07/06 Open Thread - Zheng He's Third Return
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~~ Zheng He Treasure Ship
On July 6, 1411, Zheng He returned to Nanjing after the Third Treasure Voyage. So? This is one prodigious piece of a prodigious series of events. In context, it boggles the mind. This third voyage started in the fall of 1409 and went to such places as Java, Malacca, Ceylon, Quilon, Cochin, and Calcutta. Like the first two such voyages, it stopped and turned around at Calcutta. The next one, 1413 to 1415, continued on to Hormuz, and the final three, ending July 22, 1433 continued as far as the east coast of Africa. In all they visited many places, often several times, throughout the South China Sea, Indian Ocean, Arab Gulf and Africa, such as: Brunei, Siam, Southeast Asia, Java, Ceylon, Malacca, Hormuz, Aden, Mecca, the Maldives, Mogadishu, Brava, Zhubu, and Malindi.
CONSIDER: It wasn't until 1484 that Diogo Cão out of Portugal found the mouth of the Congo River. Furthermore, it was really a major BFD for Portugal and Europe when Portugal's Bartolomeu Dias made it all the way around the tip of Africa to Boesman's River on the eastern cape. The truly fun fact, as to the timelines is that Diogo Cão and Bartolomeu Dias were explorers, but not Zheng He. He was on a trade mission, and was following a well established Chinese trade route as far as Hormuz. Africa was a stretch, but the Arabs had been trading and more in Africa for some time and no doubt provided charts and guides. How Well Established was this route? Since at least the Han Dynasty, 202 BCE to 222 CE. Hello? 200 CE , early third century, hmmm.
NOW The Good Part The first of Sheng He's voyages, which sailed on July 11, 1405, consisted of 317 ships with 28,000 crew. Unheard of and unimaginable at that date. Phillip The Sap's great Spanish Armada consisted of 130 ships. The combined fleets at the Battle of Trafalgar contained 60 ships of the line, 9 frigates and 4 lesser vessels. Perhaps the Chinese fleets were so huge because their ships were too small to carry much? Bwahahaha. Those ships measured from 370 to 440 feet long and 150 to 180 feet in beam (width). Comparisons -
Columbus' three 1492 ships were 67, 70 and 74 feet long. Admiral Nelson's flagship at Trafalgar, the HMS Victory, was 227 feet long and 52 feet in beam. But, that was a warship, how about merchants? There was a period of great maritime trade between Europe and India during the 17th through 19th centuries. The typical East Indiaman was roughly 120 to 150 feet long. How about direct trade to china? The queen of them all, Donald McKay's phenomenally gorgeous Flying Cloud, launched in 1831, 420 years later that this voyage, was 235 feet long with a 41 foot beam.
This day in 371 BCE saw the Battle of Leuctra,where Epaminondas destroyed Sparta's military supremacy with an inferior force and a clever tactic. Though this tactic (oblique order) was once partial proof of his military genius, some revisionists now seem to assert that it was an accident or something, perhaps because both he and his crack troops, The Sacred Band of Thebes, were all gay. After his death the Oblique order disappeared from warfare until it was reinvented or resurfaced by another arguably gay commander, Frederick the Great. Fred used it with such an effect that Napoleon Bonaparte visited his grave and told the generals accompanying him "Hats off, gentlemen. If he were alive, we wouldn't be here today."
On this day in history:
371 BCE - The Battle of Leuctra between Thebes and Sparta
1411 – China's Admiral Zheng He returned to Nanjing after the third treasure voyage
1415 – Jan Hus was condemned as a heretic and sentenced to be burned at the stake.
1484 – Portuguese sea captain Diogo Cão found the mouth of the Congo River.
1535 – Sir Thomas More was executed for treason against King Henry VIII of England.
1885 – Louis Pasteur successfully tested his vaccine against rabies on Joseph Meister
1887 – David Kalakaua, monarch of the Kingdom of Hawaii, was forced to sign the Bayonet Constitution,
1892 – Striking steelworkers battled with Pinkerton agents during the Homestead Strike
1917 – Arabian troops led by T. E. Lawrence and Auda ibu Tayi captured Aqaba from the Ottoman Empire during the Arab Revolt. The Brits screwed the Arabs anyway.
1940 – Story Bridge, in Brisbane, Australia's longest cantilever bridge iformally opened.
1942 – Anne Frank and her family went into hiding in the "Secret Annexe"
1944 – Jackie Robinson refused to move to the back of a bus, leading to his court-martial.
1947 – The AK-47 went into production in the Soviet Union.
1957 – Althea Gibson wonthe Wimbledon championships
1957 – John Lennon and Paul McCartney met for the first time
1962 – The Sedan nuclear test took place scattering fallout far and wide
. 1967 – Nigerian forces invaded Biafra, beginning Nigerian Civil War
1988 – The Piper Alpha drilling platform was destroyed by explosions and fires.
1990 – The Electronic Frontier Foundation was founded.
2013 – A 73-car oil train derailed in the town of Lac-Mégantic, Quebec and exploded into flames, killing at least 47 people and destroying more than 30 buildings in the town's central area. Ah, but that's just the way d' ahl bidness works, y'all .
Some people who were born on this day:
Happy are they who expect nothing, for they shall not be disappointed
~~ Alexander Wilson
1766 – Alexander Wilson, poet, ornithologist, and illustrator
1781 – Stamford Raffles, politician, founded Singapore
1799 – Louisa Caroline Huggins Tuthill, author
1840 – José María Velasco Gómez, painter and academic
1887 – Marc Chagall, painter and poet
1907 – Frida Kahlo, painter and educator
1912 – Molly Yard, feminist
1924 – Louie Bellson, drummer, composer, and bandleader
1925 – Bill Haley,singer, songwriter, and guitarist
1926 – Dorothy E. Smith, sociologist
1928 – Bernard Malgrange, mathematician
1937 – Gene Chandler, singer, songwriter, and producer
1939 – Jet Harris, bass player
1949 – Phyllis Hyman, singer, songwriter ,and actress
1949 – Michael Shrieve, composer, drummer, and percussionist
1953 – Nanci Griffith, singer, songwriter, and guitarist
1967 – Heather Nova, singer, songwriter, and guitarist
1970 – Martin Smith, singer, songwriter ,and guitarist
1979 – Nic Cester, singer, songwriter, and guitarist
1987 – Kate Nash, singer, songwriter, guitarist, and actress
Some people who died on this day:
V = IR
~~ Georg Ohm
1415 – Jan Hus, priest, philosopher, and reformer
1535 – Thomas More, lawyer and politician,
1813 – Granville Sharp, activist
1854 – Georg Ohm, physicist and mathematician
1893 – Guy de Maupassant, short story writer, novelist, and poet
1961 – Scott LaFaro, bassist
1962 – William Faulkner, novelist and short story writer
1971 – Louis Armstrong, singer and trumpet player
1979 – Van McCoy, singer, songwriter, and producer
1992 – Marsha P. Johnson, drag queen performer and activist
1999 – Joaquín Rodrigo, pianist and composer
2003 – Buddy Ebsen, actor, singer, and dancer
2004 – Syreeta Wright, singer and songwriter
2010 – Harvey Fuqua, singer, songwriter, and producer
2019 – João Gilberto, singer, songwriter, and guitarist
2020 – Charlie Daniels, singer, songwriter, fiddle-player and guitarist
Some Holidays, Holy Days, Festivals, Feast Days, Days of Recognition, and such:
International Kissing Day (informally observed)
National Fried Chicken Day (United States)
National Air Traffic Control Day (Riiiight)
Today's Tunes
Zheng He's Voyages
Louie Bellson
Bill Haley
Gene Chandler
Jet Harris
Phyllis Hyman
Nanci Griffith
Georg Ohm
Louis Armstrong
Van McCoy
Joaquín Rodrigo
Syreeta Wright
Harvey Fuqua
João Gilberto
Charlie Daniels
Ok, it's an open thread, so it's up to you folks now. What's on your mind?
Cross posted from http://caucus99percent.com
Open Thread, Zheng He, Leuctra, EFF, Georg Ohm, Alexander Wilson, Bill Haley, Gene Chandler, Nanci Griffith, Louis Armstrong, Joaquín Rodrigo, João Gilberto
Comments
Hey, good morning
.
I love that Enya song. Have been close to the outflow in Trinidad and Tobago.
A very important river running about 1700 miles from Mount Delgado Chalbaud to
the Gulf of Paria. It is navigable by ocean ships for about 270 miles.
Thanks for the OT.
Zionism is a social disease
Good morning Cap'n Q. Thanks for the information, I know
of the river, but that's about it. I've never made it to Trinidat and Tobago and probably never will. Tried to go there on a cruise years ago, but it was prematurely terminated because too many passengers and crew got sick. Glad you like the song.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Trinidad was a blast!
Try to get there!
I was going to mention that the Chinese could go across the ocean with hundreds of ships, return safely, and we can't go on a 5 day cruise from Galveston to Cancun and back without everybody on the ship getting sick.
Such is progress?
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Spent many happyish hours
in Chaguramas, with a boat on the hard at a place with a travel lift that could handle her properly- it was only 85 miles south of Grenada, her proper home. Sailing in and out through the Dragon's Mouth was good fun. But trying to get all the bits and bobs that were needed for her refit was an interesting challenge (whose idea was it to power a gennie on a saltwater boat with a non-marinized Isuzu diesel, anyway?) Fun times, for proper definitions of the word "fun". Lots of electrics to sort out, as well as the cutless bearing and stuffing box, oh and the clutch and the gearbox, and several other pumps and and and, when all was said and done. Salt water boat. You know the drill.
That part of Trinidad is a war zone, essentially, what with the drug trade and all. A lot of very interesting folks hang around those Trini waterfronts, both there and Port of Spain, and the
DEA'sCBP'sSAUTT's (Special Anti-Crime Unit of Trinidad and Tobago) aerostat radar blimp hanging over your head 24/7 not far from there in Cumuto is a constant reminder of a) where you are, and b) who is boss.Travel does broaden the mind, even if that particular broadening was "maybe don't come back here unless you really, really have to." But still, having said that, I miss salt fish, shark and bake, and doubles. Especially doubles.
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
My stay was brief.
3 days of birding, visiting wildlife sanctuaries, and attending steel-drum band concerts. The fancy hotel we stayed in was right beside the capitol building. Many of the guests were there on official state business, so security was everywhere. I observed the President entering and exiting from his limo 2 or 3 times. The sightseeing and concert stuff was with a licensed tour guide.
I missed all the drug dealing excitement!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
I greased more palms
and paid more squeeze during that week than any other time in my life. And, as always, I couldn't begin to tell you which ones were the good guys, and which ones were the bad guys. Some things never change.
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
Hola otc, I assume you went to ASA Wright. That was our
agenda before it was cancelled.
be wll and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Yep.
We spent a day there. And an afternoon at the Le Brea Tar Pits.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Good morning UFS. Interesting tale of woe, but, you know
the whole "A boat is a whole in the water ..." thing quite well I'm sure. The cruise that was cut short was to make a one day stop and my wife and I had already arranged to head for a legendary birding location, and would almost certainly missed all the sturm und drang.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
For sure. I have to misquote
Briggs Cunningham's famous claim about motor racing to describe that brief era of my life: "The way to make a small fortune with a boat is to start with a large one". You do get some unique opportunities to meet some interesting folks, though...
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
Yeah, it was a brief stay
.
to make repairs on antennas caused by a loose outrigger on a delivery
from Brazil to Mobile. Had other boat crews coming by begging for canned
black beans or whatnot. Interesting folks indeed. Went back years later
to an all inclusive resort. Two different sides of the culture. A treasure
boat we were not on the first go round but did spread our cultures.
Zionism is a social disease
Good morning, el!
Zheng He was all that!
As is Enya.
Thanks for revving up my brain this morning. It helps me transition into working after a 4 day vacay.
The more I do not work, the more I love not working!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Good morning otc. Glad to be of assistance. I have notes
telling me of books on Zheng He that I should read, but I never seem to do so. Not much of a fan of Enya, maybe just due to minimal exposure to her music, but that song is definitely a keeper.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
What an adventure...
That few Americans know about. Their culture is much different. China didn't try to conquer others like western colonialists.
