off than an educated one.

[video:https://youtu.be/YwZ0ZUy7P3E]

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

@thanatokephaloides I absolutely agree that a good solid education is absolutely necessary to be an informed citizen and for one's self improvement. But the cost of that kind of education today is out of the financial ability of most Americans. K-12 public schooling is nowhere nearly as good as it was fifty years ago. And the costs of a college or university education are outrageous. Community college may still be affordable for most of America, but even that might not last that long. Those costs have been rapidly rising as well and in some places nearly rival the costs of state universities.

It is very hard now for kids of college age to justify the costs of a college degree and being saddled with huge debt when there is little hope of their ability to get a job that will allow them to pay off their debt.

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@davidgmillsatty alone should not be the entire focus of an education? Total paradigm shift in America today of course but our relentless focus on financial remuneration for said education has also helped dumb this country down to where we are today. Imho. It's part of why wall street is stuffed with the brightest in math while the world burns.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

@lizzyh7 It should not be. But when the costs are outrageous, it seems very unrealistic for most people to get a degree just for self enlightenment.

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@thanatokephaloides Idiocracy is so un-PC. But this just scratches the surface of how UN-PC it could have been if it had really drilled down into the IQ question, a taboo subject if there ever was one.

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@davidgmillsatty @davidgmillsatty burgers, I doubt most jobs (97%??) require anything more difficult than basic math. And yet all the higher math requirements in HS, then to get into an elite university (is it one yr of calculus?) or to meet curriculum standards in college. Crazy waste of time.

A "solid, genuine education"? What that is a few of us have been discussing. I'm for reform and major change in what students are required to learn.

Nothing original -- a guy teaching Citizen Numeracy (practical, applied mathematics for the average citizen) at Cornell, Andrew Hacker, has been advocating a re-thinking of the STEM hype and over-emphasis on math for years.

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@wokkamile We certainly could use a much more pragmatic approach to education. The flip side to STEM is all the ridiculous social and pseudo science that colleges teach and/or totally useless humanities courses other that for chit chatting at a coffee bar.

College does not teach people how to buy a home, how to insure themselves, how to take care of their health, how to evaluate scientific or political or legal claims, or how to make anything, and on and on.

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@davidgmillsatty be a role for utility in higher education. Especially given the tremendous cost involved for many. Actually, much of that cost is unnecessary. The colleges and universities kept raising their prices, year after year, and by the time enough people started complaining, the costs were already astronomical. Redundant and trivial administrators added to the payrolls, often at very high salaries. Ridiculous salaries paid to football and basketball coaches. Who ends up paying for all that?

We could start there re reforming higher education. What a scandal and scam.

Then the curriculum. I've already spoken re the absurd math requirements for many elite schools. I also agree that many classes in the humanities/social sciences are overly narrow, trivial and embarrassingly silly. It's not so much about teaching students important things they will need to understand and live in the world; it's more about satisfying the egos and whims and professional needs of the perfessers.

As for doing a better job of producing knowledgable and competent political/economic citizens, we need to start that process in HS. A follow-up Citizen Economics class could be offered in college to cover things like mortgages, investment and the like. I would also, were I running things, require a mandatory class in Critical Thinking, to cover how to navigate a world of too much information, disinformation and junk.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@wokkamile

I would also, were I running things, require a mandatory class in Critical Thinking,

.... every academic year ....

to cover how to navigate a world of too much information, disinformation and junk.

OK, fixed it! Smile

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

mimi's picture

they are either too fast or too slow for us primitively feeling humans. And they can't even produce a basketball. Darn it. And I loved Michael Jordan so much, when I was an adult kiddo.

All those heavy thoughts in the morning .../s

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however, precludes visionary solutions.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@HenryAWallace

precludes all solutions--except a solution to the problem of "How do I (or the people I work for) get more money and power?"

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

except as to "visionary." Inasmuch as vision is a necessary element to any solution at all of our problems, "visionary solutions" covers all possible solutions. IMO, anyway.

And I'm not so much sitting as semi-reclining. (My mornings are lazy, especially weekend mornings.)

