Open Thread - Wed. March 23, 2016 - Fascism- Could It Happen Here? (Updated)

When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.
- attributed to Sinclair Lewis

In my Open Thread of last Wednesday, March 16, we examined some of the parallels between Donald Trump and other strong arm fascists. Trump's far right wing rhetoric has alarmed many people and has such notables such as Robert Reich, Dana Milbank of the Washington Post, and Roger Cohen of the New York Times have all expressing concern about Trump's fascistic parallels. For purposes of this essay and relative to public commentary on Trumpism, the term proto-fascist has been used to describe Trump. So Bob Dreyfuss' description of Donald Trump as proto-fascist is probably apt.

Trump, of course, has repeatedly played with fire when it comes to violence, intimidation, and the role of white supremacists, the radical right, and others. His dog-whistle refusal to instantly disassociate himself from David Duke and the Ku Klux Klan on the eve of the Super Tuesday primaries in the Deep South was widely condemned even by Republican officials. But in at least one case, an actual neo-Nazi, Matthew Heimbach, the leader of the Traditionalist Workers Party, used physical force against protesters at a Trump rally in Louisville.

Ironically last week at the same time that I was composing my Open Thread, Amy Goodman of Democracy Now! interviewed Robert Paxton professor at Columbia University, who is known as the father of fascism studies. Paxton broadly defines fascism as thus:

"Fascism is a system of political authority and social order intended to reinforce the unity, energy, and purity of communities in which liberal democracy stands accused of producing division and decline."

At the beginning of the interview, Amy Goodman notes some disturbing aspects of Donald Trump's campaign for President that have many varied public figures are calling it very fascistic.

AMY GOODMAN: Donald Trump has waffled on accepting support from white supremacist groups like the KKK, and he’s even encouraged hand salutes at his rallies that some say are reminiscent of Adolf Hitler. However, Donald Trump, is he a fascist? Could fascism ever come to America’s shores?

For more, we’re joined by the father of fascism studies, Robert Paxton, professor emeritus of social science at Columbia University. Paxton is the author of several books, including The Anatomy of Fascism. His recent piece is headlined "Is Fascism Back?" and a while ago wrote a piece on "The Five Stages of Fascism."

In this interview, Amy asked Paxton to weigh in on the rise of Donald Trump and for his take on Trump as a fascist. After giving a short recount of the history of fascism in Italy and Germany, Paxton seemed somewhat surprised that Trump's candidacy had taken hold. While he did not see Trump as a true fascist in the classic sense, he did note that there were a number of alarming fascist tendencies in Trump and was concerned about how they played out at Trump's campaign rallies.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWvVKTxTCAA]

Finally at the end of the interview, Amy Goodman asks Paxton for his assessment of Trump as a danger.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you think Donald Trump is a danger to America or represents a danger that’s already here?

ROBERT PAXTON: I think that his violent and aggressive temperament installed in the powers of the president of the United States is unpredictable and frightening.

snip

Then Paxton adds this one last thought.

ROBERT PAXTON: Yes. I think—I think we don’t know what he would do. We know that his temperament is such that we will have foreign policy crises that we shouldn’t have, and we will have domestic conflicts that we shouldn’t have.

In my essay last week, user WoodsDweller made a comment which included Paxton's five stages of Fascism. This listing is something we should keep in mind in the coming years.

Paxton's Five Stages of Fascism

1) Intellectual exploration, where disillusionment with popular democracy manifests itself in discussions of lost national vigor
2) Rooting, where a fascist movement, aided by political deadlock and polarization, becomes a player on the national stage
3) Arrival to power, where conservatives seeking to control rising leftist opposition invite the movement to share power
4) Exercise of power, where the movement and its charismatic leader control the state in balance with state institutions such as the police and traditional elites
5) Radicalization or entropy, where the state either becomes increasingly radical, as did Nazi Germany, or slips into traditional authoritarian rule, as did Fascist Italy

I believe we may be seeing some of these characteristics manifest in our populace already, aided and abetted by both political parties and the mainstream media as well as other factors, such as the break down and privatization of our education system and the outsourcing of our economy with its attendant impoverishment of a significant portion of our population.

