Trump reminds me of another politician.
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You may not believe Trump will be able to diminish our country’s institutions or damage our society. If so, I urge you to think again about the darkness that dwells in the hearts of so many and what happens when discontent is intentionally channeled through it.
I know a version of Trump and the havoc he caused. And I do not underestimate the impact of a Trump presidency.
Bal Thackeray adopted a hodge-podge of ideological positions. His party controlled trade unions and he openly admired strongmen and dictators (including Hitler). The one constant throughout his career was the use of ethnic and religious divisions. His real talent was tapping into economic discontent, frustration and anger at corruption. He rose to prominence by fomenting resentment towards “immigrants” from other states in India. Bombay had been a melting pot for decades, attracting people from all over India who spoke a multitude of languages. Thackeray drove a wedge between Marathi-speakers (from the area around Bombay) and all others, convincing them South Indians, Gujaratis and Hindi-speakers were taking their jobs. Years later, when it became less easy to rouse people using linguistic differences, he moved on to exploit religion.
All of this should sound very familiar if you change a few names and places. There is also a lesson here. When people like Thackeray run out of “foreign” enemies to make the object of their hate, they create new “others”. In the end, their hate is directed at everyone.
Thackeray’s followers violently attacked political rivals and ordinary critics, ransacking offices and homes, even murdering an elected state legislator. In 1992 and 1993, the violence he had stoked over his career reached a peak when his newspaper and party apparatus fomented and exacerbated riots between Hindus and Muslims. His followers actively participated in an orgy of violence which caused over a thousand deaths and brought my city, a bustling metropolis, to a standstill for weeks. In ways large and small, his influence damaged the sense of security millions of people had felt. It fractured a society that had, over decades, built bridges through ethnic, religious and linguistic lines.
And Thackeray managed all of this without ever once running for election or holding an official position in his own party. His far right Shiv Sena party didn't win power in the state till 1995. He could do all this because there were real grievances to stoke. The city had failed to address vast socio-economic disparity and the loss of thousands of industrial jobs. Extreme inequality fueled Thackeray’s rise.
In many ways, our society has already been changed for the worse by Trump and his enablers. The damage that will ensue if he actually wins the presidency is hard to contemplate.
It's no secret I would have preferred Bernie and still do. But that is not to be.
Supporting a candidate does not mean agreeing with every position they hold, and it certainly does not mean papering over your differences. My biggest differences with Hillary Clinton are on foreign policy and the use of force. In this cycle, it’s become common to hear voices dismiss foreign policy as a minor concern. It is not. Our outsized role as a global superpower means our actions impact thousands, millions across the world. In the modern era, the President has almost unfettered power in this arena. The president literally makes life and death decisions every day.
Robotic weapons and powerful aerial bombing coupled with unreliable intelligence can lead to enormous civilian casualties. We rarely hear about these strikes because American lives are almost never at risk from a drone or a bomb dropped from the sky.
I’ve heard many in this cycle say we should focus on domestic issues and compromise on foreign policy. That FP is a concern of the “privileged” who are insulated from domestic economic issues and discrimination. I cannot ignore our actions overseas. In every child and civilian killed as collateral damage by drones, or by arms we supply to warring factions, I see reflections of myself, friends, acquaintances and members of my family. I cannot look away.
We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for the victims of our nation, for those it calls “enemy,” for no document from human hands can make these humans any less our brothers. — Beyond Vietnam
It pains me when elected officials are silent after the death of children and civilians caused by air and drone strikes. The disparity grates on me since public apologies are quickly proferred on the rare occasions when Europeans or Americans are mistakenly killed in strikes.
Yes, Hillary is far more hawkish than I would like, ready to use force too soon. More so than Obama, and far more than Bernie. Trump though, is in a different league altogether.
Hillary Clinton is calculating, which many believe to be a fault. It is also a blessing. I expect we can exercise influence on her administration with continued pressure and activism. Trump will not respond to argument or persuasion. He is as likely to order protesters be arrested or beaten to maintain “law and order”.
It needs to be said that Hillary is rarely careless. Trump, on the other hand, Is a careless fool prone to bluster and overreach, evidenced in full by his business dealings. I don’t trust a word he says. Apart from the chaos he will cause at home, there are immense risks that he will launch us into conflagrations, including wars, which cost American lives and many more non-American lives.
I'm not going to tell you how to vote. That is your decision as an independent, free thinking citizen. But, whatever you do in November, please don’t be lulled into believing Trump’s impact on our society will be effectively limited by other institutions. Or that electing Trump won’t damage our society and compromise these institutions enormously. It will, and the impact will be long-lasting.
--
@subirgrewal
X-post at DKos
Comments
I will not vote based on fear
I will vote based on that in which I believe.
Strategy should have been for the DNC to worry about - and they did. It's just that their strategy is based on a believe system which I share not at all.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
We are all
voting based on what we believe. Sometimes those beliefs are partly based on fear.
That does not mean they are wrong.
People who voted for dictators in the past would have been better off with a little more fear. We have these emotions for a reason you know. I agree we should not be ruled by them, but the United States is not some great utopia. We aren't the country we used to be.
