To My Friends on the Left: Hillary Clinton Is Not the Enemy
Jeffrey Isaacs published a letter today in The Nation. I would quibble with a few things in it, for example, it is addressed to a successful professional audience and is somewhat oblivious to the travails of those who are not. Hillary’s foreign policy is certainly “within a bipartisan mainstream” as Issacs says. Yet this should only be taken as an indictment of this “bipartisan mainstream”.
But Isaacs’ main argument is sound. The various career-furthering strategem Hillary is criticized for employing have been used by most presidential candidates before her as well. All this criticism is meant to divert your attention from the fact that most of us have few views in common with the groping and bullying Trump.
If you are approaching Clinton from the left, and haven’t already, you should read this: Noam Chomsky's 8-Point Rationale for Voting for the Lesser Evil Presidential Candidate
In particular:
The broader lesson to be drawn is not to shy away from confronting the dominance of the political system under the management of the two major parties. Rather, challenges to it need to be issued with a full awareness of their possible consequences. This includes the recognition that far right victories not only impose terrible suffering on the most vulnerable segments of society but also function as a powerful weapon in the hands of the establishment center, which, now in opposition can posture as the “reasonable” alternative. A Trump presidency, should it materialize, will undermine the burgeoning movement centered around the Sanders campaign, particularly if it is perceived as having minimized the dangers posed by the far right.
If, for some reason, the Weiner laptop saga has made any difference to your views, do read Isaacs as well:
To My Friends on the Left: Hillary Clinton Is Not the Enemy.
She is being attacked by the right wing because the right wing hates her. And the right wing hates her because she is a liberal and a feminist and a woman and because she supports the things that most anger the right wing: gender equality, reproductive freedom, equality for gays and lesbians, gun control, racial equality, and civil rights.
These things that she supports are the things that we support. The things she supports have their limits. She has her limits. But she is not evil, and she is not an enemy.
In the next ten days leading up to Election Day, Clinton will be subjected to a list-ditch barrage of attacks from the right. She does not “deserve” these attacks. And while the attackers target her, what they attack is much of what is valuable to you and to me. To us.
Let us not exult in her travails. They are undeserved. And such exultation does no good in any case.
Let us defeat a Republican neofascist by electing a Democratic neoliberal feminist.
Comments
Why her?
Why don't you want to put the two you say are at fault (Obama/Holder) in jail?
@subirgrewal
Why her? I wrote a whole essay about it, please read it.
"Extremely Careless" Hillary, the woman HERSELF, is a DANGEROUS THREAT to our National Security --> the Safety of All Americans. Please Share.
And lest we forget, she is running as Obama's third term. If you are asking for us to put Obama/Holder in jail ... the same logic applies to her.
And I do want to put Obama in jail ... not only was he HE PERFECTLY COOL WITH HILLARY'S STUPID, STUPID RISK TO NATIONAL SECURITY, not to mention obvious attempts to evade FOIA ("Most Transparent Government Ever"), I believe that he was part of the scheme to bias the FBI and Justice Department to let her go scot free. We are fucking supposed to be a nation of laws ... Obama and his cronies made a TOTAL MOCKERY OF JUSTICE in this country. I happened to write a different essay to explain exactly that, please read that one too:
One Law for Thee, and Another for Me - Comey actually said it out loud: if Clinton had been someone else, his decision would likely have been different
~OaWN
Okay, so Hillary, Obama, Holder.
I'm assuming much of the Bush White House should be in prison as well (since they had a parallel e-mail system going). The Bill Clinton administration had a bunch of faults, HW Bush's CIA cronies started a number of covert wars, Reagan's crew did the same. How far back do we need to go to find an administration where we don't need to imprison the president and most of the cabinet?
@subirgrewal
I think that the more
I think that the more appropriate question is not how far back do we have to go but rather when are we going to finally stand up and put a stop to a government that no longer represents the interests of the majority of its citizens. We can make a choice right here and now to stop electing disingenuous politicians. Wikileaks has made it very clear that Hillary is hardly a liberal at heart and she will certainly help pass a neoliberal agenda once elected. Why do we have to accept that?
Clearly you haven't read my essay, you are just making more of
your own points instead of listening or responding to mine, which might be fun for you but not so much for me.
And it also proves my point, you are not here to try to listen at all.
~OaWN
I did read your essay
Frankly, I don't see much in it that can't also be said about most powerful people. Obama is far more personally circumspect than most others, others born into money haven't had to sully themselves by peddling favors for money.
I've also seen more than one politician brought down by someone strongman claiming they're going to clean it up, only to see it turn into a literal bloodbath.
@subirgrewal
I'm sorry, but what you say is not true, and frankly you
seem to be highly dismissive and just wanting to "get this thing over with".
No other politician has been so committed to evading the Freedom of Information Act that they insisted on using a home-brew system in their basement for their emails, which they did their best to keep secret and off-the-grid.
No other high-level executive has been so ARROGANT that they SKIP REQUIRED TRAINING to be Sec. of State, and thus not only run the risk of handling sensitive information inappropriately - SHE ACTUALLY DID HANDLE IT INAPPROPRIATELY. So all of the NATIONAL SECRETS that were stored on that server are nowt in the hands of our enemies. She left the door to the house open, the house has clearly been robbed, and all she has to do is say "I made a mistake" and you will let her get away with that? Is that true? If so, I fucking cannot believe it. PEOPLE HAVE DIED to get the secrets she had, and she basically just spit on their graves. That is fucking unacceptable behavior, the act of a highly callous person who simply does not value the lives of ordinary Americans, the 99%.
No other high-level executive were excused for their criminal behavior by a creative reading of the law by the head of the FBI, while at the same time he announced that if anybody else did the SAME THING, they would be punished. Are you seriously ok living in a world where the only people who are subject to the law are the "little people".
No other high-level politician has been involved with multiple incidents of Pay-for-Play. The Clintons will make $$$ if America goes to war, and so she will take us to war. If what I am saying is true, would you honestly feel good about that?
You are basically saying "everybody does it", just like all the folks on the right always do. Which is 1) not true, and 2) simply a deflection to get people to stop looking at the dirt.
I'm spending too much time here, and it's a waste, I think I'm going to need to stop.
~OaWN
Remember how they denied everything
and called it nonsense and CT, until Wikileaks and others proved us right?
Even now they are denying what is in those e-mails, trying to claim that mysterious Russian editors planted those e-mails in their accounts, just to make them look bad. We don't know what's on the Weiner-drive yet, but presumably the sneaky Russians put them there too (stuxworm and thumbdrive?).
The audacity of the lies would be hilarious if it wasn't so pitiful.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
The Bush white house had a parallel network set up
in the White House to avoid FOIA, it was at gwb43.com https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_email_controversy
@subirgrewal
You don't find that troubling?
What is your argument? That we should be fine with corruption and a government that works against the governed, because it's common practice?
How about not, orange-coat.
It's all about the repetition
of talking points, and gauging for any changes in the anti-Hillary electorate. Or to be The Bearer of The Words That Bring The Wayward Dems Home to The Big Tent.
In short:
True story! Just using everyone else's words as endless springboards to even more endless bullshit.
JFK
I was thinking Carter. eom
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I thought about Carter, too,
but JFK was the last president who wanted to put our currency back on a standard--which would have limited the ability of the Fed (Rothschilds) to manipulate it.
Yes—still have one of JFK’s $5 red-seal United States Notes. n/t
Rothschilds aren't the only wheeler-dealers
They've just been at it longest and have the most experience (apparently including learning that there are times when they have to keep their noses clean, or at least appear to have them clean).
Other parties may or may not include the Gnomes of Zurich, the Illuminati, and a rotating coterie of megacorporations - especially the megacorporations.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Wait, is this honest to goodness ZOG conspiracy here?
Do people understand both the history of these crazy allegations about "Rothschilds" and how deflation operates in a hard money economy? Have you read about William Jennings Bryant, do you know why Bretton Woods collapsed?
@subirgrewal
It's Bryan, not Bryant
William Jennings Bryan was a Populist politician.
William Cullen Bryant was a popular poet.
The Rothschilds have attracted conspiracy theories for 300 years - most of them based on anti-Semitism.
