Open Thread on Race and Propaganda

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 5:26am

Something Old, Something New will be back next week. I want to use my Open Thread this week to discuss an uncomfortable development in the ways we talk about race.

It seems that it's time to bring out this old speech, which has been in danger of being reduced to a cliche that people repeat but pay no real attention to:

I'm aware that my essays often suffer from TLDR, so I will only lift a couple of quotations from King's speech--even though, like Cornel West, I love King's use of the metaphor of the bad check best of the entire speech, and I'm leaving that out. But what's relevant to my essay today is this:

The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. And they have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have been noticing lately that there is a tendency to discuss race as if you have to choose between the slogans "Black Lives Matter" and "All Lives Matter," as if you either climb on board the identity politics train, which lately appears to be driven by Joe McCarthy, or you "transcend" race in favor of a justice movement based on humanity.

People are being encouraged--have been encouraged since at least the beginning of the Democratic primaries last year--to take up one of three positions:

1)The current SJW identity politics position:

Black people are always more credible than white people (except when they choose to criticize the establishment rather than one political party)

Women are always more credible than men (except when they don't support Hillary Clinton)

LGBT people are always more credible than straight people or cis-gendered people (except when they remember that Hillary Clinton didn't support marriage equality until 2013)

Anybody who is white, male, or straight can have a pre-fab hatchet job done on them any time they bring up a point that is detrimental to the establishment, and a chorus of support will go up online from people who claim to be, and sometimes actually are, Black, Latino, immigrant, LGBT, or female (given the nature of sockpuppetry and paid trolls, it could be a white male cis-gendered native-born intern working for a DC consulting firm running twenty Black or LGBT identities at any given time. When there's no video component to the post, we just don't know.) When necessary, supplement with a few famous Black people or Latino people or LGBT people in front of cameras presenting establishment talking points. All accusations of racism, sexism, or other prejudice are pre-assumed to be true.*

*Accusations of racism or other prejudice against Clintons and Bushes will be, of course, null and void upon expression. This forms a subset of the principle that all accusations against Clintons and Bushes are null and void upon expression.

2)The current alt-right position: SJWs are being unfair to us (often true). They are making baseless character attacks on us (also often true, since many of the attacks are being made, not in response to actual wrongdoing by right-wing white people, of which I'd think there was plenty to be going on with, but instead in response to demographic identity.) So fuck them. All accusations of racism, sexism, or other prejudice are pre-assumed to be false. (This is why attacking demographic identity rather than specific wrongdoing is pernicious.)

3)A current position gaining traction with dissidents: We really need to transcend race and advocate for justice for all humanity. All Lives Matter. Accusations of racism, sexism, or other prejudice will be weighed and analyzed to see if they have a basis in fact, and everyone will be treated as if the histories which brought them to this point are equal.

It's the third position I want to address--since the first two positions are obviously crap designed by DC to set as many Americans at each other's throats as possible while getting attention off of the terrible crimes committed by the rich and powerful.

May I present IDIC for your contemplation?

Like King's speech, this is also Something Old:

IDIC stands for Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. It's relevant to the discussion because what really needs to be grasped here, what has needed to be grasped since the 1500s and the beginning of European colonization of this hemisphere and its resulting invention of an expanded trade in African slaves, is this:

Humanity comes in different colors. Humanity speaks different languages. Humanity has different religions. Most importantly, humanity has different histories.

You don't have to choose between focusing on humanity and focusing on blackness, because Black people are already human. You don't have to "transcend race." Humanity comes in many races. These races often have different cultures and different histories. The very idea that you have to choose between a Blackness-based and a humanity-based politics is a problem to begin with.

The reason "All Lives Matter" is offensive is that the slogan erases the difference in the histories of white and black people in this country. That is no small thing, and no movement for justice can afford it.

But that doesn't mean you have to become a McCarthyite social justice warrior.

What's good about the third position I listed above is its desire to find out whether accusations are true, based on evidence, and then proceed accordingly. It doesn't rely on groupthink and team loyalty as the two great pillars of its ethical temple. It isn't lazy, sloppy, or prone to being picked up and used by any passing political interest that needs a way to gin up temporary credibility, on both sides of the supposed party divide. It's a lot more difficult to co-opt a mind intent on finding out the accurate truth and ascribing responsibility to those actually responsible--which would be 1)those who choose to commit atrocious acts, and 2)those who have power to end those acts who choose not to.

But it would be a great shame if that good were inextricably wedded to a notion of "transcending race." "Transcending race" implies that you have to get beyond blackness in order to pursue justice, and that being human is somehow a different thing from being black. And all the good of the rational, humanistic position #3 will be spilled down the drain if rational humanism decides that history isn't a thing and the past doesn't affect the present.

Instead of the above three positions, I recommend IDIC as the ethical foundation of any justice movement addressing inequalities and specific oppressions based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, country of origin, or any other condition one is born into which the human race has made into an artificial justification for behaving badly.

I leave you with an example of IDIC in action. Why is this hard?

Is it that we don't want to learn everyone's names?

Tags:

Open Thread

race

Propaganda

Martin Luther King

Vote

Comments

Submitted by ggersh on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 8:11am

amerika, land of the free

amerika, land of the free, or so we are told.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/08/16/if-you-fire-a-fascist-youre-a-fa...

The American workplace is a fascist state. It’s time to overthrow the millions of little Hitlers who think the fact that issuing a paycheck turns their employees into slaves subject to thought control.

Just don’t talk about this around anyone who knows where you work.

—

I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish

"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"

Heard from Margaret Kimberley

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 8:50am

Good morning, all.

Interested to see your responses.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by gjohnsit on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 11:34am

The concept of white privilege was weaponized

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
I've resented the idea of white privilege for a while, but I only realized after reading this, that what I really resented was how it is being used by liberals, not the concept itself. The guy who invented the term had something very different in mind, something I can agree with.

Writing for the John Brown Commemoration Committee in 1965, Theodore Allen innovated the discourse on white skin privilege. In 1967 he co-authored “White Blindspot” and in 1969 published “Can White Workers Radicals Be Radicalized?”
...
Unlike liberal interpretations of white privilege used to attack dissent, Allen’s understanding was that white privileges are contrary to the long-term political and material interest of white people. The benefits, bribes, and appeals to white people do have a real value, which is one reason they work, but that value is far less than the value that would be produced by class solidarity and cross-racial action to raise wages, win political power and establish justice.

In 1969 Allen wrote:

The white-skin privileges of the masses of the white workers do not permit them nor their children to escape into the ranks of the propertied classes. In the South, where the white-skin privilege has always been most emphasized and formal, the white workers have fared worse than white workers in the rest of the country. The white-skin privilege for the mass is the trustee’s privilege, not release from jail, merely freedom of movement within it and a diet more nearly adequate. It is not that the ordinary white worker gets more than he must have to support himself and his family, but that the black worker gets less than the white worker. The result is that by thus inducing, reinforcing and perpetuating racist attitudes on the part of the white workers, the present-day power-masters get the political support of the rank-and-file of the white workers in critical situations, and without having to share with them their super profits in the slightest measure…[2] [emphasis added]

To this day, “The white-skin privilege for the mass is the trustee’s privilege not release from jail…” Some of the prisoners can control other prisoners but never challenge the warden.

