Trump throws Pence under the bus

It's time we stopped thinking of Trump as some evil genius.

President Donald Trump dragged Vice President Mike Pence into his growing impeachment scandal during a rambling press conference at the United Nations.
...Trump urged an investigation of his own vice president.

“And I think you should ask for VP Pence’s conversation, because he had a couple of conversations also,” Trump suggested.

He then said he would release the transcripts of Pence’s communications.

“But the word is that they’re going to ask for the first phone conversation. You can have it any time you need it. And also Mike Pence’s conversations, which were I think one or two of them,” Trump offered. “They were perfect. They were all perfect.”

This is not the words/actions of a stable genius.
I think Trump is having a mental meltdown like Biden is.

Even the WSJ admits that it looks like corruption.

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This could end up being great for progressives.
Why? Because Trump will double-down on Biden's corruption.

In March 2016, Biden made one of his many trips to Ukraine and told the country's leaders that they had to get rid of the prosecutor if they wanted $1 billion in U.S. aid. Biden told the story last year at the Council on Foreign Relations:

"I said, 'You're not getting the [$1 billion]. I'm leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you're not getting the money.' Well, son of a b****. He got fired," Biden said.

That looks like corruption too.
The media is brushing it off, but it looks sketchy as Hell.

The best thing about these scandals is that they are easy to understand, and thus hard to spin.

We could be looking at the beginning of the end of both Trump and Biden.
Good riddance.
Hopefully Bernie will pick up those Biden voters.

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snoopydawg's picture

Where? I don't see anything in his phone call that points to a crime. No quid pro quo which is what people say he did. Nowhere does he say that "if you look into what ByeDone did with the prosecutor then I'll finally let the weapons come to you." Which BTW Obama was reluctant to do because it'd increase the tension with Russia. And don't forget that it was Obama's coup that set everything in motion. Why did the democrats go ahead with their impeachment inquiry before they even saw what the information was?

Imagine Trump overthrowing Madura in Venezuela and then letting lil Don and Eric sit on the oil company's board of directors. The democrats would throw a fit. So how did Trump's base react to the news?......

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The donor class doesn’t want it, and Americans elect the bribed. So suck it up.

Humans must not submit to policing by machine.

Wally's picture

@snoopydawg

Posted an old outdated article about Kamela raising $

Thanks WoodsDweller for pointing out my morning miscue.

But does anyone know how much the Dem candidates and/or the Dem Party raised yesterday? Was it anywhere close to the $5M the GOP is claiming?

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WoodsDweller's picture

@Wally

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"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone

gulfgal98's picture

@snoopydawg I tend to agree with you, snoopy. I am not defending Trump, but this should not the hill Dems want to die on based upon what has been publicly released thus far.

The most problematic thing for me is that the whistleblower did not have first hand knowledge and no one who did has come forward so far. So what we have to go on right now is the transcript of the call which is Trump being a blowhard like he always is, and the written complaint by the whistleblower whose own knowledge is second hand.

The election is about one year away. Impeachment and the trial could take months while sucking all the air out of the campaign. And who is to say that the Senate would be willing to convict. It is a political gambit by the Dems who apparently have already conceded the election. Otherwise they should be putting their eggs into that basket.

Trump is corrupt and guilty of a lot of impeachable offenses, but the Dems have decided to go with this one. Why? Could it be that their own houses are just as dirty with corruption? When Hillary was allowed to walk despite committing what I believed to be a serious breach of national security through the use of her private server, the last possible shred moral high ground was lost.

I do not like the precedent that this appears to be setting in which every President from now on may be subject to a witch hunt like Russiagate, and failing that, the country will be subjected to impeachment which will appear to be based upon politics. We need to hold all our elected officials to the same high standard. So I am for impeaching Trump over illegal wars or the emoluments clause. But based upon the information we have, this will look very petty in the eyes of the public which is opposed to impeachment by a solid majority and will most likely be a big loser for the Dems.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

gulfgal98's picture

@gulfgal98 This is starting to look bad for Trump. An audio has come out in which he intimates what he wishes would happen to the whistleblower.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Anja Geitz's picture

@gulfgal98

that he meant he wished he could fatally punish the person who passed on the information to the whistleblower, but what he actually said was historically correct. Unfortunately for Trump, when he thinks he's being "sly" he's really more like an oncoming train.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

snoopydawg's picture

@gulfgal98

But the NYS is reporting that the whistleblower is CIA. If that is true then it just seems more of Russia Gate and throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks.

So Trump said he remembers how spies were treated here once? I'm not going to get bent over this after Obama bragged that he was good at killing with his targeted drone program. And say that an American kid should have picked a better father after he killed him by dropping a bomb on him. Just saying...

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The donor class doesn’t want it, and Americans elect the bribed. So suck it up.

Humans must not submit to policing by machine.

WaterLily's picture

@snoopydawg Asking aloud if we couldn't just drone Assange.

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gulfgal98's picture

@gulfgal98 In this video, Jimmy and Aaron give us excellent reasons of why impeaching Trump is such a bad idea. The first part of the video is an analysis of what we know right now and how flimsy the evidence appears to be.

Since the video is quite long, I am directing you to where Aaron really sums up why he (and I) believe that impeachment is such a horrible idea. Personally, I think Pelosi knows this, but the Democrats have backed themselves into a corner and she saw she was losing control of her caucus.