As Dr. Stein said...
Choosing the lesser of two evils leads to a greater evil. Sealing the DLC/third-way/Clinton-wing over the once progressive Democratic party is indeed a greater evil. It's long past time in America for a new Progressive Party. Green will do. Martians should know.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
I have some agreement with that
A Hillary Presidency could lead to someone even worse than Trump in 2020. After all, Bill Clinton gave us Bush. I want something else besides lies and cover ups and fear in this election and Jill is the only person who is offering that. I may vote for Hillary to defeat Trump, as Bernie is doing, or I may not. I live in California where Bernie supporters are really pissed at Hillary so it could be a 4 way race here. It's awful that the media is not helping me with my decision by informing me in depth and without bias of all my options. If Democracy Now were the go to place for information, Jill would be the favorite to win. Maybe that's what will happen in the next couple of months. The stew is still boiling.
Beware the bullshit factories.
In 2016 ...
There is no lesser of two evils. There is only evil.
I accept the essayist's emotion toward Trump. I even accept that he believes there is a valid comparison between an Indian politician and Trump. But I refuse to accept that Hillary Clinton is a better choice or will be less evil or cares about anybody but herself.
Considering Clinton's age and the likelihood she'll die in office if she serves two terms, considering the Senate has acquitted the only two impeached presidents, and considering that she wants to pave the way for a future Chelsea regime, I believe that she will feel empowered to do whatever she wants whenever she wants to do it. And that, my Martian friend, will make the United States the opposite of some great utopia.
Long before Trump
jumped into politics, I took a look at what dictators in history had in common. I'm speaking of men who took what was mainly a civilized nation that saw to its on our affairs, and turned it into an expansionist nation that sought to become and empire that victimized its own citizens and others. They did in fact usually have leaders who had certain characteristics in common.
I'm talking about people like Mussolini, Hitler, Mao Tse-Tung, and many others early in history.
Usually in order to bring a nation violence, it's necessary to build upon the most basic resentments which people have. It is human nature to look for what is different and fear it, and whenever someone appears physically different, the simple minded man like to blame what is wrong on him. For that reason, racism is a problem that always been with us. It is the easiest tool for any demagogue.
I really don't know what extent Donald Trump would go to if he became President. I don't necessarily think he would overthrow his own government like Hitler did. But he has already made his contempt for civil rights very clear. All of these types always admire military dictators, specifically because they ignore people's rights. Anyone who thinks that he wouldn't strip the rights of Americans and grant police increased powers if he could is fooling themselves. He's spoken about that a lot, and made his position very clear.
The worst excesses of the police to date have been moderated by the Justice Department. If Trump were elected, do you suppose the Justice Department would still be put to that use? Why would a man who speaks fondly of police ignoring the rights of protesters use them in that way? That would be ridiculous.
In excess of 40% of our population lives in poverty.
When you don't have sufficient FOOD to feed your family, the rest really doesn't matter. Bill and Hillary Clinton thought that bringing "the end of welfare as we know it" was a good idea. Maybe not such a good idea for those who now have to look their children in the eyes and quietly explain to them that there is NO MORE FOOD. When YOU have to do that, come back and tell me about Mussolini. Until that time, I don't consider Hillary to be the lesser of evils.
Yes, there is a terrible irony in the truth that
the resentment Trump is tapping into is at least partly the result of neo-liberal policies.
@subirgrewal
Career Training
Isn't it true that most dictators have been either lawyers, politicians, or both before becoming dictators? (Ruh-roh, that describes Hillary Clinton!!) And isn't it true that essentially all of the rest were in or had been in the military? Have any businessmen with no legal or political or military background ever become dictators?
Truthfully,
I don't think Trump will be any worse, for what's left of our Democracy, than $hillary. Personally, I will not vote for either one of them. Ever.
Sorry, Subir,
I really liked your Bernie posts. Cogent, concise,and intellectually honest(to my minds eye, at least). Voting for the lesser evil is still voting for evil.
Fuck that shit. When a party does all it can do to nominate a candidate using any means, fair or foul(mostly foul), that party, or its members have lost any moral authority to try to influence my vote.
I used to vote rethuglikkkan(in the '80's) out of family habit and inertia. Billy got me to leave(actually rethug policies and shitty attitudes) and I became an independent voting the person/policies, not party. This year, I registered Dem to ensure being able to vote for Bernie. I will re-register(again) as an npp on Friday to show my displeasure with the Dems.
No more evil, lesser or no.
Voting FOR something for once, not against. That way lies madness.
Good luck to you, Sir, on your journey this election year.
#Never $hillery.
Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .
Explain Bldg #7. . . still waiting. . .
If you’ve ever wondered whether you would have complied in 1930’s Germany,
Now you know. . .
sign at protest march
Everyone should feel free to vote however they want
The only point I was trying to make is not to underestimate the amount of damage that someone like Trump can do.
@subirgrewal
Nor should you underestimate the damage that
someone like Hillary Greedham Clinton can do - and that we know she will do, because she has done tremendous amounts of damage.
