Open Thread - Wed. March 23, 2016 - Fascism- Could It Happen Here? (Updated)
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.
- attributed to Sinclair Lewis
In my Open Thread of last Wednesday, March 16, we examined some of the parallels between Donald Trump and other strong arm fascists. Trump's far right wing rhetoric has alarmed many people and has such notables such as Robert Reich, Dana Milbank of the Washington Post, and Roger Cohen of the New York Times have all expressing concern about Trump's fascistic parallels. For purposes of this essay and relative to public commentary on Trumpism, the term proto-fascist has been used to describe Trump. So Bob Dreyfuss' description of Donald Trump as proto-fascist is probably apt.
Trump, of course, has repeatedly played with fire when it comes to violence, intimidation, and the role of white supremacists, the radical right, and others. His dog-whistle refusal to instantly disassociate himself from David Duke and the Ku Klux Klan on the eve of the Super Tuesday primaries in the Deep South was widely condemned even by Republican officials. But in at least one case, an actual neo-Nazi, Matthew Heimbach, the leader of the Traditionalist Workers Party, used physical force against protesters at a Trump rally in Louisville.
Ironically last week at the same time that I was composing my Open Thread, Amy Goodman of Democracy Now! interviewed Robert Paxton professor at Columbia University, who is known as the father of fascism studies. Paxton broadly defines fascism as thus:
"Fascism is a system of political authority and social order intended to reinforce the unity, energy, and purity of communities in which liberal democracy stands accused of producing division and decline."
At the beginning of the interview, Amy Goodman notes some disturbing aspects of Donald Trump's campaign for President that have many varied public figures are calling it very fascistic.
AMY GOODMAN: Donald Trump has waffled on accepting support from white supremacist groups like the KKK, and he’s even encouraged hand salutes at his rallies that some say are reminiscent of Adolf Hitler. However, Donald Trump, is he a fascist? Could fascism ever come to America’s shores?
For more, we’re joined by the father of fascism studies, Robert Paxton, professor emeritus of social science at Columbia University. Paxton is the author of several books, including The Anatomy of Fascism. His recent piece is headlined "Is Fascism Back?" and a while ago wrote a piece on "The Five Stages of Fascism."
In this interview, Amy asked Paxton to weigh in on the rise of Donald Trump and for his take on Trump as a fascist. After giving a short recount of the history of fascism in Italy and Germany, Paxton seemed somewhat surprised that Trump's candidacy had taken hold. While he did not see Trump as a true fascist in the classic sense, he did note that there were a number of alarming fascist tendencies in Trump and was concerned about how they played out at Trump's campaign rallies.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWvVKTxTCAA]
Finally at the end of the interview, Amy Goodman asks Paxton for his assessment of Trump as a danger.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you think Donald Trump is a danger to America or represents a danger that’s already here?
ROBERT PAXTON: I think that his violent and aggressive temperament installed in the powers of the president of the United States is unpredictable and frightening.
snip
Then Paxton adds this one last thought.
ROBERT PAXTON: Yes. I think—I think we don’t know what he would do. We know that his temperament is such that we will have foreign policy crises that we shouldn’t have, and we will have domestic conflicts that we shouldn’t have.
In my essay last week, user WoodsDweller made a comment which included Paxton's five stages of Fascism. This listing is something we should keep in mind in the coming years.
Paxton's Five Stages of Fascism
1) Intellectual exploration, where disillusionment with popular democracy manifests itself in discussions of lost national vigor
2) Rooting, where a fascist movement, aided by political deadlock and polarization, becomes a player on the national stage
3) Arrival to power, where conservatives seeking to control rising leftist opposition invite the movement to share power
4) Exercise of power, where the movement and its charismatic leader control the state in balance with state institutions such as the police and traditional elites
5) Radicalization or entropy, where the state either becomes increasingly radical, as did Nazi Germany, or slips into traditional authoritarian rule, as did Fascist Italy
I believe we may be seeing some of these characteristics manifest in our populace already, aided and abetted by both political parties and the mainstream media as well as other factors, such as the break down and privatization of our education system and the outsourcing of our economy with its attendant impoverishment of a significant portion of our population.
We have seen the disillusionment with popular democracy as evidenced by a lack of voter participation and open anger exhibited by many of Trump's supporters. As I noted in last week's essay, Trump's supporters are the poorest and least educated of all the candidates in the Presidential primaries.
