Open Thread Friday 5-29-2020

A Look at China Part Six
Trade has defined the progress of Western civilization around the world. Measuring trade, negotiating treaties and trying to achieve the best deal has not changed.

After Muslim dominated countries blocked the overland trade routes only a few restricted sea ports were used for trade with the West. First English ships arrived in Macau in the 1620s.

At the start of his reign, the Kangxi Emperor (r. 1661–1722) faced a number of challenges, not the least of which was to integrate his relatively new dynasty with the Chinese Han majority. The Manchu-led Qing dynasty had only come to power in 1644, replacing the Ming dynasty. Support for the previous rulers remained strong, particularly in the south of the country.

Kangxi twice banned all maritime trade for strategic reasons, to prevent any possible waterborne coup attempt. Several rebellions took place, including one led by Ming loyalist Koxinga and separately the Rebellion of the Three Feudatories,[5] which led to the capture of Taiwan in 1683. Once the rebellions had been quelled, in 1684 Kangxi issued an edict:

Now the whole country is unified, everywhere there is peace and quiet, Manchu-Han relations are fully integrated so I command you to go abroad and trade to show the populous and affluent nature of our rule. By imperial decree I open the seas to trade.

By the 18th century, Guangzhou, known as Canton to British merchants at the time, had become the most active port in the China trade, thanks partly to its convenient access to the Pearl River Delta. In 1757, the Qianlong Emperor confined all foreign maritime trade to Guangzhou. Qianlong, who ruled the Qing dynasty at its zenith, was wary of the transformations of Chinese society that might result from unrestricted foreign access.[1] Chinese subjects were not permitted to teach the Chinese language to foreigners, and European traders were forbidden to bring women into China.
Wikipedia

A significant trade imbalance was created with the Western countries over the centuries. British high consumption of tea moves the story along.

The lopsided British victory in the first Opium War (1839-42) inaugurated what is known today in China as the ‘century of humiliation’. Put simply, tea helped launch the British empire while also setting into motion the long decline of China and the Qing dynasty. Only with the rise and victory of the Communist Party in 1949, the nationalist lore goes, could the original shame of military defeat and colonialism be redeemed.

China had been cultivating the tea plant for more than 1,000 years – a wondrous product of nature painstakingly perfected by artisanal masters. England, however, came to the contest with iron ships, powerful artillery and the backing of the world’s first industrial revolution. For scholars of European empire and modern Asia alike, it’s typically at this point in the story – with the rise of the West now firmly established – that the Chinese tea trade recedes from view.

But, in fact, the post-Opium War tea trade has some important things to tell us about the history of capitalism. Looking beyond the North Atlantic world, in the tea districts of 19th-century China in particular, modern capitalism continued to develop, flexible and globally oriented in character. Even in the Chinese hinterlands, we find the accumulation of capital dependent neither upon spectacular technological innovation nor particular class relations, but instead manifest in a new social logic of global competition. After all, the Chinese treaty port system implemented after the First Opium War didn’t spell the demise of the tea industry but its expansion.
....
The Chinese tea trade actually represented China’s entry point into global capitalism. Tea was traded, directly and indirectly, for Patna opium, Peruvian silver, Caribbean sugar, English textiles and Burmese rice. Such activity constituted the first truly global division of labour, powered by the regional specialisation of colonial-world cash crops.

Changes in trade have been rapidly happening since China reopened to the West. This series of chart

1980
1980 The US-China Trade War Who Dominates Global Trade (5).png
1989 - Tienanmen Square episode
1989 The US-China Trade War Who Dominates Global Trade .png
2001 - became a member World Trade Organization and 9/11 happened
2001 The US-China Trade War Who Dominates Global Trade (1).png
2018- last year in interactive chart
2018 The US-China Trade War Who Dominates Global Trade (3).png

For comparison countries impacted by British military historically.

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(19:40-23:30) Discusses trade imbalance and importance of currency dominance (hat tip Joe Shikspack) full video 28:20

________

Healthcare Capitalism

The United States and the UK were the only two holdouts in the World Health Assembly from the declaration that vaccines and medicines for Covid-19 should be available as public goods, and not under exclusive patent rights. The United States explicitly dissociated itself from the call for a patent pool, talking instead of “the critical role that intellectual property plays” – in other words, patents for vaccines and medicines.
...
Most countries have compulsory licensing provisions that allow them to break patents in case of epidemics or health emergencies. Even the World Trade Organization (WTO), after a bitter fight, accepted in its Doha Declaration (2001) that in a health emergency, countries have the right to allow any company to manufacture a patented drug without the patent holder’s permission, and even import it from other countries.

Why is it, then, that countries are unable to break patents, even if there are provisions in their laws and in the Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (TRIPS) Agreement? The answer is their fear of US sanctions against them.

Every year, the Office of the United States Trade Representative (USTR) issues a Special 301 Report that it has used to threaten trade sanctions against any country that tries to compulsorily license any patented product.

Author Francesco Sisci explores the question - Does China offer the world more than the US? Does concede bureaucracy was invented by China imported to the West by the Jesuits.

“When the PRC acceded to the World Trade Organization (WTO) in 2001, Beijing agreed to embrace the WTO’s open market-oriented approach and embed these principles in its trading system and institutions. WTO members expected China to continue on its path of economic reform and transform itself into a market-oriented economy and trade regime.”

