You know the world is in trouble when Kissinger is the voice of reason

Submitted by gjohnsit on Mon, 08/15/2022 - 5:44pm

Henry Kissinger will soon turn 100, proving that like Dick Cheney, evil men seem to live forever.
While Kissinger is mostly remembered for winning the Nobel Peace Prize for Vietnam while committing genocide in Cambodia, I prefer to remember his comments to the Iraqi Kurds just one year later, who he has inspired to revolt against Saddam Hussein and were being slaughtered.
“Promise them anything, give them what they get, and fuck them if they can’t take a joke.”
Followed by, “Covert action should not be confused with missionary work.”

It is this evil man that we now turn to as the voice of sanity.

“We are at the edge of war with Russia and China on issues which we partly created, without any concept of how this is going to end or what it’s supposed to lead to.”

That’s the view of Henry Kissinger, the 99-year-old former secretary of state and national-security adviser, in an interview with the Wall Street Journal. He recommended that the U.S. not “accelerate the tensions and to create options, and for that you have to have some purpose.”

Kissinger added that foreign policy is “very responsive to the emotion of the moment.”
...On Taiwan, he advised being “very careful” in measures that seem to change the structure of the relationship with China, without directly criticizing the recent visit by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

It's a sad day when "Let's not cause a war with the other major nuclear powers in the world without a plan and for no good reason," is bold outside-the-box thinking.
Washington hasn't bothered with diplomacy since the end of the Cold War. Unless you think diplomacy means dropping bombs from 30,000 feet. While you might be able to get away with that against internationally isolated nations like Afghanistan and Iraq, that won't work against Russia and China.
Hell, it wouldn't even work against Russia and China of 1992. It certainly doesn't work against Russia and China of 2022. Even fellow war-criminal Tony Blair, not exactly a man of deep wisdom, has figured out that the world has moved on.

"We are coming to the end of Western political and economic dominance," Blair said in a lecture entitled "After Ukraine, What Lessons Now for Western Leadership?" according to a text of the speech to a forum supporting the alliance between the United States and Europe at Ditchley Park west of London.
"The world is going to be at least bi-polar and possibly multi-polar," Blair said. "The biggest geo-political change of this century will come from China not Russia."

If you aren't aware of the consequences of the political elites not smartening up, this headline happened today.

As many as 5 billion people worldwide – 75% of the global population – would die from famine and hunger after a nuclear war between the U.S. and Russia, a new study says.

The detonation of a nuclear weapon would cause massive fires and inject soot into the atmosphere, blocking sunlight from reaching the surface and limiting food production, leading to the deaths, the study said.

“A large percent of the people will be starving,” Lili Xia, a climate scientist at Rutgers University, who led the research, told Nature.com. “It’s really bad.”

What do you think are the chances of you surviving a nuclear war if you aren't wealthy? Near zero.
That's why I believe that while Russia should not be rewarded for it's aggression against Ukraine, if the alternative is risking nuclear war with Russia then "Sorry Ukraine."
And anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't have their head screwed on properly.
Things like this do not help.

Now some European politicians are calling for an end to the short-term visas that allow Russians to holiday in the EU as the war in Ukraine rages on.
Countries including Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Finland and the Czech Republic have called for the EU to limit or block short-term Schengen visas for Russians, in protest at their country’s invasion of Ukraine.

After six months of war, the proposal echoes widespread frustration with a Russian public that seems either unable or unwilling to mount a meaningful resistance to the war being waged in their name.

Either Putin is a dictator or he isn't. If he's a dictator then you can't blame the people of Russia for this war, and collective punishment is wrong. Plus it looks a whole bunch like xenophobia.
We are also seeing a disturbing revival of Cold War propaganda that were long ago proven to be lies.
As for Kissinger looking back on his horrible legacy.

The secretary of state under Richard Nixon himself has been dubbed a war criminal by some, for his role in sabotaging Vietnamese peace talks, expanding that war into Cambodia and other controversial moves. He didn’t appear to express regret in the Wall Street Journal interview. “I do not torture myself with things we might have done differently,” he reportedly said.

Guilt and regret is not part of Kissinger's character.

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Submitted by gjohnsit on Mon, 08/15/2022 - 6:04pm

Shocker! Ukraine isn't going on the offensive

You'll need to sit down for this.
I've been covering Ukraine's big offensive near Kherson (in the news media) for over a month now, and now it turns out that there is no big offensive.

Ukrainian officials say they're expecting a Russian advance and have built up a counter-narrative they'll retake Kherson, one of the first cities to fall in early March, as Russia ramps up strikes on Mykolaiv. Logically Kherson is the obvious first big grab, most Russian forces are on the other side of the Dniper river making it a vulnerable bridgehead valued by both sides.
But the reality on the ground is that we saw no buildup of Ukrainian forces. In fact, quite the opposite: huge expanses near the front were devoid of soldiers. They weren't hiding in the trees either; roads seemed virtually untouched by heavy-tracked fighting vehicles or tanks, with no tell-tale mud on the road or any sign troops were moving in numbers.

Boy, we never saw that one coming.
But there is one winner from all this, and you'll never guess who: the merchants of death.

The Philippines is looking to buy heavy-lift Chinook helicopters from the United States, after scrapping a deal with Russia worth 12.7 billion pesos ($227.35 million) in order to avoid sanctions, Manila's ambassador to Washington said on Monday.
In June, days before President Rodrigo Duterte ended his six-year term, the Philippines scrapped a deal to buy 16 Mi-17 Russian military transport helicopters because of fears of U.S. sanctions linked to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

"This cancellation of this contract is precipitated mainly by the war in Ukraine. While there are sanctions expected to come our way, from the United States and western countries, obviously it is not in our interest to continue and pursue this contract," ambassador Jose Manuel Romualdez told journalists in a virtual forum.