In the case of this rightward shift, probably more blame can be laid at the feet of the Democratic party than upon the Republicans. The Democrats have failed to live up to the promises of the past as the party of the people. When Obama offered up the social safety net as a bargaining chip to the Republicans, it indisputably signaled that a Democrat was willing to go back on decades of fighting for the people. In fact, we are now seeing Democrats co-opting what were formerly Republican stands and policies.
Chris Hedges has famously railed about the failure of the liberal class to act as a backstop to the increasingly rightward movement of our political system. In his Death of the Liberal Class, Hedges slams those forces that have previously looked out for the underclasses. The following is an excerpt from a 2010 interview Chris Hedges did with NPR.
In his new book, Death of the Liberal Class, Hedges slams five specific groups and institutions — the Democratic Party, churches, unions, the media and academia — for failing Americans and allowing for the creation of a "permanent underclass."
Hedges says that, for motives ranging from self-preservation to careerism, the "liberal establishment" purged radicals from its own ranks and, as a result, lost its checks on capitalism and corporate power.
"For millions of Americans, including the 15 million unemployed Americans," Hedges tells NPR'S Neal Conan, "the suffering is becoming acute."
Now, six years later, nothing much has changed except people are fed up more than ever with the current status quo and are searching for someone to change things drastically. What has resulted is that one party has shifted so far to the right that its nominee may well end up being a proto-fascist in Donald Trump. But Trump is not really the exception here. He is just the most overt symptom of the rightward drift of this country, pushed by both major political parties, the corporate media, and ignored by the other institutions that have traditionally created a firewall against our steady march toward fascism.
Electing Hillary Clinton will do nothing to stem the tide because she is symbolic of the disease that has been inflicting our political system. Clinton is corrupt and too heavily co-opted by the corporate establishment which is contributing to this rightward shift. In fact, her stance on the issues that most directly affect the people will probably hasten this rightward shift because they will do nothing to help real people whose lives have been destroyed by a very corrupt political system. So if the choice is Clinton or Trump in 2016, it will not change the dangerous course this country appears to be heading. Without major changes to our political system that significantly address the needs of the people, another Trump like strong man will likely emerge in the next cycle.
Last week when I published my previous essay on this topic, user stevej and I had a very interesting conversation in the comments. As a result of that conversation and an exchange of pms, I am hoping that stevej will expand upon this topic in his own essay in the future.
As always this is an Open Thread too.
UPDATE: Thanks to Zeitgeistus for this link.. Thom Hartman published a column in Salon this morning after this essay was published here. Itis a summary of his interview with Thomas Frank along with his own observations. I am including this excerpt from that article.
The more likely outcome, given all the machinations of the elite media and both party’s elites, is that the Republicans will nominate an establishment candidate like Kasich or Ryan/Romney, and that the Democratic Party will nominate Hillary Clinton.
The choice between an establishment Republican or an establishment Democrat will depress overall political turnout, turn an emerging generation of Millennials into radical cynics, and feed growing explosions among the base of both parties (Tea Party and the latest version of Occupy/BLM). It could mean chaos in our streets for a decade or more.
No matter what happens in this 2016 election, though, the bottom 90% has had enough.
Comments
Is it already here?
It is broadly accepted the US is a corporate oligarchy. We don't have a single dictator, but a corporate club or board room calling the shots.
Do you remember George Carlin's American Dream rant? You ain't in the club!
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q]
I'm afraid we have devolved into a misinformed population, misled by the corporate puppet masters, brainwashed into blindly supporting the corrupt system while waving the flag and saying "We're number one". I don't know if that fits with the definition of Fascists that you develop in your post, but it is a state that frightens me.
Of course conversations like the one you've started here helps folks understand and fight against our steady decline into a fascist abyss. Thanks for your time and effort.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Yes, I have some problems with definitions too
Whatever we are and where we are heading is not good. As I was waiting for the scheduler to spit this out, I watched the video of Thom Hartman interviewing Thomas Frank and I am now understanding why the Democratic party has failed the people so miserably.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Nice job! Thanks for this
A lot to chew on here.
Thank you
I saw your post of the Donald Trump interview and hope to read it when I get a chance.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Good morning all
I see they finally bojo'd geebeebee over at TOP. Too bad but hopefully he'll remain part of the community here or at the reddit place.
There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams
Ok
I guess either:
- geebeebee was using a sock devoniles
- he got setup.