Submitted by strollingone on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 1:58pm

The single most telling thing about this aspect of

@gjohnsit the entire paradox is what a lousy deal the Southern whites made for themselves. The short stories of William Faulkner make gjohnsit's point crystal clear. The deal that they made defines them and says more about them than anything else does or could. I was born in the South and grew up some there. My parents were the ONLY ones from either side to ever leave; my two brothers and I are the ONLY ones that don't live there now. Make no mistake about it: the deal was made for good and all down to the seventh generation. I am a deal breaker and treated as such.

#2
I've resented the idea of white privilege for a while, but I only realized after reading this, that what I really resented was how it is being used by liberals, not the concept itself. The guy who invented the term had something very different in mind, something I can agree with.

Writing for the John Brown Commemoration Committee in 1965, Theodore Allen innovated the discourse on white skin privilege. In 1967 he co-authored “White Blindspot” and in 1969 published “Can White Workers Radicals Be Radicalized?”
...

Unlike liberal interpretations of white privilege used to attack dissent, Allen’s understanding was that white privileges are contrary to the long-term political and material interest of white people. The benefits, bribes, and appeals to white people do have a real value, which is one reason they work, but that value is far less than the value that would be produced by class solidarity and cross-racial action to raise wages, win political power and establish justice.

In 1969 Allen wrote:

The white-skin privileges of the masses of the white workers do not permit them nor their children to escape into the ranks of the propertied classes. In the South, where the white-skin privilege has always been most emphasized and formal, the white workers have fared worse than white workers in the rest of the country. The white-skin privilege for the mass is the trustee’s privilege, not release from jail, merely freedom of movement within it and a diet more nearly adequate. It is not that the ordinary white worker gets more than he must have to support himself and his family, but that the black worker gets less than the white worker. The result is that by thus inducing, reinforcing and perpetuating racist attitudes on the part of the white workers, the present-day power-masters get the political support of the rank-and-file of the white workers in critical situations, and without having to share with them their super profits in the slightest measure…[2] [emphasis added]

To this day, “The white-skin privilege for the mass is the trustee’s privilege not release from jail…” Some of the prisoners can control other prisoners but never challenge the warden.

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 2:16pm

@gjohnsit This is excellent work.

@gjohnsit This is excellent work.
Maybe we really should have a speech or article of the week series, where we take good work from the past and discuss it. Because the politics of the present are based on accepting a mutilation of the political imagination.

#2
I've resented the idea of white privilege for a while, but I only realized after reading this, that what I really resented was how it is being used by liberals, not the concept itself. The guy who invented the term had something very different in mind, something I can agree with.

Writing for the John Brown Commemoration Committee in 1965, Theodore Allen innovated the discourse on white skin privilege. In 1967 he co-authored “White Blindspot” and in 1969 published “Can White Workers Radicals Be Radicalized?”
...

Unlike liberal interpretations of white privilege used to attack dissent, Allen’s understanding was that white privileges are contrary to the long-term political and material interest of white people. The benefits, bribes, and appeals to white people do have a real value, which is one reason they work, but that value is far less than the value that would be produced by class solidarity and cross-racial action to raise wages, win political power and establish justice.

In 1969 Allen wrote:

The white-skin privileges of the masses of the white workers do not permit them nor their children to escape into the ranks of the propertied classes. In the South, where the white-skin privilege has always been most emphasized and formal, the white workers have fared worse than white workers in the rest of the country. The white-skin privilege for the mass is the trustee’s privilege, not release from jail, merely freedom of movement within it and a diet more nearly adequate. It is not that the ordinary white worker gets more than he must have to support himself and his family, but that the black worker gets less than the white worker. The result is that by thus inducing, reinforcing and perpetuating racist attitudes on the part of the white workers, the present-day power-masters get the political support of the rank-and-file of the white workers in critical situations, and without having to share with them their super profits in the slightest measure…[2] [emphasis added]

To this day, “The white-skin privilege for the mass is the trustee’s privilege not release from jail…” Some of the prisoners can control other prisoners but never challenge the warden.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by The Voice In th... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 8:55am

So white lives don't matter?

Only black lives matter. They matter more than white lives. That's what the left stands for today. Anti-white discrimination. I just broke from Booman Tribune after many years because of this. I deny that my whiteness makes me second class. I deny that the discriminatory actions of other white men in the past OR PRESENT reflect on me in any way. ONLY my actions and POSSIBLY the actions of my direct ancestors reflect on me. I refuse to accept responsibility for slavery or Bull Connor or Charlottesville.

I refuse to be associated with the racist Left any more.

Goodbye. Please delete my user ID.

—

I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

Submitted by TheOtherMaven on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 9:03am

Sorry you misunderstood the diary

@The Voice In the Wilderness
Hope you will re-read it when in a less confrontational mood, and reconsider.

Otherwise, good luck to you.

—

There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 9:11am

@The Voice In the Wilderness Seriously, Voice? You

@The Voice In the Wilderness Seriously, Voice? You really believe I believe that?

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by dkmich on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 11:07am

You are not alone

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

The good thing about this place is that differing opinions are permitted. I happen to agree with you, and I am working on a post that will say that.

—

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 11:14am

@dkmich The only problem I

@dkmich The only problem I have with Voice's comment is that s/he is reacting to something I didn't say.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by lizzyh7 on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 12:19pm

Par for the course perhaps.

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal Seems like we can't even discuss racism now without one "side" or the other jumping to conclusions that somehow they're being personally attacked. This is how our owners rule us, divide and conquer is a multipurpose tool, and any little crack is to be exploited ad infinitum.

—

Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

Submitted by mimi on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 2:01pm

when it's ok to feel personally attacked or not - that's the ...

@lizzyh7
... question.

When you are involved in the discussions about racial inequalities (or gender inequalities), you know for yourself that you, by biology, are on one side or the other, (imagine how difficult it is to handle the issue, when you are by your biology on BOTH sides). So, it is a common reaction by the one, who listens to the critical attacks of one race (or gender) on the other race (or gender) in general political terms, to take it personally.

Is that ok? I know it's hard to not feel offended personally, but that feeling of being offended, as humane and common a reaction that is, is a reaction that I believe one needs to try to overcome. The line between an ideological or political criticism or attack is usually never meant to be a personal attack, but the line is often not clearly recognizable. The ideological attack is therefor felt by the one, who knows about himself to be part of the ideologically attacked group, as a personal attack, though it was not.

I think to be aware of what is really a personal attack and what is an ideological, political one, is really important.