Thanks for the OT, and all the music!
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Good morning Lookout. Cal used to have some sort of
Chinese history major (or specialty within a regular "history" major), I knew a kid who was doing it. At the time I thought it a bit odd, but the more I learn of China, uts history and culture, the more I see that it could have been a wonderful thing, whether all that useful or not.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
It's not possible!
the white people got here first!
大家好 Hi EL, thanks for the OT!
I read Gavin Menzies book with his thesis that the Chinese discovered the Americas first. I understand after checking the googler, that the consensus is his theory is revisionist speculation.
Here's the cliff notes on Gavin Menzies’ book, 1421: The Year China Discovered the World:
Zheng He: The forgotten discoverer of America?
I'm not sure it was Zheng He, himself, that is the contended discoverer, but I'm not ready to revisit this. I lost my copy of the book. Menzies is an unconventional character. He once commanded a diesel submarine in the UK Navy.
Gavin Menzies
The discussion of Chinese strategy I heard a couple of days ago, presented the Chinese dynasty's withdrawal from sea exploration like Zheng He's fleet to meet challenges of land threats such as the Mongols. Kissinger's approach was to relieve the Chinese of the seaward threat so they could keep a closer eye on the neighbors on their immediate borders.
US allies react to Chinese ballistic missile test in Pacific waters
己所不欲，勿施于人。
Good evening Soryang. It is absolutely certain that the
indigenous perople(s) got here first, but exactly who, from where, and in how many waves is not clear.
I haven't read 1421, but am aware of cases being made that The Chinese and/or Polynesians and/or Melanesians arrived on the west coast well before Columbus.
In actual fact, the debate between Columbus, China, Polynesia and all that steadfastly ignores the fact that the Vikings were definitely here in 1021, well before any other alleged contender that I know of. Evidence keeps popping up that they were here even earlier and that far from being only at L'Anse aux Meadows they penetrated considerable distances inland. And, of course, the indians say that they did, but they don't have artifacts or photos. Such artifacts as keep popping up are quickly denounced as fakes of misdated or whatever, as if that will somehow also discount the fact that they had a settlement in L'Anse aux Meadows in 1021.
Now - the undated mystery. The channel islands off California were settled and often visited by local indians. This is a minimum of a 25 mile trip in the open ocean. It is alleged that their boat building techniques and skills are beyond their likely native ability and were learned from ???? way back in ?????. It is easiest to plug in the Chinese because postulating the polynesians raises the issue of where the Polynesians learned said techniques.
The indians have always been deemed to be incapable of all kinds of stuff, partly the European habit of treating everybody else as ignorant savages because they didn't develop European culture and artifacts, and partly to justify stealing their land and possessions and trying to exterminate them.
I don't know where this all goes except that year after year and decade after decade we discover that they did in fact know this or that or were able to mine and smelt X or have irrigation systems or something else at a very early age. There is solid evidence that They beat the Egyptians to the punch in many ways, for example. I tend to discount the idea that their abilities must be discounted, which means that the channel islanders may not have learned their techniques from any outsider, though it is also possible that they did. This creates a vast glob of uncertainty because they seem to have settled those islands as far back as 13,000 years ago. Of course, their baot building probably evolved over the centuries to reach the point that so many feel that they had to have been taught. So, if we assume that the Chinese taught them it raises more issues that it settles, like how they got there up until then and, when exactly did that occur.
I saw a headline saying that China's Missile test "destabilizes the area", to which my gut reaction is "NO, the USA's presence destabilizes the area and all else is a response."
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
My pet theory
.
Is a very old land bridge from RUS to AK may have been one of the sources of
civilization stock for the native tribes. I do detect certain Asian characteristics
thru-out North American natives, especially in the northern regions. Over tens of
thousands of years, they migrated south and settled ancient cultures. Fun conjecture.
Zionism is a social disease
I never got more deeply into it
than the premise that Mongols came to America, giving natives a certain skin color, facial bone structure
You'd think with our DNA testing, by now, we would know wtf happened, and when.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
EL, of course
...the natives were here first. Just kidding around. It's an interesting topic though.
己所不欲，勿施于人。