03/04 Open Thread: Making Up Time
A horrible multiple-entendre, but such, perhaps, is life, reality and, most probably, time itself. I plan not to address catching up, in any sense, or with regard to anything, but of fabricating "time" itself, or at least the sense or perception thereof. Alexa, read that back slowly. Oh, wait, I have no Alexa, just as I have no time and don't know who knows where the time goes. OK, enough of that.
I'm trying to figure out how to present the convergence (damn, implies motion, directionality and ergo, temporality) of 3 avenues of thought and can't come up with any decent segues. Perhaps I'll just jump in and see what transpires.
Reality is a construct. The only reality we really grok and participate in is that which we construct, our model or map of the sum of our lives' experiences, formulations, understandings, ruminations and conceptualizations. This is true of all of us, whether it is intentional or accidental for any individual. There seems to be, in all of us, some seemingly intrinsic je ne sais quoi that leads or drives us to some sort of resting state apperception that there is a real, external reality that we are incrementally investigating, analyzing and elucidating, but we can't be because we cannot interact with das ding an sich in any form. We can "experience" collaboration and work out collaborative models, but that too is simply part of our individual models. We are each, furthermore, unique, and, as a result, so are our models, our realities, our vocabularies, languages, ideas and the like. Whether as models, entities, or beings, whatever those may be, we all, of necessity, speak slightly different tongues. Even if we scrupulously define out terms, the definitions themselves will be in different languages. The magnitude of these effects is, naturally uncertain. I've written about this before to a sufficient extent that I won't go into it any further today.
Given the above, it seems obvious that time, too, is a construct; something we have individually and collectively made up. There is a open question, however, of the extent to which we may have made it up out of whole cloth. Simply put whether reality is a model, or a collection of actualities, is time, in the model or otherwise, a thing, a fourth dimension with independent laws, behavior and existence, a mere epiphenomenon, derived from other, more "real" phenomena, or what. As with reality, I have dealt with at least some of the questions about time before, and won't rehash any of that now. Instead, another rabbit hole has, like Ahab, beckoned and I feel compelled to try to follow.
Since we all speak at least slightly different languages, we must, it appears, consider the extent to which Time is language dependent. Yep, there it is. On June 13, 2017, The Conversation published an article by Panos Athanasopoulos which is linked here: ( https://getpocket.com/explore/item/language-alters-our-experience-of-time ). Language Alters Our Experience of Time Learning a new language re-wires your brains and you’ll begin to perceive of time in a unique way. Note that wording carefully. Since experience is all we have, it implies that TIME, whatever it my be, is language dependent. It is tempting to ask how so and to what extent, but that implies a limit, or limits, which arguably can't be in evidence. So, here goes -
You really need to read the entire article to get exactly what is being asserted, the exact magnitude of the evidence and the fuzzy extent of the implications. It is short enough that you can easily do so, even if you wind up going over it multiple times, like I did. I'm going to quote his opening paragraph for my own sneaky purposes, and then his second one for its relevance -
It turns out, Hollywood got it half right. In the film Arrival, Amy Adams plays linguist Louise Banks who is trying to decipher an alien language. She discovers the way the aliens talk about time gives them the power to see into the future – so as Banks learns their language, she also begins to see through time. As one character in the movie says: “Learning a foreign language rewires your brain.”
A study I worked on with linguist Emanuel Bylund shows that bilinguals do indeed think about time differently, depending on the language context in which they are estimating the duration of events. But unlike Hollywood, bilinguals sadly can’t see into the future. However, this study does show that learning a new way to talk about time really does rewire the brain. Our findings are the first psycho-physical evidence of cognitive flexibility in bilinguals.
OK, the evidentiary assertions, to a degree, center upon our tendency to somewhat talk or think about time by using terminology from or relating to space. (Space is a less troublesome and abstract quantity because we can more readily visualize it.) depending upon one's language, the future may be ahead or behind, or down with time arrayed on a vertical axis. In addition to those with linear "analogies", there are those with volumetric ones. Bilingual speakers seemingly jump back and forth in their usages, and, so some extent, perceptions with ease. One is tempted to think that this, in itself, is no big deal, not like measures of duration fluctuate, but one can't help but remember the axon that there is no such thing as being a little bit pregnant. This is merely the state of the evidence as of now, and not some known limit.