We have seen the disillusionment with popular democracy as evidenced by a lack of voter participation and open anger exhibited by many of Trump's supporters. As I noted in last week's essay, Trump's supporters are the poorest and least educated of all the candidates in the Presidential primaries.

In the case of this rightward shift, probably more blame can be laid at the feet of the Democratic party than upon the Republicans. The Democrats have failed to live up to the promises of the past as the party of the people. When Obama offered up the social safety net as a bargaining chip to the Republicans, it indisputably signaled that a Democrat was willing to go back on decades of fighting for the people. In fact, we are now seeing Democrats co-opting what were formerly Republican stands and policies.

Chris Hedges has famously railed about the failure of the liberal class to act as a backstop to the increasingly rightward movement of our political system. In his Death of the Liberal Class, Hedges slams those forces that have previously looked out for the underclasses. The following is an excerpt from a 2010 interview Chris Hedges did with NPR.

In his new book, Death of the Liberal Class, Hedges slams five specific groups and institutions — the Democratic Party, churches, unions, the media and academia — for failing Americans and allowing for the creation of a "permanent underclass."

Hedges says that, for motives ranging from self-preservation to careerism, the "liberal establishment" purged radicals from its own ranks and, as a result, lost its checks on capitalism and corporate power.

"For millions of Americans, including the 15 million unemployed Americans," Hedges tells NPR'S Neal Conan, "the suffering is becoming acute."

Now, six years later, nothing much has changed except people are fed up more than ever with the current status quo and are searching for someone to change things drastically. What has resulted is that one party has shifted so far to the right that its nominee may well end up being a proto-fascist in Donald Trump. But Trump is not really the exception here. He is just the most overt symptom of the rightward drift of this country, pushed by both major political parties, the corporate media, and ignored by the other institutions that have traditionally created a firewall against our steady march toward fascism.

Electing Hillary Clinton will do nothing to stem the tide because she is symbolic of the disease that has been inflicting our political system. Clinton is corrupt and too heavily co-opted by the corporate establishment which is contributing to this rightward shift. In fact, her stance on the issues that most directly affect the people will probably hasten this rightward shift because they will do nothing to help real people whose lives have been destroyed by a very corrupt political system. So if the choice is Clinton or Trump in 2016, it will not change the dangerous course this country appears to be heading. Without major changes to our political system that significantly address the needs of the people, another Trump like strong man will likely emerge in the next cycle.

Last week when I published my previous essay on this topic, user stevej and I had a very interesting conversation in the comments. As a result of that conversation and an exchange of pms, I am hoping that stevej will expand upon this topic in his own essay in the future.

As always this is an Open Thread too.

UPDATE: Thanks to Zeitgeistus for this link.. Thom Hartman published a column in Salon this morning after this essay was published here. Itis a summary of his interview with Thomas Frank along with his own observations. I am including this excerpt from that article.

The more likely outcome, given all the machinations of the elite media and both party’s elites, is that the Republicans will nominate an establishment candidate like Kasich or Ryan/Romney, and that the Democratic Party will nominate Hillary Clinton.

The choice between an establishment Republican or an establishment Democrat will depress overall political turnout, turn an emerging generation of Millennials into radical cynics, and feed growing explosions among the base of both parties (Tea Party and the latest version of Occupy/BLM). It could mean chaos in our streets for a decade or more.

No matter what happens in this 2016 election, though, the bottom 90% has had enough.