But, yes, they do solve the tough one of how to get more money/power. In fairness to us, though, once we elect them, we give them power and therefore the ability to make more money. And we also give them money. Well, us and all future generations of taxpayers who are stuck with the debt they run up because they've so bloated what we laughing call our government, even though neither of those two words is accurate.

Oops. I seem to be especially bitter this morning. Maybe I should not have stopped putting sugar in my coffee? I'd best see if smiley7 has posted this week's edition of his wonderful Saturday open threads. They're almost always a soothing start to the weekend.

Happy Saturday!

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Lookout's picture

...but there are people moving in the right direction.

3 min trailer...
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejMHuRzYlmE]

To access the entire film...
https://www.discoverpermaculture.com/video-1-pdc-2019

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Wally's picture

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We need to end corruption in government. At the end of Warrens excellent answer to the light bulb question she states, "corruption" as the reason things aren't getting done. This is an issue that unites the Right and Left. A candidate should make voiding Citizen United through whatever means necessary and restructuring our elections the #1 priority, "first 100 days". By restructuring our elections I mean setting election time frames and limiting funding through whatever means necessary. Only then can we have a government for, by, and of the people. (And avert civil war.)

As far as light bulbs, I want my incandescent bulbs. They are easy on my eyes. LED and the like are unhealthy.

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Wally's picture

@p cook

. . . if and after she's nominated. In my mind, that's the most basic building block of corruption.

Not to mention, her ties with Third Way, CAP, and various Brock organizations.

Her treasurer is on record as making a big contribution to one of Brock's many fronts, American Bridge.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Wally

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Wally's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

. . . to give a few bux to Tim Black. I used to watch him all the time in 2016 but have lapsed. From here on in, I will be checking out his YouTube vids regularly.

Thanks!

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Wally

It occurs to me that maybe I should occasionally write up which good online sources I've found, so people can watch them and/or support them if they like.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Wally's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

I can't fathom why anyone watches MSM aside from YouTube clips referenced by online sources.

I can't watch MSM five minutes without my blood pressure going up each way about 10 points.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Wally

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

snoopydawg's picture

@Wally

Warren wants you to ask yourself which president do you want beholden to dark money? She seriously asked that question. And people are defending candidates taking money from PACs even though they are shadier than all get out. The same people who were upset when citizens united passed. Making corruption acceptable again. Just like they have accepted wars if the right party does them. It's the hypocrisy.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@snoopydawg

Make Corruption Acceptable Again

Vote Warren!

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

snoopydawg's picture

@Wally

Warren wants you to ask yourself which president do you want beholden to dark money? She seriously asked that question. And people are defending candidates taking money from PACs even though they are shadier than all get out. The same people who were upset when citizens united passed. Making corruption acceptable again. Just like they have accepted wars if the right party does them. It's the hypocrisy.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

@Wally

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@p cook

As far as light bulbs, I want my incandescent bulbs. They are easy on my eyes. LED and the like are unhealthy.

The only difference is that most current LED bulbs pulsate, like fluorescents and metal vapor (mercury/sodium) bulbs do. Simple, easy electronic fixes exist for the LEDs which would make the bulbs continuous-wave output like incandescents but without the huge heat waste. We should demand this.

(I, too, suffer when exposed to too much pulsating-only light.)

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

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Everyone wants corruption out of our democracy except those holding the levers of power. This needs to be issue 1 in our public conversation. Constitutional amendment if that is what it takes. Nothing will change until we take back our government. That is my idea. That is my vision. I have many more but this need to happen first.

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Wally's picture

@p cook

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqT59dDf8EU]

Time flies:

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br2tA52YzAw]

So:

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsBwBct0_5U]

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@Wally a few times. Easily the best live band I’ve ever seen. I mean, who gets SIX curtain calls? They did.

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Orwell: Where's the omelette?

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Wally's picture

@jim p

The Chambers Brothers were absofuckinglutely amazing.

I gotta rank Time has Come Today as my favorite song ever. Damn dark, but it cracks me up how they were always laughing through it.

Those poor guys used to get busted left and right for pot while other bands scooted scot free for the most part.

Lester Chambers is still around, having got him some Jesus: https://www.lesterchambers.com/

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@Wally I love that cowbell!

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Creosote.'s picture

so why not vote him in and following his expiring allow a woman - say, Warren - to become president.
It would all look so natural.

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