Initial skirmish of World War 3: the Battle of the Black Sea. Hint, we lost.

So you think about what does this mean? First, it means that the missile lobbing contests of North Korea and the US are really a side-show. The US cannot and will not invade or bomb North Korea for many reasons. One of the most potent reasons is the massive loss of life, even if restricted to conventional weapons. Seoul's megacity of 12,000,000 is within easy striking range of standard artillery as well as short range missiles. There is no effective defense of Seoul possible. Secondly the Chinese, despite all the Trump wining and dining of Xi Jinping, will hardly hesitate to bolster their support for their satellite, even though have currently closed the border to North Koreans seeking to flee northward. Finally the US cannot financially afford a large scale war, especially while fighting 6 or 7 or 8 wars now.

But, you might say, what about Syria? Neocons are just fucking crazy enough to think the unthinkable as Herman Kahn said. But even Mad Dog Mattis isn't that nuts to let them get their way. Trump will listen to Mattis. His trust, warranted or not, has already been manifested in allowing Mattis to order another shipment of Soylent Green to the Afghanistan meat grinder. But, whether you like Mattis's politics or not, he is a student of war in the same way George Patton was. Russia and Syria are kicking ass in Syria, taking down ISIS, al-Qaeda, al-Nusra and whatever mangy outfits are fighting the Assad regime. Americans who know anything about this will be inflamed by tacit support of these "moderate" terrorists. Russia has already sent a strong signal, which hopefully the tone-deaf neocons can hear, that Russia will lock radars on to any aircraft in Syrian airspace. That triggers US coalitions forces' (now minus Australia) airplane radars. Can Trump be that stupid? Maybe. Who knows?

So what about the Black Sea. Russia has essentially controlled that large body of water since driving Army Group South out of it during 1943. By retaking Crimea from Ukraine, Russia secured its grasp on the Sea, making it essentially theirs. Of course, the Black Sea being quite large has significant amounts of "international" waters. But think about a Russian battle fleet perching in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico, to get an idea of the geopolitics of that Sea.

Yet, this is exactly what the United States has done repeatedly to one degree or another: sent battle-ready military vessels into what is essentially Russia's lake. These forays don't usually make much news in the US, just as the DNC lawsuit doesn't and Bernie's campaign didn't. Besides being a "show of force", intelligence gathering via electronic means is a major reason for these expeditions.

So, let us turn to the players in the Battle of the Black Sea in which not a single shot was fired nor was anything sunk or shot down. Principal player on the US side was the USS Donald Cook.

The other major player were two 40 year old Sukhoi SU-24 aircraft. Despite its relatively old age, this plane has configurable wing alignment and flies at mach 1.06 for the SU-24MK model with a combat radius of 615 km at low altitude. Pictured below is the SU-24M2 variant. Here are some facts about the SU-24.

Here is a map of the Cook's Black Sea posting in April, 2014:

Then, something extremely unusual happened while the Cook was on routine patrol. The action was so horrific that more than 20 crew members immediately resigned after the cruise. What happened? Without equivocation, it has been learned that the two SU-24's circling the Cook, disarmed as they were, completely disabled the Cook's sophisticated radars, of which there were at least 8 types. The ship was dead in the water, with no means to respond. Not a shot had been fired.

What happened next has to be seen to be believed. After the Cook had been completely disabled, the two Russian jets made 12 mock attack passes around the Cook, totally undeterred and unopposed. Watch the video, shot from the deck of the Cook, even though 20 minutes long to see this extraordinary event.

[video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6JGkPcgV9c]

A new weapon system was unveiled in the Black Sea called Khibiny. Learn this word, because this technology renders almost all of the US Navy's vessels helpless. The more sophisticated the radars, the easier they are to defeat. Khibiny delivers EMP (electromagnetic pulses) to disable ships.

Wikipedia has something to say about Khibiny.:

The system is designed for radio direction-finding and probing signal source irradiation allowing it to distort reflected signal parameters. This helps to
1. Delay aircraft detection;
2. Mask the true subject against false reflections;
3. Cause range finding difficulties, namely in speed and angular positions;
4. Degrading Maintenance Mode "on the aisle" when scanning antenna beam radar;
5. Increase the time and difficulty of capturing an object during real-time active scanning.

But Wikipedia didn't mention its ability to completely shut down a vessel. Wonder why? Here's a picture of an SU-34 (not the 24s actually involved) with Khibiny on the wingtips.

The implications of this are enormous. Our entire Navy rendered useless unless some work-arounds can be developed. With this technology, the Russians could send a rubber boat loaded with explosives to collide with just about any naval vessel. You know, like the USS Cole.

Does this shake your confidence in our vaunted MIC a little bit? You understand why this story never received much play in the press. Well, if this news doesn't shake you, wait for installment 2: Defeat in the South China Sea.

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CB's picture

As I had said in previous post, Australia's government will follow their master's desires - unless they want to get regime-changed (again). Australia is an extremely important geo-strategic location for both the US military and intelligence in South East Asia.


Australia back flying in Syria

22 June 2017

Edit: Removed inadvertent gay slur. The original meaning (one who straddles his master's leg while grabbing a boot as the master pushes on the servant's ass with his other foot in order to remove the boot) is no longer recognized - shows my age.