Pick your poison - arsenic, or strychnine?
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
What about the damage of accepting election fraud as normal?
That does permanent damage to the vital organs of democracy.
The big invitation to tyranny here is not Trump, but pretending we didn’t notice any election fraud when it was right in front of everyone’s nose.
Sky is falling run for the hills
Come on give me a break. Vote for whomever you want, but do not feed me the bullshit it is too early in the morning to stroke the embers of fear (I am on the west coast).
If you were truly someone that really cares look at both sides of the coin. For all the fear peddling, doom, and gloom you are feeding us about Trump look at Hillary. She laughs at killing a person (yes a dictator) but come on you do not laugh at anyone's death. Moreover, she is a master of feeding the war machine and supporting the establishment. A war hawk globalist elitist that has enriched herself and family (Bill and her were broke in 2000 and now they are worth at least $150 million- not too bad about $10 million a year for "book sales and speeches"- wink/wink). Moreover, look at her beloved foundation all the charity they have spread- what, they have only given 11% to worthy causes and everything else is spent on administrative costs- shocking.
Therefore, do me a favor, do a little homework and think about your vote, but do not scare me into voting for a fraud. Neither of these candidates deserves MY VOTE but I will not in God's name vote for the lesser of two evils.
One more note, seen I am so worked up do you truly believe one man can destroy our form of government (3 branches that check and balance each other) that has been in existing for over 225 years and survived a civil war in just 4 years. You are giving Trump WAY too much credit.
I love how these
old clinton supporters and newly minted clinton supporters write these essays telling us exactly how trump will run the country. Trump's an unknown. He's never held public office. He's a blowhard and a braggart but don't insult my intelligence by telling me what trump will or will not do if elected. Now this doesn't mean I will support him or want him as president, just stop with the boogeyman bullshit. clinton OTOH, is a known quantity. She is the boogeyman. Please clinton supporters, pixels are a terrible thing to waste. Just say NO to yourself when you feel the urge to write another "lesser evil" diary to try to bring us heathens into the light. We are beyond redemption. Leave us alone so we may wander the wastelands in peace...
I'm not so sure.
Trump routinely fantasizes about punching people and goads on his followers into hitting people. He has a bully's reflexes. I recognize that. I don't see that in Hillary. Now you may say he's just kidding and messing around. You are free to believe that.
@subirgrewal
Here's a name for you.
Berta Cáceres. Look this wonderful person up and read her history. And this is just the tip of the clinton iceberg. She may not be inciting her followers to punch people, but she herself is a terrorist by all accounts to many nations and cultures around the world. Your lame ass "but trump's a bully!" doesn't cut it with me. He's a rube compared to the clintons. I'm done engaging with you. Go back to top...
You're right, Hillary's not a
You're right, Hillary's not a bully; she's a sociopath.
Truth be told, I'd rather have the bully in this false dichotomy.
I have no doubt that Trump will do major lasting damage.
Any Republican will. 99% of Democrats, too. We know that for a fact. There has to be accountability in this process. I absolutely will not reward one side just because the other will be incrementally worse. If we vote for Hillary, at what point do we say that enough is enough? When are the Democrats going to be held responsible for the damage they have caused to our institutions?
It is impossible to win every election. It's always the most important election in our lifetime. I'm not buying it anymore. I would much rather take a beating in the short term if it means fixing the country and our political system in the long term. If we don't clean house within the Democratic Party and the Left by delivering a massive defeat to Hillary, there will be no point in trying to change our foreign policy, because we will always be left with a false choice at the end of the process no matter what we do.
Yes,well said.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
hear hear!
Very good points and comment, I can not agree more. Short term decisions (pain) for long term gain (positive gain and get us back on track)!
With neocons backing H, I see no one even trying to refute this.
Although not coming right out and saying so, perhaps those who support Hillary — under whatever set of arguments — like current U.S. foreign policy just fine (it just needs even more
cowbellIsrael).Defeating Hillary seems the only way to interrupt the parade of PNAC-plan-guided presidents who — whatever their professed goals — in fact only bring more and more chaos to North Africa and the Muslim Middle East.
If I wanted a woman with PNAC credentials, I’d have backed Condoleezza Rice for president. African-American and a woman, historic squared.
Voting for Jill Stein won't create a dictator
Economies that don't create any path to prosperity build up fuel to provide energy for a dictator. Political systems that disenfranchise most people, or which are too irredeemably broken by corruption or petty infighting to work properly, open the door to invite them in. Widespread anger at the ruling classes pours gasoline all over the floors and walls. When such conditions exist, there is always a possibility that someone will light a match and burn a democratic system down.
The Democratic Party these days is doing at least as much as the Republican Party to prepare the ground for a dictator in this country. Barack Obama has engaged in extra-judicial killings of American citizens. His administration has enthusiastically encouraged the militarization of police forces, and coordinated turning them loose on civilian protestors in 2011 against the Occupy movement. He saw to it that no oligarchs were held to account for collapsing our economy and ruining the lives of tens of millions of our citizens. And he is pushing yet another set of "trade" agreements that would eviscerate democratic control over giant corporations.