—

https://www.euronews.com/live

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 2:16pm

attacks

@mimi

I think to be aware of what is really a personal attack and what is an ideological, political one, is really important.

And even more so when it's not an attack at all, like this Essay.

CSTMS is being blamed for something she not only didn't do, but was writing against doing.

Everyone should examine situations with maximum care before deciding to take offense. Taking offense by default cheapens its value, and makes it less effective when umbrage really is called for.

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 2:37pm

@thanatokephaloides Yeah,

@thanatokephaloides Yeah, actually (thanks for noticing).

I actually thought I would be accused of being racist against Black people, because I'm more critical in this essay of position #1 than position #2. This disturbed me, because I actually see both as equally problematic.

What I was trying to get across: when you accuse somebody of racism based on something that has nothing to do with racism, and get away with it either because of your own status as a POC or because you are online and have a gang of trolls and bullies to echo your every word, you pour fuel on the fire of the efforts to discredit the fight against racism. It's like if I, as a woman, accused a man of trying to feel me up in the mailroom when what he actually did was smile and say good morning. That would be one of the worst things I could do as a feminist--in fact, it would be unconscionable--because that makes it harder for every actual sexual harassment victim to make their case. When you add the Internet, with its speed and capacity for dissemination, to the mix, you make the problem even worse. There's probably lots of people now who believe that anti-racism is just a bunch of lying shit, who didn't necessarily believe it before.

Of course, the answer to that is that POC know what racism is, and I don't, because no white person could. But here's a list of some of the examples of things I've been called racist for doing:

Opposing NSA surveillance

Opposing drone assassinations

Supporting Social Security

Asking people who called Bernie Sanders racist why

Anyway, ironically, I got called out for being racist against white people. Ya gotta laugh.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by mimi on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 5:35pm

of course ...

@thanatokephaloides @thanatokephaloides (edited one offensive word)

this essay is not an attack at all ... but you can't help people from wanting to see attacks everywhere around them, just so for them to feel right about their own povs.

Even a little one-paragraph non-essay of Armando on TOP is so ridiculous an attempt for him to do his job making money for his boss, that I just wonder, why people take the time to read it at all and even dwell into the comment section. See, if it comes to mental health, your own comes first.

In the end nobody likes to read and listen anything anymore and ignore all that what they originally might have wanted to fight for and change politically. Very smart indeed./s

Gone fishing... bye.

—

https://www.euronews.com/live

Submitted by lizzyh7 on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 4:31pm

Great comment mimi.

@mimi

—

Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 2:18pm

@lizzyh7 That style of

@lizzyh7 That style of conversation is apparently even infecting higher education. I read recently a professor saying that, instead of people beginning with "Here's what I believe, and now I'm gonna make my case," they instead begin with "It offends me that you said that."

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by dkmich on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 12:23pm

I was responding to what he thought, not what you did.

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

It is amazing how difficult good communication is.

—

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Submitted by mimi on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 1:14pm

amen /nt

@The Voice In the Wilderness @dkmich

—

https://www.euronews.com/live

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 2:41pm

@dkmich Oh--was your

@dkmich Oh--was your comment in response to Voice's?

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 11:14am

@dkmich Thanks, btw.

@dkmich Thanks, btw.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 9:13am

@The Voice In the Wilderness Before you decide to GBCW

@The Voice In the Wilderness Before you decide to GBCW, perhaps you'd show me the place where I said:

White lives don't matter
Whites should be second-class
I'm responsible for racist acts that happened before I was born

You also conveniently ignored the places where I, quite extensively, criticized the very position you say I take.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 9:17am

@The Voice In the Wilderness

@The Voice In the Wilderness
A few quotations for you which you apparently missed:

The current alt-right position: SJWs are being unfair to us (often true). They are making baseless character attacks on us (also often true, since many of the attacks are being made, not in response to actual wrongdoing by right-wing white people, of which I'd think there was plenty to be going on with, but instead in response to demographic identity.

(This is why attacking demographic identity rather than specific wrongdoing is pernicious.)

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by ghotiphaze on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 9:39am

I didn't know quite how to respond

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal to Voice's comment. One one hand, I find it amusing Voice took such umbrage. On the other hand, to go all pro-pharma, they need to double dose on their Xanax. On the gripping hand, I'm sorry centuries of privilege wasn't enough for them to feel capable of competing on on equal footing.
OK, that was my snark/sarcastic/tongue in cheek comment.
BTW, those t-shirts with All Lives Matter, on the back is written But Rich, White Republican Lives Matter Most of All.

—

There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 10:00am

@ghotiphaze Given that Hillary

@ghotiphaze Given that Hillary herself was an "All Lives Matter" kinda gal before BLM criticized Bernie Sanders (at which point she immediately rebranded herself as pro-BLM), I don't doubt you're right about what's on the back of those t-shirts.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by dkmich on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 12:24pm

IMO, Hillary is neither BLM or ALM

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

This is an issue of so little import to her, she doesn't even think or care about it.

—

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Submitted by Steven D on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 1:41pm

She is a

@dkmich My Life Matters kinda person.

—

"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott

Submitted by dkmich on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 1:46pm

What a great label for her Steven

@Steven D

I am glad that so many people of color are waking up to the manipulation and deceit of the Democratic Party. Poor, working, and black people have always voted for Democrats and are expected to vote for Democrats. Not anymore.

—

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 2:42pm

@dkmich It was all

@dkmich It was all marketing.
That's what disgusts me most about it.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Meteor Man on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 9:39am

Unconscious Misunderstanding

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

I am baffled how anyone could actually read your essay and find "white lives don't matter" anywhere. Quite bizarre. Prejudice runs deep.

—

"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 10:06am

@Meteor Man We are living in a

@Meteor Man We are living in a time when if you don't echo the correct boilerplate rhetoric for any particular side, it is automatically assumed that you are on the other side.

I'm refusing to side. Instead, I'm analyzing the facts on the ground as best I can, with reference to the ethics I was brought up with, which probably aren't perfect, but which are head-and-shoulders above what is in common circulation as ethics today.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 2:43pm

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal Maybe I should

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal Maybe I should start calling myself The Unaligned Succubus.

Let's see how many people get the reference...

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by ghotiphaze on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 9:40am

Oh, yeah, forgot

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal You have no need to apologize. Ya did good!

—

There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 10:08am

@ghotiphaze Thanks, ghotiphaze.

@ghotiphaze Thanks, ghotiphaze.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by pro left on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 10:52am

I agree with @ghotiphaze

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal You did a great job. There are people out there who just don't get it and there are people who don't want to get it. There are quite a few of these in my circle of family and friends (actually most of them ) I don't waste much energy on them anymore, however I still call them out when they are making idiotic statements about black lives and white lives.

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 11:17am

@pro left Thanks, pro left.

@pro left Thanks, pro left.