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@CB

Also how the language shrinks - and how weird it is that any unintended reference taken as being to someone actually being gay is still considered a slur.

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

coloradoblue's picture

"Russia has already sent a strong signal, which hopefully the tone-deaf neocons can hear, that Russia will lock radars on to any aircraft in Syrian airspace. That triggers US coalitions forces' (now minus Australia) airplane radars."

There have been some limited reports that Russia has walked back this threat, but imagine things can change daily if not hourly in America's Syrian clusterfuck. Thanks Obama and Hillary.

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Dear Dems: You lost the WH, Senate, House, dozens of governors, state level SOS and AG and about 1,000 state legislative seats. Maybe...you're doing something wrong.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@coloradoblue I know I'm gonna take some flack for this, but I'm so goddamned glad she's not in office.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Alligator Ed's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Alligator Ed Well...people get pissed if I show a preference for Trump in any way, because he's so awful. And he is. He has just one thing that he (sort of/kind of) got right: nuclear war with Russia is a bad idea. He seems willing to give up that one right idea under pressure. But he's dragging his ass in the direction they want, unlike Hillary, who could hardly wait to get started, as Jimmy Dore once said:

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

Me, too! Really, anyone knowing anything of the Mad Bomber's history and tendencies would feel that way. Sorta like discovering that a nasty skin rash isn't an incurable and fast-moving flesh-eating disease, but something that you might potentially survive, even if with scarring and disability.

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Ellen North Excellent metaphor. That's EXACTLY what it's like.

"Oh, it isn't leprosy! It's just psoriasis!"

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

gulfgal98's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal I do not think I have ever seen an openly more hawkish and blood thirsty candidate for President than Hillary Clinton. She was the deep state's dream candidate.

As much as I dislike Trump or any Rethug, I am still grateful that we do not have Hillary in the White House because of her war mongering.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Neocon thinking might go directly to missile-launched nukes. I'm totally ignorant of the military strategy you are working through here, and I value any and all information you can bring us. So, thanks. I just see the prospect of Russian parity, much less superiority, in any area as a more possible reason for Neocons to think worst case scenario and go whole hog bye-bye world.

The brilliance of Gorbachev essentially disarming, in agreeing to allow us to dismantle the Soviet Union's nuclear weapons, was that he saw the willingness of the U.S. nutcase deep state to end life on earth if they couldn't get their way. I think, unfortunately, Putin is in that same position. But he seems to be trying to make the case that he will not back down, hoping common sense will win out. Our problem is that our Neocon leadership has no common sense, no concern about ending life on earth.

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Alligator Ed's picture

@Linda Wood as long as they have their bunkers.

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gulfgal98's picture

@Alligator Ed a survivable nuclear war. A nuclear war will destroy ALL life, so a bunker is only good until you need food and water. They have lost sight of the inter-dependency of living organisms upon one another.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

@Linda Wood

But even apart from the nukes, they're destroying the global natural life-support system and making existence in every respect as hazardous as possible for everyone - including themselves, as there will be no safe products, food, water or air remaining - simply to maximize short-term corporate/billionaire profits and cheques/investments/kick-backs to themselves.

Backing down to bullies helps them worsen, and if we're all going down anyway in the very near future, isn't it better that at least some go down fighting, rather than simply bending over?

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Alligator Ed's picture

@Ellen North [video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjCFyw67TPs]

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@Linda Wood The lunatics in the MIC wanted JFK to pre-approve first strike nuke use against Laos and even Cuba. I had no idea anyone could be that ignorant of the ramifications. Even if they figured their immediate family would be OK because of a shelter and supplies, they'd be living in devastation with no civilization left. I'm more concerned about their thought processes now, knowing that there are bunkers with years' worth of supplies with undoubtedly much better living conditions in them than whatever existed in the 50's and 60's.

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Liz

@lizbeeo

And Virtual Reality to 'live in'... crazy buggers...

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Big Al's picture

counter/counter electronic warfare system that literally makes Russian jets go "poof".
And how does a Navy seaman "resign". I wish they would have let us do that when I was in.

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@Big Al I thought about that too. I guess one can get what we called "chaptered out" in the Army - claim PTSD type stress? That or injury and I'm not sure that you get an honorable from that either.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

Big Al's picture

@lizzyh7 You don't just resign because you had your little feelings hurt, the Navy won't let you do that. I haven't seen anything corroborating information on this.

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gulfgal98's picture

@Big Al That part was not quite believable to me either.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Steven D's picture

that talks about Russia's overall Electronic Warfare capabilities and US lack of countermeasures in 2015: http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/10/21/russia-winning-the-electronic-war/

Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges, commander of U.S. Army units in Europe, has described Russian EW capabilities in Ukraine as “eye-watering.” Ronald Pontius, deputy to Army Cyber Command’s chief, Lt. Gen. Edward Cardon, told a conference this month that “you can’t but come to the conclusion that we’re not making progress at the pace the threat demands.”

The electronic war was on display from the start of the Russian incursion into Crimea in the spring of 2014. Not long after Russian EW equipment began rolling into the region, Ukrainian troops began to find that their radios and phones were unusable for hours at a time. Meanwhile, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, an international conflict-monitoring group, has consistently reported that its drones watching the conflict in eastern Ukraine have been “subject to military-grade GPS jamming,” forcing monitors to scrub missions taking stock of the war below.