OK, warm-ups are over. Who here has not experienced time standing still, or at least moving as slow as molasses? So Hollywood invented aliens who can see into the future, and their language infected a linguist with that same ability. Arguably, if you knew the language, vocabulary and grammar of any branch of science perfectly and completely, you would have attained mastery in that field. If you knew fully and precisely exactly what electrons and photons were, you would have a leg up on every living physicist. So, somewhere in the language of quantum physics, time becomes irrelevant, thanks in large part to relativity. Another short article that is, all the same, a slow read, was published on February 2, 2018, in aeon and is linked here: ( https://getpocket.com/explore/item/you-thought-quantum-mechanics-was-wei... ) The article, You Thought Quantum Mechanics Was Weird: Check out Entangled Time, by Elise Crull, describes an experiment whereby two photons that were never "actually" entangled nor even coexistent came to exhibit properties of entanglement. If nothing else, at least study the diagram and caption. The author's summary
The upshot? The data revealed the existence of quantum correlations between ‘temporally nonlocal’ photons 1 and 4. That is, entanglement can occur across two quantum systems that never coexisted.
sums it up nicely while avoiding all of the implications. The article then summarily discusses how this is fallout from relativity, which staples TIME, whatever the hell that may be, to each and every extant frame of reference such that there can be no commonality, no global or systemic time. (Useful hint: next time you are late for an appointment, remind the other party that they did not specify exactly whose time was to be used.) Strangely enough, the helpful diagram used in the article portrays time as linear and does not specify whose time it is, though presumably it is lab time or experimenters' time. Since the observer's time is never any participating entity's time, there are really no problems or contradictions. Or are there?
In closing, I'd like to leave you with this thought:
have a good one
Title Image is Time
It's an open thread, so have at it. The floor is yours
.
Comments
Morning All
From USA Today this AM:
Candidate / Delegates
Biden 453
Sanders 382
Warren 50
Bloomberg 44
Buttigieg 26
Klobuchar 7
Gabbard 1
no comment
And this from VOX
As of 1:30 am Eastern Wednesday, the following numbers of Super Tuesday delegates have been awarded:
Former Vice President Joe Biden: 269 delegates
Sen. Bernie Sanders: 239 delegates
Former New York City Mayor Mike Bloomberg: 36 delegates
Sen. Elizabeth Warren: 12 delegates
Rep. Tulsi Gabbard: 1 delegate
Good morning QMS. Also no comment.
have a good one.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
What for?
That is how a young Bernie voter answered an exit poll when asked if they would vote for Biden should he become the dem nominee.
I'm more afraid now than ever that we could see four more years of the rump.
That's what they're betting on.
They can handle four more years of Herr Drumpf. Nothing changes for the establishment. Everything would change for us. The goal is four more years of Herr Drumpf because they know Biden can't cut it. They'll probably change things up at the convention if he comes in with the plurality, like change who gets nominated, like her heinous or Mayo Cheat.
My bottom line: I will not vote blue no matter who. I will vote for Bernie or a third party candidate. Period.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Good morning jbob. I was working on next Wednesday's column
early yesterday and wrote that the day's events would have a big impact on whether the next US president was Bernie or Trump. I was very surprised last week to find hard core dyed in the wool dems who were in the Anybody-but-Biden camp, seriously. Of course, this is California, but those folks were still a shock.
have a good one.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Good morning, el ~~
Time is man made. We assigned all the hours, days, and months, the seconds, minutes, and hours. Time is definitely man made.
I didn't pay too close attention last night once Virginia was called for Biden. I knew then that the establishment had successfully begun the theft of the nomination from the people. They know that the American people, who they have taught to fear their shadow, would go for Biden over Bernie because he's the safe bet. Trump will eat his lunch, but I guess that's the goal.
We all knew this, so even though there is disappointment, we should all be ready for revolution, instead. We will not change things without revolution. Poor Bernie thinks revolution within the party is the answer. I've always known that it would take real revolution, in the streets, to make that change.
We are in a time of change. A major shift is occurring. We cannot shift for the better without activity, without a fight, without revolution. Will it come? Only time will tell.
Have a great hump day, folks!
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
At least now
they can blame the stock market crash and the "coronavirus epidemic" to Bernie. That was the other goal.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Good morning RA. I tend to agree that we do not swim in a
soup of time, but simply wear a watch with which we measure entropic cadence or somesuch.
We dropped the ball long ago, maybe somebody will yet pick it up and run with it.
have a good one.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Just Grind it Out
Not a good night but like I often noted: never underestimate the power of the MSM and party hacks most especially and villianously including Elizabeth Warren.
