Ukrainegate/impeachment points of view

Moon of Alabama writes: The Democrats' Impeachment Attempt Against Trump Is A Huge Mistake

Is it? Is it really? Let's see his reasoning.

After two years of falsely accusing Trump of having colluded with Russia they now allege that he colludes with Ukraine. That will make it much more difficult for the Democrats to hide the dirty hands they had in creating Russiagate. Their currently preferred candidate Joe Biden will get damaged

I agree that it will be a) much more difficult for the Democratic establishment to hide the dirty hands they had in creating Russiagate, and b) currently preferred centrist candidate Joe Biden will get damaged.

To which I say: Thank Fucking Gawd!

You are saying this will help discredit the corrupt, neoliberal, warmongering centrists that have been destroying the Democratic Party?
Excuse me while I shed a tear from my only good eye.

It will help Trump to win his reelection.

Will it?
You mean this whole political circus will undermine the campaign of what has to be the weakest possible candidate the Democrats could put up against him, and thus ensuring that Trump will be facing a better, more populist candidate?
And I'm supposed to believe that this is good news for Trump?
Excuse me for not seeing it that way.

The Democrats are giving Trump the best campaign aid he could have wished for. Trump will again present himself as the victim of a witch hunt. He will again argue that he is the only one on the side of the people. That he alone stands with them against the bad politicians in Washington DC. Millions will believe him and support him on this. It will motivate them to vote for him.

This is indeed possible, but predictions are an art, not a science.
MoA may be certain what the future will bring, but I think that he's making a mistake.
Just look at the history of impeachments.

Every single time Congress moved to impeach, the outcome was different than what the general consensus thought at the beginning.
Also, only with Clinton did the impeachment help the president's popularity. It's an exception to the rule.

The Clinton investigation was taking a messy situation and various baseless rumors and seeing if someone/anyone had committed a crime. It was a fishing expedition by definition. Eventually all they got was lying about blowjobs.
That's why the Clinton impeachment didn't hurt the Dems.

That's nothing like the situation today.

What we have today is known dirty politics, and the only question was if laws were broken in the process.
The investigation is already justified, unlike Whitewater.
That's why the impeachment investigation will not do Trump any favors.
The Trump Administration is deeply and openly corrupt.

Unless the Dems blow it, which is always a possibility.

We don't know what the hearings will turn up.

MoA could be totally correct. Or not.

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Comments

I find Moon more reliable and solid in facts and analysis on FP matters, not so good however on domestic US politics.

And as I noted the other day, recall that when R-gate went fully bust upon release on the Mueller Report, numerous progressives were screaming that R-gater liberals and the rest had just handed Trump another term. Then a couple of months later the meme shifted to Trump's Re-Election Looks Shaky. Which is where we are today. Russiagate seems not to have mattered. No backlash effect or sympathy support for Donald.

I suspect the same will be true for impeachment. And possibly much worse for Donald.

And now we have Donald on tape threatening harm to a whistleblower, a witness about to testify before Congress. There are certainly fed laws about threatening witnesses.

There is already much more there there with U-gate as compared with the intel-driven R-gate propaganda. And I wonder if some of the anti-impeachment progressives have over learned the lessons of the recent 2-yr pseudo scandal.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@wokkamile

And now we have Donald on tape threatening harm to a whistleblower

,

You're not seriously referring to the remark he made about what the US used to do to spies, are you? You don't think you're conflating that a bit do you? I sure didn't hear any Dem outrage when Obama bragged about how good he was at actually killing poor brown people in Middle East, so I can't say I'm terribly worked up over more of the same in terms of inartful utterances of little man Chief.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

Shahryar's picture

@Anja Geitz

And not just to this person, whoever that might be. But to the next one, just like Assange's treatment, Snowden's treatment, Manning's treatment, Drake's treatment, are threats. In fact, it's a continuation of the theme.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@Shahryar

Is no different than what we've already been doing. I'm merely responding to the "gotcha" comment above about Trump saying exactly what you just said. It's a general theme when discussing the mafioso like doings of the Trump administration and treating it as an anomaly of how our government is, and has been run for decades. Trump's real disgrace for the establishment is that he's not hiding it as well as they do.

At any rate, I just can't get lathered up about an "investigation" that will suck all the air out of the room and change the lives of the 99% in this country not one iota.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

snoopydawg's picture

@Anja Geitz

being threatened by Trump and some other talk about whistleblowers in general, but not one person has brought up how Assange is being treated. Or Manning. Lots of Trump making it so WB will think twice before doing that, but once again this is something Trump inherited from Obama. I don't remember democrats being concerned about what Chelsea went through while being held for trial. Nope. And I'm seeing lots of people thinking that Snowden is a traitor and Assange deserves what he is getting because he helped elect Trump. It seems that all of his previous work is being thrown out. The collateral murder tape? Big deal now. You don't get to pick and choose which person you think qualifies for WB status. Unless you are a hypocrite.

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People are going to be sick for the rest of their lives and the people responsible will pay no price.

Sam thinks she’s a cat.

Anja Geitz's picture

@snoopydawg

You don't get to pick and choose which person you think qualifies for WB status. Unless you are a hypocrite.

So, I should give a rats ass because this time it's different?

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

snoopydawg's picture

@Anja Geitz

I meant all the others who are so concerned about the threat to this gossipblower when they have been ignoring what has been happening to Assange and Manning. He basically just put a report together with input from people who said that they had some concerns like what one does when they think a crime has been committed. And he is apparently back at the CIA headquarters. Why was he at the WH and who sent him there? I still want to know why congress is not insisting that those other people testify to congress about what they know.

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People are going to be sick for the rest of their lives and the people responsible will pay no price.

Sam thinks she’s a cat.

Anja Geitz's picture

@snoopydawg

and my answer wasn't directed at you either. Just to be clear

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

Shahryar's picture

@Anja Geitz @Anja Geitz

After so many years of being ruled by mob bosses we now have an uncouth one!