China is accused of systematic counterfeiting, theft of intellectual property rights, and systematic misappropriation of technology, damaging the US to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars every year. And “the United States believes it is in the interest of all nations to improve Beijing’s transparency, prevent miscalculations, and avoid costly arms buildups.”

Beijing is accused of having broken promises, employed predatory behavior, and used the BRI (Belt and Road Initiative) to expand Chinese companies’ clout at the expense of non-Chinese companies.

Not only trade is at stake. “The CCP has accelerated its efforts to portray its governance system as functioning better than those of “developed, Western countries.” Beijing has made clear that it sees itself as engaged in an ideological competition with the West. In 2013, General Secretary Xi Jinping called on the CCP to prepare for a “long-term period of cooperation and conflict” between two competing systems and declared that “capitalism is bound to die out and socialism is bound to win.”

Therefore, “the United States does not and will not accommodate Beijing’s actions that weaken a free, open, and rules-based international order. We will continue to refute the CCP’s narrative that the United States is in strategic retreat or will shirk our international security commitments. The United States will work with our robust network of allies and like-minded partners to resist attacks on our shared norms and values, within our own governance institutions, around the world, and in international organizations.”

The American people’s generous contributions to China’s development are a matter of historical record. Now the US wants tangible results, not “pageantry,” the report coldly states.

________

A Look at China Part One Potential Conflict with China
A Look at China Part Two Documentary Series on development of Chinese culture
A Look at China Part Three Timeline of Christianity in China beginning prior 100 AD
A Look at China Part Four Century on Humiliation
A Look at China Part Five Players on the Path to Westernizing

________

Open thread all discussions are welcome.

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Lookout's picture

trade with China has been important. Their belt and road initiative is forward looking...and builds trade, while US aggression and militarism is backward and destructive.

I found this interview with Danny and Jimmy about Hong Kong instructive...
and found myself agreeing more with Danny than Jimmy. (33 min)

We want Hong Kong as a US colony.

Thanks for the OT and info on China!

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

studentofearth's picture

@Lookout Searched Danny Haiphong - he is a writer I am going to start following.

My Trip to China Exposed the Shameful Lies Peddled by the American Empire written January 15th.

The second meeting was put together by socialist intellectual, activist, and author Carlos Martinez. Martinez, this writer, and two other delegates met with Shuoying Chen, Professor at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences (CAAS) in the Academy of Marxism Department. Shuoying discussed the important role that socialism has played in successfully defending China from the tyranny of finance capital. While China has indeed opened itself to the market, the central government maintains full control over the levers of monetary policy. This has allowed China to “balance” economic policy in the interests of the masses. Shuoying explained that the central government has spent seven trillion yuan between 1990 and 2003 on the development of the middle and western areas of China to rebalance the disparities between the east and west of China and has spent seven trillion more since 2003 on the development of China's rural areas. Such policy priorities would be impossible to accomplish under the dictatorship of finance capital and imperialism.

As Shouying explained, China’s planned economy privileges economic rights over bourgeois political rights. A one person, one vote system is worthless if the people do not have food to eat or decent employment. China’s political system is organized to improve the economic rights of the masses such as the right to employment, housing, land, etc. The West, led by the American financial hegemon, claims to privilege bourgeois rights such as “free speech” but is really organized to enrich the profits of capitalists at the expense of the masses. Homelessness is near zero in China’s major cities but growing in the United States . Private ownership of land is prohibited in China while fewer than one hundred families own the majority of land in the United States. China has become the world leader in renewable energy production (which can be seen in the numerous solar farms, windmills, and electric cars that power China’s economy) while the U.S. subsidizes fossil fuels at a rate of over half a trillion USD per year . In China, the central government directs the market to grow the economy and then devises policies to improve people’s lives. In the U.S., finance capital directs policy to maximize profits in a great Race to the Bottom for most of the population.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

Pluto's Republic's picture

@studentofearth

On how to find Danny Haiphong :

https://caucus99percent.com/comment/491961#comment-491961

I find most of his writing collected at American Herald Tribune.

He is generally silenced by state/media in the US.

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Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted.

— Martin Luther King

studentofearth's picture

@Pluto's Republic The content is more complete than the link I provided earlier today.

I missed reading thread with your comment. Powerful discussion.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

CB's picture

@Lookout
in Hong Kong and in Xinjiang province (Uighurs) using their standard NGO and media propaganda mouthpieces. (It is impossible to get any truthful information from media from the Five Eyes countries.)

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studentofearth's picture

@CB plan. We need to add Taiwan, South China Sea, North Korea, Vietnam and possibly India as a few more. It is hard to keep up.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

Dawn's Meta's picture

been a lot of work. But it helps readers like me take in the scope of the vast history of this large country.

Huge mistake in my learning: after all these years to realize how important and how much influence in the world is China's.

Thank you. This should be part of a collection somewhere here. Exhaustive and nicely packaged too.

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A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit. Allegedly Greek, but more possibly fairly modern quote.

Consider helping by donating using the button in the upper left hand corner. Thank you.

studentofearth's picture

@Dawn's Meta while discussing British Empire, then TV and movies completed the picture.

Glad you are finding it informative.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

enhydra lutris's picture

to all of these so that I can review them and read all the included and embedded links and videos whenever I have down time. Today might even include some too. I've spent most of the week and, to tell the truth, the last couple doing relatively strenuous outdoor work, and very much so the last two days. Today I've been up since 6 and finally just sat down.