There can be honest disagreements among people of good will, of course, but I think it benefits us all to dispense with pre-fab positions crafted by some political consultant and marketed to people by raking up their pain repeatedly. Also, I think it's a good idea to respond to what people actually say, instead of using them as a kind of weird stand-in for something else you don't like.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by eyo on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 10:29am

"Please delete my user ID." Is it even possible?

@The Voice In the Wilderness I think you should keep talking here but also support your right to disappear if you want to. What are the rules about that at c99? Is it technically possible, or a big pain in the ass, or maybe it goes against the moderators philosophy? I don't know, never bothered to check.

thanks

Submitted by JtC on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 10:58am

No...

@eyo
Voice in the Wilderness' ID will not be deleted nor will he be banned.

When an account is deleted all the comments in the user's essays are deleted also. The replies to any comments made by the user are also deleted leaving huge holes in the comment threads leaving them incoherent. Deleting comments and replies of other users is not fair to them, thus accounts are left intact.

I initially did delete accounts when it was requested and then was subsequently accused of censorship by those who had their comments deleted with the users material. It's a matter of fairness to all.

Submitted by Bisbonian on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 1:17pm

...and you do a damn good job of it.

@JtC

—

"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

Submitted by Creosote. on Thu, 08/17/2017 - 1:23pm

Good call.

@JtC
The door to come in isn't locked, just like the door to go out isn't.

Submitted by Snode on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 10:36am

Don't go

@The Voice In the Wilderness I know you feel how you feel, I feel it too, but it's not what you think, at least not here.

Submitted by JtC on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 11:39am

Hey Voice in the Wilderness...

@The Voice In the Wilderness
The struggle is not horizontal, it's vertical.

Submitted by gulfgal98 on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 1:35pm

Binigo! (n/t)

@JtC

—

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 2:22pm

Give that Conqueroo a Marijuana!

@JtC

Hey Voice in the Wilderness... The struggle is not horizontal, it's vertical.

Give that Conqueroo a Marijuana! (I live in Colorado; I can say that!)

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by ghotiphaze on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 4:58pm

You can say that anywhere!

@thanatokephaloides You're just able to DO it in Colorado.

—

There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

Submitted by WIProgressive on Thu, 08/17/2017 - 10:45am

Ya, lucky Colorado Bastards!! (Said with love)

@ghotiphaze

—

O.k. When is the next meeting for the revolution?
-FuturePassed on Sunday, November 25, 2018 10:22 p.m.

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Thu, 08/17/2017 - 4:10pm

@WIProgressive That's probably

@WIProgressive That's probably why they're one of 7 or 8 states that believed, in the last general election, that it was better to support one of the candidates than not to vote.

Apparently if Not Voting were a candidate, it would have won all but ME, NH, RI, MD, WI, IA, IL and CO.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Thu, 08/17/2017 - 4:11pm

@WIProgressive Hey, why did y

@WIProgressive Hey, why did y'all think voting was better than not voting? Is it the loathsomeness of your governor?

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Thu, 08/17/2017 - 4:11pm

@WIProgressive No, it can't be

@WIProgressive No, it can't be that--y'all went Red.

Uh...I'm stumped here. Help a sister out?

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Cassiodorus on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 12:08pm

Black lives matter --

@The Voice In the Wilderness because so many people in power think they don't. That should be obvious by now.

—

The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 2:54pm

@Cassiodorus Well, right.

@Cassiodorus @Cassiodorus Well, right.

If I had taken another tack, I could have written about the history of the phrase "Black Lives Matter," and what it was originally saying, which has all been a bit lost in all the subsequent BS. When you put it in its original context, the problem with shifting to "All Lives Matter" is pretty clear to me. All people weren't being shot as often as all other people. The choice to shoot some more than others appeared, and to some extent was, racially motivated.

IMO, though, the entire structure of the discussion could use an upgrade. The obvious marketing crap injected into the discussion from on high needs to be tossed, and the focus put on the actual wrongdoing, not big categories of people who may or may not be more or less credible depending on what color their skin is and how they vote.

Instead of determining credibility automatically through race, partisan affiliation, and willingness to recite certain talking points, how about we determine credibility by using reason, logic, and facts to determine what is actually true about the wrongdoing, where and when it's actually happening, and how, and how many are responsible, and proceed from there?

EDIT: This is what I would do if it were my movement. It's not, so I'm not. I've got no authority whatsoever over Black Lives Matter, and no desire to have any. I have my opinion about how that fight is going, and the choices the movement (maybe movements?) has made. My possession of an opinion shouldn't be taken to mean I should choose what BLM is.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Snode on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 9:39am

I think I see what you are saying

I was puzzled by the reaction to "transcending race". I'm kind of old and the concept is an old one too. When I ran into a quote that used it, it sounded off to me, but more that it was archaic, old fashioned. Babylon 5 is a really, really good example. It's not about the people on Babylon 5 having to give up, transcending, forgetting, denying who they are. It's about Babylon 5, as a place, where people can be as they are, as equals. It's the place, the real estate, and the place, in your mind, that transcends race, religion. I think that was the hope for the United Nations, too.
The foundation of America is it's mythology, and at the heart of it is the Declaration of Independence "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights", it's the one thing that sticks with everyone, even through the cynicism and hypocrisy. It's what happens when people believe the myth so much it becomes truth.
There is no denying the bad treatment of African, and Native Americans, there will be no forgetting. They have been forced to kneel, time and again, but in their hearts they never did, and never will, and in time, that will be part of the strength of America.

I did this TLDR (had to look it up) myself to eventually say, you're right. I looked up "transcending race" and the meaning has shifted from what I just went on and on about,to a person (can, should?) transcend his race,or color, as if there is something that needs to change, or could change, or is wrong, or be ignored. It sounds like the old "he's a credit to his race" slur, and the "colorblind" thing, pretend you can't see, and the other person should, too.

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 10:10am

This is brilliant analysis, and I hadn't thought of it:

@Snode It's not about the people on Babylon 5 having to give up, transcending, forgetting, denying who they are. It's about Babylon 5, as a place, where people can be as they are, as equals. It's the place, the real estate, and the place, in your mind, that transcends race, religion.

Apparently, the Babylon 5 metaphor meant more than I realized it did (consciously, anyway). I love how metaphors do that!

Thanks for this excellent point.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Bisbonian on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 1:22pm

Right on!

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

—

"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

Submitted by HenryAWallace on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 9:53am

Hey, CStMS. Thanks for the essay. You always have such an

interesting, thoughtful and intelligent take and I am always happy to read it. Don't let anyone or anything discourage you from expressing yourself.

Submitted by ghotiphaze on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 10:00am

Yeah, what Henry said! nt

@HenryAWallace

—

There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 10:11am

@HenryAWallace Thanks, Henry.

@HenryAWallace Thanks, Henry.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by enhydra lutris on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 9:58am

Good morning, CSTMS. Thanks for this. Especially for

Humanity comes in different colors. Humanity speaks different languages. Humanity has different religions. Most importantly, humanity has different histories.

Words of wisdom:

There is a "workbook" I keep planning to use as the basis for a column. It contains some good ideas for combatting all "isms", and for doing it all of the time on all fronts. It needs to be read with that in mind and it needs winnowing --
http://www.resourcesharingproject.org/sites/resourcesharingproject.org/f...

—

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 10:18am

@enhydra lutris Wow. Amazing the shit he

@enhydra lutris Wow. Amazing the shit he just said about the economic basis of racism and the use of economic weapons to combat it.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 10:26am

@enhydra lutris This is a remarkable

@enhydra lutris This is a remarkable speech, and we should all listen to it. I wouldn't mind changing my OT to be a weekly Great Speech from the Past, but I think fewer people would enjoy that.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by mimi on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 3:48pm

excellent link - that workbook

@enhydra lutris
I actually wouldd need and use. Thanks.

—

https://www.euronews.com/live

Submitted by Meteor Man on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 10:28am

Outstanding Article!

And right on point. In The New Jim Crow Michelle Alexander's emphasized your point as well, so you are in good company. King recognized that poor whites we're economic victims of cultural and racial forces that political and economic elites used to manipulate them. Nothing has changed.

Alexander built on MLK's observation to point out that poor southern whites we're also victims of America's racial caste system, and poor whites are also victims of mass incarceration.

Thanks for a thoughtful continuation of the conversation we must have.

—

"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 10:40am

@Meteor Man Thanks, Meteor Man. I

@Meteor Man Thanks, Meteor Man. I think it's important we don't allow pre-fab dichotomies to structure this discussion. It's important, too, that whatever discourse we create to replace those dichotomies should involve rigorous logic, scrupulous adherence to fact, and mindfulness of the history that brought us here.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by gulfgal98 on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 1:17pm

Not sure if this comment

@Meteor Man @Meteor Man is in the right place, but MM's comment above triggered me to post it here. I am firing this off the top of my head and I may not be as articulate as I should as a result.

There are many reasons for racism in this country, but it is my belief that our economic system is one of the prime reasons. Our capitalist economic system is based upon idea of meritocracy which means that there are winners and losers. That idea has been drilled into our heads from a very young age. Everything is about competition and therefore life is winnowed down to who becomes a winner which is often at the expense of others, who are then seen as the losers.

Under slavery, black slaves imported from Africa were already designated as the losers by virtue of them being slaves. Once slavery was abolished, society set forth other ways to maintain the former slaves as the losers in our economic system. The same with native Americans, but for other reasons. They lost to the white men during the colonization of this country. So their loser status was also deemed necessary to perpetuate.

With the loser status automatically assigned to entire groups of people via their race or even ethnic origin, the system has been deeply ingrained in the American psyche. Assigning an inferior status to human beings based upon race or religion or other characteristic is a form of dehumanization and makes it easier for those in the dominant race/religion etc. to justify our racism.

This is exactly why the idea that Black Lives Matter is so important. Those of us of the dominant race must humble our selves enough so we can try to begin to understand the depth of the pain that racism has had upon our black brothers and sisters, as well as our native American population which is often forgotten by so many of us.

I hope my rambling makes sense here.

Thank you for this incredibly thoughtful and terrific essay, CSTMS.

—

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 2:58pm

@gulfgal98 I agree with all of

@gulfgal98 I agree with all of this. Capitalism requires throwaway people, complete with an attached set of truisms about why it's OK to throw them away.

I'd expand what you said to the Caribbean as well, and possibly across the whole hemisphere.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 2:58pm

@gulfgal98 And you're welcome!

@gulfgal98 And you're welcome!

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Meteor Man on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 3:06pm

Precisely!

@gulfgal98

The criticism of "the white race" should be more accurately directed at economic elites, who in America are almost universally filthy rich white dudes.

There were a small number of black plantation owners in the pre Civil War south who were black and owned black slaves. Slavery was an economic system as much as a racial caste system. The Wall Street and Financial Racketeers are the real enemy, not white people in general.

—

"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Thu, 08/17/2017 - 4:13pm

@Meteor Man This is one of the

@Meteor Man This is one of the things that makes the recent divorce of economics from racism drive me crazy.

Why do they think slavery was instituted in this hemisphere in the first place?

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by mhagle on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 10:30am

IDIC stands for Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

IDIC stands for Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

I like that. Thanks for the essay. Important stuff to ponder.

—

Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

Submitted by studentofearth on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 10:39am

Affiliating an individual with a specific viewpoint or group

provides a choke point for manipulation.

People are being encouraged--have been encouraged since at least the beginning of the Democratic primaries last year--to take up one of three positions:

Appreciating you taking the time to showcase the three categories. It is easier for self-reflection to evaluate if one is acting on personal internalized beliefs or manipulation from an outside source for their agenda.

The irony of "political correctness" the generalized objection of a statement due to political correctness is itself in an example of political correctness.

—

Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 10:44am

Great point.

@studentofearth Affiliating an individual with a specific viewpoint or group
provides a choke point for manipulation.

Especially when those viewpoints are very much like McDonald hamburgers: pre-formed elsewhere and distributed in frozen form to hundreds of thousands of outlets, where they are subsequently cooked, rendered somewhat edible, and then baked under heat lamps for hours before they reach the individual hand, or mind.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Meteor Man on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 10:53am

California Is Number One!

California ranks No. 1 in the nation with 79 active hate groups, six of which operate in Sacramento area, according to a new report released by the Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors hate groups and extremists in the U.S.

The Sacramento Bee story:
http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article167274202.html

And hat tip to Politico, the next race riot is scheduled for August 26th in San Francisco:

San Francisco’s top political leaders piled on Tuesday in opposition to a right-wing group’s planned rally next week at Crissy Field, with Mayor Ed Lee expressing outrage that the National Park Service granted a permit for the event and House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi questioning whether it had been approved “under guidance from the White House.”

http://m.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Pelosi-asks-if-White-House-had-hand-...

—

"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

Submitted by ghotiphaze on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 11:19am

Way to go, Cali!

@Meteor Man Just spitballing, here, but would Montana and Alaska have the least number?
BTW, red cars make you drive faster.

—

There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

Submitted by Not Henry Kissinger on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 11:30am

So true:

@Meteor Man

the next race riot is scheduled for August 26th in San Francisco

The Nazis may be organizing the March but it's the Dems and the corporate media who are promoting it.

How about that title:
Furor grows over SF right-wing rally plans

And check out the pic that goes with the Chron story;

Stoking violence and censorship in the name tolerance and freedom - oh yeah, and 'safety' too.

They truly act like they WANT to spark a race riot. Either that or they're looking to start a new PPV channel.

Next week: The Klan vs. BLM in an EPIC cross burning smackdown!

The Cross at Chrissy!
Fire & Fury!

Don't miss it!

At least the comments section is fairly encouraging, with most people arguing against confrontation and thinking it's best to simply ignore the march or hold a counter march somewhere else.

Too bad the so called leadership is not nearly as reasonable and responsible as the readership.

—

The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 2:59pm

@Not Henry Kissinger The fact that they do

@Not Henry Kissinger The fact that they do that sort of shit and then act like they're the heroes is revolting.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by dkmich on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 11:22am

Who is saying this?

"everyone will be treated as if the histories which brought them to this point are equal."

Who is making that statement? Not me. This one statement is eroneous and undermines the basis of your essay. I totally agree with MLK. I don't agree with BLM, dailykos and black kos limousine liberals, or this essay.

The main point that I made and that I think generated this discussion is that ALM would have been a less divisive and therefore more pragmatic and effective name. If you are explaining, you are defending. If you are defending, you are losing.

gjohnsit has published many essays on the topic of criminal injustice that site a ton of statistics that support BLMs claims and expand on them to show that others are currently being victimized as much, and some more, as black people. These facts can be turned into an argument about how it got this way and who is the rightful victim, or they can be used to document and correct the problem.

Native Americans have a history with "the white man" in this country too, and the statistics show they are just as likely if not more likely to be shot and jailed as a black male. There is no way in hell, I am going to judge whose history is the longest, worst, or biggest hell.

Transcending race means putting the past behind you and moving on. It doesn't mean forgetting it, pretending it never happened or saying it is all okey dokey. It means putting it in the past and focusing on today and tomorrow. The anger, righteous or not, cannot be on the same level today and all the tomorrows to come. If it is, it becomes like the spouse who cheated on his/her marital vows and is still hearing about it 50 years later with the same intensity and anguish as the day it happened. We all have to give us our ghosts or stagnate and die with them.

I can't speak for you, but I am tired of the divisiveness. We will never come together until we fucking come together. We can continue to fight over what was and who did what to whom, or we can put the past in the past. I stand by my statement. BLM's approach and strategy didn't do black people or the cause any favors.

—

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 11:44am

@dkmich The reason to continue

@dkmich The reason to continue to care about past misdeeds is that there's an active legacy of them in the present, particularly in the remnants of our legal justice system.

There's a data point which seems to be true: Black people are 2.5-2.8 times more likely to be shot by cops than white people. This point has not, as far as I know, been discredited. A further study (the most recent, I think) shows that this is a consequence of Black people, particularly Black men, being stopped a great deal more often than any white person is. This data implies that, once the interaction with the police state begins, we are all in danger of being blown away--it's just that the police state tends to seek out Black people, especially Black men, at a higher rate than white people.

Interestingly, Latinos, particularly Latino men, also tend to be stopped at a much higher rate.

The LA Times tried to spin all this to mean that racism doesn't have anything to do with why cops shoot POC, but I think the simplest explanation is that the police state is potentially deadly for anybody (non-rich) who comes into contact with it, but it's also true that the police state is racist, in that it seeks out confrontations with Black and brown men.

It's what a lot of us have been saying: they don't have a problem shooting any of us, but they tend to go after Black and brown people first. The unjust violence of the police state doesn't STOP with Black people, or even POC; but it often STARTS there.

SNARK/ANGRY SATIRE BEGINS HERE

And why not, after all--a race war is very very good for MIC business, and also the business of the 1%. And if you can have a low-level race war like we've got now, why wouldn't you try to expand it and thus expand your economic and political profits? How about showing a bunch of incidents of white right-wing cops shooting unarmed Black people, and then creating a political analogy for that in our Presidential race, with each side, Black and white, apparently symbolized by one party? In other words, how about co-opting the horrific legacy of racism and using it to power both sides of a disgusting political duopoly? Let's pretend the most significant conflict going on here is between two parts of the working class, with the 1% a neutral and distant phenomenon, like the weather, and then provide politicians who supposedly represent each side of the working class, but actually represent neither (at least, I don't think Trump actually represents working-class white supremacists; I think he's tricking them.)

Most importantly, have racist oligarchs play each of these roles, Heroine and Villain, and never provide a vehicle for actual change of any kind, whether in dismantling a predator economy, its concomitant police state, or dealing with actual white supremacists in any actual concrete way.

It'll sell like hotcakes.

Except for when it doesn't.

"everyone will be treated as if the histories which brought them to this point are equal." Who is making that statement? Not me. This one statement is eroneous and undermines the basis of your essay. I totally agree with MLK. I don't agree with BLM, dailykos and black kos limousine liberals, or this essay. The main point that I made and that I think generated this discussion is that ALM would have been a less divisive and therefore more pragmatic and effective name. If you are explaining, you are defending. If you are defending, you are losing. gjohnsit has published many essays on the topic of criminal injustice that site a ton of statistics that support BLMs claims and expand on them to show that others are currently being victimized as much, and some more, as black people. These facts can be turned into an argument about how it got this way and who is the rightful victim, or they can be used to document and correct the problem. Native Americans have a history with "the white man" in this country too, and the statistics show they are just as likely if not more likely to be shot and jailed as a black male. There is no way in hell, I am going to judge whose history is the longest, worst, or biggest hell. Transcending race means putting the past behind you and moving on. It doesn't mean forgetting it, pretending it never happened or saying it is all okey dokey. It means putting it in the past and focusing on today and tomorrow. The anger, righteous or not, cannot be on the same level today and all the tomorrows to come. If it is, it becomes like the spouse who cheated on his/her marital vows and is still hearing about it 50 years later with the same intensity and anguish as the day it happened. We all have to give us our ghosts or stagnate and die with them. I can't speak for you, but I am tired of the divisiveness. We will never come together until we fucking come together. We can continue to fight over what was and who did what to whom, or we can put the past in the past. I stand by my statement. BLM's approach and strategy didn't do black people or the cause any favors.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by dkmich on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 12:09pm

Again, no one is disputing this.

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

There's a data point which seems to be true: Black people are 2.5-2.8 times more likely to be shot by cops than white people.

There are data points that show native Americans being shot in ratios equal to or greater than blacks, and the data points for the mentally ill surpass poc by leaps and bounds. I can empathize with more than one demographic at a time and acknowledge the reality of each.

Why are the statistics for black people more important than the statistics for native Americans and the mentally ill?

I repeat myself. By stubbornly insisting this was a black issue of more import than any other, what did BLM accomplish? Forget the right. The right hates them anyway. What they did was rebuff and then rebuke their allies. Is racial equality an important issue? Hell yes. More important than the bigger issue of criminal justice run amok? They apparently thought so because they didn't care who or what got heard as long as it was them.