Go to 38:30 mark in the video. Jimmy gives his opinion and then Aaron Mate does a terrific job with his analysis and opinion.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Anja Geitz's picture

@gulfgal98

He succintly sums up the establishment position after the Dems lost the 2016 election, and why this "Ukraine gate" is more of the same. Especially agreed with his comment about how CIA figures have now become the "heroes" as we get behind jingoistic saber rattling. It's unfuckingbelievable what happened to the Democratic Party.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

No quid pro quo which is what people say he did. Nowhere does he say that "if you look into what ByeDone did with the prosecutor then I'll finally let the weapons come to you."

You mean he didn't explicitly announce it was a crime?
Well, I'm sure that you and I would get the same assumption of innocence if we were similarly accused of corruption, right?
Oh wait. I meant the opposite. Under similar circumstances you and I would never even make it to a trial if the DA was holding this much evidence.

You've been reading right-wing blogs too much.

As for Trump's base, who cares? His base is a cult.

If you want to disagree with the media about something, it's the Biden didn't do anything wrong.

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Wally's picture

@gjohnsit

The US has been economically blackmailing and variously armtwisting foreign countries longer than I've been alive (I'm 39 like Jack Benny ... but not dead yet).

We should all know the intricacies of Shock Doctrine by now (Thank you Naomi Klein!).

They're ALL guilty af.

But here's the skinny:

The bad news, for Biden, is that the false nature of the allegation about his role in Ukraine won’t stop Trump and his supporters from treating it like a major scandal, hoping to tarnish the Democrat currently leading the race to face him in the 2020 election. And since the setting for the supposed scandal is a part of the world few Americans have much knowledge of, it could be as hard to refute in the minds of voters as the attack on John Kerry’s Vietnam War record launched by the Swift Boat Veterans in 2004, or the weapons-grade innuendo about Hillary Clinton’s role in Benghazi generated by House Republicans.

As Dan Pfeiffer, a former communications director for President Barack Obama, explained on a recent episode of “Pod Save America” flooding the internet with baseless conspiracy theories can, unfortunately, be good politics. “This is how Trump won,” Pfeiffer said. “Which is: feed conspiracy theories to the base and just throw so much shit around that the folks in the middle say, ‘Well, it’s all confusing, I don’t know who’s right, I don’t have really any way of finding out — certainly the media isn’t capable of telling me — so I’m going to default to my natural expectations which is, both sides are corrupt liars.'”

“And when the public thinks that both sides are corrupt liars,” Pfeiffer added, “that inures to the advantage of the corrupt liar in the race.”

-- Robert Mackey in the Intercept

While I disagree with the above assessment that allegations about Biden are necessarily false and that Trump is the only "corrupt liar," it should be obvious that this shitshow is going to help Trump and bury Biden.

How much did the Democratic Party raise yesterday? Anybody know?

Quid Pro Quo? Proving it will be difficult if at all possible. But one thing is sure: Zelensky has Trump's back. I would be shitting bricks if I was this or that Democrat involved in going to Ukraine for the HerHeinous campaign. A side order of Chalupas anyone?

But I worry that it will all help Warren and not Bernie as the MSM kicks into high gear with Plan B (Warren). Pelosi et al handed Biden to Trump on a silver platter and he's relishing the opportunity to savage him (go look at Trump's twitter).

I don't know if Bernie can wizard his way around and through all this bullshit but whatever, I'm loyal.

Edits/ tweeked this and that.

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@Wally

it should be obvious that this shitshow is going to help Trump and bury Biden.

I'm hoping it buries Biden. It's not certain.

As for help Trump, did the Watergate investigation help Nixon?

Quid Pro Quo? Proving it will be difficult if at all possible.

Difficult, yes. Impossible, no.
But the transcript justified the investigation, and that will include his taxes.
The Senate won't convict him no matter what.

But one thing is sure: Zelensky has Trump's back.

I totally disagree. Zelensky wants no part of this at all.

Update: I just found this.

CNN anchor Chris Cuomo made a rare concession on Wednesday night when he said former Vice President Joe Biden "absolutely" engaged in a quid pro quo with Ukraine but not for his "personal advantage."

During a fiery debate with President Trump's personal lawyer Jay Sekulow, Cuomo argued that a quid pro quo wasn't "necessary for an abuse of power."

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@gjohnsit latest on Trump-Ukraine, Joe Biden had been doing a good job of damaging his candidacy, some of it of course not his fault owing to his mental condition. The latest scandal won't help him, and as someone here noted, he is not in such condition as to be able to effectively avoid the taint.

Agree too on Zelensky. If U-gate looks like it will sink or badly damage Donald, Z will not go along for the ride playing a version of Trump's Roy Cohn.

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Wally's picture

@gjohnsit

As for help Trump, did the Watergate investigation help Nixon?

Nixon situtation =/= Trump situtation. Not even close.

Zelensky wants no part of this at all.

Zelensky didn't have to but okayed release of the transcript or whatever it is. He also showed up at Trump's side and said exactly what Trump needed him to say. Sure sounded like a toady to Trump to me. Not to mention he is more articulate in English than Trump.

CNN anchor Chris Cuomo made a rare concession on Wednesday night when he said former Vice President Joe Biden "absolutely" engaged in a quid pro quo with Ukraine but not for his "personal advantage."
During a fiery debate with President Trump's personal lawyer Jay Sekulow, Cuomo argued that a quid pro quo wasn't "necessary for an abuse of power."

Hey, Trump just wants the truth to come out/snark. Not for his personal advantage/snark. While I think Biden was pushing as directed by Obama for the removal of the prosecutor for the right reasons (he was dragging his feet on corruption investigations), Biden may also have privately sought to ensure that his son didn't subsequently caught up in the mess. In any event, Biden Junior made out like a bandit. Voters see that.

But really, Obama was armtwisting galore as were his cohorts in the IMF and the World Bank to get their way all over the globe. Pack 'em all off to jail as far as I'm concerned. How about golf at Guantanamo?

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@Wally

Nixon situtation =/= Trump situtation. Not even close.

It's closer to Watergate than it is Whitewater for a very easy to understand reason:

The Clinton investigation was taking a messy situation and various baseless rumors and seeing if someone/anyone had committed a crime. It was a fishing expedition by definition. Eventually all they got was lying about blowjobs.
That's why the Clinton impeachment didn't hurt the Dems.

That's nothing like the situation today.

What we have today is known dirty politics, and the only question was if laws were broken in the process.
The investigation is already justified, unlike Whitewater.
That's why the impeachment investigation will not do Trump any favors.

Sure, Trump's base will get excited, but his base was going to do that anyway.

Zelensky didn't have to but okayed release of the transcript or whatever it is. He also showed up at Trump's side and said exactly what Trump needed him to say. Sure sounded like a toady to Trump to me.

I don't think Zelensky had anything to do with releasing the transcript.
He's a newly elected leader of a shaky country. He's doing a highwire act.
This is the very last thing he wants to be involved in. Zelensky has enough things on his plate.

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Wally's picture

@gjohnsit

There's no cloak and dagger spy stuff. A cover up, maybe. Not sure what's being covered up since we have the transcript or whatever it is. I can't imagine people watching hour after hour of testimony like during Watergate times. I know I'm tired of it already especially after Russiagate. I mean even compared to Russiagate, Ukrainegate, really? I'm not the least bit interested in dredging up Whitewater and comparing blowjobs or whatever to anything. If the Dems want to investigate Blackwater, sure, I'm 1n.

I don't think Zelensky had anything to do with releasing the transcript.
He's a newly elected leader of a shaky country. He's doing a highwire act.
This is the very last thing he wants to be involved in. Zelensky has enough things on his plate.

Trump asked Zelensky's permission to release it. If it's the last thing he should be doing, he shouldn't have given the go ahead. And he shouldn't have appeared for a press conference with Trump, saying everything Trump needed him to say.

Yea, he's playing a dangerous game and he wants maybe more than anything else US money and to make sure the US has his back if the shit hits the fan in eastern Ukraine again. Why wouldn't he do all he can to help out Trump?

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Alligator Ed's picture

@gjohnsit don't be shocked when it turns out the pratfalls are Democratic. Many Trump haters oppose impeachment, as do I. Trump is horrible but the Dems are worse. Trump has been running the country with one hand tied behind his back since before day one. Yet, he is fighting off the Dems like a teenager swatting toddlers away from his beach blanket. Right wing talking point or not, asking a foreign leader to investigate election Interference in 2016 is exactly in line with Rod Rosenstein's first epistle to the Swan authorizing an exorcism from the body politic of any election interference by Russia. Having put el Trumpo through a 22 month wringer, it is correct to state "turn about is fair play". Caveat Dems don't play fair--and Trump doesn't play. He is the modern Thor the Thunder God.

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@Alligator Ed soft, weak, polite to a fault, ineffective, Sanforized and corporatized to a large extent. But not exactly in the conman and criminal category as Trump. Not even close.

Trump is probably worse than Nixon. And Dick was about to go down officially I think on 3 counts of impeachment. Donald is likely good for 5-8 counts -- if Dems don't screw up by limiting the scope of their impeachment inquiry solely to U-gate. Though the latter appears to be impeachment material enough.

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@Alligator Ed

He is the modern Thor the Thunder God.

If you say so

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Wally's picture

@Alligator Ed

Maybe if Rowdy Roddy Piper (RIP) played Trump as Thor the Thunder God in a movie.

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@Wally

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Wally's picture

@gjohnsit

Of course, I also liked Snakes on a Plane.

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@Wally

But They Live had a political message. Even a class war message. in 1988!

Have you seen Army of Darkness and Big Trouble in Little China?

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Wally's picture

@gjohnsit

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Centaurea's picture

@gjohnsit

I know I'm coming in late with this comment, but remember that Nixon resigned because it was clear that he was going to be impeached and probably convicted. In other words, he had lost the support of many Republicans in the House and Senate.

He also had lost the support of the American public, including Republican-identifying voters. Times were very different back then, in terms of politics as well as the American psyche.

It may end up the same way for Trump, but it may not. At present, he still seems to have the support of his base among the populace. Nixon's back was to the wall. I wonder what it would take to get Trump in the same position?

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"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi

"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone

@Centaurea by the time of the House Judiciary hearing in the summer of 74 that he was going to be impeached in the House; he could watch the hearings like anyone else.

He was worried about the senate. The main message he got from that small contingent of R leaders who visited him a few days before his resignation was that he no longer had sufficient support in the senate to avoid conviction.