I've got two loaves of bread rising in the kitchen, ans out the window the wind is rising too. I'm thinking of finally enjoying my outdoor rocker by dragging some gadgets and tasks out to the patio and doing a lot of seated type chores and such intertwined with bouts of relatively non-strenuous activity. Of course, I've been saying that for over a week. All the same, time to get this series in one or more stashes and get all my devices sync'd so as to include them. Thanks again.

be well and take care.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

studentofearth's picture

@enhydra lutris when the weather is good. I am finding as time goes on I am less likely to stay out in inclement weather.

Have a good one.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

enhydra lutris's picture

@studentofearth @studentofearth

of bicycle commuting and frequent small shopping trips on the bike, in the early days of my retirement I continued the bicycle shopping. One day, riding back up the hill with a load of groceries in a light rain in a light non-breathing rain jacket I suddenly stopped and said to myself aloud "just what the fuck are you doing?, you don't need this." And that was my last ever rainy day ride, or even windy or cold. There is other stuff to do when it is ugly out.

be well and have a good one.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

lotlizard's picture

@enhydra lutris  
Sometimes the biggest barrier to enriching change in our lives is simply our animal attachment to the old pattern, the pheromonal nest scent, the familiar ways, the same watering-hole, the routes one could navigate and routines one could run in one’s sleep …

On the other hand, back in the Whole Earth Catalog and CoEvolution Quarterly days I seem to remember reading somewhere about Chinese considering their “golden age” to have been, not an era of great change and expansion and technological advancement, but a couple of centuries in there when, it was said, a beautiful virgin with a sack of gold, unaccompanied and unarmed, could have ridden from one end of the empire to the other unmolested, without harm to even a single hair on her head.

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TheOtherMaven's picture

@lotlizard

and his Mongol successors (the Yuan dynasty).

The Ming Dynasty threw them out and it was back to business as usual....

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

lotlizard's picture

@TheOtherMaven  
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
  Down to a sunless sea.”
— Samuel Taylor Coleridge

Nowadays I suppose it’s usually spelled “Kublai Khan” with an “i” …

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enhydra lutris's picture

be part of a collection somewhere. I can't do that, but am putting a file full of links in several of my personal archives. So, if you wish to do likewise, just cut and paste the following:

soe's China Series:

Part 1: https://caucus99percent.com/content/open-thread-friday-4-24-2020

Part 2: https://caucus99percent.com/content/open-thread-friday-5-1-2020

Part 3: https://caucus99percent.com/content/open-thread-friday-5-8-2020

Part 4: https://caucus99percent.com/content/open-thread-friday-5-15-2020

Part 5: https://caucus99percent.com/content/open-thread-friday-5-22-2020

Part 6: https://caucus99percent.com/content/open-thread-friday-5-29-2020

be well and have a good one.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Pluto's Republic's picture

@enhydra lutris

...that are reviewed and curated, so as not to become clutter.

@studentofearth's links to the China videos are ones I would nominate. They are essential to quality conversations about China. And this may soon be the only place such conversations can be had, if Members watch the films that reveal the big picture.

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Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted.

— Martin Luther King

CB's picture

In recent years, the U.S. and China have wrestled on several major international issues – from human rights to international trade – that reflect as much about their differences in political philosophy as the latter's rise. CGTN's Zeng Ziyi recently talked to Ajit Singh, journalist and contributor at The Grayzone, about what he learned from reporting on Xinjiang, the role of western media, as well as what he calls the U.S.' new "Cold War" with China.

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CB's picture

Global survey: China continues to win high public confidence

China has once again topped a trust index among 28 markets surveyed worldwide, with a record high public confidence in its government, business, media and NGOs, showed the results published on Tuesday.

According to Edelman Trust Barometer 2020, China achieved 82 points among the general population, four points higher than 2019 and nine than 2018. It is the third consecutive year China has kept the position.
...
Since the founding of the People's Republic of China, the country's GDP has increased by over 1,100 folds, and average life expectancy has risen from 35 to 77 years. More than 800 million people have shaken off poverty, he noted.

"As a public servant and an ordinary citizen, I feel quite encouraged yet not surprised," said the ambassador. He said that trust is only a logical result of the governance philosophy of the Chinese government that always puts people at the center.
...
The annual Trust Barometer is done by Edelman, an American PR and marketing consultancy firm. The survey reaches more than 34,000 respondents in 28 markets including developed ones like the UK, the U.S., Germany, Japan, and developing ones like China, India and Indonesia.

In the Trust Barometer 2020, the field work of which was conducted between Oct. 19 and Nov. 18, 2019, more than half of the respondents believe that capitalism, as it is now, causes more harm than good, and that democracy is losing its effectiveness.

"We find ourselves far from Francis Fukuyama's 1992 book, 'The End of History,' which touted the triumph of liberal democracy," said Richard Edelman, CEO of the company.

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studentofearth's picture

@CB It appears China has been making significant effort to build upon their 2018 trust levels.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

Anja Geitz's picture

I’m afraid I cannot add anything useful to your conversation about trade but having just finished a heartbreaking and horrifying documentary about China’s One Child Law, I see the dangers inherent in propaganda and indoctrinating learned helplessness of a society in an entirely different way. Flag waving Blue Team vs. Red Team adherents take heed and note the cautionary tale of what people were willing to do for the sake of what their government said was vital to the prosperity and health of their country. Sound familiar? Chilling to the bone what people are willing to do to one another.