Don't know why he would bother with the sock but I can surely see number two happening.
There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams
It's interesting that another person
who has been using at least one sock is still not banned. Selective enforcement, sort of like with the too big to fail banks.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Someone at the help desk
said geebeebee was put on time out last night for certain interactions in a thread, I assume the thread where he was accused of having a sock. Geebeebee went to the help desk and complained about being on TO, probably angrily, and then he was banned. If he had a sock, he would have been banned initially instead of TO to banned.
Geebeebee had posted at the help desk asking for help from mgmt about the sock accusations. The thread geebeebee started at the help desk has been either deleted or taken private.
I saw that before with Phoenix Woman. She was timed out and posted at the help desk, being a jerk, and they then banned her.
I doubt strongly that he had a sock. He is signed up here and I expect him to join us at least a bit.
Well, we need to put this stuff behind us, but I wanted to defend or clear his name if at all possible.
The help desk
is some of the finest existentialist satire and irony on the internet. It's like a Sartre novel - hell is the help desk. People literally appealing to some inanimate object, a desk, which sits there inflexible and immobile with a very occasional comment coming out of the speaker.
There's this movie on Netflix Charlie Victor Romeo which is actors re-enacting verbatim cockpit conversations of airplanes in distress. I am thinking of writing a play or theater piece called The Help Desk which transcribes these actual conversations.
" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "
Beautiful!
If you do write something, can you at least share an excerpt here with us?
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
No doubt
There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams
Sigh... GBB was BOJOd for the anti Markos diary he posted
Yesterday... Had he NOT done that and had he taken his concern about being targeted by a fake sock puppet to the help desk PRIVATELY he wouldn't have been BOJOd .
There is a very pro bgg discussion at the help desk... Supposing that christin may have created the sock GBB is accused of creating. It's all moot though because management isn't going to sanction christin or the Jodecei sock ... And they won't reconsider GBBs ban.
All discussion of sock puppets seems to have been made PRIVATE... Doesn't matter though. Even in private this christin situation is being ignored. I know because on FEB 29 I did something I have never before done in my 11 years at DK, I opened a private ticket at the help desk asking if the brand new member Jodecei, was a sock puppet because within hours of becoming a member it started attacking me as a serial Hillary hater ...
soooo ANGRY at GBB!! tried to warn him He was going to get BOJOd ... And now he has.
Orwell was an optimist
It sucks
I warned him too. He got caught up all the time and took it all personally. Christin is crafty and probably has a hundred sock puppets. She plots and she's very evil. Buyer beware.
I doubt the diary did it.
I've seen a whole lot worse said about kos in diaries and comments. He has always said he can take it, or he just doesn't care. It falls under a public figure being fair game. Of course, I don't know for sure. Maybe you saw a comment by staff over there saying as much. I am guessing he was not too polite to the tech team for putting him on a TO, and they had enough.
Okay, now I am going back to bed!
Markos is on a raging rampage
Markos is on a raging rampage since the ides and he's a mean asshole screaming livid Bastard. Now that he sits around on his one percenter ass all day doing nothing since he does not have to work he reads every comment and bans like a mean drunk delusional king. He hates Bernie and all Bernie voters. One by one he dismisses us from his kingdom of fear and loathing. Soon he will make Christin his bitter meanqueen. Fuck all of it. Let's focus on winning.
Its like Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy over there
people manufacturing fake sock puppets?! On reflection I can see how easy it would be to pretend to be a diarist making a reply to someone using their own sock puppet, but it's actually the sock puppet of another puppet master!! A false flag flying a false flag. It's all just too much. People are way too personally invested in pixels - that's reached the level of being very scary stuff.
" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "
His name doesn't need clearing
because the reality at dkos is based on an authoritarian mind set of double, think double speak and has about as much validity or credibility as a Salem witch trail. The rules of engagement and the lists of mortal sins are as absurd any faith based religion or cult. No need to defend his name as anyone who has read his work knows exactly what his thought and speech crime was.
I'm happy for him as when your caught up in the dkos cesspool you start thinking that this is the real political and cultural battle ground that's occurring in real life. You think your fighting the good fight. Your not. It's an authoritarian dead zone a zombie cesspool and any 'name' worth reading is a threat to the site's mission which at this point is to stamp out democracy and quell any insurrection or dissent that dares to question the powerful inevitable fiction they use to keep the populace in line. Surrender monkey's and authoritarian anti-democratic Democrat's are all that's going to be left. kos and his admins. probably always were like this but in this farce of a Democratic primary they have taken off the soft gloves and are bringing out the iron heel.