Dictatorship has been creeping up on this country for decades, and it's already at least half arrived. When our two political parties offer deeply unpopular candidates nobody trusts, the illusion of democracy is pretty much destroyed already. Continuing to endorse this process by voting for Hillary Clinton would not prevent a dictatorship. It would only ratify it.
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What DallasDoc said!
with an addendum: Hillary is not careless? Laughing at the grisly death of a dictator? Sending troops off to war without ever having read the memo that formed the basis for it? Emails on her private home server?
Please, Subir, give me your definition of careless.
I am more afraid of the TPP than Trump.
Stein gets my vote.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
24 carat comment there, healerman.
"Just call me Hillbilly Dem(exit)."
-H/T to Wavey Davey
...dictatorship half arrived and greeted with enthusiasm ...
thanks for your comment, dallasdoc. You express it so clearly. Most peoples love their dictators. Until they wake up because their love couldn't protect them from becoming a target of their leader's suffocating embrace. Love affairs have their endings, sometimes they wither away, sometimes they leave bitter memories. Sometimes they end tragically. Let's hope that will not be the case.
https://www.euronews.com/live
The damage trump could do to the US
One, it's overstated (he has no support from either party to do anything he'd want to).
Two, is based on speeches, not actions (Statements on what Hillary would do are based on her record).
Three, are in no way comparable to the damage Hillary would do, not just to the nation, but to the world at large. Hillary is a threat to far, far more people than Trump is. Do their lives not matter because they're not a US citizen?
You say Trump would likely have protesters beaten and arrested. Bad news on that front: Hillary has a political record showing support of censorship. Plus, she and her husband are responsible for the creation of this militarized police force that already beats and arrests protesters. So that argument is a complete loss.
And if Trump was more likely to get us into more wars, why is it that Republican war hawks are flocking to Hillary? You'd think they'd be supporting the candidate more likely to get us more wars, and them more plump bank accounts. Oh wait, if that's the case, then I guess that makes Hillary the one more likely to get us into more wars, doesn't it?
Evil doesn't broadcast its presence.
Trump may or may not be the next Adolf Hitler
Who can say? The problem from my stand point is that I really don't have any choice. A vote for Hillary and a vote for Clinton are really one and the same. In both cases I'm voting for an authoritarian willing to use force both domestically and internationally to accomplish their goals and unconcerned about any price tags.
More concerning, both perpetuate the system we are locked into which got us to this exact moment in history. Voting for the establishment says, "Yes, I want more of this."
Possibly even worse from my standpoint, I know exactly who and what Hillary is. I know that in politics we like to do newfangled math where up equals down and left equals right but I'm going to be old school here. A vote for Hillary is a vote for Hillary and it's a vote for every single [additional] Muslim she kills. Hillary as president brings with it an absolute certainty of expanded war in the Mideast along with lord only knows what from a special-ops and intelligence standpoint.
Put more simply, I cannot vote for Henry Fucking Kissinger.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Trump doesn't even have the support of his party.
Hillary doesn't either, but she's trying much harder to lock up the institutional party, and use the organs of party propaganda to make the little people fall into line. There's a good argument that a Hillary Clinton with Democrats united behind her would be more dangerous than Donald Trump with Republicans running for the hills.
I talk to older Trump supporters fairly frequently. The universal endorsement they give him is, "He can't be bought." It's not true, of course, but it's the brand he has created for himself and it is reinforced by the Republican power elites bad-mouthing him. Democrats went in exactly the opposite direction, with a candidate who doesn't bother to conceal she's been entirely bought a hundred times over, and fought tooth and nail to make sure populist views were not accepted into their tent. It's too late for them to preach to populist resentments now.
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Trump rose to fame on the book "The Art of the Deal"
It was a work of fiction as the "ghost" writer has confessed. Trump has zero attention span and has trouble writing down consecutive thoughts. The evening of the Republican Convention, the writer Tony Swartz received a threatening Cease and Desist order from Trump's lawyer. That in itself shows you that Trump has only one priority, himself.
To thine own self be true.
What you are saying is true
But in many ways those things are also true for Hillary.
I'd rather vote for someone I like.
Did you draw the short straw?
Was today your turn to trot on over to sell Hillary and fear? I would have expected "more and better" from you.
I'd rather poke out my eyes that vote for that lying, "extremely careless per Comey", corrupt, thieving POS and her POS husband. Tell the person whose turn it is next to save their time.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
why
the smears about "draw[ing] the short straw" and "your turn to trot on over to sell Hillary and fear," and "tell the person whose turn it is next to save their time"?
Subir has been on this site since March. Subir was a passionate Sanders supporter. He's also a well-known advocate for Palestinians.
But now, according to you, subir is part of some sinister cabal, taking turns in publishing here things you don't like.
Though I thought that, when you've been "moderating," I've read you saying something along the lines that's it's fair to attack the position, but not the person.
Have the rules changed?
No, they haven't changed.
That comment was not moderation. When I am speaking as a moderator for the site, I make it clear.
Not that I owe you one, but I will explain. We have had at least three people venture over with overtures to "rethink" our position on Hillary. There was a post at top that more or less said that a group of Berners from TOP, respected as reasonable by the Hillarybots, had a plan to post diaries here in an attempt to change our minds and our votes. If you want salvation, you might want to try TOP.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
i fail to see
how it is appropriate for you to post in violation of the moderation guidelines, when you are not in moderation mode.
A link to this post & this plan that you reference, that would be nice. Even if such post & plan do exist, but they do not mention subir, then you are still burning the witch. Attacking the person. Not the position.
It is amusing to me, that on this so-called "progressive" site, people can post all day, and all of the night, that they are voting for Trump, because he is less worse than Clinton, and receive in response nary a murmur, yet let someone say they are voting for Clinton, because she is less worse than Trump, and people absolutely lose their shit.
Just goes to show. That some animals. Are more equal. Than others.
Guess you missed the ranting roaring screaming
that ate up far too much of the last three days and far too much of this site's precious bandwidth. Turns out the person who was beating the "Injustice! Cruelty! Tyranny! Only SHE can Save Us From The Crematoriums!" drum so loudly was a liar and a fraud who was stirring shit so they could run back to DKos and post diaries about how wicked and evil and cruel people at C99 are.
I think the threads have been nuked. You didn't want to know anyway.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
i saw that
And it had what to do with subir's piece, exactly?
Pretty amusing, too, that people would be all aghast and condemnatory that someone would come here "stirring shit so they could run back to DKos and post diaries about how wicked and evil and cruel people at C99 are," when this site is swollen with people bitching and moaning about how wicked and evil and cruel people at Kos are, and routinely post pieces here, asking for suggestions as to how the pieces should later be presented at Kos, and then, after said posting to Kos, come back into the comments here, to carp and moan and bitch about how wicked and evil and cruel were the people at Kos.
Well, many of us have had shitty experiences
at Dkos. I'm not sure how this is news.
But, truly, I respect subir a great deal. I don't agree with his assessment of the situation here, but I don't begrudge him his own right to vote for whomever he chooses. I have many friends, either outright Hillary supporters or accidental ones, and I'm cool with them, too.
What I'm not cool with is people coming here, people who've never posted on this website before, writing diaries telling us to vote for Hillary. For the most part, this website is fairly anti-Hillary and that's no secret. Most of us are not voting for her.
c99p has a niche audience, just like Dkos does. I really don't see the problem with that, honestly.
I miss Colorado.
subir
didn't tell people to vote for Hillary. And he's been here since March.
And you're right, it isn't news, that people have had shitty experiences at kos. Or that, here, they won't shut up about it. ; ) Or that they invite new shitty experiences, by posting something over there, and then coming back here, to cry about their most recent shitty experience.
I don't think anyone should tell people how to vote.
I can't catch a break this week, I get yelled at on DKos and here
@subirgrewal
people
are not behaving at their best much of anywhere these days.
I think this might be the Year Of The Yelling. : /
I hope you won't let this experience run you off. I think you would bring much of value to this site.
I'd say let the Berners come
Subir is not a troll, and he has my respect. I don't agree with him, and his rendition of But Trump Is Hitler is no more persuasive than anybody else's, including Bernie's. But it was my impression that we allowed disagreements in good faith around here. I'm not a moderator, thank Dog, and don't have to put up with those pressures. But if you'll allow me to quote myself, I tried to set up some similar ground rules over there when I posted an indictment of Hillary called "Enough:"
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I agree. Not only can we tolerate disagreements, we can be a
more interesting site for decent conversations from all sides.
We're just a little raw from yesterday.
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Really?
They aren't doing a good job of it.
Got a link?
Gee, you smearing me or what I said?
Pick a side, any side. I did not attack or smear Sadir. I never called him names, not even paranoid. I did question his actions, and I did express disappointment at someone I thought more of. I haven't been hopping up and down in anyone's face having hissy fits either.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
still waiting
for your link to this claim: "There was a post at top that more or less said that a group of Berners from TOP, respected as reasonable by the Hillarybots, had a plan to post diaries here in an attempt to change our minds and our votes."
And this certainly sounds like an attack on the person, more than the position:
As for "I haven't been hopping up and down in anyone's face having hissy fits either," sure seems like you were hopping up and down in his face having some kind of fit. ; )
Subir? Seriously?
Uh, I think you need to do some fact-checking here.
More to the point, whether this comment came from the most ardent Hill-Shill on GOS or someone like Subir ought to be irellevant. When did C99 become the site of alternate political correctness?
I don't know about you but I readily acknowledge that there are no good answers in this election. This means the election calculus in play is complex. There are, in fact, real price tags attached to Trump getting in office. That means I'm unable to argue decisively with folks who come up with a different answer than I do because I simply don't have any black & white answer. Subir's plea was only asking us to not stick our head in the sand regarding the downsides of Trump. Is that unfair somehow?
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Conscientious people don't have the luxury of voting "for"
…a candidate in this election. They have the obligation to vote "against" one.