RE public support for impeachment, it's interesting that a majority of the public didn't support it until the final few months of the process. This was after some 16 months of revealing televised senate hearings and the Saturday Night Massacre and other developments. Interesting too that public support topped out at only 57% -- I would have thought it was much higher, as only roughly 28% of the public supported Nixon staying in office by the end. (see bottom of this thread, link to The Humanist Report video, about 9'40" mark)

Note that despite a lack of majority public support and of course inadequate support for impeachment in the senate, the congressional inquiry and impeachment process went forward for many months without Dem handwringing over whether they were doing the right thing. The only doubts I'm aware of occurred after the first few months of the select senate committee inquiry, when the chief counsel Sam Dash and others became concerned that public opinion didn't seem to be moving, as they were bringing in one low-level no-name Nixon WH staffer after another for questioning. Then came the major breakthrough of the WH tapes discovery, Alexander Butterfield saving the day.

Great credit goes to the brilliant strategy by MajLdr Mike Mansfield for carefully setting up the select senate committee, after getting much important info on W-gate from Ted Kennedy and his investigator, the private investigation few are aware of. And in the House a year later, they made a wise decision not to severely limit the focus of their inquiry -- unlike what may be happening today, with Pelosi apparently preferring a narrow Ukraine focus.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@gjohnsit

Not to mention the media, is a million miles away from the political zeitgeist of 1973. So, no, I don't think a watergate comparison is very useful. Regardless, I think Trump is going to beat Biden over the head with the comment he made about withholding money from the Ukraine just like he browbeat Hillary over the Clinton Foundation. And while he's doing that, half of the country is going to see the "impeachment investigation" for exactly what it is, insider partisan masturbating.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

@gjohnsit
help investigating an alleged crime, if the alleged criminal is a relative or associate of one of your political opponents?

Here's the difference between you or me having such a conversation, versus Trump having such a conversation: It's Trump's job to be soliciting the Ukrainian government's help. Does that mean it isn't politically motivated? Of course not -- it's certainly politically motivated, just as Obama's motivation for prosecuting Bush people for torture and other war crimes would have been political (which is, we presume, exactly why it didn't happen -- too many of his own side would have been swept away in that judicial tide).

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

@UntimelyRippd from today

Donald Trump says that his July 25 phone call with the president of Ukraine was “perfect.” But it so alarmed White House and administration officials that they allegedly concealed records of the conversation.

An extraordinary whistle-blower’s complaint made public on Thursday, deemed “credible” by the inspector general for the U.S. intelligence community, claims that White House officials “were deeply disturbed” by the call and attempted to “lock down” a transcript by placing it in a system normally used for sensitive classified information.
...
Taken together, the events suggest that White House officials feared the appearance of a quid pro quo when the president asked Zelenskiy to investigate Ukraine’s role in a hack of Democratic e-mails in 2016, as well as the man who at the time was the Democratic front-runner to challenge Trump’s re-election. Democrats have been quick to invoke the language of Watergate, with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi calling the Trump administration’s actions a “cover-up” on Thursday.

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Alligator Ed's picture

@gjohnsit A perfectly impartial non-anti-Trump outlet which of course equates almost anything Trump does with political corruption (they're only partially correct there). So asking for assurance that Ukraine is looking into what is most certainly a Biden quid pro quo is deemed political to shield Hunter. So, Tovarisch, is asking a foreign power to look into PAST election interference unreasonable. Where does justice begin? Rhetorical question I suppose, but really the inquiry is even more substantiated by currently available evidence than all of Russiagate. Biden is, or now was, a presidential contender for 2020. Guarantee you, gj, that Biden gets lots of serious heat from Trump, even after he leaves the presidential primary. Biden will be hoisted one a pole as a sign of Democrat corruption--guilt by association perhaps--but guilt all the same.

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@Alligator Ed

Wow, you cited Bloomberg
A perfectly impartial non-anti-Trump outlet which of course equates almost anything Trump does with political corruption (they're only partially correct there).

You think a conservative, pro-corporate Bloomberg is all-in against Trump?
Exactly what sources have you been reading. I'm honestly seriously concerned that someone/something is poisoning your mind.

BTW, I reference Bloomberg all the time.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@gjohnsit

You not only have told someone once to "fuck off" but you are now telling a poster here they are losing their mind, prompting me to ask: have you received any messages from moderators here about your tone?

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

@Anja Geitz

you are now telling a poster here they are losing their mind

I said: "I'm honestly seriously concerned that someone/something is poisoning your mind."
Which has a whole different meaning.
However, if that meaning didn't come across to Alligator Ed, I would like to apologize to him for any misunderstanding.

As for this:

You not only have told someone once to "fuck off"

I don't apologize for that AT ALL.
In case you've forgotten, the comment I replied to had such gems as:

You're sounding a lot like Armando on a bad hair day...
[You] take a tone of pompous self-righteous disrespect while assuming for himself the role of arbiter of all that is worthy for consideration...
who the fuck are you to claim a monopoly on reality?

So, yeh. Fuck Off was entirely appropriate.

But to answer your question, JtC and I had a conversation about the whole episode offline and agreed that the site could do without the ugliness.

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@gjohnsit

White House officials feared the appearance of a quid pro quo

No President is ever going to be removed from office over the "appearance" of a quid pro quo.

For that matter, no President is ever going to be removed from office for refusing to honor a Congressional subpoena demanding his income tax returns, regardless of the circumstances.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

snoopydawg's picture

@gjohnsit

before the call according to Chris Stewart and other reports? Months before the call.

“But are you going to convince the American people that that’s an impeachable offense when he asks for nothing in return, he extends nothing in return?”

Stewart said discussions between the administration and members of Congress about withholding the aid predated the phone call by months. He said Trump’s threat of withholding military aid was to get the European nations on board, specifically Germany, to help Ukraine as they had promised.

“He was frustrated by that,” Stewart said.

I have been asking this same question:

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., launched a formal impeachment inquiry Tuesday that she said would focus on whether Trump abused his presidential powers and sought help from Ukraine to undermine Democratic foe Joe Biden and help his own re-election. Pelosi said such action would be a “betrayal of his oath of office.”

How could she possibly know that?” Stewart said. “She convicted him before she even held the first hearing on this issue.

The whistleblower complaint is pure hearsay btw. He apparently was told by two unnamed sources in the WH so he didn't even hear what Trump said during the call. Why isn't congress demanding the WB's two unnamed sources to come to testify? Hearsay evidence is usually not allowed in court, but the country is treating this guy's interpretations of what was said as

If you want to disagree with the media about something, it's the Biden didn't do anything wrong.

Apparently you haven't read any of my comments on ByeDone if you don't know where I stand on that. Which I alluded to in my comment that asks how people would react if Trump overthrew Madura and let his kids be on the energy boards afterwards.

I think there are other valid reasons to impeach Trump, but Nancy once again is not going to allow that. And she has decided that it's only this Ukraine farce that she is going to allow to go forward. Oh sure she will let the 6 other investigations go forward, but I doubt she will bring that info into her hearings. She said that Nadler should have charged Lewandowsky (sp) with contempt and yet that hasn't happened. Interesting.... especially if the house goes on a two week recess starting this Friday. If Pelosi think this will be the issue to impeach Trump on then I'd think she would cancel it. If not..... kabuki. IMO.

As the tweet I posted in my essay says:

Lie the nation into killing hundreds of thousands of civilians and it’s, “a waste of time.”

But commit partisan tomfoolery? Game on!

Exactly.

Trump will be removed from office the minute he isn't helpful for the donor class to get their agendas passed. Until then...

On the other hand it's nice to see the democrats finding a whistleblower that they want to protect unlike what happened to them during Obama's tenure.

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The donor class doesn’t want it, and Americans elect the bribed. So suck it up.

Humans must not submit to policing by machine.

@snoopydawg military aid being on hold before the phone call. True or at the very least known prior to this latest Impeachment spin fest. There is an article on Global Research by Andrew Korybko with a couple of links talking about how the Pentagon wanted the 250M to go forward, that link is from Sputnik. Then another link to an article about a new détente with Russia which links to something called Oneworld Global Think Tank. (I cannot figure out how to post a link, sorry but I am tech challenged here, but it's worth reading). The article by Korybko mentions that to even discuss any kind of détente with Russia is now "off limits" in the US so it's not surprising, although the Dims could make hay out of détente if they wanted to I suppose. But to go there might expose much more than Trump's supposed collusion with Russia so I guess they'll not talk about that.

I have not yet read the transcript but as others mention below even that might be another head fake by the CIA for all we know. While I personally would love to see the Orange Beast go down I don't think it will happen and if it does it will not change one damned thing in this country for the rest of us. To me it's just theater to gin up outrage and distraction, although I would love to be wrong. And with Impeachment comes Mike Pence, hardly comforting to think about.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

snoopydawg's picture

@lizzyh7

According to this article it was someone from it. An ex CIA person said that he should have gone to congress with it and it looks like it was written by someone in the intelligence agencies. Not sure how much weight to give it since it uses anonymous sources. I'll look at the article you suggested soon.

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The donor class doesn’t want it, and Americans elect the bribed. So suck it up.

Humans must not submit to policing by machine.

making me like the average American, so I can try to emulate the average American's response:
"So Trump tried to get the president of the Ukraine, who ran on an anti corruption platform, to investigate Biden's son. Meanwhile, Biden bragged how he got the Ukrainian Nazis to fire a prosecutor who was investigating Biden's son. Gee, looks like those damn Democrats are at it again."

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On to Biden since 1973

Alligator Ed's picture

@doh1304 Asking a politician (Zelensky) to keep a campaign pledge (eliminate corruption) is now considered treason by the Dims. Of course, if they were to carry through with that line of argument, HRC and Obomber would be having neck measurements taken by Gitmo's perfect tailors.

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edg's picture

Sure, that's a given. Cunning. Sly. But not a genius, evil or otherwise. But did Trump actually throw Pence under the bus or did he make a preemptive strike, maybe at Pence's suggestion, to nullify the inevitable Democratic screeching about Pence's calls to Ukraine? Or is it all just a form of "but Johnny did it, too!!" dilution?

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Alligator Ed's picture

@edg The whistleblower trap is a perfect example. Of course Trump has transcript's of Pence's phone calls--all of them. He isn't as dumb as most want to believe (and I am not one of them). He knows that Pence's phone calls were, to use his phrase"perfect". But he wants the Dems salivating over a chance to bite Pence. Maybe Nancy will consider just how well the Dems fared with this whistleblower farce. One doesn't need to follow politics much to realize that the Dems have no platform except Orange Man Bad. And they look like complete fools. Jerry Nadler is the best dead pan comedian alive except he doesn't realize how funny he is.

Dems: you fools, keep falling for Trump's dangles like a starved dog going after a sliver of red meat. That meat is spiked, morons.