I mean, I liked John Kennedy but it's hard to avoid seeing that his father was an actual bootlegging crook. Wikipedia dismisses that notion in an unconvincing way. Nice guys like JFK and Obama were definitely charming. For the record I think Kennedy was quite a bit better than Obama.

But now we have a guy who might as well say "dese" and "dose" and "youse guys". A guy who today wrote

I used the word Liddle’, not Liddle, in discribing Corrupt Congressman Liddle’ Adam Schiff. Low ratings @CNN purposely took the hyphen out and said I spelled the word little wrong

jeez h chreesto! What an idiot! What a chump! I love that he doesn't even notice how he spelled "describing".

So we have a dumb mob boss and, let's face it, that's bad for business. They need a better front person. Maybe someone like Elizabeth Warren.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@Shahryar

Maybe someone like Elizabeth Warren

So how is having a better front person good for me and the rest of the country? It's still business as usual but with a better front person they have plausible deniability.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

Shahryar's picture

@Anja Geitz

I mean they need some Obama type in order to quiet down the populace.

I'm using "better" in the most sarcastic way. "They", the vicious crooks, need a front person who puts everybody back to sleep. Elizabeth Warren would do it. She'd keep the same policies going and all those who hate Trump would think it was grand, just like they thought poor Obama was forced to do unpleasant things but otherwise was a wonderful human being.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@Shahryar

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

@Shahryar

Some genius.
gee whiz.

I used the word Liddle’, not Liddle, in discribing Corrupt Congressman Liddle’ Adam Schiff. Low ratings @CNN purposely took the hyphen out and said I spelled the word little wrong

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@Shahryar

So we have a dumb mob boss and, let's face it, that's bad for business. They need a better front person. Maybe someone like Elizabeth Warren.

I've got an idea! Let's run a real Cosa Nostra boss for President! Let's run Michael Franzese!! Franzese/Warren 2020!

Wink

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"I say enough! If Israel wants to be the only superpower in the Middle East then they can put their own asses on the line and do it themselves. I want to continue to eat."
-- snoopydawg

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@thanatokephaloides

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

snoopydawg's picture

@Shahryar

Liddle help?

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People are going to be sick for the rest of their lives and the people responsible will pay no price.

Sam thinks she’s a cat.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Anja Geitz

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Shahryar

quite differently than Chelsea Manning, Ed Snowden, Mark Kiriakou, or even Thomas Drake. Probably because this whistleblowing is in service to the elites.

As far as a threat is concerned....as with the dangers of racism, election fraud, corruption, nuclear war, and global ecological collapse, the threats were well in place before Donald Trump put one toe into the pool of U.S. politics, and if he and everybody who supports him were magicked off the face of the earth, the threats would be the same as they are now.

After what happened to whistleblowers during the Bush and Obama administrations, how could any subsequent threat be needed?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Anja Geitz's picture

@wokkamile

You mean deciphering the cacophony of noise coming the media about issues that are relevant to our lives, as opposed to the political relevancy of 1%?

I think we 99% have a pretty good sense of that.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

earthling1's picture

the Dims could have done. Most voters did not know about Hunter Biden or had forgotten the plum job he got post regime change.
The corruption of not just the Bidens, but the entire Dim leadership going back to Clinton One will be paraded for all to see.
The Dims should have swept the whistleblower crap under the rug, nailed it down and stood on it.
This should end Joe's run.
What happens next will determine the survival of the Dim Party. If they continue to lock out Bernie or Tulsi with the plan to bring no majority candidate at the convention, invoking the superdelegates, then helocoptering in Hillary, I will abandon the Democrat Party forever.
I may even throw up and vote for Trump just to seal their fate.
If the Dim leadership continue to push Bernie and/or Tulsi to the side, I will encourage them both the get as far away from the Dim Party as possible as it will have become poison to any real Democrat.
We will have lost the Party to the dark side forever.
Will Trump benefit from this debacle? Only if the America voters have no Sanders/Gabbard or Gabbard/Sanders as a choice.
IMHO

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After six years, still getting robo-calls from Marriot Hotels.
They're like herpes.

@earthling1

The corruption of not just the Bidens, but the entire Dim leadership going back to Clinton One will be paraded for all to see.

Agree. It will add to the image of the democrats as a useless party. There will be no shift to Trump. People will simply disengage and not vote for anybody. Will hurt turnout.

What happens next will determine the survival of the Dim Party. If they continue to lock out Bernie or Tulsi with the plan to bring no majority candidate at the convention, invoking the superdelegates, then helocoptering in Hillary, I will abandon the Democrat Party forever.

If Bernie is not the candidate, then kiss any possibility of a New Deal Party Once Again goodbye. There will not be a political party with any cohesive ideology except for the opposition to progressive ideals and opposition to republicans.

I may even throw up and vote for Trump just to seal their fate.

Will vote for Green instead.

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@earthling1
that the Dems won't turn up some Trump criminality.
Unless they are truly incompetent, they should stumble over it by accident.
Hell, Trump's tax returns will be public soon.

What happens next will determine the survival of the Dim Party. If they continue to lock out Bernie or Tulsi with the plan to bring no majority candidate at the convention, invoking the superdelegates, then helocoptering in Hillary, I will abandon the Democrat Party forever.

Yeh, if they do all that I would agree with you.
But I don't think it is likely.

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snoopydawg's picture

@gjohnsit

Why did people go to a person at the CIA who isn't involved in the WH and is now back at the CIA instead of going to the DOJ or whomever is in charge of WB complaints? Going through a second party makes it hearsay which I stated in your other essay. But why was the CIA dude over at the WH in the first place?
Azazello posted an excellent video from Duran in my essay that you might want to look at as well as this one that has been posted in many essays here.

As Jimmy and Aaron point out there are many other things that Nancy could impeach him for, but she isn't even speaking out about those things. Why not? She doesn't care. Same as she didn't care about Bush's war crimes or Obama's. Besides this 'inquiry' is not a serious impeachment inquiry. It's just blowing smoke to get people off her back.