Geegeebee's name is among the real truth tellers and liberals who the dkos brown shirt vigilantes have run off. It's an honor and not a disgrace. His name is now on the list of my hero's from dkos who had the courage and brains to take on the deep void that is the at black heart of our broken system and the Democratic party. This is not what democracy looks like, it's not even what reality looks like. I've seen this movie and read this book and I'll be damned if I'm letting them invade and snatch my body mind or spirit. He's well out of it.
Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just an awesome comment Shaz!
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Hooya! Now we're talkin' Shaz! If I wasn't on a time out
Id march myself over to TOP and earn myself a banhammer.
I told myself I wouldn't purposely get the BH but after reading this comment I'm teetering.
Shaz,
I'm a very shitty writer, actually I'm worse than that, I'm barley above the level of Markos shitty. Anyway I was wondering if I decide to get the BH from TOP could I please use the first 2 paragraphs in this comment?
No, you're not...
...and you oats it to the rest of us wandering in the maize of commentary to share your rye perspective. Wheat really love to read more from you.
Improve the Resilience Resource Library by adding your links.
Vote Smart - Just the Facts - 40,000 politicians by name or zipcode
Whew! Wow, thank you!
I don't know how I can possibly match up to that! That was beautiful and very kind, shaharazade! Had a bit of a rough go the last day, so that made me feel very good, and just a bit emotional!
Thanks to all for this very nice and comfy site, and I will try to do it justice! I got burned pretty bad there at DK at the end, but, frankly, it was probably my time anyway.
I will do my best to stay on task, and I promise, I'm not a drama queen by nature! I am very glad to see many of the great people I know from DK, and that comforts me greatly. Hope to see you all around!
And shaharazade, thanks so much again.
Thanks, all. Let's do this!
gbb
Welcome GBB
I hope you do not mind that I abbreviated your name. You can call me GG. LOL
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Thank you!
Of course you can abbreviate -- it's the most obnoxious name to type ever! haha.
This place looks great. Now that I have more time on my hands (ha!), I got a better chance to look around!
I'm so happy to "see" you here, gbb!
I rec'd and tipped your work of art, over there. It's nice here. Welcome.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Your welcome geebeebee
I kid of like typing your handle. Hope you don't a nasty hangover from going cold turkey instead of disconnecting gradually. You went down fighting the good fight. Their loss is our gain. I like drama but even that is wasted on the dkos gangs of lizard brains. Hope you write here where you can let your creativity rip. I'm finding there is no need to even go back and take a look at what they are up to as caucus99percent is now the best of the dkos community and then some.
Welcome aboard, gbb. DK's loss is our gain.
We are very very lucky to have you here at C99!!
I think you'll soon be amazed by how little you will end up missing TOP.
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
Brilliant commet, Shaha! And speaking of "authoritarian"
And speaking of that "authoritarian" thing, I saw an excellent diary at TOP which had a brilliantly succinct characterization:
Authoritarianism On Display Pt 1, by richturc125
“I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell.”
― Harry Truman
I read that diary and wondered if it would be the trigger.
If Geebeebee was bojo'd for his last diary,
then what about the 349 of us who recommended and tipped that diary?
Is Markos going to ban all of us for recommending that diary?
Are we all on The Black List now? I'm just wondering because I expect we are.
If so, Markos is going to lose a long list of valuable users to Daily Kos. I guess he doesn't care.
Kaye
Also...
What about Bakakiba, who hounded Geebeebee all through the thread? Are users like Bakakiba going to be ignored as s/he goes from one thread to another harassing Bernie supporters?
I really have a hard time accepting that Hillary supporters are going to be given license for some of their incendiary commentary in Bernie diaries. It is so unfair!
Kaye
They are the officail clean up crew
and are sanctioned by kos and his minions to 'aggressively' go after anyone who dares disobey his edicts or puts words to their thought crimes. Interesting to me that the site is now a reflection of what the Democratic establishment machine has become. No wonder indies are at 43% and rising. Who wants to be abused, punished and told to GTFO if you don't like the endless austerity and bloody endless war. Fear and loathing and divide and conquer is all they have and I'm not buying it. Unfair doesn't begin to describe what going on.
I wasted my time yesterday
arguing with Armando over censorship. He was his usual obtuse self and also very condescending to me. That was it. I have had enough of that awful place. It does everything it can to destroy your soul. I was never very good at having people tell me what my values should be, least of all kos and minions.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
good on ya for going at that condescending ahole!
They don't deserve you over there gulfgal!!
I agree GG
I went over and poked around today and felt pretty sick to my stomach. The aura isn't like a community, it's like a cross between Lord of the Flies and a witch hunt. Armando acts like 'what? what's wrong?' looking around and pretending everything is honky-dory. This place is feeling like a community so FTOP.
There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams
I unfollowed Armando on Twitter
after he got into a pro-Clinton pissing match with Marcy Wheeler (emptywheel), a Sanders backer. Forget what it was about exactly but he was so snide that I had to get him out of my timeline ASAP. Also unfollowed Daily Kos itself -- still following a few writers who I either know are supporting Sanders or who talk more sports than politics on Twitter.
ha ha you ran him off! (but
ha ha you ran him off! (but he'll be back)
Holy Sh*t!
This is too funny.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Nest Crapper Announces Nest Is Too Crappy
That's exactly what I thought when I saw his diary.
Armando was and is always the first to go ad hominem against a commenter as opposed to the substance of the comment. I was once in a thread where there was some actual discussion going on and he said to me darkly - "I know what you are" or words to that effect, can't recall exact phrase. Whaaa? What I was was someone commenting in a political discussion blog, nothing more or less. He also follows up with smug edicts about whether you are worthy of him taking notice. IMO he is the single most unpleasant supposedly credible poster I have ever come across in the blogs that I frequented.
Edited to reflect that I put something in quotes that could be a paraphrase.
" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "
Gulfgal, it may hearten you to know
that the always poised, pleasant and patient Armando has 'left the building' for a 'vacation' (he says) until the place over there becomes more reasonable, less toxic, and everyone (except himself and his coterie of admirers) stops being so ignorant and ugly. He even posted a brief, woe is me diary (which made the wreck list, ffs!) explaining this.
I immediately looked at hidden comments, to find 2 of his recent comments (with the usual invective ad hom personal insults, of course) with several flags, and another with 1 flag. So, obviously, he got the 'warning' box when next he tried to flay someone, and decided to take himself out of the picture before having to suffer the cruel slings and arrows of being on TO.
Heh.
"When the powerless are shut out of the media, we will make the media irrelevant" ~Anonymous~
Aaaaand, 'mando's flying up-raters
have up-rated all but one of his comments out of hiddens, possibly helping the outraged one in avoiding his well earned official 'time-out' so he can righteously flounce away from TOP, madly clutching his pearls (almost typed 'pears' ) and petticoats, scurrying off to his undisclosed location for a well earned (and undoubtedly Markos-funded) vaca at Democratic Underground.
"When the powerless are shut out of the media, we will make the media irrelevant" ~Anonymous~
wrt Arizona especially...
wrt Arizona especially...
variations on a theme
Election fraud
The Clintons will do anything to regain power. They are disgusting people!
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
It wasn't the Clintons.
God knows I'm no fan of Blonde Ambition and her slimeball husband but they're not to blame. The Clinton machine benefited from Republican incompetence. The State of Arizona runs elections and we have a Koch sponsored right-wing state government in AZ. They are boldly incompetent and proud of it. Most of 'em are dumber than dirt and they love proving that gubmint can't do anything right. We gotta' give credit where credit is due.
We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.
is there anything that happened during the night with
regards to the way people voted until late at night, but officially Clinton was declared as winners already in the early evening, that could be considered illegal and would be a reason to legally challenge the results and the vote and repeat it?
I can't imagine that such a voting procedure like we saw yesterday night would be accepted in any other country, even not in Banana Republics. It's amazing to me that one can't do something against it.
https://www.euronews.com/live
They may have benefited
from the Republican's incompetence but the DNC Democratic Clinton machine efficiently and blatantly practiced their own form of voter fraud. The Third Way Vichy Dems. like Gabby Gifford* was, seem to have there own Goldman Sachs brand of state sponsored competence at maintaining the intolerable Democratic status quo. I'm done with blaming the Republican dumb as dirt pols. Why did the DNC or the Democratic AZ party step in and make sure there were enough ballots. Like in WI it takes two to tango and maybe if the Democrat's fought for the people and did some obstructing of these wholly owned and operated RW fiefdom states we wouldn't be looking at The Mad Bomber vs The Hairball wherein our only choice is once again Koch Bros. vs Goldman Sachs. Even then we get a two fer. It may not of been all the Clinton's machinations but they did everything they could utilize and hide behind the incompetent RW state run elections. Isn't there a official Democratic party in AZ? Where were they?