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WoodsDweller's picture

rather, a psychopath who struggles to wear his shoes on the correct feet.

Trump describes this call as "perfect" because he thinks by not mentioning the military aid in the call he has masterfully gotten his point across without incriminating himself. Unfortunately, "do us a favor, investigate this guy (who happens to be my political opponent)" does not require a quid pro quo. It's soliciting something of value from a foreigner (a government in this case) to help your campaign. That's a stand alone crime, doesn't require anything else, we have all the evidence we need, open and shut case, impeachment and removal from office by the end of next week (of course, the Senate won't do that), US Marshals standing by to slap the cuffs on him. And Trump released the evidence because he's an idiot who thinks he committed the perfect crime and it's safe to brag about it.

The upside for us is that this will trigger the Republican campaign against Biden now rather than after he is the nominee. In an effort to deflect from El Trumpo they'll go all out against Biden immediately. Biden is in no condition to fend off the onslaught, he'll crumble. Good news for the remaining Democratic candidates as Biden's supporters find new homes.

Fund raising? Who cares? If it wasn't this they would make up some other nonsense to raise funds from.

The real challenge is focus. We can't let this circus derail discussions of policy. Only one candidate has the discipline to bring every discussion back to policy.

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"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone

@WoodsDweller I wouldn't be too sure about safety in the Senate. They may act like a bunch of trump sycophants but if he becomes a pariah and looks like he might taint them they'll give him what Caesar got. And they'll do it with relish: folks like that will take a light of anise with a smile on their face but they neither forget nor forgive when the time comes that they can settle the settle the score.

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@MinuteMan

Unfortunately, "do us a favor, investigate this guy (who happens to be my political opponent)" does not require a quid pro quo. It's soliciting something of value from a foreigner (a government in this case) to help your campaign. That's a stand alone crime, doesn't require anything else,

And in any case, the qpq seems implied in Trump's conversation, in a reasonable reading of the written notes.

Agree about Biden. He will be targeted by the Trump WH and Rs as doing the same thing with that Ukr prosecutor. As Trump's atty Jay Sekelow attempted to do last night on CNN. His mental decline is also beginning to be the subject of MSM attention, although still somewhat indirectly and politely.

Fund raising? Who cares? If it wasn't this they would make up some other nonsense to raise funds from.

Yep. Maybe another horde of thousands of dangerous illegals approaching our southern border. Or Demonrat big city mayors turning our formerly pristine cities into filty, dangerous slums for the homeless.

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@wokkamile
is the President's job.

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

@The Voice In the Wilderness is so concerned about corruption in Ukraine. That at least was the first rationale he offered.

Makes for a charming story.

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@wokkamile
Biden committed a crime by his very words. He used his influence and official position's control to force someone to be fired to benifit his family. Corruption, pure and simple.

ask yourself this, "If it was A Republican instead of Biden and Obama instead of Trump, would you feel the same way?"
I can honestly say "Yes". Can you?

Blatant partisan impeachment can only aide the Republicans. Just like the laughable rape charges against Kavanaugh ensured that he would be seated on the Supreme Court.

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

@The Voice In the Wilderness story that Trump, of all people, was concerned about gov't officials misdeeds in the US.

Another charming story.

Had nothing to do with Trump using his gov't standing to achieve political advantage in an election. Or did u just forget to mention that part?

As for the U prosecutor, my understanding is he was widely considered corrupt, not just within Ukraine. And the investigation of the company Hunter ended up working for on its board began before Hunter arrived, and was "dormant" by the time of the prosecutor's firing, and had nothing to do with any corrupt activities by the Hunter. This is not to say that at the very least there isn't some basic appearance of impropriety by Joe Biden. He will have some further explaining to do on the campaign trail and it's all not going to help his nom chances. Ditto for an apparently very lucrative deal the firm he was working for got from China suddenly after the Bidens visited there.

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@wokkamile
What matters is that the "cleaning up corruption" narrative is, in fact, unimpeachable. Heh.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

@UntimelyRippd wanted to go after corruption.

Another charming tale.

Funny thing too. Apparently Donald got the word that excuse wouldn't fly. The next day, and subsequently, he switched rationales to the "NATO countries not paying enough to Ukraine" excuse.

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snoopydawg's picture

@wokkamile

"NATO countries not paying enough to Ukraine" excuse.

Trump put the weapons on hold months before because he did want NATO countries to pay more than they were in Ukraine. Months before that phone call. Months as I and others here have stated.

But one reason he is interested in Ukraine is to see what role they played during the election. I just posted an essay on this that was written two years ago. Hillary was in Ukraine digging dirt up on Trump just like she accused him of doing when that meeting at Trump towers. This was a setup by the Fusion GPS' head and the woman who was involved had dinner with him right after the meeting.

Many of us have written about the inns and outs of Russia Gate since it started and before you joined. You can browse through them here if you are interested.

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The donor class doesn’t want it, and Americans elect the bribed. So suck it up.

Humans must not submit to policing by machine.

snoopydawg's picture

@wokkamile

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/09/trump-pushed-ukraines-president-to...

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The donor class doesn’t want it, and Americans elect the bribed. So suck it up.

Humans must not submit to policing by machine.

@The Voice In the Wilderness

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

@MinuteMan Trump's base are a bunch of cultish pod people who will march in lockstep behind him no matter what.

As for elected Rs, they have their self-preservation to consider. If this one continues to gain momentum and Ds don't screw it up, it could be the thing that either takes Donald down or makes him badly damaged goods going into the next election. R pols won't want to be seen carrying his water.

