Open Thread - Thurs 29 June 2023: Pizza? At Pompeii?
Pizza? At Pompeii?
Archaeologists at Pompeii have uncovered a wall painting which seems to show a pizza, or something like a pizza; a pizza precursor, pre-pizza, or maybe a pizza-oid type of entity. The pizza, foccaccia or bread in the image doesn't have tomato sauce on it, of course. Tomatoes are a new world fruit/vegetable and weren't brought Europe until the 15 or 1600s at the earliest and the first evidence of their being used in cooking in Italy wasn't until the late 1600s. But still... It's bread, with a topping of maybe fruit and/or vegetables, and/or pesto, and spices and it sure looks like pizza!
Pizza at Pompeii, from the BBC article linked below
When I first read this story on the BBC late Tuesday night/early Wednesday morning, I kinda went nuts in delight. I found the story all over the place, and read the offerings (the Guardian version of the story was posted here Wednesday by joe shikspack on the Evening Blues!). I mean, it's about two of my favorite things, Roman history - society - empire and pizza. So this was right up my alley! Many of the stories, such as the ones from the BBC, the Guardian, and USA Today were original, contained different commentary and different aspects of the discovery and were informative. And then I found a series of stories on several American websites, which were always the same (the stories), with something in them that was wrong, and it just really bothered me.
The story was from AP news. It was repeated on Huffpost, NPR, ABC News and various other places which I didn't bother to copy and paste. The thing that is wrong is the last part of this: 'Tomatoes were only introduced to Europe from the Americas a few centuries ago, and some histories have it that the discovery of mozzarella led directly to the invention of pizza in nearby Naples in the 1700s.' (quoted in every version of the AP article).
So now, I have to add another favorite thing to this discussion, Cheese! Basically, mozzarella cheese! I love cheese, and made all kinds of cheese for ages from our own goat milk and spent all those years learning about the history and development of different kinds of cheese to teach others. Mozzarella was one of these cheeses.
But first, what does the last part of the quoted sentence even mean? 'some histories have it that the discovery of mozzarella led directly to the invention of pizza in nearby Naples in the 1700s.' 'Histories' instead of maybe, historians? 'Discovery of Mozzarella' in the 1700s? Who discovered mozzarella? How do you discover something people have been making and eating for centuries before? The first firm mention of mozzarella in writing was in Scappi's cookbook from the 1570s. Before that, mozzarella, or 'mozza' was mentioned in a reference from the 12th century about pilgrims to Campania getting mozza and bread from a monastery. Perhaps the AP piece is just modern AI writing at its finest? Or modern automated translating (like from google) at its best?
I'm gonna finish with a quote from the Guardian article linked above by a pizza maker from Naples: '...Gino Sorbillo, owner of one of the oldest pizzerias in Naples, who is convinced that the image in the Pompeii fresco is, in fact, a pizza. “In ancient Pompeii we already knew that there were forms of flatbread, made with grains, water, salt and maybe beer as a leavening agent,” he said. “Then they might have topped it with vegetables or the fish of the day … it was an ancient form of pizza.”'
Yep.
Something Really Fun and Cute:
The beeb has a great video of a chimp allowed outside for the first time in her life. She's 28 years old. I think she says, 'Oh, Wow!', at least it looks like she says that, after she gets encouragement and a hug from the alpha male and looks around.
So, thanks for reading and here's the open thread - and remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough, so tell us about where you're diving (or dining if it's about pizza!)!
Comments
Happy Thursday!
Hope everyone is doing well and the end of June is going smoothly. Had a busy weekend and week myself, lots of work outside. It's good!
I missed some comments from last week and wanted to let people know that Purry, the chicken who sleeps on the goat hay rick at night, is an Araucana. This is a breed from Chile. She lays blue shelled eggs. And they are very nice indeed. We also have Ameraucana and Easter Egger chickens. We like the colored eggs!
So what's up with all of you today?
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Good morning Sima, checked out the pizza article myself.