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triv33's picture

before he died, I don't think he ever forgave that prick for stranding him in Vietnam.
Hunter Thompson Meets Fear And Loathing Face To Face

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I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~

...on tomorrow's challenges. Technical issues, I can't actually view it now. But she starts saying, "making vice chic was a tremendous moral error and the global village has suffered as a result" or similar. Then continues to compare the US to Nazi Germany and has some insightful comments about women and men that ring true. It will surely make an impression. Creatives have great insights in times of rapid, epochal change.

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TheOtherMaven's picture

since the word can be applied to any behavior that the speaker does not approve of.

I don't like videos, does a transcript exist anywhere?

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

I'd like to see a transcript as well. I haven't viewed this video properly in a long while, years in fact, so am going mostly on memory. Joni is a unique voice, a rare animal as it were, having grown up in the midst of Canadian wilderness. I don't know her specific definition of vice but she does reference the global village (if I remember correctly) and we have her lifetime work to gauge what she may be referencing.

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lotlizard's picture

Yes, a lot depends on what is meant by “vice.”

Glorification of gangs, gangsters, and mafia godfathers in movies and pop culture?

Graffiti and “tagging” everywhere — and if you don’t approve and accept that as a good thing, as a form of urban folk art, then you’re not a liberal!?

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TheOtherMaven's picture

A lot of people do, simply because the lead character is the most important character.

Stories about villains do make for good theater, especially when they get their comeuppance in the last act (or last episode). Is Shakespeare's "Richard III" a "hero" even though he's the title character? Don't make me laugh! How about "Macbeth"? Yarite! "King Lear"? He's an asshole who learns too late the high cost of being an asshole.

"Gangs, gangsters and mafia godfathers" have been a part of "movies and pop culture" since before the movies learned to talk. This is so not new.

"Graffiti" is far older than that, even. It may be that the famous cave paintings were simply an early expression of the compulsion to decorate blank space. And apparently every culture that developed any form of writing whatsoever, whether pictographic, alphabetic, or syllabic, also developed graffiti. Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Mayans, Vikings - they all left their marks, sometimes scurrilous, sometimes poetic, sometimes just "[X] (was here)". It is neither good nor bad, it just is, because people are people.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

lotlizard's picture

I am pained, not only by having to put up with defaced or vandalized mass transit infrastructure and pay higher fares because of it, but also by realizing how many people no longer see anything wrong with such defacement and damage and consider it normal and acceptable.

It wasn’t normal when I was growing up.

It wasn’t normal when I first came to Europe.

It still isn’t normal in Hawaii, where getting used to tolerating eyesores would be bad both spiritually and economically (tourism).

Granted, I’m almost 70, so maybe this is partly an older person saying “You kids get offa my lawn!”

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burnt out's picture

just during my lifetime, I wouldn't rule out anything concerning where America is heading. But right now the first of the season Brown Thrasher is singing his heart out in my front yard so I'm concentrating on that for the moment.

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All I want is the truth. Just give me some truth. John Lennon

gulfgal98's picture

I am glad to see you dropping by. Are you going to photograph your first brown thrasher of the season? I can hardly wait to get back to my birds too. Smile

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Alison Wunderland's picture

But in keeping with the theme of the essay, when fascism comes to Amerika it'll be riding a mobility scooter and have Cheetos dust all over its chin. As far as I'm concerned, Obama was the Manchurian Candidate. All things come to he who waits, huh. Oh but we got the ACA. Are you fucking shitting me? I'm supposed to be elated that we get to have a $7000 deductible, and get to pay thousands every month or we become criminals? Thanks a lot, you insurance industry whore. And fuck your Brooks Bros. suits too. I kind of like rumpled Bernie. Oh but the perfect is the enemy of the good. Well, Bernie's not perfect, but at least he's trying. And you ratfuckers aren't even "the good." You're just whores. And you're not even good whores. Good whores work hard to deliver what you paid for. Civilized countries believe their citizens are worth hanging on to, not farming like milch cows. Bunch of blood-sucking leeches. We're aphids. The Criminal Justice Industry are the ants, and the 1% are the rose bush tenders. 87 people--own the rose bush--own as much as the poorest half of population Earth. So what, they're poor and who gives a fuck about them anyway. They should get some bootstraps. Those same 87 people also own as much as the richest half...minus 87. Snicker on that, you stupid fucks, while you try to put food on your family. Fifteen years of blowing shit up now--not counting all the other shit we blew up before that. Doesn't seem to be working. Hmmph. So let's blow some more shit up. Yeah, that'll do it. Couple of hundred years from now we'll have leveled the planet flat, then we can declare victory. Fucking morons. Insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results.