The attacks on Bernie that I've seen on twitter this morning have accelerated and gotten even nastier, the redbaiting rising to new extremes.
So it goes. Dare to struggle, dare to juggle.
Thanks to all C99%ers for putting up with me and all the Berners who have given their all or even some.
And kudos to Anja for again doing lots more for Bernie and the cause / the struggle than I've ever done.
Grind it out however and as best y'all can.
Bernie's movement remains the only critical mass we got.
Edit: add:
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAwcUZMuHMM]
Good mornng Wally, not that is is particularly good.
All I can say is hang in there. The RW hate mongers will be out in force today.
have a good one.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Time is a function of the movement of Earth
Day and night, seasons, years and so on. How we experience time is the variable...every year seems faster, but the trip around the sun remains pretty constant at least in a human lifespan.
It is interesting when people are kept from daylight...
https://www.sciencealert.com/experiments-show-that-humans-can-sleep-for-...
My natural sleep cycle is very much tuned to sunrise and sunset.
Thanks for the "timely" OT.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Good morning Lookout. Most
living things beings do seem to have more or less diurnal cycles, I do. Thanks for the input, and the humor.
have a good one.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Morning...
Is it TIME we BERN down the Establishment yet? In TIME these fuckers are going to kill us all. (apologies, I'm in a pissy mode from yesterday's rat fucking, my ass is sore...)
[video:https://youtu.be/u7APmRkatEU]
C99, my refuge from an insane world. #ForceTheVote
Good morning RR. Nothing to say here. Have a good one.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
we cannot interact with "das ding an sich"
ho, ho, ho, forgive me, the only thing I can understand in this essay at this point in time is
"das ding an sich" (German). This "Ding da" (German), ie this "thing there" (English)
I interact with those numbers. The thing is, that the straight up numbers are crooked and the 'leaning to the right' numbers, are straight. Sure thing. Bingo.
NOw I am going to read what's going on in my home turf. I guess our 'leaning to the right' folks are somewhat still the crooked ones. If that will stay that way is not a 'sure thing there'. After three rounds of voting in Thüringen (Thuringia) the leaning to the left candidate could only win, because in the third round a simple plurality instead of majority of votes is needed to win.
I had no idea that voting rules are that kind of a trick and treat pitfalls.
Sigh. May be I will try to read this again. For now, I only get "das Ding da".
https://www.euronews.com/live
Guten tag, mimi. If you Kant get das ding an sich, consider
Plato's "ideals". Meanwhile, I hope your election results are better than ours.
have a good one.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
I have no patience, smartness, education and intelligence
to read Kant and Plato. I guess I am square in the middle of the 99 percent, who also have no clue about Kant and Plato.
But I agree, it should be something I should do, reading Plato aan Kant to understand the electoral vote rigging shenanigans possible.
I apologize that I haven't tried to read Kant and Plato though. I blame it on my teachers.
https://www.euronews.com/live
The vote rigging possibilities are manifold, and I doubt that
Kant and Plato would help, though Machiavelli and Kafka might be appropriate. It doesn't take much, people in the US fear change, they live in terror that things might get worse for them, that they might slip closer to the bottom of the barrel, and can be easily conned and herded into acting against their best interests out of that fear.
have a good one.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
yeah, I was being sarcastic, el, I even understand
the fear factor, that changing the rules might get the voting population something worse.
I guess the sound of my musing didn't cross over too well. So, now two more authors to read? I could post an image of my book shelves to illustrate how many books and authors I haven't read.
https://www.euronews.com/live
morning el
et al
End of three long weeks of work. Bernie won CA. At least there’s that. More work to do. Need to slow down a bit.
Two thoughts. First, math is a language and it changed my brain.
And then this, I love two constructs in Mandarin. Both are logical constructs. They ask questions in this form: Do (have, can, will, etc) you or do you not... fill in the blank.
And they leave out the pronoun if it is not needed. As in: “I have the book.” The response would be, “Give it” rather than give it to me. The: to me is implied. I only studied the first year so there is a lot I don’t know about the language.
Have a good one...
Stop Climate Change Silence - Start the Conversation
Hot Air Website, Twitter, Facebook
Good morning magi, thanks for all your work. Math is a
language, and one of several that changed my brain. I do't wish to go any further than that this morning. I will note that there are open questions as to whether or not "math", "numbers" and mathematical properties, constructs and the like are "real", but I am not going there today or any time soon. Investigate at your own peril.