In Watergate, there was no senate 2/3ds for conviction at the outset of either the Senate or House hearings. It took time to develop and present the evidence and bring the people along, then of course was the smoking gun tape towards the end, which finally forced the hand of enough reluctant Rs to make impeachment and conviction a certainty.

The same could happen, though I wouldn't bet a lot on it at this time. I'm already surprised to see a few congressional Rs speaking publicly about their concern over this Trump abuse of power. No one knows how this is going to play out and there will likely be a few surprises in store along the way.

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@wokkamile link

"Ukrainian officials were asking for a meeting with Trump for along time. As I remember, it was a clear fact that Trump wants to meet only if Biden case will be included,” said Serhiy Leshchenko, an anti-corruption advocate and former member of Ukraine's Parliament, who had been a former adviser to Zelenskiy but has recently been distanced from the administration. "This issue was raised many times. I know that Ukrainian officials understood."

Asked if it had been understood as a condition, Leshchenko said, "Yes."

Leshchenko is a respected anti-corruption campaigner who has sometimes been at the center of the saga in Ukraine involving Trump's demands that Biden be investigated. As a journalist and MP in 2016 he helped publish secret accounts logs showing allegedly illegal payments from the former president of Ukraine's political party and that included the name of Trump's then-campaign manger Paul Manafort. After the logs' existence were reported, Manafort stepped down as campaign manager. Recently, Giuliani has attacked him over his role in that incident and sought to suggest he helped set off the Russia investigation into Trump.

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Wally's picture

@gjohnsit

Leshchenko on Thursday sought to back track his comments, telling ABC News that he did not know if officials had viewed discussing Biden as a precondition for a meeting and that he had meant it was just obvious that Trump had wanted to talk about it.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@wokkamile

I don't know what I'd have to talk about at dinner parties.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

@wokkamile
for Pelosi's base.

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

@The Voice In the Wilderness so many comments here taking basically the pro-Trump position, almost parroting WH talking points on this latest Trump scandal.

Progressives for Donald!

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@wokkamile Not really, but I can see why you might like to think that. After all, it's such a cheap and easy smear, isn't it? How about Putin Puppet as well?

What we ARE concerned about, rightly so to my mind even in the fully corrupt USA of today, is Impeachment on bullshit lies while allowing true corruption to continue on as usual. And of COURSE there is that pesky elephant in the room that Impeachment means Mike Pence, how does that help anyone in this country? No one seems to want to talk about that, as if somehow, someway a Democrat will just magically ride to the rescue and save America from itself once that Orange Beast is gone. IF a Democrat gets to POTUS out of this fucking mess it'll be Nancy Pelosi - will THAT help ordinary people? Will that bring back the "rule of law" to this lawless country? And of course the CIA et al will help in that little endeavor, right? Yeah, sure.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

Alligator Ed's picture

@WoodsDweller Especially, if as some surmise, Michelle will be drafted to rescue the party from ByeDone and Pocahontas. The Repugnants have been assembling lots of anti-Obama stuff linking him to corruption in attacking the Trump presidency through illegal surveillance. Don't forget the January 19th meeting in the WH, in which BHO, Byedone, Comey and others laid out the future course of the coup.

Michelle will be an easy target due to her prolific virtue-signaling. The wife of the No Scandal President will be splattered with crap coming the way of her husband.

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@Alligator Ed

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

WoodsDweller's picture

Reading it now.

EDIT: I read through it. New names that don't mean anything to me. Some discussion of Guiliani. Confirms what we've been hearing with a more complete timeline. Some technical stuff about storing the transcript on the wrong secure computer. I didn't see any new revelations.

https://www.scribd.com/document/427563128/Whistleblower-Complaint#from_e...

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"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone

@WoodsDweller stuff re a "standalone" secret server into which transcripts of Trump's private phone conversations with Z were placed -- according to the whistleblower author, for political and not legitimate nat'l security purposes. (see pg 8 per yr link)

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WoodsDweller's picture

@wokkamile
They may try to build a cover up charge over that sort of thing. More interestingly, maybe they can subpoena that very classified machine somehow and uncover some other juicy stuff. Not sure if that could work.

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"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone

@WoodsDweller at cbsnews.com including w-blower complaint.

The White House officials who told me [whistleblower] this information were deeply disturbed by what had transpired in the phone call. They told me that there was already a 'discussion ongoing' with White House lawyers about how to treat the call because of the likelihood, in the officials' retelling, that they had witnessed the President abuse his office for personal gain.
A summary of the call was released by the Justice Department Thursday. This is what the whistleblower wrote about the call:

Multiple White House officials with direct knowledge of the call informed that, after an initial exchange of pleasantries, the President used the remainder of the call to advance his personal interests. Namely, he sought to pressure the Ukrainian leader to take actions to help the President's 2020 reelection bid. According to the White House officials who had direct knowledge of the call, the President pressured Mr. Zelenski to...:

initiate or continue an investigation into the activities of former Vice President Joseph Biden and his son, Hunter Biden;
assist in purportedly uncovering that allegations of Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election originated in Ukraine, with a specific request that the Ukrainian leader locate and turn over servers used by the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and examined by the U.S. cyber security firm Crowdstrike, which initially reported that Russian hackers had penetrated the DNC's networks in 2016; and
meet or speak with two people the President named explicitly as his personal envoys on these matters, Mr. Giuliani and Attorney General Barr, to whom the President referred multiple times in tandem.

