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Capitalism ?

In China there are a lot of problems, but at the moment, the Chinese, the party these days has proven an extraordinary ability to change. I make the joke, in America you can change political parties but you can't change policies. In China you cannot change the party but you can change policies. So in the 65 or 66 years, China has been run by one single party, yet the political changes that have taken place in China this past 66 years have been wider and broader and greater than probably any other major country in modern memory.

So in that time China has ceased to be communist. Is that what you are saying?

China is a market economy, it is not a capitalist country. Here's why. There's no way a group of billionaires could control the politburo as billionaires control American policy making.

So in China you have a vibrant market economy, but capital does not arise above political authority. Capital does not have enshrined rights. In America the interest of capital or capital itself has risen above the American nation. The political authority cannot check the power of capital. That's why America is a capitalist country. But China is not.

h/t lookout

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We know by now that oligarchs own the US government and use it for their own capitalist ends. No matter who wins the election, the government infrastructure will be used to benefit the ultra-rich.

If, as Eric Lee says in the above video, a government is not run by and for the oligarchs but for the people, then that government is not capitalistic. This assumes that the people in power have the greater good in mind. And that they define the greater good in a way that supports people and planet. It is clear that things can happen with great speed in China. Yet China is no different than any other country in its need for resources.

The difference is that the Chinese state-owned companies buy them rather than a US company. Whether oil is being spewed into the atmosphere by these state-owned Chinese companies or by US companies the end result is the same.

Ideally the Politburo in China would understand the urgency of the Climate Crisis. But there is little indication that this is a priority.

Call it what you will, until the world shifts from resource extraction there will be no gain for Gaia. Indeed, we are still ignoring the climate crisis and the destruction of the biosphere, all the while exacerbating the pandemic and ignoring racial injustice.
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[video:https://youtu.be/rvRCKgw2B8k]
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Right, and the political Kriminal KCharade Kontinues.

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The thread is open

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This is to say that this very thread is open for any and all comments about anything and everything. It is your Open Thread. It is a vessel from which your wisdom can spring forth, or some such.

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magiamma's picture

The Eric Lee clip in Pilger’s film left me with more questions than answers. Could this be a new way of looking at capitalism? I know little about the way the political system actually works in China. If nothing else, it is efficient.

China has shown how quickly it can move, particularly with regards to Covid19. The speed and practicality of their decisions were impressive. Clearly lives were saved because of it. And contrasted with the response of the US government, even more so.

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enhydra lutris's picture

@magiamma
quote.

Also, you are right, resource extraction (and exploitation) have to stop being the primary driver of our economy and our existence if we are so save the global ecosystem.

be well and have a good one.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

magiamma's picture

@enhydra lutris
Smoke is back. I cannot even go outside. Have to wear a mask with two screw on canisters I have left over from sculpting years ago with special filter. I look like a Portland protestor. May they eat the rich.

One thing after the next. Take good care.

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Raggedy Ann's picture

We all need to stay steady! The energy of September will be wild. Here's Lee Harris with the energy update for September:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdFi0TZCieg

Live in the present, be grateful, lay your love on everyone!

Enjoy the day! Pleasantry

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

magiamma's picture

@Raggedy Ann
morning ra. Well it certainly looks that way. So many things to deal with and more coming down the pike. Being here now is a roller coaster ride. Wheeee. Take good care.

Just got around to watching. Life affirming.

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ggersh's picture

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I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish

"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"

Heard from Margaret Kimberley

magiamma's picture

@ggersh
So sad. Love your sig line. Buy a Bible and burn it. Bibles do not give people the right to kill others. Punct. Have a good one. Take good care.

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ggersh's picture

@magiamma

Bible and burn it. Bibles do not give people the right to kill others
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I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish

"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"

Heard from Margaret Kimberley

How? there's only one.

This should be interesting:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mass-surveillance-program-exposed-by-snow...

maybe this will help Julian Assange, if our lapdog media wakes up and reports it.

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magiamma's picture

@Snode
The original article is from Reuters. So there's that.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-nsa-spying-idUSKBN25T3CK

Evidence that the NSA was secretly building a vast database of U.S. telephone records - the who, the how, the when, and the where of millions of mobile calls - was the first and arguably the most explosive of the Snowden revelations published by the Guardian newspaper in 2013.

Up until that moment, top intelligence officials publicly insisted the NSA never knowingly collected information on Americans at all. After the program’s exposure, U.S. officials fell back on the argument that the spying had played a crucial role in fighting domestic extremism, citing in particular the case of four San Diego residents who were accused of providing aid to religious fanatics in Somalia.
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“Today’s ruling is a victory for our privacy rights,” the ACLU said in a statement, saying it “makes plain that the NSA’s bulk collection of Americans’ phone records violated the Constitution.”

Thanks for this. Have a good one.

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"You can change our parties but not our policies."

Doesn't this explain the entire political theater jamboree? All Kabuki while the power is untouchable.

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NYCVG

magiamma's picture

@NYCVG
Indeed. Eat the rich. ("When the poor have nothing more to eat, they will eat the rich!")

Take good care.

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Lookout's picture

with climate change

China Is Set To Become The World's Renewable Energy Superpower, According To New Report
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2019/01/11/china-renewable-en...

They are leading the world with solar production and installation. They are also planting lots of trees.

The 50-year project involves the planting of more than 88 billion trees and the results so far, says Beiser, have been "amazing".

"You can drive through areas where they have planted just millions and millions and millions of trees," he says.

"I stood on top of a hillside in one place in inner Mongolia and as far as you could see it was desert land that had obviously been forested."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-17/green-walls-in-china-and-africa-k...

China has planted billions of trees over the past four decades as part of its fight against expanding deserts, mostly in its north. Each year, the country sows seedlings over an area nearly the size of Ireland. It is even sharing its desert-control methods with others as part of its massive Belt and Road trade initiative.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02789-w

So I suggest China is more focused on climate than the US and most others. Our focus is war and fuel extraction by contrast.

Thanks for the OT and y'all have a good one!

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

magiamma's picture

@Lookout
True. They are working on it and at the same emitting a load of CO2 etc. That said, there is hope. They can move quickly. They are smart and have from what I can ascertain, the interest of their country's peoples in mind. Still there is a great deal of extraction going on. Yin yang.

adding this from the new Forbes report. Love that it can undermine oil exports.

The continuing growth in renewable energy around the world is set to boost the power of China while undermining the influence of major oil exporters such as Russia and Middle East states like Saudi Arabia, according to a new report on the geopolitical implications of the changing energy landscape.

Thanks for all the links. Have a good one, be well.

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studentofearth's picture

livable habitat? It certainly is an acute question. One we are using now, in the past or a hybrid? Our current economic expectations are ruining the earth's livable space for many life forms as an unrecoverable rate.

A little more on China's current economic model by Richard D Wolfe

[video:https://youtu.be/3Tbf2bpgs-E?t=20]

Socialist or capitalist: What is China’s model, exactly? not a transcript but his article covers some of the main points.

A key lesson of Chinese development is that economic objectives are better met faster if a dominant social agency prioritizes achieving them and can mobilize the maximum resources, private as well as public, to that end. China’s party and government were that agency.

In Western capitalism, no comparably empowered social agency possessed that power. Private and public sectors stayed separate.

Ideology and politics generally kept the public subordinate to the private. The private employers’ differing particular interests and profit-driven goals discouraged many kinds of coordinated behavior among them as did their system’s structures of competition. Party and state apparatuses depended on corporate donations and corporate-media supports.

Thus, in Western capitalism, no social agency played the national resource-mobilizing role that the party and government played in China.

Some Western capitalist countries embraced social democracy (as in much of Western Europe). There states provided major social supports (national health insurance, subsidized schools, transport, housing, etc) that enabled some state-mobilized national resources for social priorities.

The less capitalist countries embraced social democracy – the more committed to laissez-faire ideology and private-sector dominance – the less they could mobilize national resources. The United States and UK are prime examples of such countries; hence their poor preparations for and containments of the Covid-19 pandemic and the capitalist crash of 2020.

Our Anglo-Saxon economic traditions and glorification of Roman culture shapes our relationship to our enviornment.

The Romans in their heyday produced nearly 17,000 tons of copper annually, more than would be produced again until the Industrial Revolution in Europe. With this enormous output of copper came pollution that would be unsurpassed for almost two thousand years when the Industrial Revolution began.
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The copper pollution of the Roman days still haunts us today. One former Roman copper mine and smelting site in Wadi Faynan, Jordan is still — two thousand years after it ceased operations — a toxic wasteland littered with slag from copper smelting. Researchers have discovered that vegetation and livestock in Wadi Faynan today have high copper levels in their tissue.

The Industrial Revolution: Picking up Where the Romans Left Off

Beginning in the late 1600s, copper smelting became a major industry in Great Britain. Copper ore from Cornwall and other areas and coal deposits throughout the country fueled the smelting of copper. An abundance of coal in Swansea, Wales made this coastal town a prime location for Britain’s copper smelting activities beginning in early 1700s. The copper industry drove the economy of this town. Wealthy English people often owned smelters, while local Welsh people worked as laborers in the industry. Just as in ancient Rome, copper smelting had its price. The town and once lush countryside surrounding Swansea was stripped of vegetation by noxious copper smoke that billowed from the smelter stacks and settled on the surrounding town and fields. Topsoil on denuded hillsides succumbed to erosion. Livestock developed strange new ailments like swollen joints and rotten teeth. Farmers blamed the smoke. The smoke also reportedly caused shortness of breath, decreased appetite, and other complaints in humans.

Heading out to do some fieldwork before the smoke and heat become intolerable. Take care.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

magiamma's picture

@studentofearth
I watched the whole thing. Everyone should put it on their to-watch list.

At the end he says there are two trajectories for the future.

• Nuclear war (He emphasizes that he is not joking)

• Working together.

hmmmmm. oh well.

Take good care and thank you.

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magiamma's picture

Reposting this here from Wendy's essay

[video:https://youtu.be/PIh4-sbCfR0?t=190]

75 years ago Hermann Goering testified at the Nuremberg Trails. He was asked how did you make the German people go along with this. And he said it's an easy thing. It's not anything to do with Nazism. It has to do with human nature. You can do it in a Nazi regime. You can do it in a Socialist regime. You can do it in a Communist regime. You can do it in a monarchy or a democracy. The only thing a government needs to make people into slaves is fear. And if you can figure out something to make them scared, you can get then to do anything you want.

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US average GDP growth from 2000 ------ 2.3%
China average GDP growth from 2000 ---10.7%

IMF estimates:
US GDP PPP 2020 -------------$20,289,987 100%
China GDP PPP 2020 -----------$27,804,953 137%

Cement production: (Basic material of infrastructure development)
US -----------------89 Million Metric tons 100%
China --------------2,200 Million Metric Tons 2,472%

The Chinese economy is nothing short of a miracle. They have built more High Speed Rail line than the rest of the world combined.

I had the opportunity of working with a Chinese partner who was building a small manufacturing plant using a few of my product designs. We compared costs. Ha! The US is no place to do serious manufacturing and it's endemic across all sectors. They have built an efficient environment to build a business, we have built an inefficient environment for the wealthy to rip us off at every turn, using economic rent. It has a huge multiplier because everyone we hire has to live in this environment. Then the government rips us off with their "protection racket". Pay for a ridiculous war budget or the Russians, Chinese, or the enemy of the moment will come and deny you your freedoms.
I really don't have the time here to talk about their government but I did spend some time there and talked to many people. My conclusion is that theirs works and ours doesn't. Their government is run by professional with degrees in engineering, ours is run by amateurs with degrees in law. I don't see how American Capitalism or "democracy" would be of any use to them. I asked the obvious question, why did the Tiananmen Square uprising never result in any further movement? There are three answers. The first is that the people are very satisfied with the continuous growth of the economy and the improvement of their lifestyles. The second is that they follow the news and look at the US two party "democracy" and realize that want no part of it. The third is that the government really is sensitive to the needs and desires of the people.

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Capitalism has always been the rule of the people by the oligarchs. You only have two choices, eliminate them or restrict their power.

lotlizard's picture

@The Wizard  
like the USSR or like Yugoslavia.

They saw that the West then would wring its hands about a humanitarian crisis while working behind the scenes to keep the fire supplied with fuel and accelerant — just look at the West’s “keep them killing each other, that’s good for both us and Israel” policy during the war between Iraq and Iran.

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As for climate crisis, you are spot on. Extractive economies are not the answer. I have been reading Marx for the past few years and have lots to cover yet. So far, I understand his solution is to go capitalist first and then to socialism. So it will be mass industrialisation and hence extraction(somebody please tell me it ain't so).

I think Indigenous people should lead the transformation out of this mess. Various indigenous cultures over the world have led sustainable lives(or something approaching it). And when they those people are loiberated, we all will be liberated.

I have picked the brains of my socialist buddies, most of whom have a very deep understanding of Marx. I brought up the above 2 points and mostly they remain mute, Or, grudgingly accept Marx was very Eurocentric (I think we can do this without dismissing all his contributions, the chief among them being his deep deconstruction of capitalism).

Nick Estes, Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz etc talk about Indigenous socialism. Think that is the way to go.

A funny reaction I get from some people when I say we need to drastically change our way of life if we are to survive, they go "BUT BUT BUT..... my playstation! what will happen to that?" Lolz! I mean, imagine if we have a needs-based socio-economic system (which was Marx's aim ultimately) - we all could be leading a charmed life without the need for iCrap(I own one), jShit etc. And maybe we'll be making music, playing games etc.

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Creosote.'s picture

@Funkygal

That's the first identity that has sounded right to me.

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lotlizard's picture

A message I have gently tried to impress on her, her sister, and their female cousin is that, in good times but especially in bad, their true riches will turn out to be the deepening bonds among the three of them — not the gadgets, name-brand clothes, or other lifestyle accoutrements a temporary bubble of prosperity has brought them at the moment.

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