BTW the state department is looking into the Ukraine prosecutor story. It's a legitimate investigation. Trump had every right to talk to the president.

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People are going to be sick for the rest of their lives and the people responsible will pay no price.

Sam thinks she’s a cat.

@gjohnsit I think the noise about limiting the investigation to ONLY the Zelensky phone call is for the purpose of ensuring that the impeachment inquiry not only fails, but fails badly.

On a related note, it will be very interesting to see whether the progressive uprising succeeds in ejecting the corporatists, thereby transforming the Democratic Party into an actual people’s party. If not, the pellmell race to extinction will only accelerate.

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Unabashed Liberal's picture

@tle

have repeatedly stated 'why' they want to limit the impeachment charges:

They are convinced that their aborted attempts at fomenting a soft coup--commonly referred to as Russia Gate--failed ONLY because the Dem Base and other left-leaning lemmings couldn't properly understand the true import or significance of that scandal (their thinking, not mine).

And, they 'think' that Ukraine Gate narrative might be very appealing to some 'national security-minded conservatives' in the more conservative or red state districts that their intelligence (CIA/Military/State Department) conservadem US Representatives hail from. IOW, the almost 30 seats they picked up in 2016.

At least 7 of those US Representatives ARE former Deep Staters.

This one, according to Pelosi, Schumer, and Dem lawmakers (echoed by the corporatist MSM) is a 'scandal' that they think is simple enough for them to fathom.

It's simple - They believe that they can 'sell' this so-called scandal.

Mollie

“Dogs have given us their absolute all. We are the center of their universe. We are the focus of their love and faith and trust. They serve us in return for scraps. It is without a doubt the best deal man has ever made.” ~~Roger Caras

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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

Anja Geitz's picture

@Unabashed Liberal

Good to see ya! I'll bet you've been pretty busy these days in preparation for the big move! How are ya?

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

Unabashed Liberal's picture

@Anja Geitz

and, yes, things have been hectic--but, in a good way.

Thought about trying to drop by, and give a retirement update, but, since our plans have changed twice in just the past four weeks, guess it's just as well that I didn't make it.

Biggrin

Anyhoo, look forward to getting everything settled soon, so I can get back in the swing of things. (Usually read and rec OT's by end of the week, but, it's not the same as kibitzing with Everyone.)

Hey, the real question is - "How is your beautiful Miss Pierre?" (Or, should that be 'Ms'? Wink ) Seriously, I hope she's continuing to make steady improvement, considering all the solicitous and loving care she receives. Sending boatloads of positive karma her, and your, way.

Smile

Mollie

“Dogs have given us their absolute all. We are the center of their universe. We are the focus of their love and faith and trust. They serve us in return for scraps. It is without a doubt the best deal man has ever made.” ~~Roger Caras
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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

Anja Geitz's picture

@Unabashed Liberal

and hearing all the news on your end. I am thrilled to announce that Ms. Pierre is much better now. She is out of the collar and the onesie. She's eating up a storm and gaining weight again. She even dashed outside today for what I assume was a peak at the rain. She always loved the rain. Of course I ran right after her and brought her back inside. Sneaking up on her is much easier to do now that she's deaf, and obviously makes roaming around outside by herself not possible anymore

Here's a picture the first morning out of her collar and onesie. She was very happy, as was I.

Pierre greeting me in the morning.jpg
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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

Unabashed Liberal's picture

@Anja Geitz

and beautiful. Definitely looks like a super happy girl, which is understandable, considering what she's gone through, lately.

Also, I'm glad and relieved for both of you, that her medical issues seem to be resolved. Obviously, hope she continues to thrive. (Keep us updated, please.)

Don't know if you've ever posted the photos 'on the board' of Pierre wearing the onesie, and looking at the computer screen (or TV), but, they were truly adorable. You really should share them some time, if you haven't already.

Hope you two have a nice weekend. Maybe you can have a nice outing with her over the weekend, since she feels a lot better. Take care.

Pleasantry

Mollie

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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

Anja Geitz's picture

@Unabashed Liberal

She is my dainty little girl. Weighing only 7 lbs., she's the smallest of my three cats, and such a little "lady". When she walks away she sort of sashshays, and the fur on her legs makes it look like she's wearing pantalettes. She's also the one who has had all the health problems. I don't know how much longer I will have with her. She has a heart murmer, her liver enzymes are elevated, and she is afflicted with sporadic petite mal seizures. And she is taking medication for hyperthyroidism. So, I just love her everyday and make her as comfortable and happy as possible.

I also give her a lot of tuna Smile

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

Unabashed Liberal's picture

@Anja Geitz

karma/vibes in Pierre's direction. Smile

For what it's worth, (and I'm sure you probably already know this) if cats are similar to dogs, often elevated liver enzymes don't result in an immediate medical threat. I remember when our Miniature Schnauzer's testing indicated liver disease (elevated enzymes, and a relatively bad ultrasound test/reading), our vet said not to worry, the liver condition would progress so slowly that she would definitely pass away from another medical condition. (He was right.) If that's the case, perhaps most of the other conditions can be controlled and/or remediated with medication. I sure hope so.

Mollie

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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Unabashed Liberal

body-on-laughter.jpg

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Anja Geitz's picture

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@gjohnsit

will be matched by criminality, or at least corruption, on the Dem side, that looks so similar to what Trump did that Trump and his supporters will easily make the argument that they're throwing stones in a glass house. Which at least half the country believes already, and not just Trump supporters.

In fact, what Trump did, assuming he did what they said, is a cross between what Hillary Clinton did with the Steele document, and what Joe Biden did when he withheld aid in exchange for a rearrangement of Ukrainian politics and law enforcement.

That said, if you watch this, you'll see that it's far likelier that Trump was asking the Ukraine to investigate Crowdstrike and the DNC server business, and that that was the primary reason for his call:

Watch what Huffpost redacted out of their reporting on the transcript.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@earthling1 Since they've finally gotten on board with the "I" word, I'm sure there's plenty more stupidity to come from the Dems!

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Just another Bozo on the bus.

gulfgal98's picture

@earthling1 You speak for me!

The scenario of Hillary being helicoptered in as a unity candidate on the second ballot is far too real for me and she has no shame about it.

I want the Democratic party to go into the dustbin of history.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

snoopydawg's picture

@gulfgal98

This is a classic case of Clinton manipulations. Biden is the only dem candidate who could challenge her for the nomination. The clinton machine is the force behind the whistleblower complaint. She is only waiting for the democrat candidate field to thin, before she announces her candidacy. She gets to avoid all the debates and with there being no clear front runner who polls as decisively beating trump, she will be a shoo-in.

This is going to be the nastiest election season ever.

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People are going to be sick for the rest of their lives and the people responsible will pay no price.

Sam thinks she’s a cat.

Anja Geitz's picture

@snoopydawg

Are all over this. Somehow, when I think of Hillary these days, I imagine her hidden away at an undisclosed CIA dark site, with the bile of getting revenge on Donald Trump for being better at stealing the election than she was the only thing keeping her alive. And the moment she does get the revenge she seeks, her internal organs will shrivel up leaving only her skin behind.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

ggersh's picture

@gulfgal98 she does the cheney route, only one debate
to do, very little campaigning in spotlight, works
perfectly......She believes correctly that as VP she
can run the country, remember as SOS she did whatever
she wanted, so for her the cheney model is just
to good to be true, a match made in heaven.

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Irony at it's finest, buying stocks breaks WS!

NO MORE WAR

@earthling1 Please explain:

"We will have lost the Party to the dark side forever."

Most people on the left consider that event to have happened years ago. Probably with Bill Clinton's first inauguration.

Welcome to the wilderness.

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earthling1's picture

@davidgmillsatty
of "the party is gone/ it can be changed within" I believe it has come to a point where we have to actively work to destroy the party.
It has become a rotting carcass blocking the way forward. Some have reacted with aghaust that I would suggest voting for Trump (vomiting before or after), but as I have posted before, like alcoholics, we have to hit absolute rock freaking bottom before we can pick ourselves back up again and begin building anew.
My suggestion that Sanders and/or Gabbard move as far away from the U.S.S. Democrat Party and into the Green Party lifeboat is reminiscent of our flight from the GOS and finding refuge here.
While the GOS is still afloat, it has been listing badly for years now.
The bridge of the U.S.S Democrat Party is the only thing above water, IMHO.
Doesn't a Caucus 99% Party sound good?
We can dream, it doesn't cost anything.
Thanks, David, for the kind responce.

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After six years, still getting robo-calls from Marriot Hotels.
They're like herpes.

Anja Geitz's picture

Was because it was seen by half the country for exactly what it was. What do you think half the country sees this impeachment investigation after two years of futile Russiagate accusations?

Also, regarding Watergate, the country and the media is a million miles away from the political zeitgeist of 1973. Because of that, I just don't think the comparison is very useful. Regardless, I think Trump is going to beat Biden over the head with the Ukraine comments just like he browbeat Hillary over the Clinton Foundation. And while he's doing that, half of the country is going to see the "impeachment investigation" for exactly what it is, insider partisan masturbating.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

@Anja Geitz

What do you think half the country sees this impeachment investigation after two years of futile Russiagate accusations?

Let's be clear about something: Ukraine != Russiagate.
I have faith in the people that they can distinguish between the two (except for Fox News viewers, of course).

Also, something I've learned from endless, baseless charges/investigations/smears by the GOP: eventually people think "where there's smoke, there's fire."
Unlike most of the Republican scandals (and Russiagate), there actually IS something here.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@gjohnsit

That you have faith in a majority of people with the good sense to see this as you see it, is frankly not based in any reality I've witnessed since the last election. Seems to me, people are easily led, too busy, and generally pretty disgusted by the political kabuki show that is featured on the nightly news.

To each his own as far as opinions go about how this will turn out, I suppose. At least we know where you stand. And I imagine we will be hearing more of it.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

mhagle's picture

@Anja Geitz

insider partisan masturbating.

That pretty much says it.

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

Anja Geitz's picture

@Anja Geitz

Replied to myself by mistake.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

Wally's picture

Every single time Congress moved to impeach, the outcome was different than what the general consensus thought at the beginning. Also, only with Clinton did the impeachment help the president's popularity. It's an exception to the rule.

And like Trump hasn't proved time and time again that he's an exception to all the rules?

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@Wally Clinton deserves it after he and Hillary worked to get him nominated.

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@MrWebster
by the privates.

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I don't want Trump to win, but I do want the establishment Dems to lose due to their cheating and undemocratic practices in the primary. And I will do whatever I can to help that happen.

WoodsDweller's picture

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/09/political-earthquake-msnbcs-morning-joe...

A new Politico/Morning Consult poll shows support for impeachment jumped 7 points among all voters since last weekend, and an equal number of voters — 43-43 — back the impeachment inquiry, with 13 percent undecided.
...
“Almost 60 percent who supported impeachment,” Brzezinski added, “said President Trump committed an impeachable offense, a record high. Half of Americans say they back impeachment, up 3 points since over two weeks ago, and an NPR/PBS NewsHour poll conducted on Wednesday also shows support among voters of the house impeachment inquiry 49 percent to 48 percent.”
...
we never saw a shift like this back in ’72, ’73, and ’74.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/26/poll-support-impeachment-trump...

Among Democratic voters, support for impeachment proceedings has increased 13 points, from 66 percent in the previous poll, to 79 percent now.

Nobody ever won an election by doing what 79 percent of their supporters wanted. It's obviously a disaster. They would be wise to keep their powder dry for the day when 175% of their supporters want something.