I'm not too up on economics, but even I know that basing your currency on a finite resource is just asking for all kinds of trouble.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
You need to take that up with Obama. WE wanted them
investigated and punished. Obama was the one who gave them a walk.
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks
Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa
The Clintons cannot be separated.
Who goes into the bank and who waits in the getaway car is interchangeable and depends on circumstances. Obama lied his way into office and, within 20minutes of winning, turned the government over to GS. Obama got my last two lesser of evil, sucker votes.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
GS?
There's an acronym I'm not sure of.
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Goldman Sachs. n/t
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Ah! Of course!
Too much reading about Over There. All I could think was "Great Satan".
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Agree. I was going to
vote Green and vote Jill, but I will vote Trump instead. HRC's choices for SCOTUS likely would be wishy washy "moderates" anyway. Vote for the Trumpster and sink her ship.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
Sadly, TPTB
will only install another puppet, should Hillary fail. She's the frontman, and she's in on the deal.
Enemy #1 isn't Hillary, it's the 1% that controls Hillary.
They are becoming more brazen in their wish to express their superiority over the 99%. We need faces. We need to know who these people are. Bezos is barely in the game. The real power knows well they must remain concealed.
Is bombing (innocent) women feminist?
I didn't think so. She ain't no feminist to me.
Too late!
I am already exulting in her travails which were very much deserved.
She has said she is open to a ban on late term abortions, and wants to increase the age to receive Social Security Benefits, and would also be open to privatization of Social Security.
Some feminist.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
No single payer healthcare coverage or community college but
is definitely open to more military action.
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks
Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa
Not only that...
Not only that, but it is an actual fact that Trump supported abortion rights before he was against them, which suggests that his now 'official position' could very well revert back to his old thinking when it comes to the next opening on the Supreme Court.
It is definitely not an issue that is a slam dunk for Clinton...
James Kroeger
One of the few reasons I'm considering voting for Trump:
He opposes the TPP, which i view as the end of any pretense of democracy - it is the final give to the corporatists, and they will then own us all. We know Hillary is in on the deal.
In the past, Trump has expressed not only liberal, but progressive views on social issues.
Trump knows how to rally a crowd. That is how he won the primary (in addition to the MSM's nomination). But he doesn't believe all that racist crap. And in fact, he was one of the first moguls to hire women into high level positions and expect them to deliver.
Donnie, pull all those women to the forefront in the next few days and let them testify to how he gave you opportunity.
If you didn't, and you screwed them over? Then you have screwed all of us over.
I don't trust Trump any more that I trust Hillary. But the bottom line is that his criminal network is less developed than hers. She has demonstrated no regard at all for human life, foreign or domestic. He has not demonstrated anything, he has just been full of crowd pleasing words.
The fact Donald is aware of the criminal and vote manipulating habits of the Clinton cartel is telling.
Will he even be an ounce better than Clinton? Actually, I think he will be. He might be a narcissist, but he is not a sociopath.
Nice try
but no, Clinton is not like the other politicians who have used the system to their advantage - she helped create the system, and at this point she is the system on steroids. And that system is destroying lives across the globe at an astounding rate.
"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott
This system has been around for decades, too many to count.
Look at LBJ's history of corruption and war for instance. So I can't take you seriously when you say she created the system. LBJ neutered Humphrey. Humphrey for crying out loud.
@subirgrewal
Uh, yeah OK
but while you argue semantics, Steven D is correct here - she HELPED create it. Then she and her husband put it on steroids to make it even slicker, at least for our ConservaDems. I don't know how you expect to be taken seriously by saying once again, well, she didn't create it but its OK for her to use it? Its OK that she's really a Repuke in "liberal" clothing? It's OK that she stole a primary and cheated her way to a nomination? It's OK that she and her husband may very well have set up the loon you're so scared of to run? And at the end of the day, all will be good because she'll protect abortion rights, she won't deport any more brown people than Obama has, and she'll make damned sure women get equal pay with men, but wages will need to go down so we can compete with global labor? How about that TPP? That OK with you?
No she didn't create this shitty ass mess on her own, she has had a lot of help doing it. And Repukes coming out in droves to vote for her should tell you all you need to know.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Arguing semantics is the whole idea
that way, you stay in the weeds, endlessly arguing, while you're continuously indoctrinated by their repetitive bullshit.
I despise this kind of nonsense. It's all about the glory, the "getting away with" bullshit and the one-stop trial balloon shop, all in one big happy troll. One day, really soon, let's all learn to ignore this particularly obnoxious hackery, so it goes back into it's echo chamber and stays there, and spares our eyeballs of all this arrogant fuckishness.
Look if you want the New Deal Democrats back in
ascendance, I'm with you all the way.
I don't think Bill Clinton set up Trump to run. I've lived in NYC for half my life, and this fellow has always wanted exactly this chance.
I don't think she stole the Democratic primary. She won it with a sufficient margin to override my concerns. We always knew it would be an uphill battle, and we knew she was the establishment candidate, with deep links to many in the Democratic party who would support her. But that is how you build support for any sort of successful political run. There is something for us to learn from that. We have to do the difficult organizational work to seed supporters up and down the Democratic party if we seek to win. We already have a lot of support, we have to continue to grow it. I don't begrudge the Clintons for being good at doing that. I don't like some of the corporate largesse they've doled around to build that support, but that's part of the reason campaign finance reform is so important.
TPP isn't the biggest issue on the list for me, but I do believe in fair trade and labor rights, so it is a concern. It's clearly being used as a carrot to further our pivot to Asia and encircle China in some ways. We can certainly have a discussion about whether those ends justify all the various compromises in the bill.
The republicans voting for her, are clearly attracted to some of her conservative leanings. But they are equally turned off by Trump's misogyny, bullying and racism.
@subirgrewal
Your Concern Is Noted n/t
I don't like...
let me rephrase that. I DESPISE "some of the corporate largesse they have doled around".
You sound like someone who has "theirs" with some conscience to help a few other get "theirs".
Well, you didn't sell your nasty and selfish shit to me.
You just go your way and fight against the person you are supporting, because brown skin, and I will fight against them for putting you in that situation in the first place.
Honest to God, I voted my heart for you.
For you and yours.
Go Stein.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Agree that we need New Deal Democrats, if the Dem party
must survive at all.
But of course she stole the Democratic primary. If we didn't know it before, we have since the DNC leaks. Here's a recent article, More Evidence Was Just Leaked Showing DNC Rigged Primary Against Bernie. You're swimming upstream on that issue. Or do you have a rational explanation for the huge discrepancies between the Dem polls and the Dem votes, and only on the Dem side, and only where there were no paper trails? That seems to have disappeared from the media, but never resolved that I ever saw.
Good for her, for attracting conservatives to vote for her. That leaves the left free to vote for Jill Stein with a clear conscience.
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My god; you are echoing all the Democratic party
Third Way talking points used to brainwash weak-minded voters who still rely on mainstream media propaganda, written, edited, and approved by the Clinton campaign and John Podesta. Please go away - you are annoying, like a buzzing fly.
They didn't even count CA - how the fuck do you know
how much she won or lost it by???? You have no evidence that the Clintons and the DNC didn't cook the election. We have closed polls,, flipped and lost registrations, testimonials of people at the cauci (SP) , WikiLeaks, evidence of debate cheating, media collaboration blacking out and blasting our candidate - how are you measuring all of that?????
Sabir - you are a good guy. Everyone respects you, but you are totally nuts on this issue. The Clintons, Obama, and the Democrats have pissed all over democracy, the constitution, equal opportunity, the law, planet, and human rights. I can't even begin to tally the direct and indirect # of deaths attributable to their bombs and corruption globally and in the US. This not a party I can respect or support, and I don't care if their suck is equal to, historic, or greater/less than the other party. I am done with corrupt government and corrupt politicians. Anything I can do metaphorically blow up this corrupt structure is what I intend to do. These corporate whores (sorry for the term but it works) calling themselves Democrats is as bad as DeadState calling itself progressive.
When the election is over, come on back Sabir and join a group of people who can look reality in the eye and call it what it is. The DNC and Clintons don't give us a dollar. We are not bought and paid for. We are non-partisan, and we don't demand fealty to the hand that feeds us because we are independent. Shame on Kos and the rest of the professional left for pimping the Clintons and WS wing of the Democratic Party. Just can't stay out of that veal pen.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
I live in NY State.
There's No Fucking Way she won NY by 16. Upstate was even. Sure, she won The City, but NOT by 16. Bernie won the Primary. DWS and her DNC stole it.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
You aren't with us
You are actively fighting against us, and supporting those who stand against everything that the left stands for.
are you kidding?
Your defense against the observation of Hillary (and Bill's) well documented culpability for turning the Democratic Party strongly to the right is to say "everybody does it"?? Way to blow all actual history away with a false equivalence.
You should get out more, read a little more widely, maybe learn some history. Maybe you have read Michelle Alexander over the past year? Or Corey Robin? Or Cornell West? Or Donna Murch?
Do substantive arguments backed by evidence strike you as gauche?? Or perhaps you prefer to ignore the carefully constructed arguments and jump straight to belittling, as the 'community' at DKos routinely does (including in their 'defense' of you in the mirror of this diary)?
After Bernie Sanders passed her the torch HRC *could* have walked away with the respect and allegiance of most of the crowd here and elsewhere, but she *chose* not to do so. Instead, she prefers to thumb her nose at the just claims of the millions at every chance she gets - in order to keep a cozy relationship with the Rich and Powerful whose attentions she and her Foundation have coddled for a decade. Really, just to take the latest example - HRC sez Standing Rock water protectors should have a right to protest as long as they don't interfere with the DAPL workers' "right to work". Are you really telling me that you don't SEE those words for what they very evidently are?
Wake up, subir. HRC is a known and proven danger to the people and to the planet -- NOT because she is a loose cannon like Trump who might just do anything, but because she is a willing and capable tool of a reckless establishment that does not give a flying fuck about you or me or anyone else making less than $250,000 per year.
Very well said, Solublefish.
Ditto, X2
~OaWN
LBJ wasn't a neoliberal.
LBJ gave us Medicare. Clinton will in all likelihood try to turn it into Obamacare while making Social Security into a welfare program (which the Republicans will soon abolish thereafter).
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
FUCK THAT SHIT, Subir!
Her is the very DEFINITION of the enemy!
And I got no fucks to give about past presidents precedence Bullshit! That's exactly the excuse Comey gave for NOT recommending charges be brought!
I respect you, I enjoy your writing(even when I disagree), but lote voting is still voting FOR evil.
BULLSHIT! ! !
I would honestly be equally uncomfortable with the orange pukestain, but I Don't see him wanting to start a war with Russia.
I'll stop here.
peace
Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .
Explain Bldg #7. . . still waiting. . .
If you’ve ever wondered whether you would have complied in 1930’s Germany,
Now you know. . .
sign at protest march
... at this point, I regard The Donald
as a completely unknown quantity -- NO TELLING what he would do were he to attain the Oval Office. I believe that is exactly why The Plutocracy all is lining up in an attempt to ensure his defeat (they don't know what he would do either; and they might not like it).
(BTW, The Plutocracy in this ol' Land of Brave, Home of Free consists of representatives of about 400 families -- and they all know each other, belong to the same clubs, intermarry, vaca on The Vineyard together, golf together, etc. So much for "democracy" --)
OTOH, based on a track record of approximately 40 years (with about four years as maybe the WORST SoS in US history), we know EXACTLY what The $hill will do in office -- and it ain't gonna be pretty -- bend over & brace yourselves --
When Cicero had finished speaking, the people said “How well he spoke”.
When Demosthenes had finished speaking, the people said “Let us march”.
Trump is far to HRC's left - opposes our military interventions
and correctly says they've led to the rise of ISIS - we're still supplying ISIS and we objected to the Russians bombing al Qaeda, for God's sake!
Trump opposes all those "trade" deals, wants to rebuild our infrastructure, actually defended Planned Parenthood on a GOP debate stage, and said, "Wouldn't it be nice if we got along with Russia?" in the last debate - to which Her Heinous responded with Red-Baiting, and claims that he's a Putin puppet. So she clearly doesn't intend to get along with Putin. And that's her public position.
She IS THE ENEMY of all life on earth, and will doubtless clap her hands again (see video of her enjoying Ghaddafi's murder) and laugh when the bombs start going off.
Not to mention bringing us all to heel for the benefit of Wall Street. Remember "never ever" single payer for us, in public. Her private position must be really awful.
And have plenty of lube
on hand. "... The Plutocracy in this ol' Land of Brave, Home of Free consists of representatives of about 400 families -- and they all know each other... " Indeed. Known as "The 400." We have our own "400" right here in my neck of the woods, which, in reality, is more like "The 40," but amounts to the same. 400 families own this joint. We just rent here, shop at "the company store," bank at "the company bank." Not sure if elections even matter anymore, but short of torches and pitch forks it's the only weapon we have against The 400. And only 55% of us 99ers even bother to do that. "They" got us right where they want us. How many public appearances did HRC make on her way to her coronation? Exactly. No need to face the public, it was in the bag. How often will she face the public after her coronation speech? Exactly. Zero.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
Sorry . . .
. . . just can't go along with this one . . . she is the enemy of all I hold dear.
Marilyn
"Make dirt, not war." eyo
Sorry Subir
I don't doubt your intentions are probably good. I read many of your pieces at Kos and I believe you are a person of conscience, but your plee will fall on deaf ears here as it should.
The Clintons are two of the most ethically challenged people on planet Earth, and continuing to enable them will lead to catastrophe. Yes, Trump is awful, awful, awful. I wouldn't vote for him either. That does not make Hillary in any way acceptable.
If this is the kind of material you want to publish here now, I would encourage people to ignore it.
Edited to add that I have already voted for Stein, and would encourage others to do like wise.
Yeah, it's a real shame, too
because the writing is often very good. I hate to miss out. But she'll never get my vote--in fact, it's too late for her anyway, I voted early, this morning.
The day after Election Day is when I go DEMEXIT. I am very much looking forward to leaving the corrupted Democratic Party behind me.
"republican attacks" = bad logic
sure, the rightwing goes after Hillary (like they do Obama) in some hilariously nutty ways. So? We're smart enough to disregard those and see what the real reasons are for not wanting her (or Bill) near the White House.
It is a disingenuous argument to cite something preposterous as if that is the actual problem. I see this often with Hillary. "Oh yeah, like she really killed Vince Foster", and then ignoring the real concerns....and, apparently, either believing that the Foster mention is a strong argument or hoping that people are dumb enough to go "oh yeah, she didn't kill him so she must be ok and all my objections are crazy".
But anyway, some of us have already voted for Jill Stein.
2 Steins in TerrierLand (n/t)
Now interviewing signature candidates. Apply within.
What drugs does Jeffrey Isaacs inhale?
I surely would to have some of the hallucinogens he's ingesting if he is serious about:
Last time I looked (which was 10 minutes ago) she was none of these. C'mon, Jeffy, plug me into your source!
Agreed,
I want some of what subir is smokin' (and I live in Colorado!) --
When Cicero had finished speaking, the people said “How well he spoke”.
When Demosthenes had finished speaking, the people said “Let us march”.
Nice play, sir. She ain't no progressive, she ain't no feminist
(except the highest-level ones who want to break the glass ceiling, so that they too can outsource all of their underlings and win hefty bonuses for themselves as a result), she is fucking open to restrictions on abortion, she only supports gay marriage because she saw which way the parade was going and did her best to run out in front.
She will say ANYTHING IN PUBLIC in order to win votes from suckers, and then serving the bidding of those who pay her $$$ behind closed doors.
How anyone can seriously trust that she will be on their side and a champion for their cause is utterly incomprehensible to me.
~OaWN
She is an enemy not the enemy
Her views on social issues are closer to most of ours than are Trumps (although she is rarely a leader and doesn't take a position until it has been thoroughly polled and focus grouped). With respect to economic policy and foreign policy, however, she is probably farther from most of us than Trump (a frightening thing to type). More to the point, electing Clinton will lock us into bad government for at least two terms (HRC X 2 or HRC followed by very bad Republican). There is no easy way to get from HRC to the kind of government we need in the short or medium term. With Trump there is some chance of revulsion after one term giving us a decent government. (I know that it is pitiful to think that this is the best option we have.) I already voted for Stein in any case.
I wouldn't vigorously challenge the assumption
that Trump is better on economic issues. I won't argue with anyone voting for Stein.
@subirgrewal
Edit: I think I misread this
Edit: I think I misread this comment and ascribed it intentions that were incorrect. My apologies.
She will not get two terms and
we will get President Cruz in 2020.
I agree w/ Jimmy Dore when he says that the next a-hole Repub we get will be as insane as Trump, but actually know what he's doing.
And it's the ones' who know what they are doing
that we most have to worry about.
~OaWN
What's really scary?
The Clintons are exactly the kind of people Dore is talking about. They're vile elitists would gladly kill millions if it made them richer, but they're slick enough to package it up such that large number of people are oblivious to their intentions.
Dore's scary future is already here.
That's actually part of the point
that Dore was making... that if the vile, Trojan horse-Clintons get in-- and do their dirty, bloody work as they are wont to do-- people will backlash and then vote something even worse than Trump in, in four years.
I would submit Hillery
is a neofascist in her own right. Basically a distinction without a difference. She's definitely not a friend. She's not even a neutral. That leaves her as an enemy to me, our way of life, and to the world at large. While I'm a master of hyperbole, I don't feel this is one of those cases.
There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.
So, once again
here, it's OK because they all do it? It's no big deal because the Right is attacking her? Come on now, you know better and yet you still want to come here and try to plead your case so your candidate can have some kind of "mandate" to do what she wants to do.
Do you need your own SS to live on? If so, then you're doing what we all accuse the idiot Baggers of doing - voting against their own interests for something called "politics". For God's sake, give it up.
And she is the enemy in my mind. A "feminist" who'd cut off her own mother if it meant she would win, a woman who wants to show how big her balls are by taking on Russia and who knows who else, much of it by bombing innocent women and children. But hey, she's a feminist because she cares about American women I guess, but American ones only. Russian women can go to hell, as can Iranians, Iraqis, and especially Syrian women, they are in her way after all.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Let me edit this a bit for you Lizzy...
Just a minor correction.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Thanks Alpha!
you are so right, how could I miss that!
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
I'm just happy to be of assistance. :)
FSM knows, there is a lot of stuff that I write that could use a bunch more editing.
Significantly more so than yours.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
You always write very well
and make me laugh, which we all desperately need now. Love the pic, and the description of where it was taken!
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
THIS
Exactly. That behavior isn't reserved for the Baggers anymore. Obviously.
"Do you need your own SS to live on?"
He works in finance, so I have little doubt that he's invested in multiple stocks. He just doesn't want to see the stock market plummet 700+ points when Trump is elected. Same as Kos.
Don't forget Honduran women
http://www.democracynow.org/2016/3/11/before_her_assassination_berta_cac...
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
So true, sadly the list of women
she'd bomb is simply too long to remember them all. So many countries, so little compassion for any of them.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
She's not a friend, either
She's kinda/sorta liberal on (some) social issues, but she's hardcore Third Way on economic issues, and on foreign policy, forget it. A totally unrepentant hawk. Never met a war she didn't support. So in two out of three political spheres, yes, she IS an enemy.
And to have someone who only agrees with us one-third of the time is unacceptable today. I can't speak for everyone here, but for me at least, some compromises that might have been acceptable in 1992 were no longer acceptable by 2008 and are completely beyond the pale in 2016. And here's a hint for the Dem establishment: we want to move forward. Keep pushing these neoliberals on us, and we'll look upon it even less favorably in 2020.
Chomsky describes a far-right victory as:
But that's exactly what they're doing NOW. And Chomsky is forgetting how left-leaning voters think. When there's a Democrat in the White House, they excuse everything, up to and including the same war-mongering and surveillance-state spying they originally elected that Democrat to put a stop to. The only way we can mobilize voters around issues is to place these issues in contrast to the Republicans. The Dem establishment knows this, which is how they get away with all manner of backsliding as long as they're in power.
Sorry, but saying we have to elect a right-wing Democrat because TRUMP! just doesn't frighten me. We're not going to keep the Republicans out of the White House forever. Go ahead and let the goon bring his own party down with him. And as far as Trump being the fascist, sure, but there may be more than one in this race. Trump isn't the one who floated the idea of "droning" Julian Assange.
"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum." --Noam Chomsky
She's only "Liberal" when it is not an inconvenience or a
monetary expense to her corporate overlords.
The rest of the time? I think you could easily argue that she is to the right of Reagan, twice as morally bankrupt and three times the warhawk...
She's about as much of a liberal as I am a 22 year old rock & porn star with the body of an Adonis.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Hadda snicker at the simile, Alpha.
Your photo doesn't do you justice.
There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.
You know, I may have to change it, it's been a while. :)
Might see what I have that is more recent to toss up there, that one is a couple years old now, lol!
How's this one? It's me celebrating the announcement of the FBI Investigation re-opening.
(Yeah, I know, I really need a shave and my glasses are crooked, but not as crooked as Hillary. 
)
Also took the opportunity to update my sig line. Something I have been meaning to do since the Convention.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
No, I want the totally up to date photo,
where you look like a 22-year-old rock and porn star with the body of Adonis
Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.
LoL! Me too!
If only....
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
"Go ahead and let the goon bring his own party down with him."
ABSOLUTELY agree, movie buff.
Better Trump now, than Cruz in 2020.
Annnnd, if Trump gets in, most of the zombie Dems will come back to the Left (after all, WE are the real home).
We have few friends in DC and many enemies, she is
with the majority.
Better an open enemy
than reliable betrayal from a faux friend. Trump should unite the left, and the defeat and destruction of the Clintonite neoliberal cancer on the democratic party will be healthier than 4-8 years of a divided left and a dem. president gleefully compromising with a GOP congress to dismantle the last remnants of the New Deal, while exploiting divisive identity politics to create the illusion of diverse support on the left for further neoliberal depredations and imperial conquest. Hillary and the faux-democrat machine is the enemy.
Shrug, I can't afford to risk a president Trump
I'm brown and most of my family and friends are immigrants. Call it identity politics if you want, I know what impact he has had on people i care about across the world. Others may have different views. I also don't believe he's going to be any better on FP or economic issues.
@subirgrewal
asdf
https://medium.com/@girlziplocked/as-secretary-of-state-hillary-admits-t...
https://www.thenation.com/article/a-voters-guide-to-hillary-clintons-pol...
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I've been waiting for subir to respond to you but
I'm starting to think that it's not going to happen anytime soon.
~OaWN
That's because there's really nothing to say--
the establishment decided to run somebody with very few, possibly no, redeeming qualities. Somebody who was already hated.
I've been calling this election "Rub America's Nose In It 2016," because there's only a few possible reasons to force two such hated candidates down our throats: 1)to impress upon us that we have no power, 2)to create even more aversion to voting and politics, with the ultimate result that most Americans would rather have a back molar extracted than pay any attention to politics ever again, and 3)as a pure psychological experiment.
I'm betting on reason #1.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
It seems to be working
according to gjohnsit's essay, a lot of the kids have decided to stay home instead of going out to vote.
~OaWN
Actually, if you were thinking straight...
...you'd realize that you can't afford a President Cliniton.
Upon what do you base this mind-boggling conclusion?
I agree that he's unlikely to be any better on economic issues, but I also don't see how he's going to be any worse on economic issues.
But when it comes to FP issues, I really don't know what you are basing your 'belief' on.
Trump has made it abundantly clear that he does not see Russia and China as America's enemies and Hillary has consistently shown that she does see them as our enemies.
That is a tremendously significant difference for any former Bernie Sanders supporter who is thinking straight.
On most other domestic issues, they are essentially the same.
Her warmongering disposition is, in fact, the deciding factor that has convinced me that I have to vote for Trump, an embarrassment of a human being whom I have ridiculed for more than a year now, in a desperate hope that it might help to save us from the horror of Hillary as Commander-in-Chief.
James Kroeger
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