Submitted by CB on Tue, 08/16/2022 - 12:04am

The war mongers at the RAND

@gjohnsit
don't seem to agree with you:

Shocker! Ukraine isn't going on the offensive

The Case for Cautious Optimism in Ukraine
by Raphael S. Cohen and Gian Gentile
August 9, 2022

A half year into the Russo-Ukrainian war, two dueling interpretations of what's happening on the ground increasingly shape Western views of the conflict. The first narrative—and seemingly the more-dominant one—is that the Russians are slowly but surely grinding away at Ukrainian defensive lines in Donetsk and Luhansk, pummeling the defenders with their vast stores of artillery, and slowly but systematically gaining ground. This view also claims that Ukraine now finds itself close to exhaustion, having suffered significant casualties and equipment losses. The only prudent action, therefore, would be to pursue some sort of negotiated settlement—in essence, trading land for a temporary peace—before a bad situation gets even worse.

A second, more-optimistic view turns this take on its head and sees a Ukrainian victory unfolding over the coming months. This interpretation notes that Russian advances have stalled all along the 1,000-kilometer (620-mile) front; that Ukraine has used Western-supplied long-range precision artillery, such as the U.S. High-Mobility Artillery Rocket System, or HIMARS, to neutralize Russia's principal military advantage by striking Russian artillery ammunition depots far behind the front line; and that Ukrainian forces seem to be gearing up for a major offensive, which Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has announced will take place around the southern Ukrainian city of Kherson. The best policy for the West, therefore, is to double down on supplying Ukraine and allow it to hand Russia a defeat.

Over the last six months, the Western debate—over whether to negotiate for peace or dig in for a longer war—has become increasingly heated. Advocates of a settlement regard continued support for Ukraine as wishful thinking or worse, whereas those in the second camp regard the first as defeatist and appeasing a dangerous power. Obviously, both interpretations cannot be simultaneously correct—even if we account for uncertainty amid the fog of war. Which take is correct will, in turn, determine the best policy response. So what is really happening on the ground?

Let's start with the map. There has been such intense focus on Ukraine's loss of two significant cities in the east—Severodonetsk and Lysychansk—this summer that it's been easy to lose sight of the broader picture. Small Russian territorial gains aside, the overwhelming reality is a general stasis in the battle lines. Indeed, when comparing the lines from April through today, the striking feature is that they have barely moved, with fluctuations measured in the tens of kilometers at most. This is nothing close to the dramatic shifts one would expect to see if the tide was really turning. There is good reason for this inertia: Both sides are exhausted and unable to inflict a knockout blow.
...

These 'experts' at RAND have failed to take into consideration Putin's PRIMARY goals - denazification and demilitarization. It is not to make territorial gains at this point. The Russian forces are quite content to minimize casualties by staying back and pounding the Ukraine forces with their artillery. The more they can kill and maim the safer the country will be when it is over.

In any event, it appears that the Ukraine forces along the Donbas line have been gradually pushed out of their dug-in defensive positions (constructed in the 8 years since 2014) and will not be able to maintain a viable defence in the future. This front will most likely collapse within the next month at the rate it has been going.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Mon, 08/15/2022 - 6:36pm

Sigh….

That's why I believe that while Russia should not be rewarded for it's aggression against Ukraine, if the alternative is risking nuclear war with Russia… And anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't have their head screwed on properly.

Russia has a good case for its actions in Ukraine being self defense from America which has been encroaching on its borders for 30 years. Anyone who thinks that Russia should allow America to put nuclear weapons in Ukraine are the ones who don’t have their heads screwed on properly. You know damn well how we’d react if Russia put their army and nukes in Mexico after violently removing the president and killing thousands of Americans living there.

Biden and his puppet masters could have easily avoided Russia making the decision to protect the people in the Donbas by simply agreeing not to let Ukraine join NATO and insisting that they uphold the Minsk agreement. Instead Ukraine built up a huge force backed by and armed by NATO to slaughter more people there. Ukraine already killed 40,000 people. How many more do you think Russia should have watched being killed before they acted?

—

The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt

Submitted by gjohnsit on Mon, 08/15/2022 - 6:48pm

I didn't want to focus on that for this essay

@snoopydawg
You already know I am fully aware that NATO forced Russia into a position that it had to respond in some way, and then has pressured Ukraine from making peace.
OTOH, the war doesn't start until someone starts shooting. So Russia isn't innocent in this.

But my major point is that it doesn't fucking matter if we are all dead in a nuclear war.
I'm sure that you can agree with this. I've also cross-posted this on reddit to see what sort of response I'll get.

Submitted by Marie on Mon, 08/15/2022 - 6:59pm

iirc

@gjohnsit

OTOH, the war doesn't start until someone starts shooting.

Ukraine has been shooting ethnic Russians in the Donbass since 2014.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Mon, 08/15/2022 - 7:04pm

Then maybe you might have left this out

@gjohnsit

That's why I believe that while Russia should not be rewarded for it's aggression against Ukraine, if the alternative is risking nuclear war with Russia… And anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't have their head screwed on properly.

Russia has said numerous times that they don’t plan on using nukes in Ukraine because it’s a stupid thing to do. But lots of our congress critters are saying that yes indeed the world could maybe survive if mini nukes are used.

I agree that they should be off the table by any country. RT also wrote about nuclear winter and posted this picture. Russia has been asking Biden to extend the current nuclear weapons bill, but without much luck. Biden’s been yapping about it, but has not talked to Russia about it because he wants China to sign on too. China is saying no they don’t think they should.

—

Submitted by gjohnsit on Mon, 08/15/2022 - 7:13pm

I really don't want to follow this thread

@snoopydawg because it distracts from my main point, which I shall repeat: it doesn't fucking matter if we are all dead in a nuclear war.
I wrote that with anti-Russia people in mind, but I would like to remind you as well.
If you are so focused on "Russia should not be rewarded for it's aggression against Ukraine" that you are distracted from my main point then you are making a HUGE mistake.
Personally I believe that you are smarter than that.