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/one-child-nation-2019

As the movie lays out, the problem was attacked with not just propaganda but with action of exceptional ruthlessness. One medical practitioner talks of performing tens of thousands of late-term forced abortions and forced sterilizations over the course of 25 years. The details of these operations are discussed in such grisly detail it would be easy to mistake it for anti-abortion editorialization in and of itself. (Late in the film Wang discusses the irony of living in a United States where abortion rights are being restricted, which clarifies things.) There are other horror stories: a photographer and artist whose work was inspired by a photo of a junkyard he took in which he discovered the detail of a dead abandoned fetus.

~

What we learn is fascinating and troubling, albeit within a narrow range. Because Wang and Zhang did their shooting in China without any kind of official sanctions, there’s naturally no perspective from anyone higher up in the chain of command. So many of the operatives for the policy echo the same sentiment: there was nothing they could do to oppose things. The policy was “too strong.” There’s a shadow story here, about how an authoritarian government can, with the will and the resources, construct a ghastly policy apparatus so overwhelming it can not be effectively resisted or even questioned.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

CB's picture

@Anja Geitz

Flag waving Blue Team vs. Red Team adherents take heed and note the cautionary tale of what people were willing to do for the sake of what their government said was vital to the prosperity and health of their country. Sound familiar?

right here in the US to a much greater extent.

Trump now also bashing China as we speak:

https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/864538684/trump-set-to-discuss-response-t...

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Anja Geitz's picture

@CB

By a Chinese citizen who moved to the United States as an adult. It is a very personal story of her own family and the village she grew up in.

I did not view is as merely “China bashing”, but rather a very honest look at how that policy was enacted, and how it effected people’s lives. I’d suggest you view it for yourself before making that accusation by comparing it to Trump’s overtly political axe grinding.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

CB's picture

@Anja Geitz
in Chinese history and overstates the "horrors". The fact that this was released in 2019 tells me this 'movie' has an ulterior motive. The 0ne-child policy affected only about 1/3 of the population. Ethnic minorities, agricultural works and other factors made exemptions.

When Xi Jinping became President in 2012, one of the first things he did was work to change the one-child policy.

China reforms: One-child policy to be relaxed
15 November 2013

At the time the one child policy was enacted in 1979 the population of China was about 1 billion and rising at a rate of 200 million per decade (birth rate 6.3). It is now 1.435 billion and rising at less than 100 million per decade and slowing (birth rate 1.6). Without this policy it is estimated the China's population would now be approaching two billion and poverty alleviation could never have been attained.

Nanfu’s mother still believes that the one-child policy was necessary even after watching the film.

Abortions done in the 21st century are considerably more "humane" due to new drugs and surgical advances compared to the 1980's, even in the United States. I can give you some horror stories about abortion right within this country.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@CB

Of that period qualify as sensationalism?

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

CB's picture

@Anja Geitz

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Anja Geitz's picture

@CB

Is stemming from? Because I posted a comment about a documentary I saw about one of the consequences of living in a totalitarian state in what was essentially an open thread?

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

CB's picture

@Anja Geitz
"totalitarian state"? Give me 5 points to show how China is a "totalitarian" state.

Government of China

THE STATE COUNCIL - THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA

Do you know the history of China or just what you read and hear on US MSM media? It's history has a direct relationship to it's style of government.

Why does China have the largest percentage of it's population satisfied with it's government? Take the time to read the following and compare to the US and other so-called "free" states.

220th ANNUAL EDELMAN TRUST BAROMETER

The US has gradually devolved into a dystopian nation that only serves the wealthiest and gives lip service to the majority unlike China. The government of China understands that it must serve the majority if it wants to survive. They can never go back to the old days. It's population is too educated - both at home and abroad.

China and the BRI have eclipsed America and the US has no way of stopping it other than war and bombs - sanctions will not be effective against China. It will only make the nation stronger as they have done with Russia.

Now that Trump has officially accused China as the cause of over 100,000 deaths in the US, we will see a sharp acceleration of anti-China sentiment in the media lapped by the readily propagandized American public. Just as we have seen in every warmup to bloody conflict in the last 200 years. To see how easy it is, look no further than DKos.

But China is an ancient country and is very patient and it's leaders are not prone to spurious, ill conceived decisions.

Here's latest report on the Chinese government's Twin Sessions:

All eyes on China’s post-lockdown Twin Sessions
Ma Tianjie 19.05.2020

The key economic and legislative items to look out for as China's top legislators meet for the annual gathering, postponed by Covid-19
...
Meanwhile, deliberations on the 14th Five Year Plan (2021-2025) will start in earnest this year, ready for its delivery to the next Twin Sessions in 2021 for final approval. According to schedules released by national authorities, draft versions of sectoral 14th Five Year Plans (such as for renewable energy) should be available for comment in late 2020.

In a critical year for China’s political and economic calendar, the pandemic has created unprecedented disruption. The coming week will demonstrate how China plans to pull itself back on track, with outcomes that will have far-reaching global consequences.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@CB

That China has an authoritarian government, we are unlikely to agree on anything else. And you are as likely to convince me otherwise, as I am to convince you of anything else in regards to this subject.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

CB's picture

@Anja Geitz
That's one hell of a lot worse descriptor than "authoritarian". I could call the US government "authoritarian" by the way BOTH sides of the political leadership cabal in Washington are running controlling the government. It appears to be much less transparent than China's.