So, no tomato. So what? Does pizza require tomato? where does that leave pesto pizza and pizza bianco? Is bianco the "authentic" original? And what of the dough? Is "flatbread pizza" redundant?
Some contend that one can put anything in a taco and similarly one can put anything on a pizza, and why not? IMO there is far too much ritual surrounding various edibles. Though a really great exemplar of this or that edible is worth seeking out and savoring, on a day-to-day basis, there is plenty of room for experimentation and playing around with variations and ingredients, IMO.
So, what REALLY is pizza?
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Love it! What is a pizza??
Who gets to define it? I dunno. I guess maybe I know what isn't a pizza. An ice cream cone isn't a pizza. Right? I dunno!!!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Roman pizza would be banned in NYC.
I am guessing the Romans used wood or coal fired stoves to make their pizzas. Gotta melt that cheese. Romans would be aghast at NYC.
Mama Mia! NYC rules crack down on coal-, wood-fired pizzerias — must cut carbon emissions up to 75%
Is it really carbon emissions or limited particulate pollution. Somebody claimed that John Kerry's private jet emits more carbon than all the stoves in NYC. Have no idea if that is true.
I take these sorts of things as the elites pushing around and beating up on those really without power, because they do not have the power to push back. Outlawing private jets would tremendously reduce carbon emission. But would put organizations in direct
collusionconflict with the elites. Guess who wins. First ban all private jets in NY, MA, and NJ before the pizza places.Limit particulate emissions, I guess
But, I dunno. I could see them saying the wood fire stoves have to have filters, etc on their chimneys. That makes sense. But otherwise? Sheez. I think those Canadian wildfires need filters too.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Good morning...
Been out mowing and my fan belt gave up the ghost. Now I'll have to go the town and get another in order to mow again tomorrow morning. Today and tomorrow are scorchers here...pushing 100. Always something with a 60 year old tractor.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Ack, pushing 100!
Ack. I'd melt. We are gonna be in the low to mid 80's next week. That's melty enough for me. I hope to get the field mowing done first, but I bet I won't. Kudos to you for working on the 60 year old tractor. Ours is about 30 years old, maybe 25. It's a solid, dependable, sturdy old thing. Needs a new seat though, and it's constantly dripping a wee tiny bit of fuel. Like... a drop an hour. But enough to make me smell it!
Hope you get some cool sessions and the tractor fixing goes well.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
This is not the weather forecast that many want to hear.
Reminds me of the heat and smoke..
we've gotten here in the PacNW in recent years. It's awful. And the weather was awful too. The skies were surreal, so orange and pink. So weird. So, I think everyone in America has experienced this recently in the last few years. Suckage!
And that's definitely not the weather forecast people want to hear, right?
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I wonder if this episode of Joe spinning a yarn will be
fact checked?
He's such a liar...
Such a liar. But he's old and demented and the leader of our country. What do we want? Truth? Honesty? Realism? Not in politics now, no way! Heh.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
That's not pizza.
That's an improperly folded calzone.
I love veggie calzones cheese and tomato free.
Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.
I love cheese, I do love cheese...
But a veggie calzone is nice too! Yum!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I think it is a pizza.
After all, pizza is a crust of bread topped with whatever you desire. If this pre-dates tomatoes, it is just a pizza without an ingredient. A friend had lots of figs from her tree one year. Lots.
She researched ways to cook them.
One thing she came up with was fig pizza. We had dinner on one, and it was delicious.
Long day in trial, still packing this evening for vacation. Just wanted the fig pizza idea to fit in somewhere, and this OT was the "where".
Headed to the Gulf for a few days. Got minimal packing yet to do.
I am so ready! I will be on the beach, hoping for a dolphin sighting tomorrow evening!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Fig pizza?
Why not? Like you said, it would be good!
I hope the packing went well after the long court day. And I bet the gulf vacation is gonna be good! Beach and dolphins. I would love it
Have fun!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Sublime
Fig pizza with blue cheese!
Enjoy the beach and hopefully cooling waters.
It was
DELICIOUS.
If ham and pineapple work, why not figs?
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981