Submitted by CB on Mon, 08/15/2022 - 10:50pm

If there will be a nuclear war

@gjohnsit @gjohnsit
the US will start it - but Russia will finish it. Unlike in the Cold War times, they have the ability to hit the US mainland, both by missiles and subs, for which the US has no protection. Russia still has functional bomb shelters.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7FI6ijbH-w]

Patrushev instructed to prepare bunkers for the population of the southern regions of the Russian Federation – The Moscow Times in Russian
April 27, 2022

The Russian authorities are beginning to revise and prepare bunker defenses in the southern regions of the country, where the “yellow” level of terrorist danger has been introduced and where the air defense system has worked twice just last night.

In the south of the Russian Federation, it is necessary “everywhere” to bring the protective structures of civil defense into proper condition, to ensure the reliable operation of the warning system, Security Council Secretary Nikolai Patrushev said on Wednesday.
...

Submitted by CB on Mon, 08/15/2022 - 9:55pm

Putin is not in any hurry to end the Ukrainian SMO

He still has not completed his goals.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jSMj-lLdeo]

Decision taken on denazification, demilitarization of Ukraine — Putin
Justice and truth are on Russia’s side, President Vladimir Putin said

MOSCOW, February 24. /TASS/. Russian President Vladimir Putin said that he had made the decision to hold a special military operation in response to the address of leaders of Donbass republics.

"People’s republics of Donbass approached Russia with a request for help. In connection therewith, I made the decision to hold a special military operation. Its goal is to protect the people that are subjected to abuse, genocide from the Kiev regime for eight years, and to this end we will seek to demilitarize and denazify Ukraine and put to justice those that committed numerous bloody crimes against peaceful people, including Russian nationals," Putin said in the television address.

Justice and truth are on Russia’s side, President Vladimir Putin said in a special television address.

"The welfare, the very existence of entire countries and peoples, their success and health are always originating from the strong root system of culture and values, experience and traditions of ancestors, directly depending on abilities to quickly adapt to continuously changing life, consolidation of the society, its readiness to consolidate and gather all forces together for moving forward," Putin said.

"Forces are always needed but they can be of different quality," the Russian leader said. "And we know the real strength is in justice and truth that are on our side," he added.

If you have watched Putin's actions in the preceding 22 years you should know he is an extremely patient man and only makes decisions after extensive discussions and planning.

In February US/NATO had finally pushed him to war with Ukraine.

PUTIN WAS LEFT WITH NO OTHER CHOICE EXCEPT TO INVADE UKRAINE IN ORDER TO PROTECT HIS COUNTRY AND PEOPLE!

OSCE Reports Reveal Ukraine Started Shelling The Donbas Nine Days Before Russia's 'Special Military Operation'
The Biden Administration, U.S. political officials, and the corporate media are lying the American public into World War III.

American history is replete with examples of politicians, the corporate media, and the military-industrial complex using lies, false pretenses, and propaganda to sell war to a public that would otherwise be hesitant to send their sons and daughters off to fight on foreign soil.
...
In all of these examples, the corporate press acted as dutiful stenographers of the military-industrial complex hypnotizing the American people with lies, deception, and propaganda.

If the old adage is true that the first causality of war is the truth then it should follow that the first battle between Russia and Ukraine was also won with lies.

It is important to remember that the armed conflict in eastern Ukraine started in 2014 after the Obama administration and U.S. Congress members installed a new government in Ukraine, in what the head of the “private CIA” firm Stratfor called “the most blatant coup in history.”

In response to the U.S.-backed coup, the Luhansk and Donetsk regions in the Donbas held a referendum on seceding from Ukraine, in which 96% of Luhansk and 89% of Donetsk voted for the creation of two new self-described independent republics in eastern Ukraine.
...
Between 2014 and 2022 the War in Donbas killed an estimated 14,000 people, forcing millions of people to flee the region, and turning the conflict zone into one of the world’s most mine-contaminated areas.

The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) has had observers on-the-ground monitoring the situation in Donbas since the outbreak of open conflict began in 2014.

The OSCE has been the only international civilian observer mission allowed to collect information from both sides of the contact line, and its data, while incomplete, remains the best available.

The OSCE observer mission provides maps in daily reports documenting the location of ceasefire violations and explosions along the contact line between the Ukrainian military and the Donbas republics.

These maps clearly show that Ukraine began artillery strikes against the Donbas republics on February 16th, 2022.

In other words, Ukraine began shelling the independent republics of Donetsk and Luhansk nine days before Russia announced its ‘special military operation’ in Ukraine.

While the western corporate media remained completely silent, explosions documented by the OSCE increased from 76 on February 15th, to 316 on February 16th, to 654 on February 17th, and to 1,413 on February 18th.

When you look carefully at the daily maps of these explosions, it is clear that the vast majority of explosions occurred on the Russian separatist side of the ceasefire line.
...
Feb 14: 174 ceasefire violations, 41 explosions
Feb 15: 153 ceasefire violations, 76 explosions
Feb 16: 509 ceasefire violations, 316 explosions
Feb 17: 870 ceasefire violations, 654 explosions
Feb 18: 1,566 ceasefire violations, 1,413 explosions
Feb 19-20: 3,231 ceasefire violations, 2,026 explosions
Feb 21: 1,927 ceasefire violations, 1,481 explosions
Feb 21: Russia recognizes independence of Donetsk and Luhansk
Feb 22: 1,710 ceasefire violations, 1,420 explosions
Feb 24: Russia launches ‘special military operation’
...
Jacques Baud, a former NATO intelligence analyst wrote about the OSCE reports, “On 17 February, President Joe Biden announced that Russia would attack Ukraine in the next few days. How did he know this? It is a mystery. But since the 16th, the artillery shelling of the population of Donbas had increased dramatically, as the daily reports of the OSCE observers show.”

While the western media spent the last year reporting on Russia’s troop buildup at the Ukrainian border, they failed to inform the public about Ukraine amassing “half of it’s army or 125,000 troops” along the Donbas conflict zone during this same time period.