The following is a press conference by Premier Li Keqiang. Compare to Trump.

The Third Session of the 13th National People’s Congress held a press conference at the Great Hall of the People on the afternoon of May 28, 2020. In his opening remarks to Chinese and foreign reporters, Premier Li Keqiang thanked journalists for covering the NPC and CPPCC Sessions at an unusual time and despite extraordinary circumstances. He noted that although containment protocols required the press conference to be held via video link, that would not impede communication.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@CB

Not interested in splitting hairs when my original point that there were consequences to China’s policies were dismissed out of hand. And as I said to SOE down thread, if an honest discussion were truly being made here about China’s One Child policy, someone would have to address the consequences of such a policy. No one here has done that.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

studentofearth's picture

@Anja Geitz impacts on individuals, local province and international adoptions. The 4 videos from 2010 supplied in my reply were from the perspective of Chinese policy makers.

One of the major concerns expressed in the videos was population exceeding the food supply. They had experienced a tragic famine 20 years earlier.

The policies that led to starvation

The idea that the famine was the fruit of human folly, or of iron-fisted ambition, is still hotly debated in China. Many hardline supporters of the Communist party maintain that violent weather had ravaged the countryside, leaving stomachs empty. The yearly cycle of droughts and floods were particularly brutal, they say.

Mao personally rejects that interpretation as a "lie". The famine cannot simply be boiled down to "three years of natural disasters", as it is commonly referred to in China.

Poor governance, not just thin supplies, led to the famine, he insists.

His voice starts to warble as he recounts how warning signs were ignored and critical voices were suppressed.

In the lead-up to the famine, Mao Zedong had called on China to rapidly industrialise, as part of a plan called the 'Great Leap Forward'. The aim was to speed past the United Kingdom's industrial output in 15 years and surpass the United States in 30. China was going to climb to the top of the global stage in record time.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@studentofearth

From the perspective of the policy makers. Which I think would be analogous to listening to policy makers any where in the world tell us why they implemented the policies they did. Any discussion of consequences is usually focused exclusively on the benefits of such policies. Which isn’t the conversation I am having.

But you’re right. That discussion does deserve its own essay and since I seem to be the only one on this thread interested in that discussion, I could always begin one in my OT. Is that what you’re saying?

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

studentofearth's picture

@Anja Geitz regular diary or Open Thread diary. It will be some time before a space opens up in my Open Thread schedule to focus on the subjects from the discussion thread you began Friday in this diary.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
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CB's picture

@Anja Geitz
especially when one is dealing in propaganda. The China you think you know no longer exists. The China of the One Child Policy is gone. The China of today has a completely different style government that values women, children, family and the elderly in high regard if you look to the policies the government has enacted in support of them. Are there problems and difficulties - yes. But every year I see them trying to rectify them. That is why the Chinese citizens hold their government in high regard - year by year they see definite improvements in their lives.

Is the country somewhat autocratic, yes, by definition.

List of forms of government

This article lists forms of government and political systems, according to a series of different ways of categorizing them. The systems listed are not mutually exclusive, and often have overlapping definitions.

Federation A federation (also known as a federal state) is a political entity characterized by a union of partially self-governing states or regions under a central (federal) government. In a federation, the self-governing status of the component states, as well as the division of power between them and the central government, is typically constitutionally entrenched and may not be altered by a unilateral decision of either party, the states or the federal political body. Alternatively, federation is a form of government in which sovereign power is formally divided between a central authority and a number of constituent regions so that each region retains some degree of control over its internal affairs.

  • United States
  • Mexico
  • Canada
  • Russia
  • Australia
  • India

Unitary State A unitary state is a state governed as a single power in which the central government is ultimately supreme and any administrative divisions (sub-national units) exercise only the powers that the central government chooses to delegate. The majority of states in the world have a unitary system of government. Of the 193 UN member states, 165 are governed as unitary states.

  • China
  • Indonesia
  • Philippines
  • France
  • Egypt

Interesting item at the link. Would the following be descriptive of where the US is heading with it's rampant, out of control capitalism?

Minarchism A variant of capitalism which advocates for the State to exist solely to provide a very small number of services. A popular model of the State proposed by minarchists is known as the night-watchman state, in which the only governmental functions are to protect citizens from aggression, theft, breach of contract, and fraud as defined by property laws, limiting it to three institutions: the military, the police, and courts.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@CB

Has no tolitarian police state going after the citizens of Hong Kong? Because the media you get your information from has told you so, while the media the rest of us get our information from is evil and wicked? Which would be a first because from my experience all media has an agenda and a bias, including the ones you get your information from.

I just commented somewhere on this thread that there’s a reason I do as little commenting on this site as I do, and this pointless conversation just reminded me why.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

CB's picture

@Anja Geitz
in Hong Kong.

Color Revolution In Hong Kong: USA Vs. China

Western “Progressives” Support Yet Another Color Revolution in Hong Kong

Police in Hong Kong Brutalized by Rioters, While Attacked by the Western Press

The Anglo-American Origins of Color Revolutions & NED

“What The Hell Is Happening In Hong Kong?”

When have you got the truth from US media about the shit the government has been up to in foreign nations for the last hundred years?

I'll leave you with this:

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Anja Geitz's picture

@CB

Your efforts have not been in vain. Hallelujah.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

studentofearth's picture

@CB I will watch this evening.

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--When the opening appears release yourself.

Anja Geitz's picture

@CB

ever be regarded as humane if they are being conducted against the mothers will?

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

Cassiodorus's picture

@Anja Geitz It's about that topic.

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"There is no good future for the US if neoliberalism, and neoliberal elites, continue to rule." -- Ian Welsh

Anja Geitz's picture

@Cassiodorus

For the recommendation.

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studentofearth's picture

@Anja Geitz Any moral outrage I might feel against the country as a whole, compared to the United States, is easily negated by our own policies of forced sterilization, still not completely stopped. The Chinese targeted their largest ethnic population in urban areas (the Han) to a One Child Policy (1985-2015). At the peak 22 exceptions were allowed to have multiple children, in some cases up to 3 or 4. Enforcement did vary across the country as each province had local responsibilities.

General discussions of policy or community often does not include the negative impact different individuals experience.

Over 30 states had formal programs for sterilization last century. The higher percentage of Native American blood a woman had increased her risk of sterilization by compulsion or persuasion. Between 1970 and 1976 25% to 50% of Native American women may have been sterilized. (longer article) There are reports of of continuing forced sterilizations in the recent past in California prisons. I expect to see additional breaking news stories in the future as it takes time for victims to come forward and their stories believed.

This series on population issues, including One Child Policy, was created in 2010 by CCTV. It opens up part of the their thought process behind population issues.

discusses reduced birthrate 4:47 to 8:55 (9:55)

8:39 begins discussion of One Child Policy (10:04)

continues through 3:47 (10:01)

(10:17)

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--When the opening appears release yourself.

Pluto's Republic's picture

@studentofearth

...was the most effective and courageous step that any nation has ever taken to mitigate climate change caused by unsustainable resource over-consumption as a result of over-population. China could serve as an example to all nations. To save this planet — which is dying of over-population and nothing more — all nations should have embarked on a One Child policy. The fossil fuel industry was always a symptom, not the cause.

No other form of mitigation can have any effect on the real cause — the deadly, animalistic, self-centered mindset that spurs on the mindless breeding that causes over-population and planetary doom. A sentient species that refuses to see this is definitely not a fit species for continued evolution. It is an uncontrolled agent of destruction that must be eradicated to make room for a better candidate. This is a built-in test that weeds out unsuitable species. With the exception of the most intelligent subset, the Chinese, Homo sapiens has failed.

I once thought that China would save all of us. But I now believe the lesser majority of the species will find a way to destroy them before they can mount a rescue.

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Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted.

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studentofearth's picture

@Pluto's Republic of customers and large employment pool to keep wages down. More profits and more earth destruction.

My hope for the future prosperity of species with our current lifestyle is very pessimistic. We may be back to small hunter gather groups rebuilding new civilizations with different creation stories.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

@studentofearth

But the brain defect that prevents humans from thinking and perceiving holistically with the planet is a permanent block to evolution. This is not a matter of reform. It is a biological fail.

A new atmosphere will envelop the planet, one that likely rules out Homo sapiens and most large mammals. Sentience will come through much differently next time.

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Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted.

— Martin Luther King

studentofearth's picture

@Pluto's Republic
edited spelling

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lotlizard's picture

@Pluto's Republic  
Maybe a cephalopod mollusc species will figure something out.

It’s time for that black monolith thingy to intervene again, or something like it.

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studentofearth's picture

@lotlizard outside water.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@Pluto's Republic

The other is how that policy was implemented. Theory is fine. Until women were denied autonomy over their own bodies, untold thousand of late term fetuses show up in garbage dumps, and children become a lucrative trade, stolen all over China and sold to unsuspecting wealthy Europeans and Americans for a handsome profit.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

Pluto's Republic's picture

@Anja Geitz

Prevention was always possible.

Enforcement is always a failure.

The species is flawed that way, and not really viable. Hence the planetary destruction. In every way, mammals were a poor choice for sentience. The more we evolve, the worse choices we make at the top. They all lead to global destruction, or mass suicide.

The people, as a whole, make this inevitable.

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Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@Pluto's Republic

Second children born or aborted in very poor villages were conceived when the first child was a girl. Dispensing birth control, from a purely logical view, only deals with the issue from a scientific lens. Changing centuries of deeply imbedded gender biases made compliance much more complicated. How many women in those household had a choice? How many of those same women were tied down on gurneys, kicking and screaming, while doctors performed abortions on 8 month old fetuses who were still alive when they came out of the womb? Too many.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

Pluto's Republic's picture

@Anja Geitz

They came out of generations of poverty and over-population with scarce resources to keep them alive.

Be sure your Western version of the story matches the historic reality.

The one child policy was introduced in 1979 (after a decade-long two-child policy), modified beginning in the mid 1980s to allow rural parents a second child if the first was a daughter, and then lasted three more decades before the government announced in late 2015 a reversion to a two-child limit for all of China.

But now, China has just announced that their long term goal has been achieved:

By the end of 2020, poverty will be eradicated throughout all of China. One hundred percent of China will be poverty free.

China's poverty eradication efforts over the last four decades have yielded groundbreaking results – with over 850 million Chinese having risen above the poverty threshold, contributing to a 70-percent reduction in global poverty – and its model is something that could be emulated by other countries, said global poverty advocacy group ONE Campaign.

"One of the biggest reasons why you see many African countries looking east… is the simple reason there is that we could learn a whole lot," ONE Campaign's Edwin Ikhuoria, executive director of the African chapter of the global movement to end extreme poverty and preventable disease by 2030, told CGTN.

Despite the social and economic challenges brought about by the COVID-19 pandemic, the Chinese government has stuck to its target of eliminating poverty for rural population in China by the end of 2020.

Last week, at the opening of the National People's Congress, Chinese Premier Li Keqiang reiterated this priority in the government's 2020 work report, saying that eliminating poverty is an obligatory task that must be completed in order to build a moderately prosperous society.

Ikhuoria said that one key aspect of China's model is focusing on general economic growth to lift its population out of poverty, and a strong government focus on investing in health, education and the social sector.

"So this is a lesson we can be learning to make sure that as people prosper or as the general economy prospers... (this) does not lead to more poor people getting poorer. And the only way that can happen is by creating good health infrastructure and good education infrastructure," he explained. Breaking down the divide in infrastructure between rural and urban areas is a critical investment, Ikhuoria added.

Ikhuoria also stressed that the role of the government is vital to China's successes.

China is poised to deliver on the United Nations Sustainable Development Goal to end poverty by 2030, 10 years ahead of schedule.

The country saw the number of impoverished rural residents decline from nearly 770 million in late 1978 to 5.51 million by the end of 2019, as shown by data from China's National Bureau of Statistics. The poverty headcount ratio dropped to 0.6 percent from 97.5 percent during the period.

Meanwhile, China Agricultural University Associate Professor Zhang Chuanhong said that the pandemic has severely hit rural industries, especially tourism and production industries that were established in poverty-stricken rural areas in China.

"But fortunately in China... the pandemic is almost over," she said.

However, she said the pandemic has also brought opportunities for farmers to diversify their livelihoods, citing examples of farmers using e-commerce to market their products.

On the government targets to eliminate poverty, Zhang said while it was important to hit the 2020 targets, it is more important to make sure that those who are lifted above poverty line do not fall back into poverty.

"If you look at China's poverty strategy, it is government led. And the government put huge efforts for poverty reduction. And by the end of this year, we will all achieve 'xiaokang'. That means we will eliminate extreme poverty in all areas.”

China's target of achieving "xiaokang", translated to building a 'moderately prosperous society' in all respects, is to reach a status in 2020 whereby people living in the country are neither rich nor poor but have sufficient living necessities to pursue a better life.

"To avoid these people from returning to poverty is a big issue for China now," said Zhang. However she said that the government has significantly narrowed the infrastructure gap between rural and urban areas, creating industries and job opportunities.

"So the huge investment is already there. And for the next step, we think we have the facility to attract investment, to develop industry, and to find other opportunities for farmers to live on their own," said Zhang.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@Pluto's Republic

Or governing structure has been invented that isn’t a mix of benefits and consequences, corruption and greed. For anyone to state otherwise utterly baffles me.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

Pluto's Republic's picture

@Anja Geitz

a mix of benefits and consequences

This has been true of all decrees emanating from top-down leadership throughout human history.

If the goal of the law is to create a future benefit for the greater good of all,

Those who resist and those who do not conform, will suffer consequences.

This seems to be universal in humans societies.

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Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted.

— Martin Luther King

lotlizard's picture

@Pluto's Republic  
My heart goes out to the country kids in Zhang Zimou’s movie Not One Less, where the big temptation is to run away to the city to try to earn more money.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@studentofearth

The argument that “other nations do it as well” does not mitigate the fetal genocide that took place against a women’s will . Regardless of where, and regardless of the merit of the policy. To ignore that is simply denying our own humanity.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

studentofearth's picture

@Anja Geitz China than my own country over similar policies toward reproduction. The reasoning behind those policies are not the same. To work on stopping or preventing them from reoccurring will require different responses.

The quotes included in your comment reference a lack of information or perspective from anyone other than those in the director's home province. I provided some. If the additional information is not relevant no problem.

What we learn is fascinating and troubling, albeit within a narrow range. Because Wang and Zhang did their shooting in China without any kind of official sanctions, there’s naturally no perspective from anyone higher up in the chain of command.

The author of the review at rogerebert.com must not have been aware news programs and various print articles have been regularly discussing the One Child Policy and adoptions from China since the early 1980's.

There was only limited awareness of such a policy the United States, where it was a weird kind of "Believe It or Not" factoid—“Hey in China you’re only allowed to have one kid, how weird is that?” But a new film co-directed and narrated by a filmmaker who was born in China during that period, and subsequently emigrated to the United States, sheds an often cringe-inducing light on the cruel logistics and tactics with which this policy was enacted.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@studentofearth

Having to argue that the draconian implementation of this policy had a real emotional cost on the people of China. Who are you people? Is the lens so narrow here that any critique on totalitarian governments is completely dismissed out of hand? I give up. I can’t expend the energy on this anymore.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

studentofearth's picture

@Anja Geitz The give and take of new information provides a more robust picture of a complex nation. Each of us has a different ways of processing information before making a judgement. Some research has shown once we make a judgement the tendency is only to accept new information that reinforces the judgement and ignore the rest.