Meanwhile AB goes off to bring his pitchfork to the rally point. The "Bernie Center" turns out to be a head shop/art gallery. Glass pipes and hookahs everywhere and some man-I-shouldn't-have-taken-that-much-belladonna art. Note to self: A three-mile walk after sitting for five months requires more planning; to wit, food and a beverage, proper shoes--mUGGS don't cut it, and the nitro bottle just in case. The Gothette at the counter, and sole occupant of the Center, rather lackadaisically steered me to a shop-worm bin of Bernie buttons; $2, $3, $4. "AB gave a hunnerd an' aiddy bucks so far, can he have one?" "The prices are marked on there." Attempts at vocal engagement were met with a vacancy of visage usually associated with goldfish. AB left his email addy. Nary a peep in reply. We are well and truly fucked.

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gulfgal98's picture

Occasionally, I want to write a substantive Open Thread. It provides a jumping off point for commentary or you are always welcome to write whatever you wish. Smile

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Alison Wunderland's picture

edit: Guess I just [needed] to get some shit off my chest.

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gulfgal98's picture

every so often. Feel free here. Smile

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

shaharazade's picture

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Alison Wunderland's picture

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detroitmechworks's picture

To ram through their candidates no matter what...

It will be WORSE than the 1860 election IMHO. Instead of just mass confusion, and a split political system, we have a very calculated broken system. I don't find it surprising at all that our military has been doing a dress rehearsal war for over 15 years.

Dress Rehearsal for what? Domestic pacification against an armed but vastly inferior insurgent force. Of course, we will only start hearing about it when it fits the political agenda they want to sell. (Oregon comes to mind. How else to turn off the left from revolution than tar it as a "right-wing" activity?")

It's gonna get ugly. Just glad I live where I do, and know what I know. Friends and neighbors are what we need, and always will.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

Martha Pearce-Smith's picture

" Friends and neighbors are what we need, and always will."

My father taught history, social science, government, and psychology. He taught ME to think. And I have long thought that once a population gets to a certain size, it is impossible for ANY form of government to REALLY work properly. I am not yet certain of the exact size at which point things start to break down - but I would venture when there are just too many people to KNOW...even in passing.... one is getting to the tipping point.

That could be why E. F. Schumacher's Small Is Beautiful: A Study of Economics As If People Mattered speaks to me so deeply.

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First Nations News

detroitmechworks's picture

with City States.

I have a fondness for direct democracy among neighbors. Of course those are subject to demagogues, etc... No government is perfect, but I personally like ones that lead to lots of local festivals, civic pride and arts.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

with that. But it's a hell of a position to put them into. What a horrific choice.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

with that. But it's a hell of a position to put them into. What a horrific choice.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Martha Pearce-Smith's picture

organizations that we, as Progressives, need to look at taking down...And IMO, the very first one is ALEC.

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lotlizard's picture

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Alison Wunderland's picture

Got tired of waiting to hear from the brain-dead at the dens of inequities accessories boutique and registered with the Main Group, woohoo, Campaign Headquarters here in Philthadelphia. I haven't looked on the map at teh Googles but it's probably not any further than the last attempt to jump in the deep end. And there's a bus route. We'll see how it goes.

Just for snorts, here's some ancient artwork. AB had a diff handle in those days.

barbarasleg.jpg

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