Ukraine began to reposition its forces along the Donbas as early as March 24, 2021, when Volodymyr Zelensky issued a decree for the recapture of the Crimea, and began to deploy his forces to the south of the country.

It is unlikely Zelensky would make such an aggressive decree without first receiving the approval of the United States and NATO.
...

Submitted by Cassiodorus on Mon, 08/15/2022 - 10:34pm

Yup.

It's a sad day when "Let's not cause a war with the other major nuclear powers in the world without a plan and for no good reason," is bold outside-the-box thinking.

This is what the philosopher Cornelius Castoriadis called "the atrophy of political imagination" in that essay "The Retreat from Autonomy: Postmodernism as Generalized Conformism." Biden has stocked his cabinet with warmongers, to be sure, and they are to some extent directing the show, but more importantly they are neoliberal social climbers whose imagination is limited to following what other people believe, and right now it's about "us good, them evil." Isn't that what the light show in Roger Waters concerts (at about 8:26) is about? Zelenskyy and Putin are basically thieves out to steal what they can. The weapons in this war are all going to go into the black market, either when it's over, or now. It's all about money.

It seems to me that if this is to escalate to nuclear war, it will be the fault of the West. Why would the Russians need to use nukes first? They've won.

—

“The loyal Left cannot act decisively. Their devotion to the system is a built-in kill switch limiting dissent.” - Richard Moser

Submitted by CB on Mon, 08/15/2022 - 10:41pm

Russia is only protecting itself

Russia still commemorates the end of WWII where it lost so many of its citizens. They have no intention of ever allowing that to happen again. It's existential.

RUSSIA OCCUPIES UKRAINE TO PROTECT ITSELF FROM NATO!
March 4, 2022 fightingmonarch

The Western News has demonized the Russian invasion of the Ukraine, an area that has belonged to Russia for hundreds of years, where everyone speaks Russian, while Russian separatists are tortured and killed by the Ukrainian Government.
...
Given the history of the region, and the aggressive and criminal behavior of NATO, which has marched its forces right to the border of Russia, Russia’s desire to occupy the Ukraine is entirely understandable.

...
So, it’s easy to imagine how, for Russia, the advance of NATO across Eastern Europe looks just like the advance of Hitler, which they barely staved off.

...
NATO used cluster bombs, banned by the British Government, indiscriminately, during the 1991 Gulf War, the Campaign in Kosovo, and the 2003 Iraq Invasion, so the British Government claims it does not know how many unexploded cluster bombs still threaten civilians in Iraq, Kuwait, Serbia, and Kosovo.

...

That’s why you never hear these stories about NATO, which has invaded and destroyed so many countries, but suddenly you hear stories about the Big Bad Russians picking on the Ukraine, a country where everyone speaks Russian, which has belonged to Russia for centuries, while NATO strives to take control of the area, claiming that the Ukraine wants to join its ranks, so that NATO, which was originally formed to fight Russia, will have one member after another touching Russia’s border.
...

Submitted by gjohnsit on Tue, 08/16/2022 - 3:55pm

NATO map has a mistake

@CB
The line that's supposed to point to Macedonia actually points to Kosovo.

Submitted by CB on Wed, 08/17/2022 - 8:57am

What's your point?

@gjohnsit
Do you think that this negates my post?

Submitted by gjohnsit on Wed, 08/17/2022 - 11:37am

I was just noting a mistake

@CB
Nothing more or less.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Tue, 08/16/2022 - 12:41am

Nailed it

There is not one person on planet earth who shitlibs cannot turn into a Kremlin agent in their propaganda-addled minds the second they say anything critical of a US government policy on Russia.https://t.co/ZjI761IXTL

— Caitlin Johnstone (@caitoz) August 15, 2022

Shitlibs have rehabilitated the worst of the worst of the people from the Bush cabal and rejected anyone who tries to inject some sanity.

—

Submitted by usefewersyllables on Tue, 08/16/2022 - 9:31am

Tom Lehrer

famously stated that the reason he retired from writing and performing was as follows:

"Political satire became obsolete when Henry Kissinger was awarded the Nobel peace prize.”

And there you have it.

—

Twice bitten, permanently shy.

Submitted by Linda Wood on Tue, 08/16/2022 - 12:35pm

This is the best discussion

about this issue that I can find anywhere recently, especially because of the articles CB has brought together.

But gjohnsit, the reason I want to persuade you to see not only that Putin was forced to take military action, as so well described above, but that Putin repeatedly stated that nukes in Ukraine would be 5-7 minutes from Russian population and command and control centers. He explained that such a circumstance would force the Russian military to respond before they had time to verify and thus would create a much more dangerous condition for all life on earth.

Nukes positioned 5-7 minutes from Russian retaliation forces would be an attempt to eliminate Mutually Assured Destruction, therefore making it possible to wipe out Russia's military and the Russian people before they had time to respond.

But, as Putin emphasized, Russia WOULD RESPOND. That is the point he has made. In other words, if you want to cut the decision making time down to 5 minutes, go ahead. We will respond. You launch, we will respond. That makes the danger of annihilation much more imminent.

So from my point of view, he is taking this military action to prevent the nuland/kagan psychopaths from succeeding in nazifying us all and destroying life on earth.

Submitted by gjohnsit on Tue, 08/16/2022 - 3:48pm

I'm aware of the details

@Linda Wood @Linda Wood
I'm totally behind the idea that Putin was pushed into a corner by NATO. That if Putin hadn't seized the Crimea in 2014 that he would have been kicked out of office by a more hawkish general. And the same choice faced Putin if Ukraine joined NATO. And I'm aware that the we gave support to the Ukraine coup plotters in 2014.
All of these things I am already aware of.

But I'm also aware that war is evil, even if you have a seemingly rational reason for it.
I'm aware that Putin had made the move to invade Ukraine, not the other way around.

What you and several other people here are trying to say is "You don't understand. Russia had good reasons for starting this war."
What I'm saying is "I am fully aware of your reasons. War is still evil and Russia started this war. Period."
I remain consistent about the issue of war. There are no exceptions, as long as there are no other options to death.

A couple of you have said that Russia didn't start this war. You are mistaken for rather obvious reasons. You need to do more research.

Submitted by Linda Wood on Tue, 08/16/2022 - 4:42pm

gjohnsit, I am a pacifist.

@gjohnsit

I believe war is an abomination. I agree with you that

There are no exceptions...

and so my hope would have been that Putin would hand over the keys to his country to our psychopaths and let them plunder and impoverish his people. I'm serious. Because that was the only alternative to war, knowing that the psychopaths were clearly planning to retake Russia as they had under Yeltsin.

But Putin is not a pacifist, and Putin lived through the Yeltsin period, and Putin's parents lost two children under the Nazi seige of Leningrad, and Putin wrote and pushed for the Minsk agreement. And he could see that our so-called foreign policy was a relentless willingness to promote war, slaughter, ethnic cleansing, and fascism. Fifteen years of disgusting, suicidal, war profiteering, corruption and killing, daring anyone to stop us.

We started this war. We armed the private Nazi Armies and Ukrainian military that started this war in 2014 and launched thousands of strikes on the Donbass in February 2022 before Russia entered the war.

I believe Putin would agree with you that war is evil and should be avoided

... as long as there are no other options to death.

For Putin and the Russian people, Nazis with nukes, the prospect we took such pains to create for them, was a clear signal of a threat of death.

And I, as a pacifist, have no other thought as to how he could have "solved" this than to have handed over his country. Seriously. People say he could have stopped sending gas to Europe. Do you think that would have stopped the war in Ukraine? Should he have allowed the slaughter of the people of Eastern Ukraine and the positioning of nukes in Ukraine? Not to mention the biological weapons labs! WTF????!!!!

Submitted by aliasalias on Tue, 08/16/2022 - 4:51pm

Maybe Russia should stack along the US/Mexico border

@gjohnsit ,after a military coup of the Democratically elected Leader, continually adding multi-billions of dollars in military equipment, all directed right at the US, 100,000+ military forces, threaten to add nukes, shut down a dam providing water for one region and kill 14,000+ people (mostly civilians) while threatening genocide of the Mexican people after banning their language and political participation. To name very few of the many actions taken against the hypothetical Mexican people.

Yeah if the US did anything about it,after waiting 8 years and failed agreements while the threat was growing, then I guess you'd be saying the US started the war.

Or maybe I don't "have my head screwed on right".

One question for you, do you think that military buildup, with the construction of fortified positions and the combat training of ever more soldiers was for anything other than an eventual attack?

Submitted by gjohnsit on Tue, 08/16/2022 - 5:48pm

This is cool

@aliasalias

Or maybe I don't "have my head screwed on right".

On reddit I've been called every name in the book. Lemme check real quick.

stupid fucking tankie
a waste of space
Putin loving fascist apologist

Among lots of other insults. All because I am far too pro-Putin.
EXCEPT HERE. Here I am anti-Putin.

In neither case does anyone consider that I am first and foremost anti-apocalypse.
And surprisingly being anti-apocalypse is a very small minority.

Submitted by usefewersyllables on Tue, 08/16/2022 - 6:02pm

In terms of being

@gjohnsit

vehemently anti-apocalypse- you are most assuredly not alone...

—

Twice bitten, permanently shy.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Tue, 08/16/2022 - 5:31pm

I get it now…

@gjohnsit

A couple of you have said that Russia didn't start this war. You are mistaken for rather obvious reasons. You need to do more research.

Obama’s coup in 2014 was a figment of our imagination and the fact that NATO and especially America has been training and arming the neo Nazis and watching them kill people in the Donbas while ignoring the Minsk agreement wasn’t actually a war against native Russian speakers.

You need to pay attention to the work CB has posted here and maybe you will understand how wrong you are.

Or maybe you could read my essay on how Russia didn’t start the war? Starting with Putin’s speech.

Twice in one century Russia faces a war of annihilation

A war of annihilation is a war in which the goal is the complete obliteration of the state and the extermination of its people. It is defined as a radicalized form of warfare in which “all psycho-physical limits” are abolished and the strategic goals are pursued by any means necessary. It is war without rules, restrictions or moral constraints. The United States is in the early phases of a war of annihilation against Russia the aim of which is the total destruction of the economy, the culture, the population and the nation.
“We have seen 5 waves of NATO expansion. Now NATO is in Romania and Poland and they are deploying their missile-attack systems there. That’s what we are talking about. You need to understand, we are not threatening anyone. Russia did not come to the US borders or the UK borders. No. You came to our borders and now you are saying, ‘Ukraine will join NATO and will deploy their systems there. They will deploy their military bases and their attack-systems.’ We are concerned about our security. Do you understand what that means?” Vladimir Putin, press conference, You Tube

Question– Is there a justification for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine?

Answer– Yes, there is. Russia was being threatened by developments in Ukraine, so it told Ukraine to either stop what it was doing or suffer the consequences. Ukraine chose to ignore those warnings, so Russia invaded. That is basically what happened.

Question– But how does that justify the invasion, after all, Ukraine is a sovereign country and sovereign countries should be able to do whatever they want to on their own territory, right?

Answer– No, that’s wrong. Ukraine does not have the right to do whatever it wants on its own territory. Ukraine and more than 50 other countries signed treaties (“at the OSCE summits in Istanbul in 1999 and in Astana in 2010”) agreeing that they would not strengthen their own security at the expense of other’s security. This is called the “indivisibility of security”, but in practical terms it just means that you can’t put artillery pieces and tanks on your driveway and point them at my house. Because that would undermine my security. Do you understand? The same rule applies to nations.