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@wokkamile

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

@The Voice In the Wilderness like placing into a special pre-established nat'l security server -- so not private to Trump, unlike Hillary's -- to which presumably only security-cleared NS types would have access, is my guess. A way of hiding the politically-sensitive and damaging information.

Would this fall under Abuse of Power or Obstruction of Justice??

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@wokkamile

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

edg's picture

@wokkamile

They desperately need your insider information proving that Trump himself ordered the transcript placed on the secure server. Nancy awaits your call.

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One politician threatens to withhold military aid pending an investigation into another politician threatening to withhold military aid pending the termination of an investigation. Wait, why are we giving Ukraine military aid again?

I'm disappointed that Tulsi hasn't picked up on this aspect of the latest hullabaloo. Or is what has happened in Ukraine (regime change, support for neoNazis, military support) one of the "good" things the U.S. does?

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@tle than disappointed with Tulsi yesterday in her interview on Rising. One of the hosts asked her straight out, Is there ANYTHING this president could do which would cause you to support impeachment? Tulsi evaded the question, then finished by reiterating how the People should be the ones to decide these things in an election, which means her answer is No.

This incredibly casual attitude about presidential misconduct and abuse of power just completely writes out the impeachment section of the Constitution. It's nearly a deal breaker for me. I will stop funding her, but will wait until the next debate to decide whether to completely de-list her.

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Alligator Ed's picture

@wokkamile not cowardly. I saw that interview on Rising and felt that she was alluding the current situation including the mounds of recklessly false charges (Russiagate, obstructiongate, for starters), as the reason for discounting whether impeachment should be on the table --for the charges currently specified by Nadler, Nancy et. al. She knows they're insufficient to merit what will be another Democratic face-losing debacle. I didn't think her response applied to possible future misdeeds.

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orlbucfan's picture

@Alligator Ed neither does Buttagag, Warren, Harris, Yang (a real joke), etc., etc. She also is a Hindu Fundie--any religious Fundie is poison as far as I'm concerned!

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Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.

Anja Geitz's picture

@orlbucfan

What would that exactly look like?

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

@Anja Geitz

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

@orlbucfan b/c Tulsi said the other day when asked about Warren that she isn't sure EW has the experience necessary to be CinC. Tulsi of course does, implicitly, note that she is ready, what with her military experience.

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Or is that the opposition and media are so bad.

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@MrWebster @MrWebster I’ve long thought Trump happened because his opponents, in the Republican primary, in the Democrats, practically trip over themselves with unforced error after error. Add into it a media who loves the ratings, and there you go.

Edit to add: the lack of moral clarity of his opposition (such as this current frakas) has been as much of a help to him as anything, though I don’t think it’s mentioned as much.

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Just another Bozo on the bus.

the one you should be investigating."

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this Trump-Zelensky "transcript". It apparently doesn't come from a recorded conversation, so cannot be considered a transcript as we normally understand it. I understand what happens is there is usually at least one nat'l security staffer listening in on the conversation, who takes notes of what's said. That's it.

However, this transcript reads like it is word-for-word from a recording and not from quickly written summarizing notes.

Also, note the ellipses ... and where they occur in the transcript, often at critical points. (h/t Thom Hartmann)

Finally, it's noted that Trump had called Z previously, upon his election. Was the investigation of Biden's son also brought up then by Trump? Where is that transcript?

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@wokkamile

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

@The Voice In the Wilderness Got a cite?

The whistleblower complaint falls under fed statutory guidelines, and must be submitted to appropriate committees of Congress for their review, is my understanding.

Any alleged "diplomatic correspondence" exception would be so broadly interpreted by the WH that they would have redacted everything in the transcript except "Hello" and "Goodbye".

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@wokkamile
Historical. No head of state would talk to POTUS if any schmoe Congressman could subpoena details of diplomatic talks. Diplomacy takes place behind closed doors not in the open.

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

@The Voice In the Wilderness Z gave permission to Donnie to release the transcript of their conversation.

IN any case, all world leaders know their conversations are being monitored and assume it's not strictly mano a mano.

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snoopydawg's picture

@wokkamile

since they probably picked it up when they had their stingway device pointed at the white house in plain site for months. I find it interesting that the media hasn't been all abuzz about Israel spying on Trump after they spent 3 years on the Russia Gate farce. Imagine if it had been Russia that did that. Oh my....

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The donor class doesn’t want it, and Americans elect the bribed. So suck it up.

Humans must not submit to policing by machine.

Anja Geitz's picture

@snoopydawg

What proverbial gun are the Dems going to point to voters head in 2020 if they don't have Trump to point to?

Impeach Trump? Sounds more like they are shooting themselves in the head.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

snoopydawg's picture

@Anja Geitz

Will the democrats just run on their impeaching Trump cuz they don't have anything else to run on?
"Vote for us cuz after 13 years we are finally trying to hold a president accountable."

You mean for what he is doing at the border? For taking money that congress approved for one thing and sending it to his wall? For saying screw the emoluments clause? For neglecting people in PR after the hurricane and not releasing the money?

"No. because he's picking on Joe ByeDone."

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The donor class doesn’t want it, and Americans elect the bribed. So suck it up.

Humans must not submit to policing by machine.

Anja Geitz's picture

@snoopydawg

Good one.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

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