I have no problem with your or the movie's information, opinions and apparent judgements on China. I am simply reserving the right to set aside forming or stating a judgement at this time.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@studentofearth

Chalking off my discussion as one derived by someone who has not done “sufficient” research and thereby is limited to nursing their own prejudices. I’ve been reading these essays extolling the virtues of China’s economic policies for months now. I get it. In the utter absence of our own government taking the long view of promoting prosperity for all it’s citizens, China’s forward thinking policies look mighty awesome. I’m not arguing that they are not. But the policies are being made in an authoritarian government, where such policies are much more efficient to implement than within a government that is still holding on to the appearance of democratic governing. Even if the US were to recognize a population problem here, how exactly would implementing that even look like? If an honest discussion were truly being made here about that policy, someone would have to address the consequences of such a policy. No one here has done that. Perhaps my initial comment could have been couched in a more conciliatory tone, and maybe that would’ve been possible. But I guess we’ll never know now.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

studentofearth's picture

@Anja Geitz for discussion in your reply and deserve their own diary. I am going to focus my response to the question you included.

Even if the US were to recognize a population problem here, how exactly would implementing that even look like? If an honest discussion were truly being made here about that policy, someone would have to address the consequences of such a policy. No one here has done that.

It is partially answered in my reply yesterday mentioning formal programs of forced sterilization used in the United States. Unfortunately influential groups in our country implemented population control based on eugenics principles onto specific minority groups.

Over 30 states had formal programs for sterilization last century. The higher percentage of Native American blood a woman had increased her risk of sterilization by compulsion or persuasion. Between 1970 and 1976 25% to 50% of Native American women may have been sterilized. (longer article) There are reports of of continuing forced sterilizations in the recent past in California prisons. I expect to see additional breaking news stories in the future as it takes time for victims to come forward and their stories believed.

Housing and financing policies restricting identified population groups to specific neighborhoods or reservations makes it easier to effect their enviornment for healthy families and life.

The burden of air pollution: impacts among racial minorities. 2001

Research shows food deserts more abundant in minority neighborhoods 2014

Environmental injustice is rising in the US. Minorities and the poor pay the price 2017

Past Racist “Redlining” Practices Increased Climate Burden on Minority Neighborhoods 2020

Unfortunately our citizens are living the longterm effects of these policies.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@studentofearth

I’m sorry I did this time.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

Pluto's Republic's picture

@Anja Geitz

The policy should be discussed and compared. I've only watched the policy from an economic development point of view. And from the original intention, to benefit the many. That's how I relate to it.

Even if the US were to recognize a population problem here, how exactly would implementing that even look like?

The US doesn't really have a population problem. The world has a population problem. And a global warming problem. But the US has no intention of making sacrifices and foregoing profits, to save the planet for people who aren't even born yet. The US never sincerely intended to participate in any global efforts or make any sacrifices pertaining to climate change. This is unprofitable to investors and it does not immediate benefit the interests of the oligarchs.

But, let's say the US were to recognize a population problem here, how would the US solve it?

China's goal was to lift up the People and country at a rapid pace. Reducing population growth as a component of that ambition. The US doesn't have a vision for a better society for the American people. If the US did see a population trap, they certainly would not implement a transparent policy to deal with it.

The US creates winners and losers. There is no profit in launching wide-spread program of sweeping social improvements. And there's no big payout in the end. All the economic gains of such a program would go to the People in the form of opportunity. However, in the US, it's not the governments job to feather the nest for People or maintain a vision for their futures. They know Americans will settle for a crumbling, over-crowded dystopia. Indeed they already have. They will compete for low-paying jobs and health care access, and they won't know any different. So why spend money or effort to lift them up to a better future?

If an honest discussion were truly being made here about that policy, someone would have to address the consequences of such a policy. No one here has done that.

Americans will remain untouched by totalitarian programs that interfere with their freedoms. The Pandemic lockdown designed to slow the infection rate across the greater population was already asking far too much from them. Left to themselves, the People are content to fight over the scraps of civilization and tattered rights, and even happier to deny them to each other.

However, if the US was in the midst of totalitarian population reduction — perhaps it would look like this:

Let's open up the virus zone and tell the People they need to go back to work in the contaminated area. The government can then sit back and be very concerned about the new wave of dying. None of this "one child policy" for the US. Better to thin the herd with a virus that feeds on the old, the sick, the blacks, the hispanics, and those with intellectual and developmental disabilities.** The People won't even notice big Pharma licking it's chops, and countries blaming each other because they know what really happened. And The WHO fighting the CDC and the 2,500 bio labs the US has all over the world, including China, building bioweapons from Coronaviruses. The People will take it all in stride, because it's about winners and losers in the US. The government isn't obligated to give them a better life or lift them out of poverty.

For China, the population wasn't exactly a "problem." It was more of an ambition and vision. In 1970, the Chinese saw the direction they would go if they did nothing to lift the People out of increasing squalor and hunger. A billion unskilled laborers and farmers and factory workers in the early stages of industrialization were looking out of China's gates at a futuristic World in the latter half of the 20th century. They needed take a great leap forward in a short amount of time. They didn't need to double their population in the process, which would overwhelm their efforts.

So, they leapt.

___________________________

** Edited to add: "Those With Intellectual And Developmental Disabilities..."

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magiamma's picture

@studentofearth
And understand the importance of education. And that they are thinking ahead that far.

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Stop Climate Change Silence - Start the Conversation

Hot Air Website, Twitter, Facebook

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studentofearth's picture

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--When the opening appears release yourself.

@gjohnsit perfect.
Thanks for the vid.

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