#11 The reason to continue to care about past misdeeds is that there's an active legacy of them in the present, particularly in the remnants of our legal justice system. There's a data point which seems to be true: Black people are 2.5-2.8 times more likely to be shot by cops than white people. This point has not, as far as I know, been discredited. A further study (the most recent, I think) shows that this is a consequence of Black people, particularly Black men, being stopped a great deal more often than any white person is. This data implies that, once the interaction with the police state begins, we are all in danger of being blown away--it's just that the police state tends to seek out Black people, especially Black men, at a higher rate than white people. Interestingly, Latinos, particularly Latino men, also tend to be stopped at a much higher rate. The LA Times tried to spin all this to mean that racism doesn't have anything to do with why cops shoot POC, but I think the simplest explanation is that the police state is potentially deadly for anybody (non-rich) who comes into contact with it, but it's also true that the police state is racist, in that it seeks out confrontations with Black and brown men. It's what a lot of us have been saying: they don't have a problem shooting any of us, but they tend to go after Black and brown people first. The unjust violence of the police state doesn't STOP with Black people, or even POC; but it often STARTS there. SNARK/ANGRY SATIRE BEGINS HERE And why not, after all--a race war is very very good for MIC business, and also the business of the 1%. And if you can have a low-level race war like we've got now, why wouldn't you try to expand it and thus expand your economic and political profits? How about showing a bunch of incidents of white right-wing cops shooting unarmed Black people, and then creating a political analogy for that in our Presidential race, with each side, Black and white, apparently symbolized by one party? In other words, how about co-opting the horrific legacy of racism and using it to power both sides of a disgusting political duopoly? Let's pretend the most significant conflict going on here is between two parts of the working class, with the 1% a neutral and distant phenomenon, like the weather, and then provide politicians who supposedly represent each side of the working class, but actually represent neither (at least, I don't think Trump actually represents working-class white supremacists; I think he's tricking them.) Most importantly, have racist oligarchs play each of these roles, Heroine and Villain, and never provide a vehicle for actual change of any kind, whether in dismantling a predator economy, its concomitant police state, or dealing with actual white supremacists in any actual concrete way. It'll sell like hotcakes. Except for when it doesn't.

—

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Submitted by lizzyh7 on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 12:34pm

OK, so maybe BLM did not handle this perfectly

@dkmich but I'm sorry, to say that All Lives Matter does indeed make light of just what black people have indeed faced in this country for the last 300 years. Dred Scott? Jim Crow anyone? How about lynching? Those things were NEVER tolerated for White Lives, but they damned sure were and still are for Black ones. That, in my humble opinion, is the entire point of using the word "Black" in their name - to make people see that yes, many are indeed oppressed, but when we see daily shootings of unarmed young black CHILDREN that's one hell of a difference in a black life. It is something that is far more likely to happen to a black child than a white one, and when it happens to the white one, watch the outrage. When a black kid gets murdered in cold blood for holding a toy gun? Why, he must have done SOMETHING to make that happen to him, right? It simply cannot be that we have any bigotry in our society, can it? Sure, All lives matter, until some simply do not.

—

Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

Submitted by dkmich on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 1:43pm

It depends on the goal....

@lizzyh7

If the goal is equality - having black people get shot only as often as whites, then BLM works.

If the goal is ending cops shooting first and asking questions later, then ALM is a better name and the more allies of any and all colors the better.

Income inequality is the big villain. Any way to make a dime. In the past, it was selling people to be used as slaves so someone could make a profit. Today, it is locking people up so someone can make a profit. Imo, the big enemy isn't the right, it is the corporate Democrats and the limousine liberals that support it. The GOP wars against the other tribe. If they walk like a skunk, look like a skunk - they are easy to identify. The Democrats and their mouth pieces are wolves in sheep's clothing. They are traitors which makes them much, much worse than the right.

—

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 2:12pm

@dkmich I think it's simple.

@dkmich I think it's simple. Most Black people don't live near any large populations of indigenous people, just like most white people don't either. Meanwhile, they're being shot at. It makes sense to me that their first thought would be that Black lives didn't matter to the establishment, rather than thinking "what other oppressed minorities are being shot as often as us?"--especially since there weren't any obvious large groups of indigenous people or mentally ill people being oppressed nearby. As for mental illness, it's often invisible and highly private. Mentally ill people, as a demographic category, don't have much of a social or political group identity, and don't all belong to the same culture, speak the same language, have the same history, etc. So it's only after extreme police abuse that the families of the mentally ill are beginning to band together.

If polyamorous people were being shot at 2 1/2 times more often than monogamous people, I probably would think the establishment had it in for poly people (assuming they could identify us, which would involve some pretty creepy invasions of privacy!). I probably wouldn't think "Well, indigenous people get shot a lot too; we should make common cause with them."

Once it becomes obvious, like with Standing Rock, then, yeah, if I were in a leadership position in that movement, I'd reach out.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 11:47am

@dkmich I think of the racism

@dkmich I think of the racism that preceded this 40-year coup, and which comes from our history, metaphorically as a fast-flowing river. The neoliberal power structure and its coordinated police states are like a company that noticed the river and decided to dam it up to power its weapons factory.

"everyone will be treated as if the histories which brought them to this point are equal." Who is making that statement? Not me. This one statement is eroneous and undermines the basis of your essay. I totally agree with MLK. I don't agree with BLM, dailykos and black kos limousine liberals, or this essay. The main point that I made and that I think generated this discussion is that ALM would have been a less divisive and therefore more pragmatic and effective name. If you are explaining, you are defending. If you are defending, you are losing. gjohnsit has published many essays on the topic of criminal injustice that site a ton of statistics that support BLMs claims and expand on them to show that others are currently being victimized as much, and some more, as black people. These facts can be turned into an argument about how it got this way and who is the rightful victim, or they can be used to document and correct the problem. Native Americans have a history with "the white man" in this country too, and the statistics show they are just as likely if not more likely to be shot and jailed as a black male. There is no way in hell, I am going to judge whose history is the longest, worst, or biggest hell. Transcending race means putting the past behind you and moving on. It doesn't mean forgetting it, pretending it never happened or saying it is all okey dokey. It means putting it in the past and focusing on today and tomorrow. The anger, righteous or not, cannot be on the same level today and all the tomorrows to come. If it is, it becomes like the spouse who cheated on his/her marital vows and is still hearing about it 50 years later with the same intensity and anguish as the day it happened. We all have to give us our ghosts or stagnate and die with them. I can't speak for you, but I am tired of the divisiveness. We will never come together until we fucking come together. We can continue to fight over what was and who did what to whom, or we can put the past in the past. I stand by my statement. BLM's approach and strategy didn't do black people or the cause any favors.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 12:38pm

BLM's approach

@dkmich

BLM's approach and strategy didn't do black people or the cause any favors.

Indeed. Especially when it's considered that BLM sabotaged the candidacy of the Democratic Presidential Candidate who was the most reliable ally Black folks had in the 2016 race, Bernie Sanders.

It's been said here at c99 that BLM started out as nothing else but Hillary Clinton's astroturf, designed to make sure Black people voted against their own interests and for her. That proposition has some credibility behind it!