If we accept your reasoning on the matter, then we’d have to conclude that John Kennedy had no right to challenge Fidel Castro for putting nuclear weapons in Cuba. But he did have the right because Castro’s action put the US at risk of a nuclear attack. In other words, Castro had no right to improve his own security at the expense of the United States. This is no different. Putin has every right to defend the safety and security of the Russian people, in fact, that is what people expect of their leaders.

Can’t you see that or are you so brainwashed you think this fiasco started when Putin’s tanks rolled across the border? Even the most avid CNN propagandist doesn’t believe that nonsense. The crisis began with the relentless buildup of weaponry followed by one calculated incitement after the other. Russia was deliberately and repeatedly provoked. No one who’s followed events closely would dispute that.

I encourage you to read the whole essay.

BTW I was going to apologize last night if I had derailed your essay, but I changed my mind after reading your comment about how smart you think I should be. Maybe you can stop insulting people you disagree with. You’re entitled to your opinion, but others here are too.

As for nuclear war being bad I wholeheartedly agree with you. Funny tho how Ukraine right now is trying to create a nuclear accident by bombing nuclear sites in Ukraine. Here’s what they did today and if you don’t think that Biden’s handlers are okay with it I don’t know what to say.

Ukraine bombs nuclear waste storage site

The Ukrainian military has fired multiple rockets directly at coolant systems and nuclear waste storage site inside the Zaporozhye nuclear power plant in Energodar, local government administration member Vladimir Rogov told Russian media on Tuesday. He warned that a successful strike may result in a radiation release equivalent to a “dirty bomb.”

“One of the guided missiles hit just ten meters” from the barrels with spent nuclear fuel,” Rogov told Soloviev Live. “Others hit a bit farther away, 50 to 200 meters.”

Since the storage site is out in the open, any hit will result in the release of nuclear waste ranging from dozens to hundreds of kilograms and contamination of the area, the official explained. “In plain language, that would be like a dirty bomb,” said Rogov.

A dirty bomb would affect 9 countries.

In an interview published on Tuesday, Vladimir Kuznetsov warned that if the plant is hit by volley fire, with numerous missiles striking the storage facility that holds spent nuclear fuel, chances are that more than one container would be damaged. This scenario would entail radiation escaping “into the environment – hence the contamination of not only the industrial site but also the Dnepr river which is nearby,” the expert noted.

Kuznetsov also pointed out that such a strike would most likely be accompanied by a fire, and “God knows where the wind would send the combustion products.”

The former chief inspector surmised that should 20 to 30 containers be breached in such an attack, the “radiation would affect approximately nine countries: Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Poland, the Baltic states and obviously Western Ukraine.”

There is a reason Russia took control of nuclear power plants in Ukraine immediately after they went in. They didn’t trust that the Nazis wouldn’t create a dirty bomb. Imagine the havoc now if they hadn’t.

—

Submitted by gjohnsit on Tue, 08/16/2022 - 5:55pm

anti-Apocalypse has never been less popular

@snoopydawg

You need to pay attention to the work CB has posted here and maybe you will understand how wrong you are.
Or maybe you could read my essay on how Russia didn’t start the war? Starting with Putin’s speech.

I was following the events in real time. I know who shot first, and whos troops crossed whos border first.

BTW I was going to apologize last night if I had derailed your essay, but I changed my mind after reading your comment about how smart you think I should be. Maybe you can stop insulting people you disagree with. You’re entitled to your opinion, but others here are too.

If you want to take my comment as an insult, then go ahead and insult me to make it even. I can't be more fair than that.

#8.1 A couple of you have said that Russia didn't start this war. You are mistaken for rather obvious reasons. You need to do more research. Obama’s coup in 2014 was a figment of our imagination and the fact that NATO and especially America has been training and arming the neo Nazis and watching them kill people in the Donbas while ignoring the Minsk agreement wasn’t actually a war against native Russian speakers. You need to pay attention to the work CB has posted here and maybe you will understand how wrong you are. Or maybe you could read my essay on how Russia didn’t start the war? Starting with Putin’s speech. Twice in one century Russia faces a war of annihilation A war of annihilation is a war in which the goal is the complete obliteration of the state and the extermination of its people. It is defined as a radicalized form of warfare in which “all psycho-physical limits” are abolished and the strategic goals are pursued by any means necessary. It is war without rules, restrictions or moral constraints. The United States is in the early phases of a war of annihilation against Russia the aim of which is the total destruction of the economy, the culture, the population and the nation. “We have seen 5 waves of NATO expansion. Now NATO is in Romania and Poland and they are deploying their missile-attack systems there. That’s what we are talking about. You need to understand, we are not threatening anyone. Russia did not come to the US borders or the UK borders. No. You came to our borders and now you are saying, ‘Ukraine will join NATO and will deploy their systems there. They will deploy their military bases and their attack-systems.’ We are concerned about our security. Do you understand what that means?” Vladimir Putin, press conference, You Tube Question– Is there a justification for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine? Answer– Yes, there is. Russia was being threatened by developments in Ukraine, so it told Ukraine to either stop what it was doing or suffer the consequences. Ukraine chose to ignore those warnings, so Russia invaded. That is basically what happened. Question– But how does that justify the invasion, after all, Ukraine is a sovereign country and sovereign countries should be able to do whatever they want to on their own territory, right? Answer– No, that’s wrong. Ukraine does not have the right to do whatever it wants on its own territory. Ukraine and more than 50 other countries signed treaties (“at the OSCE summits in Istanbul in 1999 and in Astana in 2010”) agreeing that they would not strengthen their own security at the expense of other’s security. This is called the “indivisibility of security”, but in practical terms it just means that you can’t put artillery pieces and tanks on your driveway and point them at my house. Because that would undermine my security. Do you understand? The same rule applies to nations. If we accept your reasoning on the matter, then we’d have to conclude that John Kennedy had no right to challenge Fidel Castro for putting nuclear weapons in Cuba. But he did have the right because Castro’s action put the US at risk of a nuclear attack. In other words, Castro had no right to improve his own security at the expense of the United States. This is no different. Putin has every right to defend the safety and security of the Russian people, in fact, that is what people expect of their leaders. Can’t you see that or are you so brainwashed you think this fiasco started when Putin’s tanks rolled across the border? Even the most avid CNN propagandist doesn’t believe that nonsense. The crisis began with the relentless buildup of weaponry followed by one calculated incitement after the other. Russia was deliberately and repeatedly provoked. No one who’s followed events closely would dispute that. I encourage you to read the whole essay. BTW I was going to apologize last night if I had derailed your essay, but I changed my mind after reading your comment about how smart you think I should be. Maybe you can stop insulting people you disagree with. You’re entitled to your opinion, but others here are too. As for nuclear war being bad I wholeheartedly agree with you. Funny tho how Ukraine right now is trying to create a nuclear accident by bombing nuclear sites in Ukraine. Here’s what they did today and if you don’t think that Biden’s handlers are okay with it I don’t know what to say. Ukraine bombs nuclear waste storage site The Ukrainian military has fired multiple rockets directly at coolant systems and nuclear waste storage site inside the Zaporozhye nuclear power plant in Energodar, local government administration member Vladimir Rogov told Russian media on Tuesday. He warned that a successful strike may result in a radiation release equivalent to a “dirty bomb.” “One of the guided missiles hit just ten meters” from the barrels with spent nuclear fuel,” Rogov told Soloviev Live. “Others hit a bit farther away, 50 to 200 meters.” Since the storage site is out in the open, any hit will result in the release of nuclear waste ranging from dozens to hundreds of kilograms and contamination of the area, the official explained. “In plain language, that would be like a dirty bomb,” said Rogov. A dirty bomb would affect 9 countries. In an interview published on Tuesday, Vladimir Kuznetsov warned that if the plant is hit by volley fire, with numerous missiles striking the storage facility that holds spent nuclear fuel, chances are that more than one container would be damaged. This scenario would entail radiation escaping “into the environment – hence the contamination of not only the industrial site but also the Dnepr river which is nearby,” the expert noted. Kuznetsov also pointed out that such a strike would most likely be accompanied by a fire, and “God knows where the wind would send the combustion products.” The former chief inspector surmised that should 20 to 30 containers be breached in such an attack, the “radiation would affect approximately nine countries: Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Poland, the Baltic states and obviously Western Ukraine.” There is a reason Russia took control of nuclear power plants in Ukraine immediately after they went in. They didn’t trust that the Nazis wouldn’t create a dirty bomb. Imagine the havoc now if they hadn’t.

Submitted by on the cusp on Tue, 08/16/2022 - 10:26pm

disagreement is not tantamount to insult.

@gjohnsit It is merely difference in viewpoint or opinion. You know that. Or, you used to.
Taking this to some other, lower lever, if my home was surrounded, or starting to be surrounded, no damn way I wouldn't fire first. I have a loved one in my home I would kill to protect, and my loved one would kill to protect me.
We are a home, not a country, but that is the thinking, the charge, of leaders and defenders.
Come to my home, sit on the sofa, and me and my husband will do our best to protect you, and we are not Putin.

—

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Submitted by snoopydawg on Tue, 08/16/2022 - 11:28pm

That would be Ukraine

@gjohnsit

I was following the events in real time. I know who shot first, and whos troops crossed whos border first.

They had been killing people in the Donbas for the last 8 years. Or to be technical it would have been the Maiden square massacre after Obama overthrew Ukraine’s president. Did you read anything I quoted Putin saying as to why Russia decided to protect people in the Donbas and demilitarize and de-Nazify Ukraine so that they could never threaten Russia again? You seem to have blinders on to who actually started the war. Yes Russia went into Ukraine because Biden was holding a nuclear weapon to Russia’s head and Ukraine was actually killing people in the Donbas and said that they were going to build nuclear weapons after Russia warned that they were crossing the red line. How do you not understand the Mexico/iSIs/nuclear weapons analogy? Or the Cuba situation? To use your words you have to be smarter than this hanging on to Russia being the aggressor here. I don’t think America would have been as patient as Russia has been if Russia was surrounding America with Russian bases.

I can’t believe how many times the facts need to be repeated.

—

Submitted by TheOtherMaven on Wed, 08/17/2022 - 8:45am

Russia Derangement Syndrome (or Putin Derangement Syndrome)?

@snoopydawg

It seems to be a massively widespread psychosis. And it's the most dangerous one yet.

—

There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Submitted by gjohnsit on Wed, 08/17/2022 - 6:54pm

You don't have to believe me (and you won't), but you should

@snoopydawg
I'll take these one at a time

to be technical it would have been the Maiden square massacre after Obama overthrew Ukraine’s president.

The topic here is the war between Russia and Ukraine. This is an internal coup, and thus doesn't qualify by definition.

They had been killing people in the Donbas for the last 8 years.

The separatists and Ukraine army have been killing each other in the Donbas for 8 years.

Did you read anything I quoted Putin saying

Stop right there. I won't listen to Putin about why he invaded Ukraine for the same reason I won't listen to Bush explain why he invaded Iraq (or any politician that was involved in a war of any kind).

You seem to have blinders on to who actually started the war.

No, I don't. You just give me no credibility.

Yes Russia went into Ukraine because Biden was holding a nuclear weapon to Russia’s head

No, Biden wasn't. There was the danger of that becoming true, but it wasn't true.

and Ukraine was actually killing people in the Donbas

Like I said. It went both ways. Most of the killing happened in 2014-15. Since 2016 there was no mass killings. It had settled down to the occasional artillery shell getting lobbed a couple times a week.

and said that they were going to build nuclear weapons after Russia warned that they were crossing the red line.

Ukraine was never going to build nuclear weapons. That's not something anyone took seriously. Not even Putin. Stationing NATO nuclear weapons was more likely.

I can’t believe how many times the facts need to be repeated.

Because you don't have a lot of respect for me.

Fact: the first international military action was when Russia seized Crimea. Until then there had been nothing happening at the borders.
Now I vocally supported Russia on this. But I also recognize that this could be said to be the start of a war (although only exactly 1 person died in this action, so it wasn't much of a war)

Fact: the first real conflict happened in the Donbas between the separatists and Ukraine forces.
It started out with sit-in protests, but quickly escalated.
Fact: There was no genocide here for one simple reason - because the separatists held their own. There was a whole lot of civilians that got killed near the front lines, but most of the Donbas wasn't near the front lines.

Fact: the real war started when Russia invaded in February. You could say Russia was provoked (and I strongly believe that you would be right). In fact, you could come up with probably a dozen reasons to justify the invasion. But at the end of the day you wouldn't have changed this most important fact:

Russia invaded Ukraine and that started the war. Period.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Wed, 08/17/2022 - 7:19pm

Au contraire

@gjohnsit

I have a lot of respect for you and the topics you bring us. I hope we can just agree to amicably disagree on this. Our opinions are not going to affect anything either way and if I’ve stepped over the line I apologize.

#8.1.3.1.2
I'll take these one at a time

to be technical it would have been the Maiden square massacre after Obama overthrew Ukraine’s president.

The topic here is the war between Russia and Ukraine. This is an internal coup, and thus doesn't qualify by definition.

They had been killing people in the Donbas for the last 8 years.

The separatists and Ukraine army have been killing each other in the Donbas for 8 years.

Did you read anything I quoted Putin saying

Stop right there. I won't listen to Putin about why he invaded Ukraine for the same reason I won't listen to Bush explain why he invaded Iraq (or any politician that was involved in a war of any kind).

You seem to have blinders on to who actually started the war.

No, I don't. You just give me no credibility.

Yes Russia went into Ukraine because Biden was holding a nuclear weapon to Russia’s head

No, Biden wasn't. There was the danger of that becoming true, but it wasn't true.

and Ukraine was actually killing people in the Donbas

Like I said. It went both ways. Most of the killing happened in 2014-15. Since 2016 there was no mass killings. It had settled down to the occasional artillery shell getting lobbed a couple times a week.

and said that they were going to build nuclear weapons after Russia warned that they were crossing the red line.

Ukraine was never going to build nuclear weapons. That's not something anyone took seriously. Not even Putin. Stationing NATO nuclear weapons was more likely.

I can’t believe how many times the facts need to be repeated.

Because you don't have a lot of respect for me.

Fact: the first international military action was when Russia seized Crimea. Until then there had been nothing happening at the borders.
Now I vocally supported Russia on this. But I also recognize that this could be said to be the start of a war (although only exactly 1 person died in this action, so it wasn't much of a war)

Fact: the first real conflict happened in the Donbas between the separatists and Ukraine forces.
It started out with sit-in protests, but quickly escalated.
Fact: There was no genocide here for one simple reason - because the separatists held their own. There was a whole lot of civilians that got killed near the front lines, but most of the Donbas wasn't near the front lines.

Fact: the real war started when Russia invaded in February. You could say Russia was provoked (and I strongly believe that you would be right). In fact, you could come up with probably a dozen reasons to justify the invasion. But at the end of the day you wouldn't have changed this most important fact:

Russia invaded Ukraine and that started the war. Period.

—

Submitted by CB on Wed, 08/17/2022 - 9:00am

A history lesson for you

@gjohnsit

Submitted by CB on Wed, 08/17/2022 - 8:23pm

What I have noticed is that the NAZIfied Ukranian's

@gjohnsit
were the ones who shot civilians first. If you haven't noticed this ongoing conflict for the last 8 years then you have fuck all to say about this conflict because you are fucken clueless. I have followed the carnage since the US engineered the overthrow of the legitimate Ukrainian government in 2014 under Obama's term.

The Week from Hell: Ukraine’s Incessant Shelling of Gorlovka Killed 4 Civilians and Wounded 7 Others
20/05/2018
...
From May 13th to 20th alone Gorlovka and the neighbouring settlements, where during the past week the UAF’s shelling hasn’t abated – even during daylight hours, four civilians died [2 died on May 19th, 1 died on May 18th, 1 died on May 16th – ed] and seven more were wounded.

According to official figures, just for the last week the number of killed and wounded civilians as a result of UAF shelling is 11 people.

The mayor of Gorlovka Ivan Prikhodko also reported that since May 1st of the current year in Gorlovka and nearby settlements 107 houses were destroyed.

“To say that the situation is difficult is to say nothing at all. Every day we have killed and wounded. Just tonight a man and a woman died, and one more person was wounded in the morning. Since May 1st 107 houses were destroyed, and it was only succeeded to restore 8 of them,” commented Ivan Prikhodko.
...

Submitted by gjohnsit on Wed, 08/17/2022 - 9:19pm

OK

@CB

If you haven't noticed this ongoing conflict for the last 8 years then you have fuck all to say about this conflict because you are fucken clueless.

This is only what I've written since the start of 2018 and that has Ukraine in the title

Submitted by Linda Wood on Thu, 08/18/2022 - 11:54am

gjohnsit, respect for you

@gjohnsit

at this site is pretty universal and at the highest level possible. I have a short list of maybe 4 journalists whose work I find to be the most reliable, insightful, and constructive, and they include Chris Hedges, Scott Ritter, gjohnsit at C99, and I forget who the other one is.

The struggle in this discussion for me is that you posted Henry Kissinger's statements to the Wall Street Journal, but you've said that,

I won't listen to Putin about why he invaded Ukraine for the same reason I won't listen to Bush explain why he invaded Iraq (or any politician that was involved in a war of any kind).

I'm going to look at all the links you've listed here showing what you've written on Ukraine since 2018 out of respect for you and because I learn from you all the time. I'm sure I've read most if them before. But I'm hoping you will begin to look at Putin differently by reading his statements.