* The Third Way's Emeritus Co Chairs .... Check out this Democratic rogues gallery including Gabrielle Giffords
http://www.thirdway.org/about#emeritus-co-chairs
I lay the majority of blame
on the Democrats. They were the ones who abdicated their responsibility to the people and went back on their promises of the New Deal. In our era, we always knew where the Republicans stood. The Democrats sold out lock, stock and barrel while still pretending to care. They broke their promises. The Republicans were at least true to theirs even if they were unpalatable.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Excellent essay
Am looking forward to giving it a second read after taking care of a couple of work related things. Longer comment to come.
(I am certainly in agreement with the main thrust of your piece.)
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Thank you
I hope you will make your comment and then do an essay of your own. I look forward to reading what you have to say. Feel free to use anything in here or to disagree. This is how we learn.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Good morning! Fantastic essay to wake up to gulfgal
I would say #3 is more becoming more relevant by the minute.
3) Arrival to power, where conservatives seeking to control rising leftist opposition invite the movement to share power-
The Democratic Party for years now has been but the putative political arm of the left (laughable, I know). Now we are finally at the stage of consolidation with the election of Hillary Clinton. The DNC truly believed she would be elected by acclamation without opposition.
And tellingly, you have Daily Kos, supposedly the voice of liberalism and progressivism in the blogosphere, telling all its inhabitants to fall in line and support The Candidate.
Once the consolidation with the opposition is completed, the actual, and not just the we-play-them-on-the-intenets type of progressivism, will be the literal outcasts of political society, howling plaintively in the woods outside the village.
Cinton-Obama-Clinton is the real implementation stage. After Hillary is elected, liberalism, fiscally speaking, will be the last dead unicorn. Here comes our austerity!
I think the next liberal political movement should be called the I Told You So Party, because that's what we'll be saying as we huddle together over smoking fires in oil drums under a highway overpass.
(Note: coupla things. I know Caucus doesn't like open threads on the front page, but this one is limited to a particular topic, so maybe you guys could make an exception. I would love anyone coming over for a look-see to wonder why they aren't getting community content like this anymore)
" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "
Phoebe, I replied to you below. (n/t)
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Good morning GG
This is America. Voter suppression is ok here. Gitmo is ok too, but Cuba better cut it out!
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
It is sad
Voter suppression and election fraud have become normalized. When people realize that their votes do not matter, then we see turnouts like 2014. In retrospect, I believe that history will show that Bill and Hillary Clinton were among the most responsible for the ultimate demise of this country.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
When I watched Thom Hartman's interview
of Thomas Frank this morning, it all started coming together, particularly #3.
This is why I believe a Clinton Presidency will push us even further right. The best thing to save this country right now would be a real liberal, but the corporatists will never allow that.
Thank you for your wonderful compliment. It takes a lot for me to write, re-write, and re-write anything. I volunteered when we first set up this site about a year ago to do the Open Thread on Wednesdays because I wanted to force myself to write some. Not all my Open Thread topics are serious...though.
This comment was supposed to be in response to Phoebe Loosinhouse.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
c99p search feature works!
gulfgal, I did a search for Hartmann and went right to the video you mention. Thought I'd link it here in case anyone else is interested as I was. (At least I think this is it.)
It is one hour long
but it gave me a better understanding of the psychology that has infected the Democratic party and has led it to become Republican lite. Andnow the leites are so incestuous that they cannot see beyond themselves.
Thank you for the link, O'Linda.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
It is an important interview
if you want to understand how the Dems betrayed us. Good essay, gg98!
Thank you, whyvee! (n/t)
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Bells went off in my head when Thomas Frank
stated that those in control, in terms of wealth and power, now consist of the top 10% and are the elite members of BOTH parties. I remember after Reagan had been in office the statistic that came out then was that the top 10% (obviously, mostly Repubs) had most of the wealth and power in this country. It is so telling, because of the movement of the elite Dems to the right, that that 10% concentration of money and power is still with the Republicans and the Republican-Lites, i.e., Clinton-Obama-Clinton.