"everyone will be treated as if the histories which brought them to this point are equal." Who is making that statement? Not me. This one statement is eroneous and undermines the basis of your essay. I totally agree with MLK. I don't agree with BLM, dailykos and black kos limousine liberals, or this essay. The main point that I made and that I think generated this discussion is that ALM would have been a less divisive and therefore more pragmatic and effective name. If you are explaining, you are defending. If you are defending, you are losing. gjohnsit has published many essays on the topic of criminal injustice that site a ton of statistics that support BLMs claims and expand on them to show that others are currently being victimized as much, and some more, as black people. These facts can be turned into an argument about how it got this way and who is the rightful victim, or they can be used to document and correct the problem. Native Americans have a history with "the white man" in this country too, and the statistics show they are just as likely if not more likely to be shot and jailed as a black male. There is no way in hell, I am going to judge whose history is the longest, worst, or biggest hell. Transcending race means putting the past behind you and moving on. It doesn't mean forgetting it, pretending it never happened or saying it is all okey dokey. It means putting it in the past and focusing on today and tomorrow. The anger, righteous or not, cannot be on the same level today and all the tomorrows to come. If it is, it becomes like the spouse who cheated on his/her marital vows and is still hearing about it 50 years later with the same intensity and anguish as the day it happened. We all have to give us our ghosts or stagnate and die with them. I can't speak for you, but I am tired of the divisiveness. We will never come together until we fucking come together. We can continue to fight over what was and who did what to whom, or we can put the past in the past. I stand by my statement. BLM's approach and strategy didn't do black people or the cause any favors.

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 2:00pm

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal@thanatokephaloides One minute, people

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal @thanatokephaloides One minute, people were creating traffic stoppages by lying down in the streets to call attention to the murderous conditions they live under. The next, they were throwing their weight behind, or against, various white presidential candidates, and talking about how they would soon have "talking points" for the press.

I have no idea what happened between point A and point B, but suddenly everything started to smell like a political consultant's office.

Then there was point C, where people started applying the principles of the movement equally to all white politicians--asking Hillary Clinton to account for her "superpredator" speech, singing to interrupt her speech in Atlanta in the same way that Sanders' and O'Malley's speeches had been interrupted. That happens when people join a group because they agree with its stated aims and act honestly and naturally in accordance with those aims, despite the fact that the group's aims are not, or are no longer, as stated.

Then you have to get white security to escort them out, or get John Lewis to rush up and down the ranks of singing Black women from GA, shushing them.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Unabashed Liberal on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 6:17pm

Hi, Sean! Regarding BLM, I've posted the excerpt

@thanatokephaloides

a few times in the past--BLM did not endorse FSC for President.

Here are the words of co-founder, Alicia Garza,

"The BLM Network has held a firm position of not offering endorsements at the presidential level," BLM co-founder Alicia Garza said in a statement to Mic. "No candidate has sufficiently engaged our concerns or our vision to earn an endorsement."

Now, a corporatist AA Dude from Teach For America did endorse FSC. (His name--DeRay Mckesson.)

Also, according to Garza,

". . . [DeRay] Mckesson is free to make his own personal announcement about who he'll vote for, as are other individuals in the movement.

"But it's dangerous and false to assume that when individuals make those choices, they do so on behalf of an entire movement," Garza said in the statement. "This announcement [McKesson's endorsement of Clinton] should be seen as an individual decision, not as a reflection of a consensus in a broad-based movement comprised of many different elements."

I'll be happy to dig up the link to the piece, if that would be helpful. (I've kept this blurb on Notepad, since I've posted it several times at EB.)

Excellent essay--thanks!

Mollie

“I believe in the redemptive powers of a dog’s love. It is in recognition of each dog’s potential to lift the human spirit, and therefore, to change society for the better, that I fight to make sure every street dog has its day.”
--Stasha Wong, Secretary, Save Our Street Dogs (SOSD)

—

Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 6:40pm

BLM's endorsements

@Unabashed Liberal

Hi, Sean! Regarding BLM, I've posted the excerpt a few times in the past--BLM did not endorse FSC for President.

No, but actions often mean more than words do.

And BLM made a point of striking against Bernie's campaign events early and often, while barely touching Hillary Clinton's events at all.

We may be dealing with a headquarters-versus-street-level difference here; but the result is the same.

Had BLM treated Bernie as he deserved from them, the Southern Primaries might have been more the horse races they should have been, and Bernie might have gotten the nomination rather than Her Heinous.

Thank you for digging up the quote, however!

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by Unabashed Liberal on Wed, 08/16/2017 - 7:15pm

De nada! ;-) EOM

@thanatokephaloides

Mollie

—

Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Thu, 08/17/2017 - 9:02am

@thanatokephaloides Than is right.

@thanatokephaloides Than is right. Official endorsements--no. But it's damned interesting that they didn't interrupt the speeches of any Republican candidates, and, in fact, it took a few weeks before they interrupted anyone other than Sanders and O'Malley. In fact, they had interrupted Sanders at least twice before they interrupted Hillary once.

They also never interrupted Jim Webb, which is interesting, since he has the most openly racist outlook of any of the Democratic candidates, which he tries to get out of by holding up the fact that he married a Vietnamese woman. Jim Webb calls affirmative action "institutionalized racism." But BLM never, as far as I know, troubled him once. For about the first three weeks of this tactic, which tactically makes no sense to me at all except as a visibility exercise, they only went after people running to the left of Hillary Clinton.

That sounds more like an alliance had been made between at least some part of BLM and the Clinton campaign, because discrediting the left is what Clinton politics has always been about.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by Creosote. on Thu, 08/17/2017 - 1:44pm

That Clinton was never present to be interrupted

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
is another factor. And had she been the jail and penalty factor would have been immediate and massive deterrents.

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Thu, 08/17/2017 - 3:54pm

@Creosote. Did BLM come

@Creosote. Did BLM come out against John Lewis when he shushed the Black women interrupting Hillary (much later?) That's a real question. I don't recall that they did, but I don't know for sure. I think I'd remember if they did though (Lewis is one of the untouchables because of what he did for Civil Rights in his twenties.)

BLM certainly didn't ride to the defense of that young Black woman who infiltrated Hillary's fundraiser with a Super Predator sign. If everybody who'd participated in #BernieSoBlack had rushed to support that woman, it might have put some interesting pressures on the Democratic party and raised some interesting questions in the Presidential race (assuming that's the point of this tactic; like I said, I don't really see what's to be gained by messing about with presidential campaigns other than general visibility.)

My personal view is that BLM began as a grassroots movement and was subsequently partially co-opted. That's a difficult thing to deal with if you are an average person moved to support BLM because you oppose state-sanctioned racist murder, but have little inside information about what's happening within the organization (or what larger political forces are doing with/to it). So, of course, there are many rank-and-file who join BLM because they oppose racism and then, in sincerity, act on those principles, and that continues despite the fact that the movement appears to be, at least partially, a puppet movement for the DNC much the same as the Tea Party was for the Republicans (but without candidates for office, oddly enough).

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Open Thread on Race and Propaganda

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