Jeff Flake says 35 Republican Senators would vote for conviction today if it were a secret ballot (it isn't).

Cenk (4:44) says his sources say that Democratic donors are on board with impeachment. Think about it, Pelosi never crosses the donors, if they hadn't green-lighted impeachment Pelosi would still be stonewalling.

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"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone

Anja Geitz's picture

@WoodsDweller

Of polls the media lives for, which if you recall, have a history of not only being weighted, but flat out selective. I'd be really interested to see the cross tabs to that pool of respondents.

FWIW, I seem to remember a whole lotta Democrats at TOP who took skewed polls for gospel and bet the house on HER victory.

Establishment has gotta find some way to bring the country together for their benefit, don't they?

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

@WoodsDweller @WoodsDweller public support for impeachment, and so quickly. It took more than a year after televised hearings for a majority to support impeachment of Nixon back in the day. This effort is well ahead of the W-gate pace.

We will see if enough senate Rs come along. Odds are not enough will. But too early. Will clearly need maximum best effort of Ds to accomplish senate conviction.

But there is victory even short of that, as i've noted before.

One possible scenario, which I think is as likely as any: Moscow Mitch* receives articles of impeachment from the House, duly passed by a solid majority of that chamber, and then REFUSES to hold a senate hearing. Alleging bogus claims, it's all political -- the usual.

There is outrage in the nation not only from Ds but by indies, leading to a massive surge of D support in the 2020 election.

This could well happen. The Rs of this era are capable of anything -- they have no shame, no sense of what's good for the country, no respect for traditional constitutional norms. Mitch will do it if he feels the vote is getting very dicey in the senate for conviction.

* not a R-gater, but I like the alliteration and I find the phrase amusing

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Anja Geitz's picture

@wokkamile

For me, and the rest of the country?

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

@Anja Geitz that the day Trump leaves or is forced from office, the country will rejoice. Twice as much cheering, bell-ringing and dancing in the streets as compared to Nixon.

Of course there's a big assumption there -- that Donald does in fact leave when the law says he must. I have a suspicion he might try to hang on -- counting on the military, the police and them bikers to defend him. Could get nasty.

Would you support him if he brutally defied the law?

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Anja Geitz's picture

@wokkamile

Is Pence, or Biden, or (fill in establishment approved candidate) assuming the role as commander in chief going to improve our lives in a concrete way? It'll make us "feel" better? Gee, well, no need to advocate any policy changes for the country now that we got rid the establishment's fly in the ointment.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

@Anja Geitz much of anything good will be accomplished so long as Moscow Mitch is running things in the senate.

Possibly even thwarting a proper impeachment trial. Chris Cuomo tonight speculated that Moscow might simply put the question to the senate on whether a trial should be held, a simple majority prevailing.

I think this is a real possibility.

I noticed you didn't answer my question above: Would you support Trump if he tried to remain unlawfully in power after a proper impeachment and conviction process occurs?

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Anja Geitz's picture

@wokkamile

is the problem standing in our way of achieving good governance?

hmmmmm...I think you just illustrated why I'm not answering your other question.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

@Anja Geitz answered my other question.

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@wokkamile proverbial mouths here. We all have our own opinions and we are all entitled to them, including you. But you don't get to use your own opinion to infer what other peoples' opinions really are. DBAD.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

Wally's picture

@wokkamile

I recall getting stoned and having a grand ol' time with friends watching Dan Rather very seriously and solemnly announce Nixon's departure from the White House, hearing on the TV some police horns and laughing hysterically they were gonna get him and take him away before the helicopters arrived and he escaped.

It ain't gonna happen. It's just another Dem Party Schitt show. Enough is enough.

Bernie's messaging has disappeared pretty much completely on MSM. This is the supreme distraction.

The next debate will no doubt focus on all the bullshit, nothing about Biden, Obama, Her Heinous (->Her connections with Victoria Nuland and the Chalupa sisters are not even being touched upon by the alternative media).

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@Wally not the arrival of Pence but the departure of the Don. I might even consider, at that moment, going above my usual $50 limit on an individual alcoholic beverage of my choice and think about a fancy expensive bottle of French champagne, if that stuff is still considered real fancy.

I don't in the least fear the almighty Mike "Half" Pence. He has the warmth and charmth of a wet rag and is not remotely likely to inspire the Great Unwashed as the conman Donald somehow does. In the still somewhat unlikely event he does become top dog by default, and then decides to run in his own rightwing, he will be looking at 39% support nationwide and yet another new job come Jan 2021. He strikes me as a good prospect for a spot as one of those faceless, bland, Fortune 500 white male CEOs whose group photos we occasionally see, all the same types lined up, indistinguishable and eminently forgettable. Insurance or Bible publishing firm.

Re media coverage, was Bernie being covered prior to the past week? Not his policy proposals. And his name came up only as a footnote to the MSM's constant horserace coverage. The MSM's daily limited and superficial output is a continual distraction; it didn't need U-gate to distract the public from other important issues.

On the upcoming debate, apparently CNN/NYT and DNC have decided to make it a one-night show. That's 12 candidates on the stage at the same time. A circus. The overcrowded situation needs calling out, but I doubt any candidate will. A bonus for Biden though, as some have already noted elsewhere, as with more candidates it means, presumably, less time for him to create embarrassing word salads.

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Wally's picture

@wokkamile

. . . on whether it gets that far?

Or even up to a House vote on impeachment?

The victory celebration sounds more than a bit premature.

No, Bernie was not getting much MSM coverage but now it's virtually assured he won't get any attention.

Like the Dem leadership has always wanted, the corporate centrist MSM focus will be limited to attacking Trump, Trump, Trump. Fox will focus on Biden and Biden Junior. Not issues that most concern the electorate in terms of our daily lives.

BTW, I've never anywhere bought or even shared in the purchase of a bottle of anything that cost over $50. But I'll have my chaffuer pick up the bottle if you actually want to make the wager which I am sure you will lose. And my butler will pop the cork to serve me while enjoying some rays in a loungechair at the edge of my inflatable swimming pool. (Lawdy, you really stepped in it).

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@Wally have one moment to sleep perchance to dream without having it picked apart as unrealistic fantasy?

Anyway, on the impeachment odds: obviously much better for success in La Maison as compared with Mitch's Mansion of Horrors. And I have already given my likely scenario for the senate proceedings: if impeachment looks doomed, Mitch will allow a vote. If close, he will not. I would bet on enough Rs defecting or sounding uncertain such that Moscow will slam the door on an actual trial.

Re the Bernmeister: I am sick of hearing people make excuses and whine about the obstacles he faces. Welcome to the real world of Politics as Managed by the Establishment PTB. It's time for Bernie to get tough and engage in the battle. This above it all posture is going to get him Dukakised either in the nom fight or the general. Start going after Biden on his weak policy and past horrible votes. Get going organizing in IA and NH where Liz is taking the lead. The MSM coverage is always going to be awful. But it can be overcome and called out, perhaps shaming them into fairer reporting.

Re Fox: Interesting little split developing pro- and anti-impeachment the other day I heard of second hand. A morning show had on Judge Napolitano, who said Trump clearly committed an impeachable offense re U-gate. In the evening, Tucker Carlson had on that snarling RW former prosecutor and loyal Republican apologist Joe DiGenova who was all over the media in '98 harshly condemning Bill Clinton over an Oval Office fling, who said Napolitano was just a fool, nothing to see re Trump etc.

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Wally's picture

@wokkamile

Bernie has a great ground game in Iowa. I don't trust the Iowa polls one bit.

He'll do fine in NH, too.

Stating an obvious fact about Bernie getting screwed over on MSM is not whining:

Whining and obfuscating is what Warren does here:

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@Wally will need to stand up for itself on ridiculous charges like the sexism, if they deem it worthy of a response. It's not really Liz's place to respond.

ON the rest re Liz, I believe I saw that video posted here some months ago. I would think she needs to develop a stronger reply on the Indian stuff, one which can come closer to putting it to rest.

I doubt though if this is going to be the big issue if it's her vs Donald (or Mike). Impeachment issues, the (likely) down sliding economy will dominate. If it is either one of those, Donald loses big time.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@wokkamile

And don't know what's good for the country? What rock were you living in during the 2016 election when the Clinton's and the DNC hatched Trump's presidency?

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

@Anja Geitz and the DNC hatch a secret plan for Donald to run for president?

But yes, the Republicans, Donald and Moscow Mitch and the bunch of cultish followers in congress have no shame. They don't give a flying fig about the country, the Constitution, bedrock traditions creating stability, nor much of anything else except their political self-preservation and financial well being and taking care of their corporate sponsors.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@wokkamile

It isn't about the left vs. the right. It's about the powerful vs. the powerless.

And, yes, the Clinton's and the DNC hatched Donald Trump's GOP nomination with the media, and then turned around and put a gun to voters head and gave us a choice between her and him.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

But I have no idea how you think this is possibly going to help the Dems. I mean they are already proven to be utterly incapable of playing Politics, and any claims they make are going to only highlight their own hypocrisy in these affairs.

This is nothing but another opportunity for them to blow off their own feet.

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@konondrum I can guarantee that fly-over America does not give a shit about the impeachment of Trump. This will be seen as more east coast / west coast bullshit. Likely to reduce chances of winning in the EC allowing the Republicans an even stronger hold on the counties of the US, as if winning 84% of the counties in 2016 wasn't good enough. Fly-over America is so pissed off at both coasts that it would gladly do a deal with Putin to take out both coasts in exchange for a Fly-over stand down.

I am not exactly sure yet what the supposed "high crime and/or misdemeanor" is that Trump is supposedly accused of. Enlightenment would be appreciated.

And how in the fuck would these hearings ever get done in time for the 2020 election?

And it would be seen by the public as a Democratic ploy to deprive the Republicans of a competitive candidate for 2020.

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on 9/26: "Trump Pushed Ukraine's President To Investigate Issues Of U.S. Public Interest"

ZeroHedge also noted the interesting little fact that the "NYTimes 'Outs' Ukraine-Call "Whistleblower" As CIA Officer."

And Caitlin Johnstone pointed out the emptiness and hypocrisy of the entire desperate, foolish exercise: https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2019/09/27/msm-defends-cias-whistleblower-i...

… and some pretty good videos on the subject:

First, a lively, opinionated, somewhat longish back & forth between the flashy Jimmy Dore and the always sober Aaron Maté. Makes good points. FULL Story: Trump/Biden-Ukraine Corruption & Impeachment Media Ignores w/Aaron Maté

A more serious, objective and also long discussion between two indy journalists, Michael Tracey and Aaron Maté. Russiagate redux? Aaron Maté on Ukraine/impeachment

And finally (for now), Kyle Kulinski discusses “The Way Trump’s Impeachment Would Unfold, In Great Detail,” a 24 min video

I find indy media far more trustworthy than any establishment MSM. These are serious progressives, truth-tellers, who are worth our attention.

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Lurking in the wings is Hillary, like some terrifying bat hanging by her feet in a cavern below the DNC. A bat with theropod instincts. -- Fred Reed https://tinyurl.com/vgvuhcl

@laurel our attention, some were right about R-gate, and some are not always right on everything.

I prefer to do my own thinking, with occasional guidance and input and checking from some indy analysts.

And if I turn out to be wrong, I will courageously come back here and accept personal responsibility for the error of my ways. And for not having grown up in a large house with pool and view and a live-in singing nanny, which probably many of you enjoyed.

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snoopydawg's picture

@wokkamile

And for not having grown up in a large house with pool and view and a live-in singing nanny, which probably many of you enjoyed.

I grew up very poor and wore my mom's boss' daughter's hand me downs. Or clothes that my grandmother made for me. No nanny. Just the neighborhood gals that took turns sitting us.

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People are going to be sick for the rest of their lives and the people responsible will pay no price.

Sam thinks she’s a cat.

Anja Geitz's picture

@snoopydawg

Is confusing me. I'm not sure exactly who lived in a house with a pool and a nanny.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

@wokkamile . I had to rub my eyes and reread what you wrote a couple of times. But since you seemed to direct it at me specifically, I guess I should answer it.

Some are worth
@laurel our attention, some were right about R-gate, and some are not always right on everything.

I prefer to do my own thinking, with occasional guidance and input and checking from some indy analysts.

And if I turn out to be wrong, I will courageously come back here and accept personal responsibility for the error of my ways. And for not having grown up in a large house with pool and view and a live-in singing nanny, which probably many of you enjoyed.

It seems to bother you that I find it easier to trust and believe indy journalists than the corporate media. For one thing, most of these journalists are self-funded and also funded via Paypal or Patreon by their listeners, little people like me who give a few dollars a month because we trust that they will stand up to the establishment and speak for the rest of us, unlike the MSM talking heads who get paid quite handsomely for spewing the corporate agenda to propagandize the masses. Good ol' Rachel Maddow gets $35K a day for lying to the American people about things like Russiagate. Why wouldn't I prefer Jimmy Dore, Tim Black, Niko House, Kyle Kulinski, Michael Tracey, Lee Camp, Aaron Maté, Max Blumenthal, Vanessa Beeley, Whitney Webb, Caitlin Johnstone, Chris Hedges, James Corbett -- and others? These are people who do varying degrees of investigative journalism and who put time into following the news closely and then analyzing it through a populist/progressive lens. Most of them are punished by TPTB for speaking out on behalf of the people -- they are demonetized, shadow banned, shunned by corporate media. Chris Hedges and Ed Schultz were fired by establishment news organizations for telling the truth -- Chris told the truth about war and Ed told the truth about Bernie. A few of them may have family support, but most have to scramble to make ends meet. Their broadcast studios are usually rooms in their homes or, as with Jimmy Dore, their garage.

One reason why I watch or read these people is because I no longer have the youth and energy that they do to scout around and report on the news myself. Lefties who are younger than me are probably too busy with work and families to do all the news and analysis for themselves. But just because we listen to their programs or read their articles doesn't mean we don't also think for ourselves, you know? We just prefer them to corporate media.

As for what kinds of homes the people here grew up in, I would have guessed somewhere on the broad middle class spectrum, from lower to upper. I doubt that there are very many millionaires here, but if there are, well I'm glad they're on our side. There are probably people here who were very poor as children and some who still struggle to make ends meet. More importantly, most if not all of the members here are on the side of working people and the socially and economically oppressed. Isn't that what really counts? When I think of "rich progressives," I think of sold-out "progressives" like Cenk Uygur, Markos Moulitsas, Amy Goodman and all the folks at MSNBC and the DNC.

And since you seemed to direct your comment to me, I grew up in a single-parent household; my parents were divorced by the time I was two-years old, and my mother went to work every day to support me and my brothers. We did not own a swimming pool, and our view was of a residential street in front and a back yard with a small patio, a few fruit trees and flowers, and a clothes line out back. We had one car, and we were probably a bit poorer than our middle class neighbors. When I graduated from high school, no one paid for my college education, no one got me jobs or gave me money when times were tough.

So maybe you're not as all alone as you seem to think you are.

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Lurking in the wings is Hillary, like some terrifying bat hanging by her feet in a cavern below the DNC. A bat with theropod instincts. -- Fred Reed https://tinyurl.com/vgvuhcl

@laurel summa youse needs to lighten up.

Can't a guy get into a Sound of Music mood around here without people taking it so literally and personally?

It ain't personal -- just business. The serious business of trying to insert a ridiculously silly note now and then.

My small tribute to Julie Andrews and the sounds of yesteryear.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@wokkamile

Laurel took the time to answer your question, respectfully, and you just brushed it off by accusing her of not having a sense of humor? Newsflash; if humor is what you were going for, don't give up your day job.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

@Anja Geitz time to misread and take personally what were obviously silly and absurd remarks intended in a playful way, in order to launch into a long-winded lecture (an insult if I were a little more sensitive) about the MSM and indy media as if I haven't made a hundred posts here favorably citing indy voices and generally disparaging the MSM.

But are you her spokesperson?

Laurel is free to come back with a post acknowledging I just meant fun, or not as she chooses.

Meantime I'm going to continue to play a SoM soundtrack in my head as finally some welcome news has come. Maybe other musical tributes will occur as we march forward with impeachment and Donald, apparently supported by some number of posters here, is called to account. Probably the soundtrack to The Godfather.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@wokkamile

But what we "support", or do not "support".

Perhaps you've spent too much time fixated by the latest political frenzy and are no longer able to grasp the concept of objectivity? This isn't team sports. We are not either "against" you, or "with" you. I'm surprised that the level of cynicism and mistrust of the entire electoral kabuki show that a lot of us feel is not glaringly obvious to you. Might I suggest you dis-enthrall yourself with the media circus long enough to take note of the actual world, and the complexity of the people who inhabit it?

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

One of the unique aspects of the 2016 election was the lack of LOTE for me. Both Hillary and Trump were at the same time worse than each other. It was a Zen election.

I suspect the same will happen with impeachment. No clear winner or loser. If there is a loser it will be democrats in that for a number of months Trump and the impeachment will suck the air out of the room. And in the end the Senate republicans proclaim Nero innocent of all charges. Thus giving less air time for the democratic candidates to talk on issues and establish themselves.

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"high crimes and misdemeanors". Otherwise you are going to further fuel a raging political fire and wind up with nothing. People are substituting the fact that Trump should never have been elected President with a really weak complaint about a minor action. Did Clinton collude with Ukraine to torpedo Trump? Is the Pope Catholic? Are the Democrats screaming for an investigation of Clinton, Obama and the entire intelligence community? Naah. This is all political. For god's sake, Trump is totally unqualified for the job and his policies are a joke. But no, lets go after the subtleties of whether he coerced Zelensky to investigate Hunter Biden, or not? You will be dragging the corruption of Democrats across the TV screens of millions of Americans. I'm getting close to predicting a Trump victory, just like I did in 2016.

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Capitalism has always been the rule of the people by the oligarchs. You only have two choices, eliminate them or restrict their power.

@#3... The Dim Party has turned over the wrong rock and one of the creepy crawling things that will come out is the video of Biden bragging about how he got the prosecutor fired by threatening to withhold funds unless the prosecutor (investigating illegal activities by the firm where Biden's son is involved) was fired.

A few paragraphs from Caitlin Johnstone says it better than I can.

“The man has since returned to the CIA, the people said. Little else is known about him.”

"...So there you have it. A mysterious stranger from the lying, torturing, propagandizing, drug trafficking, assassinating, coup-staging, warmongering, psychopathic CIA was working in the White House, heroically provided the political/media class with politically powerful information out of the goodness of his heart, and then vanished off into the Langley sunset. Clearly there is nothing suspicious about this story at all.

In all seriousness, even to call this spook a “whistleblower” is ridiculous on its face. You don’t get to call someone from U.S. intelligence a whistleblower unless they are actually whistleblowing on U.S. intelligence agents. That’s not a thing. A CIA officer who exposes information about government officials is an operative performing an operation unless proven otherwise, because that’s what the CIA does; it liberally leaks information wherever it’s convenient for CIA agendas while withholding all other information behind a veil of government secrecy.

A Spook Doing Spook Things

A CIA officer who exposes information about CIA wrongdoings without the CIA’s permission is a whistleblower. A CIA officer who exposes information about someone else is just a spook doing spook things. You can recognize the latter by the way the mass media supports, applauds and employs them. You can recognize the former by the way they have been persecuted, imprisoned, and/or died under mysterious circumstances."

https://consortiumnews.com/2019/09/27/msm-defends-cias-whistleblower-ign...

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Anja Geitz's picture

@aliasalias

"...So there you have it. A mysterious stranger from the lying, torturing, propagandizing, drug trafficking, assassinating, coup-staging, warmongering, psychopathic CIA was working in the White House, heroically provided the political/media class with politically powerful information out of the goodness of his heart, and then vanished off into the Langley sunset. Clearly there is nothing suspicious about this story at all

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

thanatokephaloides's picture

Moon of Alabama writes: The Democrats' Impeachment Attempt Against Trump Is A Huge Mistake

Is it? Is it really?

Yes, it is, really. But not for the reasons being discussed here so far (09-27-19 16:09 MDT).

Any attempt to remove Trump from office prematurely is a mistake because allowing Mike Pence anywhere near the levers of real power is a SERIOUS mistake. Not only are we better off with Trump as President, but we'd be better off with Pablo Escobar or Al Capone as well.

I suspect Trump of doing this deliberately: make his Veep so odious that he would be secured in office by the very horror of having his VP at the switch.

Bad

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"I say enough! If Israel wants to be the only superpower in the Middle East then they can put their own asses on the line and do it themselves. I want to continue to eat."
-- snoopydawg

@thanatokephaloides Pence's name was popping up in the overall U-gate story. It's too early, it's just a few days old. It wouldn't be entirely surprising if Trump used Pence occasionally to go out and do some things Donald knew he shouldn't, as cover for Donald primarily, an extra layer of protection in the evidence, and to ensure loyalty from Mike. I think this is how the Mafia operates -- ensure loyalty by having a newbie go out and commit a horrendous crime for the godfather.

But there's no way Trump could possibly make Mike more odious than the Don himself -- are you kidding me?

If there is enough on Mike, he will be carried along with Donald, and both will go down, or be so tarnished as to poison the entire R party, unless they act to remove both.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@wokkamile @wokkamile @wokkamile

But there's no way Trump could possibly make Mike more odious than the Don himself -- are you kidding me?

No. Mike Pence started out "more odious than the Don himself", as you put it. Ask anyone who isn't a christofascist: anyone LGBTQ*, any atheist, any agnostic, any Pagan, anyone who fails to conform totally and completely to Rousas Rushdoony's bullshit "prosperity gospel" world view.

Trump is a chump and a blowhard buffoon. Pence is a white supremacist and a Protestant evangelical "prosperity gospel" theocrat. As an LGBTQ* Pagan without much Mammon, I'd rather have Trump any day of the week and twice on Sunday!

Bad
.
source

source

source

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"I say enough! If Israel wants to be the only superpower in the Middle East then they can put their own asses on the line and do it themselves. I want to continue to eat."
-- snoopydawg

@thanatokephaloides a chump and a blowhard buffoon. You forgot to mention a conman. And a very dangerous one. America's Don.

I see another movie possibility for director Francis Coppola -- Godfather Pt IV: The Final Chapter.

As for Pence, he's a lightweight going along for the ride. If he isn't nailed in this latest scandal -- something of a big If at this point -- and emerges to briefly hold the reins of power, he will be far weaker than even Jerry Ford. I have seen cigar store Indians with more charisma. A harmless Xtian nut job who makes even baseball exciting.

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@wokkamile
Mother would never allow it.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@FuturePassed

Trump couldn't make Pence go out and do bad things.

Mother would never allow it.

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"I say enough! If Israel wants to be the only superpower in the Middle East then they can put their own asses on the line and do it themselves. I want to continue to eat."
-- snoopydawg

@thanatokephaloides today. Although I for one don't credit Pence to Trump alone. Yes, Pence should scare the hell out of all of us, but that TDS works in mysterious ways. Then again, to me, it's just like ignoring the CONTENT of the DNC leaks and getting all worked up over who leaked them, works like a charm every time. And IF they were to get rid of Pence, Nancy Pelosi? My God.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

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