At the forefront of the push to get the U.S. Army up to speed is Col. Jeffrey Church, the Army’s chief of electronic warfare. But it won’t be easy. Dealing with falling budgets, a lack of EW equipment, and a force that is shrinking by tens of thousands of troops, Church says that he has managed to train only a few hundred soldiers — a fraction of the EW forces that are fielded by potential adversaries like Russia and China. [...]

Last March, Deputy Defense Secretary Robert Work created an EW executive committee led by Frank Kendall, the undersecretary for acquisition, technology, and logistics. At the time, Work noted that the Defense Department had “lost focus on electronic warfare at the programmatic and strategic level.”

Although the Army is running a number of studies to quickly update and better integrate EW capability, none will be completed soon. In the meantime, Church said, soldiers must start training for new kinds of wars — namely, those that will increasingly depend on the kinds of sophisticated electromagnetic weapons that are becoming a mainstay for America’s most powerful conventional adversaries.

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"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott

Steven D's picture

@Steven D @Steven D in pdf that provides further information about Russia's EW capabilities:

http://posse.gatech.edu/sites/default/files/pubfiles/Loukianova-Posse_Ru...

Today, Russian military officials view EW and ECM as an inexpensive, yet key determinants in the conduct and outcome of combat.35 They posit that “new developments allow to achieve information dominance over the adversary by the suppression of its [command and control] systems, achieve air superiority by neutralization of enemy radar, and deal with many other tasks.” As a Russian EW officer explained:

“There is nothing surprising that in the current circumstances, EW —as a relatively inexpensive and easily implemented means to disrupt the functioning of an enemy’s radar and other systems and to defend one’s own analogous systems from interference—is emerging as a priority and a focus for development. In certain circumstances, use of EW approaches can be viewed as asymmetric measures that negate the benefits of an adversary’s highly sophisticated systems and means of armed combat.”

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"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott

detroitmechworks's picture

@Steven D could not be clearer than a simple look at our infantry arms.

US: M4 - over engineered piece of crap designed to put out large numbers of bullets at high accuracy, but redesigned to limit automatic fire. Hard to clean to the point that cleaning the weapon is seen as a punishment by most soldiers, and the last thing you ever want to do is fire it. Crappy sight that requires specific training to use properly and requires precise calibration. Each one costs over a thousand dollars to make

Russia: AK47 and variants- Rifle based off German and American weapons of Ww2. Refined over decades. Cheap, fairly accurate, and easy to maintain. Basic sight accurate to effective range. Can and often is built with hand tools.

Anybody else seeing the problem here?

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

thanatokephaloides's picture

@detroitmechworks

US: M4 - over engineered piece of crap designed to put out large numbers of bullets at high accuracy, but redesigned to limit automatic fire. Hard to clean to the point that cleaning the weapon is seen as a punishment by most soldiers, and the last thing you ever want to do is fire it. Crappy sight that requires specific training to use properly and requires precise calibration. Each one costs over a thousand dollars to make

Russia: AK47 and variants- Rifle based off German and American weapons of Ww2. Refined over decades. Cheap, fairly accurate, and easy to maintain. Basic sight accurate to effective range. Can and often is built with hand tools.

Anybody else seeing the problem here?

Yeah, I see it clearly. And have seen it ever since the multi-gazillion-dollar "fly by wire" aircraft started coming out. (Or consumer automobiles with computerized engines, for that matter.) These ships and aircraft essentially bear big red targets on themselves, right at the computers, saying "Hit Me Here And Kill Me Dead".

And the technologies to strike at those computers has existed longer than the computers themselves, going back to Nikola Tesla's days.

Ironically, we need to re-include lower-tech weapons systems in our arsenal, ones that can operate under this sort of electronic counter measure (ECM) attack.

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

detroitmechworks's picture

@thanatokephaloides to roll back our small arms to at least korea.

The m14 was a decent weapon, and was a good starting point for a competitor to the AK47. Needed refinement, but so did the ak. Bring back browning action for our machine guns, and fuck the FN and Italian designs. 1911 and .30 Cal work great, are effective at engagement range and are cheap and reliable. Also, Completely buildable Under Adverse conditions, Which Every FUCKing War IS!!!
Sorry, long rant and discussionI used to have with Captain Romito, one of the finest officers I ever served with. He gave me a recommendation for my application to OCS, and had I remained in the army, I would like to think those admittedly fraternizing discussions would have helped guide my actions.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@detroitmechworks You mean that a bunch of fatass rich bastards who will never see war are driving our military production with their disgusting appetite for endless profit at any cost?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

thanatokephaloides's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

You mean that a bunch of fatass rich bastards who will never see war are driving our military production with their disgusting appetite for endless profit at any cost?

Dingdingdingdingding!! Give Can't Stop another Marijuana!

(I live in Colorado; I can say that!) Smile

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

@detroitmechworks

Well, the essential purpose of further enriching, at public expense, the MIC and those invested in it - as well those politicians the MIC invests in - is achieved, so what else really matters? It's not like the beneficiaries of this believe that they're likely to suffer for this, just some of the Disposables.

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

detroitmechworks's picture

@Steven D was completely going to get fucked in any scenario where the enemy was creative. We knew this over a decade ago.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002

We need to learn from the things that actually work.

If I may jump on a soapbox, imho war is to awful to be left to amateur wannabees who think a bunch of tech toys will replace the only thing that ever wins a war. That one thing is a large number of armed soldiers who are given a clear and strictly limited mission.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

@detroitmechworks then our way is the best way. Massively over-priced and overly complex systems ensure big profits. And the longer it goes on, the better.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

Alligator Ed's picture

@detroitmechworks

If I may jump on a soapbox, imho war is to awful to be left to amateur wannabees who think a bunch of tech toys will replace the only thing that ever wins a war. That one thing is a large number of armed soldiers who are given a clear and strictly limited mission.
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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@detroitmechworks If we had a military that was run correctly, there would be constant conflict between the military and the industrial sides of the military-industrial complex, since they actually have conflicting goals. Or, well, they would, if the military were being run correctly.

A well-run military would want a sufficient number of the weapons necessary to implement a series of strategies that they had thought out in response to different geopolitical scenarios they thought might arise. Figuring out what those strategies are, what weapons and tech is needed to implement them, and how much of the various weapons and tech we need would be the job of the military, and the ultimate decisions would be driven by their strategic expertise (within the limits of existing tech.)

Instead, we have an industrialist's desire for constantly increasing maximized profit in the driver's seat, and a government whose job it is to give such men what they want. And apparently most of the people in charge of the Pentagon never object (though if they did object, I probably wouldn't know it).

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

travelerxxx's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

The Pentagon personnel who approve and sign off on the massive cost overruns and faulty equipment know full well on which side their bread is buttered ... and by whom. After twenty years wearing a uniform, they all graduate to the payoff -- a cushy Sales Rep position with the very same DaddyWarBucks, Inc. grafters whose wallets they padded with taxpayer monies during the time they had an American flag sewed to their sleeve.

In the end, it's all about greed -- top to bottom ... but especially at the top.

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@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

Would there be any need for an actively fighting US military if the US PTB had never attacked/invaded/'destabilized'/terrorized/overthrown democratically elected governments in other people's countries for corporate fun and profit and the military were indeed properly run and used only where necessary?

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Ellen North I don't know, but I bet we'd have one just in case.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

Yup, and they could do pretty parades and play war-games without damaging/killing wild-life to be ready, just in case, and they could cost a fraction of the amount spent on things like infrastructure and universal health-care among a much healthier population.

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Steven D Falling budgets? What the hell are they talking about?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal If the military men who are using the budgets say the budgets are falling, while on the taxpayer and legislative end, the money being poured into the military is at a constant level best defined as "full force firehose," then I want to know where the hell the money is going.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

'Administrative costs'? 'Burdensome regulations; costs of'? 'Some clerk forgot to enter a few more trillion into the books again, just more admin error'? 'Damn, must have left my pockets open again, oh, well, done deal?'

Luckily, any amount of mysteriously missing public money can be made up for with more public austerity and a heavier milking hand!

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
https://caucus99percent.com/content/light-reading-6-trillion-unaccounted...

Light Reading: $6 Trillion Unaccounted for at DOD in 2015

... a $6 Trillion error, or slight-of-hand... Probably just a goof-up.

Dated last summer:

http://www.dodig.mil/pubs/documents/DODIG-2016-113.pdf
July 26, 2016

MEMORANDUM FOR UNDER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE (COMPTROLLER)/ CHIEF FINANCIAL OFFICER
DIRECTOR, DEFENSE FINANCE AND ACCOUNTING SERVICE AUDITOR GENERAL, DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY
SUBJECT: Army General Fund Adjustments Not Adequately Documented or Supported (Report No. DODIG-2016-113)

We are providing this report for review and comment. Army and Defense Finance and Accounting Service Indianapolis personnel did not adequately support $2.8 trillion in third quarter adjustments and $6.5 trillion in yearend adjustments made to Army General Fund data during FY 2015 financial statement compilation...

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detroitmechworks's picture

I read his letters. (3rd ACR had a big exhibit to the guy as he was a a former CO) The man had no feeling for anyone, delighted in "discipline", even to the point of crushing morale, and was hated by almost everyone he worked with.
I have much more respect for Rommel, whose book, while a bit dry and German, emphasized minimizing the effect of war on civilians, and tried at least to talk about proper treatment of the enemy as respectable foes.
Macho Generals get good people killed. Good generals win without fighting.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

@detroitmechworks
attached to both Patton and Omar Bradley at various times. He loved Bradley and hated Patton.(Bradley loved field kitchens - Patton thought k rations built character)

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On to Biden since 1973

earthling1's picture

why only 23 missiles out of 59 launched reached their target at Syrian air base?

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Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.

Steven D's picture

@earthling1 @earthling1 @earthling1 but another Russian system known as Krasuha:

The mobile Krasuha series of systems is arguably the most widely discussed in Russian media. Designed in the mid-1990s, the system entered production in 2011.49 According to Jane’s, Krasuha-4 is “designed to neutralize Low-Earth Orbit (LEO) spy satellites such as the U.S. Lacrosse/Onyx series, satellites, ground-based radars, airborne surveillance radars, and radar-guided ordinance.”50 The system is reportedly able to protect an object from radar detection at the distance of 150-300 kilometers as well as inflict electronic disruption to adversary's radar electronic warfare and communications system.51 The system, generally employed in coordination with air defense elements in order to increase their survivability, is in service with the Russian military and will also reportedly be deployed in the Arctic in the near future.52

The Krasuha-4’s deployment in October 2015 at Latakia airfield in Syria perhaps caused the most concern to U.S./NATO and Israeli military forces. Presumably, its deployment was necessary in order to be able to jam ISIL and rebel communication systems. However, deployed in close proximity to other militaries engaged in counter-ISIL operations, the system also had an ability to disrupt radar, communications, and signals intelligence systems. Russia and Israel created a mechanism to deconflict their operations in Syria, including in “the electromagnetic arenas” in the fall of 2015.53

It could also be based on this active missile defense system the Russians employ in Syria:

On paper, the S-400 system is designed to destroy aircraft, drones, and cruise and ballistic missiles up to 400 kilometers away; it is also equipped with a radar able to detect targets at a range of 600km. Since its installation in Syrian territory, the action of Western and Turkish warplanes in support of rebel forces has been limited.

The presence of S-400 platforms in the Syrian theater possibly influenced the US strategy of attack against the Assad regime. The USS Porter and USS Ross, two Arleigh Burke-class destroyers stationed in the eastern Mediterranean, bombarded the Shayrat airbase in central Syria, which the Syrian Air Force used to launch suspected chemical attacks that left dozens of civilians dead in rebel-held Khan Shaykhun.

Though the Pentagon informed the Russian military beforehand of the impending operation, the US military command decided to attack from a safe distance. Tomahawk missiles have a range of 1,600km and their use in place of strike aircraft was probably intended to minimize potential losses caused by the very fast and precise S-400 surface-to-air missiles.

This could mean that the Pentagon acknowledges the effectiveness of the S-400 against warplanes and the electronic jamming capabilities of the US EA-18G Growler jets, which can weaken the operability of the Russian air shield in Syria but not neutralize it completely.

Thus the S-400’s deterrent function against aircraft sorties appears to be confirmed by the military option chosen by the United States to punish Assad. Chinese and Indian generals will be delighted with this outcome, which proves they have been right to bet on the S-400 system for their respective air defenses.

In particular, Delhi can reasonably be confident it will manage to undercut Beijing’s airborne capacities so as to gain aerial strategic parity in the Himalayan region, where the two countries have long-standing border disputes.

S-400’s vulnerability to swarm missile attacks

On the other hand, the barrage of Tomahawks demonstrated the Pentagon’s capacity to perforate the Russian defenses in Syria, possibly showing the vulnerability of the S-400 to low-flying missiles with small radar cross-sections.

The S-400 radar probably detected the Tomahawk swarm but the firing system apparently did not attempt to hit any missiles. It is now an open question whether Moscow’s military command in Syria deliberately opted not to engage the US missiles once informed of the imminent attack or, in contrast, was unable to react.

The Russian camp obviously leans toward the first scenario. In Moscow’s view, the interception of US Tomahawks by the S-400 system would have provoked a dangerous escalation. The fact that, after the US strike, Moscow announced its intention to strengthen the Syrian air defenses, however, is a sign that the Russian defense shield in war-torn Syria needs some improvements.

That said, all types of air defense systems, including the S-400, are still in large part untested as to whether they can resist multiple missile attacks. India and China should take that into account while focusing on the reinforcement of their own air and missile defenses. In this sense, the S-400’s mixed performance in Syria against the US Tomahawks should at least raise some doubt in Delhi and Beijing over the capabilities of this Russian arms system.

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"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott

Alligator Ed's picture

@Steven D While Ronnie Ray Gun talked about Star Wars, the Russians were actually building something vastly cheaper and more practical. Russians have been parsimonious in their military expenditures due to circumstances. Economically they have not fully recovered from WW2,even though catching up. This enforced frugality has ramped up the ingenuity necessitated. Our MIC often acts as if all problems can be solved by throwing money at them. A one billion dollar destroyer! Think of it. Think what this amount could do if redirected towards strengthening infrastructure, social programs, healthcare, etc.

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@Steven D

At the time, I'd wondered if the Russians had let some missiles through so that Baby could feel that his tantrum had had some effect, and then shorted out the rest of the missiles.

Why should they advertise their capabilities to these exceptional idiots over something relatively minor? I've a feeling that they've likely much more in reserve, only to be used as necessary... speaking as One Who Knows Nothing But Speculates a Lot, of course, lol.

The US PTB are accustomed to bullying the poor and vulnerable, those much smaller than themselves; they've been permitted to get away with ever-more-blatant and expanding theft and murder which is neither acceptable nor survivable and their citizens cannot stop them - somebody must.

Are TPTB bright enough to draw in their horns and abandon the notion of global conquest/annihilation, when they aren't bright enough to quit producing acid rain for extra corporate/billionaire profits?

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Alligator Ed's picture

@Ellen North paragraph 1: Yes, Vladimir let the Orangutang have his largely ineffective missile shoot, these preserving his ass and perhaps even later detente.

Paragraph 2: Advertising is most effective when reaching a "targeted" audience. The target will be US and our power grid. Putin doesn't bluster or play games. He is in it to win it. He's got the brains and the guts--two things which NONE of our politicians possess, except maybe Tulsi.

Paragraph 3: The PTB will be unable to restrain the rabble (us 99ers) once US planes fall from the sky as surely as the stock market will fall.

Paragraph 4: Greed is a cancer. It is avaricious narcissism. The only cure is forced residence in a cave, not a posh bunker. Lucrectomy will also ameliorate this cancer, but only temporarily.

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@earthling1
Within 1, what is the maximum number of "SCUD" missiles that any serious analyst believes might have been destroyed by PATRIOT missiles during the first Gulf War?

Answer: 1

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

earthling1's picture

@UntimelyRippd
than big grenades on the end of a rocket.
But the Patriots still failed miserably. Some have posited the Tomahawks were old and aged out, like 20 year old bottle rockets found in a garage drawer.
Most would work, some were bound to be duds. In fact, iirc, one did fail on launch. There was supposed to be 60 launched.

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Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.

CB's picture

@earthling1
air force. They got rid of the 'hanger queens'.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@earthling1 Maybe. Or it could be b/c Trump et al weren't, um, fully committed.

Remember that the Trump administration let Assad et al know long enough before they fired at them that Assad's people were able to evacuate out of there.

Trump is an asshole, but this isn't the war he wants. He doesn't want to quarrel with Russia over their satellites in the Middle East. He's not interested in that.

He's interested in some other things that freak me the fuck out, but not that.

I still think he only launched that attack to shut the Democrats and their neocon Bush-era warhawk friends the fuck up. (To say nothing of the CIA.)

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Alligator Ed's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal We needed to "freshen" the inventory. You know that Tomahawks get spoiled like tomatoes when unused for too long. Maybe we should call them "Tomatohawks".

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@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

I still think he only launched that attack to shut the Democrats and their neocon Bush-era warhawk friends the fuck up. (To say nothing of the CIA.)

I think Mattis and Trump want to destroy ISIS and to assist the SDF in doing so. I think this is what the American military who are in agreement with Michael Flynn also want, not to remove Assad, not to go to war with Iran, and, as far-fetched as it may sound to our neo-nut Media, not to go to war with Russia.

It's the U.S. Neocons, whose allegiance is with Saudi Arabia, who want full spectrum dominance, the destruction of democracy worldwide, and nuclear war. These traitors are just totally and criminally insane.

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Creosote.'s picture

@earthling1
with maps, or at least one map, showing how the flight paths of the projectiles were altered -- and here is the link: http://thesaker.is/a-multi-level-analysis-of-the-us-cruise-missile-attac...
See the diagram toward the front of the article.

Then, somewhere in the text, in a box quote, this bit of actuality appeared:

The Russians expressed their total disgust and outrage at this attack and openly began saying that the Americans were “недоговороспособны”. What that word means is literally “not-agreement-capable” or unable to make and then abide by an agreement.

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@Creosote.

Thanks for the fascinating link and what sounds to me like sense!

Luckily, I was also eventually led to something on the same site which enabled to clean the taste of PTB-triggered vomit out of my mouth with something that made me go holy fuck! and listen to the following twice running:

http://thesaker.is/%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D0%BD%D0%B5-%D0...

Россия не Европа (Russia is not Europe) – an example through Music
125336 ViewsApril 05, 2015

...What I propose to do next is to share with you a song which Pelageia has discovered somewhere in the “deep Russia” and which she superbly interprets. I will be honest with you, this exercise will only work for those who have a “musical sensitivity” who are used to feel the deep emotions music convey far beyond the words of a song. If you have a musical ear, you will miss nothing if you do not understand Russian, but if you are a Russian native but don’t have a musical ear, you will never really “get” what this song conveys.

This is a rich and complex song, which conveys are typically Russian range of emotions, but what I hope to get across here is what I believe is one of the single most important truths about Russia and yet one of the most ignored ones: Russia is not Europe. The real, “deep”, Russia (not the one of Tolstoy or Stravinsky) has a completely different ethos, shaped by the Russian immense steppes and forests, by the Orthodox phronema and by numerous wars which threatened the very existence of the Russian nation. If you can, I hope that you will hear the “voice” of this “deep Russia” in this song: ...

(embedded there, but I wanted to hang onto it so here's the URL on Youtube as well.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngD1LxdvXds

Пелагея. Чёрный ворон - НЕОЖИДАННО и ПРЕКРАСНО!

And I think I'm just going to play it again before diving back into Green Day - it's lucky that we can still take a break from the mind-boggling lunacy being inflicted on the world by pathologically greedy and power-hungry ignorami...

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

has put the USA in a very weak geostrategic position. Bush's epic blunder of invading Iraq set the stage for a long downhill roll. Obama's Administration failed to recognize the magnitude of that disaster, or to foresee its almost inevitable consequences. Instead, they continued following the neocon program by underwriting a Ukrainian coup, forcing the disintegration of Libya, and supporting the Syrian jihadis' attempt to destroy Assad's government... all the while continuing to pour billions of dollars into the hopeless quagmire of Afghanistan... Then to top it all off, Obama decides to make a full-frontal assault on Russia herself -- a decision which can only be regarded as be the height of folly.

None of this mindless belligerence has done anything to strengthen America's global standing -- neither militarily, nor economically, and nor politically. All of it has been stupidly counter-productive, and none of it has served America's self-interest. Over the past 17 years, these policies have created almost nothing of value, but they have undeniably destroyed much.

They have also bequeathed to us, in the person of Donald Trump, a functionally illiterate President with a personality disorder, whose only virtue seems to be that the US Deep State, as well as neoliberals of every description, are all adamantly opposed whatever he might want to do. It's a recipe for chaos and dysfunction, no matter how you look at it.

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native

@native extremely expensive weapons systems that do not hit 100% of their targets, are not nearly as accurate as portrayed, and keep on giving our wealthy owners even more wealth with which to stymie our every move toward a more just society. All for profit, and all paid by the lowly US taxpayer, who is held in open contempt by all who "govern" over us. They only want that tax dollar and your vote, then you can pound sand and STFU.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

k9disc's picture

Seems to me that we're only interested in Offense -- in projecting force and deposing governments and that defending America is not really on the strategic and tactical radar. "A good offense is the best defense."

I mean, we keep moving weapons and warriors around the world, turning off the safety and opening fire.

While the Russians are busy setting up National Defense and protecting from invasion, we're creating a bunch of offensive powerhouses, but seem to be missing the boat on Defense.

Interesting tech result of completely different geopolitical strategies.

Offense wins games, Defense wins championships.

@lizzyh7

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“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@k9disc Russia is continuing to do (basically) what they've always done. Even their most offensive (heh) offense, taking over the Eastern Bloc, was for the purposes of, well, blocking the route to Russia.

I have no idea how they habitually deal with China, but in re: Europe, they are mostly defensive-minded and their empire reflects that.

The only thing I can think of that diverges from that attitude is their dealings with Cuba. But we kind of dropped that one right in their lap, didn't we?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@k9disc
provide most of the defense we really need, unless we're talking about ICBMs.

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native

k9disc's picture

lacking in civil defense.

I think the responses to 911, Katrina, BP Gusher in the Gulf, and a few other National Disasters have proven that the President doesn't have any real live top-down authority. It's not like he or she can just make a call and have the civilian government spring into action.

It takes the coordination of tens or hundreds of corporate middle managers, or personal phone calls and favors delivered by the President or some other run of the mill favor currying public official.

So while we do have the natural defenses of amazing national resources, and a large, fairly organized population and situational cultural cohesion for defending ourselves, our infrastructure and civic defense system is gutted -- hollowed out long ago when the Era of Big Government was over.

Now we've got Drumpf calling for the "corporatization" of national Air Traffic Control, and privatization of roads, water, bridges, and internet. Not looking good for protecting our People from all enemies foreign and domestic.
@native

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“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

@k9disc
aircraft carriers and billion-dollar destroyers for these kinds of projects.

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native

k9disc's picture

A bunch of privatization schemes and funding schemes for increased private industry control over public infrastructure -- vital public infrastructure. And the funds are all small dollar on the budget sheet, but large dollars on the profit books and much freedom to roam in the halls of corporate power.

@native

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“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

@k9disc
to feed on the rest of us. Still, I don't think anyone expected anything else from him.

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native

Creosote.'s picture

@k9disc
as "offensive penthouses" at a fast glance . . .

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Alligator Ed's picture

@Creosote.

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@lizzyh7
the US electorate seems either incapable or unwilling to force its representatives to change course. People seem unaware that our much-vaunted Empire is crumbling at its base. It's like a skyscraper undergoing a process of poorly-controlled demolition: The lower floors are imploding, while the top floors remain, however briefly, intact. And they're having a grand old party up there. The Trumps, the Obamas, Bill Gates, Bezos, Branson... the lot of them... all guzzling champagne like there's no tomorrow, signing checks and collecting royalties and then being whisked off in private jets to who-knows-where.

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native

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@native People know, at least in the sense that they know the Empire that benefitted them is crumbling.

I'm not sure they care much whether or not our elites continue to prosper.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

lotlizard's picture

@native  
of his family losing his brother to alcoholism.

The Trumps, the Obamas, Bill Gates, Bezos, Branson... the lot of them... all guzzling champagne like there's no tomorrow

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@lizzyh7 Well, this is another problem.

When your actual motive is profit at any cost, you're not necessarily going to be selling a lot of good weapons, or a lot of weapons that fit into a sound military strategy. You just want them to be numerous and expensive.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Alligator Ed's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal Expensive, mainly for show and outmoded technologically.

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earthling1's picture

@lizzyh7 @lizzyh7
revealed that Putin nationalized over a hundred private Russian defense contractors into one organization, KRET, iirc. This focused on EW systems and cut out the bidding crap and corruption and gave the Russian military more bang for their buck.
Nothing like the threat of a posting in Siberia to help keep efficiency at maximum.

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Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.

CB's picture

@earthling1
for pennies on the dollar. At the fall of the Soviet Union there were 4,000 defense related facilities. Most of them were asset stripped or converted to other purposes (one was converted to cigarette manufacturing another sold stripped missiles to theme parks). Putin recognized the importance of them in order to rebuild the military strength of the country so he bought them back and nationalized them.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@native I hate to give him credit for anything--but it is true that he opposed their policy toward Russia before they opposed him. He'd rather make an oil deal with Russia and poison the planet some more than blow us all to smithereens in a nuclear war.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
It was about the only thing he said that made any sense, but it made a hell of a lot of sense. Unfortunately he seems to have folded like a wet paper towel, as soon as he got any pushback from the MIC. A man of firm principle he is not.

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native

@native
people around him? I mean, he's not operating alone, is he? This crazy series of events in which he changes position like a weather vane blown backward, to and fro, from moment to moment, is disturbing to everyone, including the mainstream Media as well as those who share our perspective.

I focus on General Michael Flynn because I think of him as a whistleblower, and I believe if he had stayed on as National Security Advisor, our policy in Syria would have clarified and would have worked along with Russia to end ISIS and the war. But the deep state dispatched with him in no time. I think that's what Trump's current advisors are aware of and have to deal with, that all of them are vulnerable to one or another crazy media campaign that can be launched against them, and so, maybe, they try to stay one step ahead of the war machine while trying to change course at the same time.

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Alligator Ed's picture

@Linda Wood My theory is that now the Russia-Trump theory is as dead as CNN, Trump will turn to offense. Many Democratic heads will roll, metaphorically. One big shot after another will do a perp walk. If the new FBI director is as determined as Sessions, have no doubt that there will be a boom in Club Fed housing demand.

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@Alligator Ed
as my Grandma used to say, a caution. You and I may both be dreaming. Trump's son-in-law being a family friend of Bibi and THEREFORE a key foreign policy advisor is scary enough on its own to discredit what I'm saying, but I have to believe there are some rational people in our government. Or is the Council on Foreign Relations so worshiped as to be a religious order when it comes to advice?

I don't know. I think your reading of this makes more sense. The Council and their Neocon hitmen are naturally afraid of losing their power. They've killed a lot of people over the last 60 years. If they lose the black hole of defense spending that underwrites their wealth and their power, someone, not you, maybe, and not me, but someone is going to get these people. Fear, more than greed really, is what runs them.

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@Linda Wood
indeed, operating virtually alone. That he trusts none of his advisors implicitly and believes, in the face of all evidence to the contrary, that he knows more than any of them. Just this week for example, he directly contradicted and contravened both Tillerson and Mattis, in the matter of the Saudi/Qatar riff -- without even informing them that he was doing so. This created a huge snafu involving both Turkey and Iran, of which The Donald remained blissfully unaware.

Trump's most trusted advisors at the moment appear to be his own daughter and son in law. He threw 100 Tomahawk missiles at Syria because Ivanka watched some idiotic "White Helmets" propaganda video on CNN. None of his foreign policy directives can be coordinated in any systematic way, because he simply refuses to listen to anyone. Or, he'll listen to somebody for a month, and then go off on his own, contradicting everything he said previously, and firing the very people he only recently hired. He is an erratic, untrustworthy, impulsive, unpredictable, and extremely ill-informed President.

Trump does seem to be following some sort of a personal guiding star, but so far it has only led him from one jumbled mess into another. It's possible that he might finally rescue DC's foreign policy establishment by first utterly wrecking the place.

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native

Alligator Ed's picture

@native Can Ivanka really be so stupid as to credit anything broadcast by CNN? I thought she was smarter than that. Maybe not? Somebody send her a pussy hat!

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@Alligator Ed
It's not that I think Ivanka is stupid, because I don't believe that she is. Not at all. But she feeds her mind on the same msm bullcrap that the Donald feeds his mind on. Keep in mind that the Donald is functionally illiterate. His entire world view, his basic ethos, is formed almost exclusively by what he is able to garner from watching network teevee. He probably avails himself of certain alt-right Youtube channels, but that's about it.

We are all, more or less, the product of our parentage and associated environmental factors. The Trump family is what it is, and as such it imposes certain conceptual limits upon its members. Individually, I'd say that Ivanka is probably the most free-thinking of them all. Too bad she had to go and marry a Zionist, but even that shows a certain willingness to engage in unconventional thinking.

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native

@native
a clear thinking and eloquent writer, native, I just want to thank you repeatedly. Peace.

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@native

...It's possible that he might finally rescue DC's foreign policy establishment by first utterly wrecking the place.

From your lips to FSM's cauliflower side-dish ears! Ramen!

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@native Mattis was not his first choice.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

CB's picture

@native

Donald Trump, a functionally illiterate President with a personality disorder

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k9disc's picture

@native

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“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

Alligator Ed's picture

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is this how a freighter collided with the uss fitzgerald?
would they tell us if it was?
how could the crew not see a cargo ship approaching?

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bygorry

Alligator Ed's picture

@bygorry Defeat in the South China Sea.

The event of June 17, 2017 is the military version of the Seth Rich murder. We know the players, but the plays have yet to be unfolded.

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@Alligator Ed
Or perhaps as a little reminder?

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