Let us not overlook the fact that this burden was created by the Neoliberal cartel that runs the Democratic Party and not by Donald Trump or the Republican Party. The Democratic Party disenfranchised, betrayed, and sabotaged their members into this position through electoral corruption, in order to elevate a grasping sociopath and recognized war criminal to rule over the free world with dishonor and brutal military chaos. This situation is the product of the degraded and compromised Democratic Party — over the objections of those Democrats who have retained their Moral Compass, and who thus follow the dictates of their hearts and minds in order to lift all of the people onto a level field of social justice.
Conscientious and moral people did not create the evil vs. evil gambit, a tool of political manipulation that is favored by triangulating neoliberals.
However, conscientious people will respond by barring the door of power from the most depraved actors amongst us. They will vote AGAINST the greater evil, and let the lesser evils fall where they may.
Be warned.
IMAGINE if you woke up the day after a US Presidential Election and headlines around the the world blared, "The Majority of Americans Refused to Vote in US Presidential Election! What Does this Mean?"
Trump was honestly nominated against his official party’s wishes
Trump was honestly nominated against his official party’s wishes.
Clinton was fraudulently nominated in line with her official party’s wishes.
Isn’t the election process kind of sacred in a democracy? Honestly versus fraudulently, shouldn’t that count for something in this decision?
Why doesn’t that seem to register at all with Hillary supporters?
Why don’t they think that means anything or makes any difference?
People who can’t or won’t distinguish between honestly and fraudulently — why would they think they deserve anyone’s trust?
There's something about the "capture" of cognition
…that took place among obedient Democrats that is eternally haunting. I was hoping I would not live long enough to see an Orwellian manifestation in my world. But since the beginning of the Neocon wars in 2002, the American people have been systematically terrorized by their government. The press fell first, and then the really outrageous propaganda began.
The people's moral compass was an early casualty. US murder and mayhem waged around the world was perfectly acceptable to Americans, almost overnight.
But over all of it, the pounding fear drilled into Americans never stopped.
In recent years, the propaganda has been assaulting American brains with the force of a firehose. This intensity began shortly after Snowden, and took a decidedly anti-Russian turn. The shifting hatred and fear of the ever-changing enemy now exactly mimicked 1984.
This was the cognitive "capture" and the Democrats were the focus. (The Republicans had already been harnessed by Hate Radio two decades earlier.)
I am quite amazed and impressed so many Americans escaped the brainwashing, as demonstrated by the strong showing of support for Bernie Sanders. They came out of nowhere, vibrantly aware people who still had a moral compass! I think that surprised everyone, even them. The Democratic Cartel certainly never saw it coming. This was not why they allowed Bernie to run.
But the "capture" was so cognitively devastating, that those affected no longer present an objective center. Blatant lies and crimes are committed right in front of their dead eyes. They react soullessly. It's been shocking to behold.
IMAGINE if you woke up the day after a US Presidential Election and headlines around the the world blared, "The Majority of Americans Refused to Vote in US Presidential Election! What Does this Mean?"
Excuse me a moment.
Is this or is it not a site that welcomes all political opinions? I know that is a broad, too broad in my opinion, position. There are opinions too repugnant to be permitted access to our pages. I fail to see how subir's message, however unpopular or whatever his motive for posting it here, rises to a level of repugnant. (Is that the standard? I don't know.) He was a very widely accepted and welcome addition here in March. I personally don't see any reason his status should change or that he should be treated any differently from any member. I really think taking a shot at any member's motive is close to being inappropriate. I'd also submit that framing it as a direct question based on your knowledge would be completely acceptable. You do have a valid basis to ask.
I also don't have any heartburn with anyone asking those of us who disagree, and I do strongly disagree, to reconsider. He didn't ask us to accept the practice of biting the heads off of unwanted kittens or anything. He presented his position and reasoning for arriving at it then asked us to consider it. Perfectly reasonable. It is not in my opinion the slightest bit offensive to ever rethink a strongly held idea. I actually think repeatedly validating ideas is healthy. One reason to be offended is reading a request as being told what to do. That's on whoever might feel that way. I welcome alternative points of view regardless of whether I like them or have heard the same thing a dozen times too many. We are in dire danger of becoming an echo chamber not long after when things we don't like or want to hear are not welcome. Trolls might, probably already are IMO, take advantage of this site's openness but trolls wither and die when not fed.
By the way I do not expect an answer. I'm not asking for one. I'm only expressing my opinion as a member of this community.
"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."
that question is unfair ..
I do not welcome all political opinions. And I don't have to. And we don't have to be manipulated by this supposed standard for this site either.
Tired of this. Play among yourself. I won't feed you any further, nor do I want to waste my time figuring out who is a troll and who is not. Don't have time for it.
https://www.euronews.com/live
Did the DP take all of that
Did the DP take all of that into consideration when they did everything possible to defeat the primary candidate who could have beat Trump, and manipulated the outcome to nominate a candidate who can't? The DP, DNC, and the media - not the voters - are responsible. It didn't have to be like this, the DP clearly wanted it to be like this. I will not support a Party that would go to such lengths to create such a horrible situation.
How exactly do you propose to do this?
What pressure could we possibly exert?
Did you watch the DNC? And what effects did our activism have?
Don't be ludicrous. I'm voting for Jill, not some scarecrow you put out there.
I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance. - e.e.cummings
That's one of the big problems I have
I no longer believe that polls, opinion surveys, phone calls, letters and protests move our politicians even one iota. I think our politicians care about exactly two things. The first is that they care about votes because without that they cannot feed at the public trough. The second is they care about money, both for personal enrichment and for manipulating the populace for votes.
Given that I don't have enough money to buy a Senator that leaves me with exactly one method of "exercising influence"... my vote.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Here is a thought
Progressives in swing states hold your nose and vote for Hillary, the rest in those locked Dem states or of course Rethug states vote for Jill Stein. A huge turnout by the greens might be enough to form the nucleus for a peoples party
Vote for the person you think is best
that's what you're supposed to do. Period.
I am profoundly sorry, but I've been "holding my nose to vote" for 35 years now, and I am done doing that...
Oh, hell no!
Some of us live in swing states year-round, you know. First it was Wisconsin, then Colorado, now Wisconsin again.
I've voted in every presidential election since 1988, always for the Democrat. Simply can't do it anymore, man. I'm done. Stick a fork in me.
I miss Colorado.
Michael Dukakis opined yesterday ...
... that every state is a swing state this time around. Sounds like he at least understands the D's problem here. Another line that Green voters should watch out for.
He lost them all, so he should know :-P
Another damn lousy candidate foisted on us by the Powers That Be as a sacrificial lamb in the name of the Political Process.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Here is an alternative thought
Progressives and all those who believe in the People over the System, wherever they might be, open their arms wide and joyfully vote their conscience - Dr. Stein.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
See lunachickie's post right up,
you are both right. Stein may not be everyone's response, some of us want the movement to stay together and she is asking for our votes, not assuming or daring.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Trump as dictator ... way over the top
The MSM and the Democrats decided early that the best way to defeat Trump was to portray him as way over the top, as an out of control bigot and megalomaniac. We digested way too much of this propaganda and now repeat it ad nausea.
I'm a lifelong Progressive and his Republican policy stands are completely unacceptable to me, except for his trade policy, but a dictator in waiting, no way. I have spent considerable time listening to his speeches and press conferences (Hillary hasn't had one on almost a year, she is basically chicken-shit to answer for her behaviors), I've talked to Trump supporters and I don't get the extremism. He supports the rights of the protestors at the conventions. He supports the rights of the minority candidates to be in the debates.
He has more women then men in executive positions in his organization. He pays equal pay for women. He was for same sex marriage while Hillary was touting DOM. I think that he gleefully violates PC, and sometimes you have to talk about minorities. How do you say that the drug war and violence is mostly coming across the Mexican border, without sounding bigoted.
He has been getting slammed in the MSM. In his last press conference he confronted them for egregious lies. They could not defend the stuff they had printed.
I think that he is basically a wheeling-dealing businessman that believes he can do better for America than previous Presidents, including Bush and including both Clintons. He certainly is self-promoting, but Hillary is unabashedly self promoting, for nothing (I'm a woman --- you were born that way), and experience of making the worst decisions possible.
I'm trying to figure out what he really has said that so many paint him as an extreme bigot.
I'm voting for Jill, because we have to either build a new Left party or shock the old one into change (ha!). I hope that Trump wins and brings about some good changes. For one, I hope that he fires all of the scoundrels embedded in our government, Democrats and Republicans, especially the Neocons and Neoliberals that Obama gleefully left in place. (Your all fired!)
Capitalism has always been the rule of the people by the oligarchs. You only have two choices, eliminate them or restrict their power.
I think the Trump as dictator thing is really going to backfire
especially during the debates. The whole approach has a very "Reaganesque" feel to it, where the Republican is being made to look crazy, but once people really start paying attention, he'll seem reasonable. Using that kind of hyperbole is very dangerous, especially for someone like Hillary that's already seen as untrustworthy. If Trump starts looking presidential or begins to more succinctly articulate the voice of blue collar America, it makes every anti-Trump thing that the Democrats have said during this convention look like a lie and undercuts her entire rationale for the presidency, which is why it's simply not enough to say "Trump is dangerous."
Just to clarify, Thackeray was not a dictator
and never came close to exercising that level of power (his appeal never went beyond Maharashtra). He admired strongmen and dictators. He did however, create a lot of chaos and destruction, and his party did undo numerous inclusive practices, rules and laws.
@subirgrewal
Subir, I feel your pain.
I understand you are afraid. Many people are. Find your courage and vote your conscious. I know you are capable. If you support her, go for it - I support you. However, her heinous will never get my vote because I do have courage and do not fear Herr Drumpf.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Trump reminds *me* of an asshole
probably because he is an asshole that walks like a man and talks from his rear orifice. I find that a rather more persuasive argument than all this "Boooga Booga Booga Trump is EEEEEEVIL!!!" stuff.
But I'm still not going to vote for that lying cheating vote-stealing process-abusing pile of shit in a pantsuit, either.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Dictators steal elections
There is only one candidate this cycle who can claim that dishonor, and it ain't Trump.
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
"It needs to be said that Hillary is rarely careless. "
So, you didn't hear Comey say she was 'extremely careless' with her emails? Or are you just making things up?
As opposed to Hillary, who has already done those things.
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
Trump has been damned for being careless with other people's
money and then pocketing his profit and skipping.
Hillary has done the same with US taxpayer money and foreign blood and has skipped away from fault. Relative (not quantitative) equivalence.
edit carless to careless, humorous typos are always good.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Ah yes. "Pressure."
This is of course what the nice liberals do best: "pressure" their favorite politicians after having granted them votes no matter what. And as for Trump:
I'm sure that everyone's favorite Kissinger scholar and PNAC acolyte will ward off those wars just fine.
See, this is the thing. Not only is this diary lesser-evilism, it exhibits the standard failure to make a real comparison between the candidates. And, as for lesser-evilism:
The problem the lesser evil voters never see is that the lesser-evil politicians make way for the greater-evil ones. Trump's candidacy is a product of eight years of Obama rule. It may only take four years of rule by Clinton Two to produce a smarter Trump capable of winning an election.
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
I have appreciated and
I have appreciated and continue to appreciate subir's writings. I have no problem with him laying out what he feels is a significant concern, especially when he can bring in the first hand experience of it happening in his home city.
That doesn't mean people can't disagree and attempt to refute his conclusions. It would be nice if it stayed as civil as his original post is (and as everything else I've seen him write has been).
Clinton is calculating. I think she has a tendency to, as was said about the Republicans a while back, "create her own reality" with her calculations and see what she wants to see instead of what is actually going on. Sometimes she pulls things off, other times she trips herself up.
Trump is likely to roll over for the Republicans in Congress, which means it is up to the Democrats to try and stop them. I would expect Clinton to do some good along the way, she isn't Hannibal Lector. But I also expect that when it is a corporate benefit goal, or something that feeds her ego in a way that doesn't help the rest of us, she'll be more adept than Trump at finding both Rs AND Ds to get that bill to her desk.
Clinton is known to change her story line depending on the audience. But with Trump, he's likely to change his story in the same sentence, maybe even a couple of times. I feel no confidence that I can predict what he'll do, other than probably something I won't like. Whether that is rounding up people to send them to camps or just making us all wear Trump(TM) branded hats, beats me.
There is no black and white here for me. I value subir's (and others) thoughts and I expect that it is possible to make a good case for voting for just about anyone; it all depends on how narrowly the argument is focused and on what assumptions are being made.
While I have leanings for and against different positions/candidates/parties at this time, I'll probably not make a final decision until much closer to election day. There's over three months to go and a lot of variables can change, especially in an election as tumultuous as this one is turning out to be.
Sorry subir
this might be way too soon. Nerves are frazzled and emotions are running high here. The natives are not in a mood to play nice.
I've considered everything you had to say. I reject it. I'll reconsider repeatedly until the election. At this moment I can't imagine anything that would change my mind but I have to admit this has been an extraordinary election cycle. I see no bounds on the potential for more crazy shit. Nothing is impossible. Try again in October.
"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."
More than 100 days.
That's the last time, til this essay, that this essayist contributed here.
I Rarely diary. Never did over yonder in eight years.
But I read nearly daily and comment often.
That candidate is criminal, imo, contemptible. To come here and post this essay is contemptible, and I don't care if this essayist was a Sanders supporter.
No response to comments, just like what is listed in the 'troll' essays. If anyone comes here and posts an endorsement for that IMHO criminal candidate, they have to expect they will be told like it is.
I fear The Mad Bomber
more then The Hairball. They are both psycho's who should not have any power. I take issue with the fact that you have glazed over and painted Clinton in a light that is false and misleading. For starters she seems more like a dictator then Trump, especially in 'foreign policy' actually on any policy. Immigration?
She belongs to The Family that admire Hitler and other want to rule the world bloody dictators. They believe that any means used to attain power is good as the elite are per-destined to rule. Not democratic at all. As for civil and human rights the Clinton's are terrible on that front. They do not respect the universal rule of law or our bill of rights. These are an impediment to their 'inevitable' new world order. We came we saw we killed will be her MO. Even when she is trying to sound like rational human she is scary. She just fucking evil. If you care about the plight of the Palestinians you should research what she's about. She's PNAC, Kagan and Kissinger love her and praise her viscous bloody foreign policy.
There is no way that Hillary is going to be moved to the left. She is what she is and although The Hairball sounds worse and acts worse it's a hairs breath of lesser evilism. The Clinton's already have too much global power. They for me are far more dangerous to all humans and the planet. Their the king and queen of neoliberal run amok global disaster capitalism. Big Dog will be running the economy. Now that terrifying.
No one can hold a candle to both of them as far as being lairs. Here's a Call To Action for the walkout of Bernie delegates.
by Kshama Sawant. She has some good points about lesser evilism and the rise of the RW. The article is a good dose of the real consequences of voting out of fear.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/07/26/a-call-to-action-walk-out-from-th...