This was an excellent article
This was an excellent article on that subject:
They abandoned the 90 percent: How the Reagan Revolution and Third Way politics led America to ruin
Injustice is relatively easy to bear; what stings is justice. -H. L. Mencken
A country without a memory is a country of madmen.-George Santayana
An imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailments of all republics. --Plutarch
Thank you Zeitgeistus!
I added your link (with an HT to you, of course) to the updated essay.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Most welcome, I had just read
Most welcome, I had just read that article and then your post and thought 'Synchronicity!'
Injustice is relatively easy to bear; what stings is justice. -H. L. Mencken
A country without a memory is a country of madmen.-George Santayana
An imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailments of all republics. --Plutarch
Lest we forget...Obama's admiration for Reagan
...another one of the many huge disappointments in Obama.
Thank you, gulfgal,
for the interesting open thread. We are having a blizzard here west of Denver. It's 7:30AM and I am planning to go back to bed. Will be back to re-read and think later.
Stay warm under the covers, O'Linda! (n/t)
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Video of Thom Hartman interview of Thomas Frank
ht to RantingRooster who posted this last night in another thread.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHMYBNNq8eY]
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
This is an extremely important interview
about an extremely important book. I'm first in line at my local library, I'll read it as soon as they get some copies in. It explains the psychology of the NeoDems and accounts for the smug condescension that we see so much of at TOP and in the Party leadership.
We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.
It really explains a lot
of why the Democrats ignore the poor and working classes. They are not of those classes themselves and look down upon them. What they fail to see is that in ignoring them (90%) of the citizens and thinking of them as disposable, they are setting our country up for something very ugly.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Such an excellent interview.
This really needs to go viral. Do you know if anyone put it on Reddit? I don't tweet or FB, but it needs to be there, too.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Hi gg, great OT, I saw the interview yesterday night and
went to sleep so late that I am so tired now, I can't go through your whole OT. Will come back later. But already great discussions here. Thanks.
https://www.euronews.com/live
Some randomish thoughts
Agree that Clinton and Trump are symptoms rather than causes. The underlying dynamics that have caused these to be our likely choices have been in play for some time now - certainly several decades. The stage was set for two careerists who's ambition was never matched by either talent or a moral compass. Winning makes the journey moral in these people's minds.
Cruz imo is much more scary than either Clinton or Trump. I watched a segment on CBS News this morning and he was so appalling that even the anchors were shocked. In a nutshell, Cruz was espousing xenophobic views and suggesting policy regarding the treatment of Muslims that played directly into one of your Paxman quotes:
Specifically this:
This opens the gateway to a whole new dimension of hell. Next comes Krystallnacht and then straight on to Auschwitz.
On a more general note we really do need to look at the conditions that allow for such flawed individuals to rise to the top. We are not talking about minor annoyances but rather the fact that one has to be a full on sociopath to succeed in today's political climate. If we don't we'll just end up with a succession of these characters until one does take hold and the jump from proto-fascism to full on World War III fascism is made. This is why its the institutions that should be coming under the microscope to a much greater extent than they are and that this discussion somehow needs to be moved beyond the walled garden of Left discourse and into the mainstream.
Thanks for a really interesting essay and a reminder that I really need to spend more time getting to grips with Paxman's thinking.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Excellent comment
that is worthy of an essay of its own.
Chris Hedges has been warning us with his Death of the Liberal Class. The firewall between the people and a right wing dictator has been systematically dismantled. This has created a vacuum in which a Trump or a Cruz suddenly can come in take over. I personally agree that Cruz is far more frightening and yet the Republican establishment is looking for a way in which Trump can be pushed aside in favor of him. That is because Trump is not part of the Republican establishment so he is a wild card that cannot be controlled. But I wonder how much they could control Cruz. Hillary is the product of a very incestuous and corrupt Democratic party.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
I have the thought that it is more than
~just~ not being able to control Trump... that is obvious...hell he cannot control himself!
No, I really do think it has a lot to do with the Theocratic factor... there may be some cynics in the Teapublican party, but there are far more Theocrats...in BOTH parties.
Please help the Resilience Resource Library grow by adding your links.
First Nations News
Jeb Bush's endorsement of Cruz
is significant because it speaks to this. The Bush family, head of the country club Republicans (with a dash of Neocon thrown in) are now supporting the theocratic wing of the party to stop the outsider.
The press should be part of the system of checks and balances and should function as a 4th estate. Of course the American press doesn't do this - they function as the megaphone of the powerful. It looked as if the rise of the progressive blogs, Dkos, TP, TPM, etc. could start the reversal of that process but unfortunatley they have just been assimilated, Borglike, into the greater media landscape. I know it is early days but it is possible that c99 represents the beginning of the second wave of progressive blogs. This second wave should be stronger than the first because it is led by people who witnessed and understand the process that corrupted the first wave.
This is a reply to GG
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
The second wave of progressive blogs - I like that! nt
" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "
It really does feel that way to me
This place represents the future.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Cruz and HRC are both unacceptable to me.
Drumpf is less frightening to me than Cruz and HRC. So, it becomes more evident with every essay, every diary, every article, every report - American needs Bernie Sanders to be POTUS. It's the only way.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
DOUBLE POST - SORRY! Cruz and HRC are both unacceptable to me.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Oh hell...where better to post this, eh?
Please help the Resilience Resource Library grow by adding your links.
First Nations News
Great post GG...
I was thinking of this last night, how our party and liberal class have left us down, and it's was summed up perfectly for me when I read that Jann Wenner was going to publish his endorsement of Hillary in Rolling Stone on Friday. Ah yes, the once great music rag, now glossy mag, founded by another lucky spermer who also must have come to believe he's hit a triple, and now wants to preach to us that It's "easy to blame billionaires for everything, but quite another to know what to do about it." Well...fuck you, Jann, and your glossy rag. You're such an egalitarian, this is such a meritocracy, isn't it? You dickhead, we're fucked and you ain't helping. You've just distilled the very essence of what's wrong with the elites in the Democratic party. What to do about it...fuck you. My Gawd.
I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~
Can't help wondering
what Matt Taibi makes of that endorsement. If he does decide to share his feelings it will make for a great read I suspect.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Matt answered that on twitter, when asked about it...
Matt Taibbi @mtaibbi 12h12 hours ago Jersey City, NJ
Matt Taibbi Retweeted Jonathan Boykin
As with the Times and other outlets, the editors are entitled to their opinion. It's not mine.
@mtaibbi gross bernie attack in the upcoming RS hillary endorsement. as a fan of yours, i hope you quit / speak up. http://bloom.bg/1XLxv54
I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~
It would be interesting
if RS gave him space for an Op Ed from an opposing view point. Don't expect it will happen though.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
on the other hand...
rs has given him space for at least a few (that i have seen, there may be more) very pro-sanders pieces. (and here's another another.)
also, if you check out the list of sanders endorsers on wikipedia, you'll find taibbi listed.
It certainly should.
Taibbi is an important writer. Certainly he's RS's best. The Nation gave Walsh space to write her ridiculous "I'm not ashamed of supporting HRC" piece. That was unintentionally hilarious. Ashamed? Of joining the Dem power structure and everybody who is ANYBODY? Ashamed of joining Planned Parenthood's Grossly-Overpaid Director, Dailykos's founder, and apparently 90% of America's living civil rights "icons"? Ooh, what a brave little maverick she is. My God. Walsh reminds me of Nixon, who liked to do the politically easy thing then brag about how hard it was to have done the "right" thing. I suppose there are people who believe that hogwash.
Twain Disciple
(No subject)
Injustice is relatively easy to bear; what stings is justice. -H. L. Mencken
A country without a memory is a country of madmen.-George Santayana
An imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailments of all republics. --Plutarch
1971 comic already had Jann Wenner pegged as a “hip capitalist”
If I remember correctly, it was a three-pager by Tom Veitch and Greg Irons, in this issue:
http://www.comiccollectorlive.com/LiveData/Issue.aspx?id=94f50137-3e97-4...
We knew...I think we always knew,
I stopped reading with any kind of regularity in the early to mid-eighties, we knew where he came from and we saw the big sell-out as it happened. Rolling Stone had what the underground press it mimicked lacked, money and connections, but it was all that was available to us kids in the 'burbs.
I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~
Thank you, triv!
We all have to do what we can to connect the dots for ourselves and then spread the word.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
We all do what we can GG...
I wish I could do more.
I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~
Hunter Thompson
is probably rolling in his grave. I first read Hunter Thompson as a kid and every two weeks? got my copy of the newsprint lefty hippe rag.
Pages