That first formulation - "Do (have, can, will, etc) you or do you not... fill in the blank." inherently invokes the law of the excluded middle and makes the discussion binary. I like it where it is appropriate - do you or do you not own a yellow bicycle, hear a dog barking, etc.; but not so uch where it isn't - do you or do you not like cookies, Stendahl, blue, etc.
have a good one.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
It is a really useful construct
Stop Climate Change Silence - Start the Conversation
Hot Air Website, Twitter, Facebook
To continue a meme, Putin is gonna love how
things are going. Biden v. Trump means that he will have two corruptible people to work with. Bernie is incorruptible and is therefore a worst case scenario for Russia which is a capitalist oligarchy like ours. So, James Carville, Putin must be smiling today to have a choice between Biden or Trump.
Just throwing this out there.
"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"
Good morning Lily, that's a pretty awesome meme, given that
it is more than true that they are both highly corruptible if not, in fact, corrupt.
have a good one.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Thanks. I’m just sick of Carville’s cackling.
"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"
Timeless Time
from one of my favorite little known albums, The End of The Game, by Peter Green. My wife found a copy of the CD on an auction for me, in Germany!
just a drive-by, gotta fly... have a good one all!
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.
both - Albert Einstein
Thanks, dysto.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Here's How China bent the infection curve of COVID19
Populations don’t like wars. They have to be lied into it.
That means we can be “truthed” into peace. — Julian Assange
Good morning Pluto, thanks tons. Where did you find that?
have a good one.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
I follow a few select Chinese officials on Twitter
Lijian Zhao 赵立坚 is a member of China's Foreign Ministry. He is tasked with conveying information internationally. He says, "I will try my best to tell the story of China."
Propaganda is embedded in everything these days, but if any people deserves to be heard about their system of government, it is the Chinese. A shocking amount of pure shit and slander is dumped on them daily by the US. Americans are taught to hate them, no doubt to condition them for the economical or military destruction of China. There's no getting around the fact that the Chinese have far, far greater intellectual capacity than the European immigrants who populate the US. This is apparently a threat to US national security. I believe the use of pictograms rather than phonetics in their written language evolves the brain more rapidly.
About that interesting essay you wrote, above: "Are you familiar with Douglas Hofstadter?" He has written on this topic extensively. He has a theory that analogy comes before thought. Like the first real human thought was, "This looks like that other thing." And after that categorizing thought occurs, thinking can flow. It's like those CAPCHA tests you need to pass online (clicking pictures with crosswalks or traffic signals). They are actually Turing tests for humans. Robots and AI's can't pass them.
Anyway, Hofstadler writes on that topic in a transcendental way. He was there early-on the AI scene at Stanford. Last weekend I read this article about him in The Atlantic Archives, which might interest you. It parallels some of your inquiries: The Man Who Would Teach Machines to Think.
Populations don’t like wars. They have to be lied into it.
That means we can be “truthed” into peace. — Julian Assange
delegate numbers at HuffPo
Joe Biden 566
Bernie Sanders 501
Elizabeth Warren 61
Michael Bloomberg 53
Pete Buttigieg 26
Amy Klobuchar 7
Tulsi Gabbard 1
Their California count adds up to 271 so there will be another 144 to be awarded.
If the current distribution holds up that would be another 82 for Bernie, 49 for Biden. That would make the count Biden 615, Bernie 583. Well, not what I was hoping for but still doable.
Meanwhile CNN still doesn't like Bernie. They haven't called California for him even though everyone else has. They showed him speaking, then cut away so they could act incredulous that he was framing it as "who's side are you on?". I've got to get another source of news.
Good afternoon Shah. Well that brightens things a bit. The
probably are for absentee/vote-by-mail ballots, which, iirc, are counted last. Could be a real mixed bag.
have a good one.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Obama changed the election for Biden
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/482298-biden-obama-super-tuesday/
Wow I am surprised that insurance stock rose big time after Biden won Super Tuesday aren't you?
This sums up my thoughts on Warren.
Get him!
Joe said, "But my son died too."
“When out of fear you twist the lesser evil into the lie that it is something good, you eventually rob people of the capacity to distinguish between good and evil.”
~ Hannah Arendt
It takes a Democratic President to enact Republican wish-lists
This is a lesson we should have learned back in the 1990s.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Good afternoon Maven. I think many who learned it then
refused to accept that the "New Dems" were the only Dems in town and kept hoping that the "real" FBR/LBJ Dems would return.
have a good one,
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --