Thursday Open Thread 6-21-2018


Humanity seems to continually exploring the best ways to govern populations. Today's OT looks at a few different philosophies, governmental practices and transition periods in China.


I Ching (The Book of Changes)

There are countless commentaries on and interpretations of the "Book of Changes". They can be divided into two great schools. The first one used the as a book for divination, in combination with phenomena of universe and nature. This tradition lived on in the Neo-Confucian interpretation of the Yijing by Liu Mu (1011-1064) and Shao Yong (1011-1077). Many Daoist masters were interested in the Yijing, like Chen Tuan (trad. 872-989) from the Tang period. Other Neo-Confucian scholars studying the Yijing were Hu Yuan (993-1059), Cheng Yi (1033-1107), Li Guang (1078-1159) and Yang Wanli (1127-1206). From the Han period two such books are preserved, namely fragments of apocryphal texts subsumed under the name Yiwei and Jing Fang's Jingshi yizhuan. Many Qing period (1644-1911) scholars interpreted these two writings, for example Hui Dong (1697-1758; Yi Han xue, Zhouyi shu ), Jiang Fan (1761-1831; Zhouyi shubu ) or Zhang Huiyan (1761-1802; Zhouyi Yushi yi , Yiyi bielu ).

The second school interpreted the Yijing on a philosophical background, making it part of the tradition of Confucian thought. This interpretation was introduced by Zheng Xuan and Wang Bi and continued by the Jin period scholar Han Kangbo (332-380) and the Song period Neo-Confucians, in first place Cheng Yi (Chengshi yizhuan). There were also commentators who are not easily classified as members of the one or the other of the two schools, like the Tang period scholars Kong Yingda (Zhouyi zhengyi) and Li Dingzuo (8./9. cent.; Zhouyi jijie ), as well as the Great Southern Song period Neo-Confucian Zhu Xi (1130-1200; Zhouyi benyi ). Modern scholars have contributed new approaches to the study and interpretation of the , especially the connection between the book and conditions prevailing in history, like Guo Moruo (1892-1978), Wen Yiduo (1899-1946), or Hu Pu'an (1878-1947). The most important modern commentaries to the Yijing are Gao Heng's (1900-1986) Zhouyi gujing jinzhu , Li Jingchi's (1902-1975) Zhouyi tongyi and Wen Yiduo's Zhouyi yizheng leizuan .

Methods to using Yi (I) pictures of Hexagrams and trigrams without translated dialog and commentary.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWLBqIY0iKU&feature=youtu.be]

Rule of Law

Legalism (or legism) is a state philosophy flourishing during the Warring States period 戰國 (5th cent.-221 BCE). It became the leading doctrine under the Qin dynasty 秦 (221-206 BCE) and was, together with Confucianism, the philosophical foundation of the Chinese state administration at least until the end of the Qing dynasty 清 (1644-1911). The core concept of the legalists is that state and society are effectively organized by administrative and penal law (fazhi 法治 "rule by law") that is applied to all persons equally.

Peace Not War

The Mozi 墨子 "Master Mo" is a book compiled by the early Warring States period 戰國 (5th cent.-221 BCE) philosopher Mo Di 墨翟 (ca. 476- ca. 390 BCE)
...
The main philosophical concepts of Mozi are universal love and a prohibition of offensive war. These two behaviours will bring harmony in society and prevent the strong exploiting the weak and the rich suppressing the poor. The will of Heaven, which loves mankind, has to be followed by the ruler, who likewise has to love his people (ai min 愛民) and to bring profit to his people (li min 利民).

Daosism

The second great philosophical school of China, after Confucianism (means ancestral ritus), is Daoism (daojia 道家), whose most important philosophical pre-Han books are the Daodejing 道德經 of Laozi 老子 and the book of Zhuangzi 莊子. All of them show as an integral concept of Daoism the withdrawal from the worldy affairs and the self-cultivation. The latter concept results in the seek for eternal life with different methods like herbal drinks or meditation, leading to the development of alchemy. The Zhuangzi even sees a throughout relationship in every existing thing that one has to overcome, making the Daoism similar to Buddhism.

Confucianism - Maintain Traditional Values

There were "Confucians before Confucius" (Li-Hsiang Lisa Rosenlee, Confucianism and Women: A Philosophical Interpretation). The corresponding Chinese term is ru 儒, which is interpreted by ancient philologists as "soft" or "peaceful" (rou 柔: Shuowen jiezi 說文解字, Zheng Xuan's 鄭玄 commentary to the Liji 禮記) , meaning someone who is able to appease and becalm others by a certain decent behavior.
...
The ru were specialists in rituals and music, with an extraordinary focus on funeral rites and ancestor veneration. These rituals were so complex that all courts of the various states, as well as members of the wealthy class, were in need of such experts.

Farm Report
Writing an OT every week kept a focus on the day to day, week to week and seasonal changes that has not been a priority in my life previously. They were the background noise to societal events of politics, career moves, family obligations, holidays, MSM (main street media) crisis of the month and sports. Even if one is not a sports fan the season of sports overlays our society and impacts our lives.

Most of this year has been very similar to last. A dryer spring, until today. The last few hours rain has been falling, with an occasional clap of thunder.

soe rain.JPG

Share
up
0 users have voted.

Comments

The Aspie Corner's picture

up
0 users have voted.

Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

studentofearth's picture

@The Aspie Corner vulnerable individuals as pawns in their political goals. Been frustrated for years how many forget the history of the Democrats leaders suppressing vulnerable populations. One target since the 80's has been whites not of the non-professional class or with disabilities.

Equality turned from easing everyone to a better life to lowering the accepted level to living conditions and persecution for all. The process will continue up the food chain as different economic groups fall.

Saw your post about being eligible for grants. It would be nice if the funds covered classes that expanded your political activism skills and philosophy.

up
0 users have voted.

Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

Windy and cool on this Maine lake today. Good for sailing.

Tao is the natural order of the universe whose character human intuition must discern in order to realize the potential for individual wisdom.

up
0 users have voted.
studentofearth's picture

@QMS is a subject I am uncomfortable writing about. My knowledge is too shallow. It is easy to find information that perpetuates modern assumptions.

  • It is part of the new age practices to create a harmonious life (reminds me of prosperity evangelism.)
  • The foolishness of Taoism in the quest of immortality and improved health (just look at the carnage of modern medicine with surgical complications, drug side effects, economic destruction of individuals/families and almost religious belief in its effectiveness by most of the population.
  • Being based in superstitions and association with Chinese astrology. Yet, part of the verification Jesus is the son of God includes three wise men from the East and a bright star.
  • Martial arts practitioners understand Taoism. Martial arts are a physical practice were developed within the practice of Taoism and understanding requires more than trained muscle, skin and bone.
  • Lao Tzu is the source of Taoism. Taoism existed prior to the life of Lao Tzu. He wasAn important voice whose opinions were documented. This phrase found in Lionel Giles translation, The Sayings of Lao-Tzu,has always bothered me.

    Therefore the Sage, when he governs, empties their minds and fills their bellies, weakens their inclinations and strengthens their bones. His constant object is to keep the people without knowledge and without desire, or to prevent those who have knowledge from daring to act. He practises inaction, and nothing remains ungoverned.

In my writing if I lead people askew in your opinion, please clarity or direct where to find more information.
May the winds take you and your sailboat where you desire.

edited - link update and clarification

up
0 users have voted.

Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

@studentofearth I only know it as 'the way' in the ancient sense. Not a thing, more a description of process. Yeah, sailing whichever way the wind blows.

up
0 users have voted.
Pluto's Republic's picture

@studentofearth

Therefore the Sage, when he governs, empties their minds and fills their bellies...

Is not in the linked text to 65. Perhaps a different translation? Or a different passage? It sounds familiar....

up
0 users have voted.

____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
studentofearth's picture

@Pluto's Republic The phrase is from Lionel Giles translation, The Sayings of Lao-Tzu, the Government section. (correcting now)

I copied the link of the James Legge translation, Tao Te Ching.

If possible, I try and read multiple translation to clarify the message in my mind. A character may have multiple meanings and the translator makes a judgement which to use.

Thank you for noticing and letting me know.

up
0 users have voted.

Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

mhagle's picture

I am finding your essays on Chinese history to be very thought provoking. After thousands of years of civilization, to be overtaken by brutal communism in the last century is sobering. But now today they are emerging and evolving. Wow.

It finally rained here yesterday after 2 dry weeks. Yay!

Working in the garden every morning. Killing squash bugs. Got the massive onion harvest cured, tied up and hanging. Have harvested quite a few butternut squashes. Experimented with freezing them. Cut one in half, scooped out the seeds, put in a freezer bag and into the freezer. Took it out and ate it the next day. Yum. Formerly I would bake the squash then freeze it like a casserole. Too much work! Freezing them raw worked just fine. Tomatoes look terrible but have harvested a few. Eating blackberries . . . figs, pomegranates, and peaches on the trees. Sunflowers making seeds. Giant jerusalem artichoke plants. Melon and squash vines growing everywhere. Eggplant blooming.

Nice to have a spot where I can blather on about my garden. Smile My family is probably tired of hearing about it!

Wishing you all well on this Thursday!

up
0 users have voted.

Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

studentofearth's picture

@mhagle Your sharing successes and failures it is very inspirational. Like the butternut idea. Could use the freezer to store instead of the a root cellar that has not been built yet.

Brutality of communism needs to be compared to the brutality people were living with during the occupation of the Western nations and Japanese after the Opium Wars and financial reparations.

In addition to the drain of silver, by 1838 the number of Chinese opium addicts had grown to between four and twelve million[21] and the Daoguang Emperor demanded action. Officials at the court who advocated legalizing and taxing the trade were defeated by those who advocated suppressing it.

Wonder where history would have lead the world if legalizing had been chosen?

up
0 users have voted.

Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

mhagle's picture

@studentofearth

The "before communism" factors. I know so little of Chinese history. Thanks again. Smile

up
0 users have voted.

Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

detroitmechworks's picture

I find that the older I get, the more I'm interested in communal/community oriented ways. The ego of youth has given way to the ego of the old, and I admit freely that the opportunity to interact with others in a format that does not require the outlay of funds is appealing.

I honestly wish there was a modern equivalent to the bath-house or Gymnasium/forum. Judo comes close, but it's extremely focused as the space is limited. If I had my way, I'd love a large open space to practice, similar to the enclosures they have in Japan and China. Of course, those have a much more communal spirit to their social interactions, so it makes sense. A large open space is far more valuable than people realize, and the elimination of them through copious amounts of STUFF is an extremely poor choice.

We don't really have a place where people go to see adult interaction anymore. And I mean ADULT interaction. Discussion of philosophy, conversation, laugh, tears, love, etc. It's been relegated to dingy bar rooms where the main goal is the product. Instead we are treated to a false interaction, based off viewings of viewings of viewings, presented to us and treated as truth. Even Theater has more verisimilitude that the remembered memories of how humans act presented on the screens.

Universities have lost all value as a social environment that prepares for the real world. Instead it's become a 4 year bacchanalia with occasional responsibilities and the ability to not have to deal with anything you don't want to. Of course, I shouldn't be surprised to see the spirit of the Academy debased by corporations. When you sell out, you shouldn't be surprised to see the quality of your product dropped to the bare minimum possible.

Aaaand I will end my old man ranting. I just remember that my children always tell me that they learn more from talking with me than they do in school. I don't know everything in the world, but unlike many, at least I don't think I know what I don't know.

up
0 users have voted.

I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

studentofearth's picture

@detroitmechworks in America has limited the population to primarily places catering to what at one time would be considered adolescent behavior.

We don't really have a place where people go to see adult interaction anymore. And I mean ADULT interaction.

I haven't visit to many dingy bars, but ones visited in the past did not generate deep, thoughtful interactions. Schooling for children raised in the 1950's started the shift of a developing a product to work for corporations. Each decade the push to memorize a fact and recite on a test became more wide spread. No differences for opinions or nuances.

Some of us were lucky enough to have a family member, local school or a teacher that instilled learning for learning sake, how to explore ideas and debate opinions to clarify thought not win an argument.

up
0 users have voted.

Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

detroitmechworks's picture

@studentofearth that Star Wars is marketed to teenagers, and yet it's adult men who obsess over it. The mentality to ascribe such value to a teenager's power fantasy is disturbing to say the least.

And Dingy bars are a poor substitute, absolutely agreed. But such is the nature of capitalism... if it doesn't turn an immediate profit...

up
0 users have voted.

I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

Lookout's picture

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcAMXm9zITg (52 min)

Tucson receives just 11 inches of rainwater per year, but Brad argues this is enough. “Tucson has over a 4,000 year history of continuous farming despite this being a drylands desert community. People thrived creating crops, domesticating crops that are uniquely adapted to this climate, but in less than 100 years we almost wiped it out by becoming reliant on very extractive pumps, extracting the groundwater, diverting the river to the extent that we actually killed our river, we dropped our groundwater table over 300 feet so we didn’t want to plug into that paradigm.”

Today, Lancaster’s downtown Tucson neighborhood (Dunbar/Spring) is alive with drought-tolerant, food-bearing trees and residents harvest from the barrel cactus (chutneys, hair conditioner from fruit), the prickly pear cactus (juice, syrup & natural sweeteners from fruit), the ironwood tree (peanut-flavored nuts, processed like edamame), jojoba (oil, coffee substitute), mesquite (“native carob”, flour) and sweets from the “iconic saguaro cactus”.

Controlling water is a root to some of the Chinese philosophy...

The history book Guoyu 國語 says that the taming of the floods was the reason why the highest lord or god (shangdi 上帝), or Emperor Shun 舜, bestowed upon Yu the rule over the empire (tianxia 天下 "all under Heaven"). He was also granted the family name (xing 姓) Si 姒, with the tribesname (shi 氏) Xia. He is therefore also called Xia-Yu 夏禹.

http://chinaknowledge.de/History/Myth/personsyu.html

All the best on the farm or where ever you find yourselves!

up
0 users have voted.

“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Azazello's picture

@Lookout @Lookout
and rainwater harvesting is definitely on my list of things to do when I get the energy/money. That 11 inches of rainfall we get is equally split between two separate rainy seasons, one in the winter and one in the summer. The summer rains, we call 'em monsoons, are due to start any time now. Because of the contour of our house, two thirds of our roof area drains off of one 14 foot section. By installing a gutter on that section and directing it into a holding tank we could keep our landscaping healthy in between those two short rainy seasons. One of these days ...
Oh, and I think we'll stay with the traditional indoor toilet.

up
0 users have voted.

We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.

Lookout's picture

@Azazello

...and we get 52+ inches a year. It just doesn't fall when you need it most. I used 2-1000 gal concrete septic tanks and I'm thinking of adding a 3rd down at the garden. Currently it is gravity flow, but I'll have to add a pump if I add the garden tank.

good luck with your project!

up
0 users have voted.

“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

studentofearth's picture

@Azazello with a shovel to redirect and store water in soil by plants. It took a year of watching the rain runoff; type of weeds sprouting and surviving, landscape plants response to length of times between irrigation applied and if I made a small change what happened. You could start a water project by keeping notes and photos to identify the natural small watershed on your property that can be influenced without a tank installation.

Just added an extender on one of my downspouts and split the water distribution between two small water shed areas. Very small less than 200 sq ft for each water shed area. It decreased flooding in one part of the lawn/landscape area and created enough water to support a shrub in another.

up
0 users have voted.

Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

Azazello's picture

@studentofearth
making berms and swales. I've identified a large low spot in the back yard. I intend to put a citrus tree right in the middle of it. It's a no-brainer.

up
0 users have voted.

We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.

studentofearth's picture

@Lookout Dynasty to stay in power. The ability to control water from causing damage and enhance human life is one of the Mandates of a ruler worthy of leading China. Complex water works of transportation, mechanical energy, crop growth and flood control were quite complex.

Brad Lancaster is good teacher for low cost and practical water management. It is easy to get focused on the technical. When it breaks the financial resources for repairs is not always available.

up
0 users have voted.

Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

CS in AZ's picture

@Lookout

I am also in Tucson, but I didn’t know about him or this project and his work.

My husband and I just watched this 17 minute ted-talk style presentation he did on these principles for water management, and his plan to revitalize our rivers — actually bringing them back to life eventually. Pretty amazing. Now my husband is out looking at the yard to see where he can put this to use. He’s inspired. Smile

In this talk he explains how and where he learned about this process (Africa), and how it can be implemented anywhere. How important for saving the water tables and rivers.

He’s even gotten the City of Tucson to offer rebates and incentives to homeowners to do this, and they also made requirements for all new roads, parking lots, etc. to use these concepts to harvest and save the rain for irrigation and grow native plants. It doesn’t require big expensive systems or tanks and stuff, he’s not selling a product, it’s about landscaping, basically. And some gray water use.

Great stuff, very inspiring. Thank you!

up
0 users have voted.
studentofearth's picture

@CS in AZ and the lessons he learned (53 minutes)
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6_WZ789lpM]

up
0 users have voted.

Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

CS in AZ's picture

@studentofearth

We just watched this, it was just what my husband was looking for, more insight into how to apply this at our home and maybe in our neighborhood. The core concepts and how to adapt them to unique places.

Thank you.

We live at a major drainage point for rainwater runoff, at the bottom point in the area where water is channeled into the tanque verde wash, which is a very large (for around here) riverbed, and occasional massive river during the summer rainstorms. So much water flows by our house sometimes, it’s amazing. But then sometimes we have 100+ days with no rain. It’s hard to imagine how this can work, but otoh, you can see that it does. We struggle to keep our trees and plants alive, and feel guilty about the water use on their behalf, while all this water just runs by. We’ve already seen ways we can make improvements after watching this video.

up
0 users have voted.
Pluto's Republic's picture

...of the origins of Chinese philosophy. I like how you tie your personal almanac into place, as well.

up
0 users have voted.

____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato