Jimmy Dore interviews Boogaloo Boi Magnus Panvidya

And what an epic Twitter Bomb it generated:

Pro-LGBTQ anti-war activists, or right-wing extremists? Internet goes ballistic after Jimmy Dore interviews ‘Boogaloo’ member', RT.com, 25 Jan, 2021

"Panvidya described himself as an anarchist who had a long history of environmental activism, rejecting the claim that the Boogaloo Bois were white supremacists or right-wing extremists.

He described the movement as a “libertarian/Green Party militia,” arguing that it has been regularly mischaracterized by inaccurate media reports. Known for their Hawaiian shirts, the Boogaloo Bois have been spotted at demonstrations across the United States following the killing of George Floyd at the hands of the Minneapolis Police in May. The group has called for a revolution in the United States, peaceful or otherwise."
.............................
"Unsurprisingly, the discussion split social media, with some insisting that the Bois have been unfairly slandered by the media, while others took the polar opposite view and accused Dore of giving favorable news coverage to “white supremacists.”

However, judging by the responses to Dore’s tweet, the interview was generally not well received. The left-wing commentator was bombarded with mocking memes painting him as naive and gullible.

Some went a step further, accusing Dore of collaborating with “white supremacists” and “Nazis.”

I admit I'm not a fan of Dore's, but I commend him for giving Panvidya a chance to make his case for finding common ground. What else is left in such a divided nation but to listen to one another?

A side note: I tried to listen not watch; still unmanageable, so I advanced the interview until I could see and hear 'Hippie Commune raised Panvidya himself for a few minutes. Panvidya: 'All Wisdoms'?

The floor is yours.

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And I reccomned anyone who claims to be open minded to watch this.
I had conclude one of two things:
One- Panvidya is playing an elaborate ruse on Jimmy and his viewers by grossly misrepresenting the views and positions of the Boogaloo crowd, or
Two- our MSM has lied to us about who the BB crowd is to stoke divisions, and the BB crowd actually stands for a bunch of things that I stand for as well.
Dore and Panvidya surely have policy disagreements in certain areas, but like Jimmy I was floored by the progressive, anti war and anti fascism positions that he held.
After my experiences being a supporter of Obama (hangs his head in shame) and Sanders I have learned to back positions and policies rather than people. If Panvidya is a charlatan, well I appreciate him coming forward and advocating for policies that I agree with.

There is an interesting bit in this video about censorship as well. In the purge going on on social media platforms the Boogaloos have lost their ability to communicate with the public. In this time as they are silenced they can not effectively communicate to the public that they are not who they are accused of being. As a person who has aligned with movements that get attacked by MSM this problem touches close to me.

Dore is brave to have done this.

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wendy davis's picture

@wouldsman

and thanks for adding a few of the Cliffs notes for me. re: Twitter deplatforming, O, what a bird brain I yam! I'd meant to add this...news, but i couldn't find it on RT.com again.

@birdwatch 22h

We believe this approach has the potential to respond quickly when misleading information spreads, adding context that people trust and find valuable.

@birdwatch 22h

We’re building Birdwatch in public. As a community-driven system, it should be shaped by the community. We’ve taken steps to make Birdwatch transparent: Birdwatch data and its algorithms will be shared publicly so people can help improve them.

Learn more: http://twitter.github.io/birdwatch

@birdwatch 22h

Want to help create a better informed world? Sign up and help us shape Birdwatch: https://twitter.com/i/flow/join-birdwatch

Our DMs are open and feel free to @ us any time

Yes, spread the responsibility and blame, you agitprop grifter, Jack!


‘A model worth trying’

Twitter said that it expects to have between 1,000 and 10,000 Birdwatchers who are being admitted on rolling bases and who will not be paid. In the blogpost, vice president of product, Keith Coleman, said that the notes will ultimately be visible to the global Twitter audience. Following the launch, the firm also said that Birdwatch can be found on a separate section of Twitter - twitter.com/i/birdwatch.

Coleman said, “We know there are a number of challenges toward building a community-driven system like this – from making it resistant to manipulation attempts to ensure it isn’t dominated by a simple majority or biased based on its distribution of contributors. We believe this is a model worth trying”.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@wendy davis

received the Iron Cross 2nd class for informing on her father.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

wendy davis's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

whoosh-worthy & excellent riposte. bless your heart.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@wendy davis

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

lotlizard's picture

@wendy davis  
before.

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wendy davis's picture

@lotlizard

it would be superb if you'd expand on this.

but i'm reminded of mike pomeo's versioon of the waPo's PropOrNot:

"Send me your tales of oppression and degradation by your Fascist Diktator rulers in Iran, VZ, cuba, china, and Russia". (one at a time, of course.)

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On one hand, I largely reject the whole "deplatforming" idea.
OTOH, if this guy really does reject racism, homophobia, etc., it does NOT mean that the Boogaloo Boys aren't exactly what their reputation is.

Basically I'm saying that Dore didn't do his homework before interviewing this guy, and that's poor journalism. He accepted what this guy said at face value. Dore didn't ask any tough questions from information he discovered upon doing research.

On an unrelated note, I hope no one missed me. Work + health issues can grab up all of your time.

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wendy davis's picture

@gjohnsit

you're doing better now.

a Q: how do you know dore hadn't done any research on him?

another: this was from the piece at RT.com:

The group has called for a revolution in the United States, peaceful or otherwise.

was that in the interview, or was RT just...painting w/ a MSM brush?

i will say i have a great objection to deplatforming. from rob urie at counterpunch:

"One of the revelations that emerged from the Church Committee hearings in 1975 was that the CIA had spied on and infiltrated anti-war groups to undermine them politically. It was thereafter precluded from acting against U.S. citizens domestically. But a loophole was left open that it could contract with private corporations to perform the domestic political functions it had formerly carried out itself. In 2001, within weeks of 9/11, the Patriot Act codified the CIA’s ability to work with ISPs (Internet Service Providers) and ‘platforms’ like Facebook and Twitter to collect and use nominally private information for internally defined purposes.

From the ACLU:

"One of the revelations that emerged from the Church Committee hearings in 1975 was that the CIA had spied on and infiltrated anti-war groups to undermine them politically. It was thereafter precluded from acting against U.S. citizens domestically. But a loophole was left open that it could contract with private corporations to perform the domestic political functions it had formerly carried out itself. In 2001, within weeks of 9/11, the Patriot Act codified the CIA’s ability to work with ISPs (Internet Service Providers) and ‘platforms’ like Facebook and Twitter to collect and use nominally private information for internally defined purposes.

The Patriot Act, which President-elect Joe Biden claims to have written, both codifies the corporate-state form and gives it an explicitly political character. Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg testified publicly that the company uses data-mining techniques to create political profiles of both its users and people who have never had a relationship with the company. To be clear, Facebook is profiling everyone. Through supplying this information to the American government— the CIA, FBI, NSA, etc., to be used towards political ends, the entire technology industry was made a de facto branch of the Federal government."

nominally private companies, but not really...as they're tools of the Capitalist government the government.

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@wendy davis

Q: how do you know dore hadn't done any research on him?

...and Jimmy didn't ask any tough questions.
Basically when someone presents themselves as something contrary to what their group is known for you should be skeptical (as a journalist). That doesn't mean you shouldn't give them a chance.
But it does mean that you should put them into a position to prove that they are 1) telling the truth, and 2) represent more than just themselves.
To do that you must do research ahead of time.
I studied journalism in college a lifetime ago. If you had done your research then you will have tough questions. Or you suck as a journalist.

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@gjohnsit

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wendy davis's picture

@aliasalias

#KillMeNow. Cliffs Notes?

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wendy davis's picture

@gjohnsit

another Q: how would he have researched him (if the group's been deplatformed)?

inquiring minds and all that rot.

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smiley7's picture

@gjohnsit

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wendy davis's picture

@gjohnsit

but may i submit that dore is billed as a 'comedian', not a 'journalist'? i'll offer that i don't find him a bit funny, but that seems to be a minority opinion here. ; )

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snoopydawg's picture

@wendy davis

the Patriot Act codified the CIA’s ability to work with ISPs (Internet Service Providers) and ‘platforms’ like Facebook and Twitter to collect and use nominally private information for internally defined purposes.

Oh wait......

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It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

wendy davis's picture

@snoopydawg

the Atlantic Council (NATO think tank) 'advises' social media as to 'the Truthiness' of post?

Alpabetic, Inc. parent company of Google suppresses whole nonconformist websites that they like, and also owns: youtube, which can and does remove any channels and videos that argue against the current acceptable beliefs. (i've noticed it most in relation to rebuttal on covid-19 statistics and facts.)

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snoopydawg's picture

@wendy davis

The intelligence agencies have been connected to social media since creation. Hell it’s how most of them got their seed money.

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It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

wendy davis's picture

@snoopydawg

pieces today with quotes from Putin at the WEF in singapore, close to: pfffft to allowing social media companies to control the conversation. yeah.

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snoopydawg's picture

@gjohnsit

Glad you're busy if that is good for you and hope you feel better. I still have a roving stomach bug that bothers me in the am, sour stomach, and when I eat certain food. Yuck it and done and then I feel better. Going on a month.

Here that rents are diving in SF. Is that true?

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It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

@snoopydawg
I think that mostly effects commercial rents and the upper-end of residential rents.

I personally live in a rent-controlled apartment, that's been locked into a lease since 1992. Otherwise I could never have lived in this city.

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@gjohnsit

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@gjohnsit

conspicuous by your absence.

Welcome back.

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The Liberal Moonbat's picture

If somebody says they're not racist, believe them, FFS. The fact that they're being called "liars" is almost a dead-giveaway of what's going on here; these Twits need to read George Lakoff. It is intuitive to believe our political enemies are liars, because they must be because otherwise what they're saying makes no sense - but no, most among them are as sincere as we are.

Today's white supremacists are substantively different from yesterday's, because they have to be. Racism's not cool anymore, yet the real McCoys are open about it. It takes courage and character to go against overwhelming consensus, even when your view is wrong.

The greater danger - the one that enabled the atrocities of the Third Reich/19th-Century imperialists/Salem Witch-Hunters/Conquistadors/Aztecs/Romans/etc etc - still resides within the majority of the populace: Cowardice, conformity, and the idea that the group should override the individual conscience. Evil (at least for most people, I can't speak for guys like Bush or Biden), does not come from the belief that one is somehow entitled to do wrong, but from the belief that one can do no wrong - especially so long as one is acting in the service of some greater authority. It's the Nuremberg Defense, writ large.

As long as we allow majority rule to dictate morality, we are saying that might makes right, because that's all an appeal to numbers can ever be: An appeal not to Ethos, nor to Logos, but to Kratos.

That is the lesson we must learn in our time, not repetitions or do-overs of yesterday's lessons; we clearly still haven't learned it, and we're not out of the woods until we do.

"The great strength of the totalitarian state is that it forces those who fear it to imitate it."
- Adolf Hitler

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In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is declared insane when he speaks of colors.

To paraphrase Jodie Foster: Human is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@The Liberal Moonbat

"The great strength of the totalitarian state is that it forces those who fear it to imitate it."
- Adolf Hitler

I didn't know he was that honest about what a dick he was.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

The Liberal Moonbat's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal Say what you will about white-supremacists, most of them are pretty forthright about their ideology (the irony in this case, of course, being that being dishonest about racism back then meant hiding the extent to which you weren't - e.g. the infamous Fritz Lang story).

I think a better quote for understanding Hitler himself is actually this one:

"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man."
― Thomas Paine

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11 users have voted.

In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is declared insane when he speaks of colors.

To paraphrase Jodie Foster: Human is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@The Liberal Moonbat

I think of Hitler as being *in* the PR business, not outside it.

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5 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

The Liberal Moonbat's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal I tend to think of him as a Johann Sex-Stein who got lucky - the tiny, funny-looking head of a Hobbesian Leviathan who, in another lifetime, would've spent his life shouting at the TV in his undershirt. Had his syphilis not progressed to the "Cursed With Awesome" stage in almost exactly the time window it had, nobody would know his name (except in Ohio!: https://allthatsinteresting.com/pickaway-ohio-hitlers).

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3 users have voted.

In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is declared insane when he speaks of colors.

To paraphrase Jodie Foster: Human is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from.

@The Liberal Moonbat

and relevant comment Moonbat.

As long as we allow majority rule to dictate morality, we are saying that might makes right, because that's all an appeal to numbers can ever be: An appeal not to Ethos, nor to Logos, but to Kratos.

Sounds kind of like an argument for a constitutional republic of limited powers. As opposed to the 'two wolves and one sheep deciding what's for dinner' of pure democracy or autocracy in its various manifestations.

The Hodge twins have a few thoughts on media and white supremacy:

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The Liberal Moonbat's picture

@Blue Republic I had no idea Lemon was such a self-incriminating douche. My mind was cluttering (https://www.orai.com/blog/cluttering-speech/) with responses to what he said in that first clip alone. I had no idea the official corporate media would be so easy to argue with, either. That itself is alarming.

He fucking IS on their side - no, worse, he is on the side that CREATED them!

The real question is: Do the .01% REALIZE they are directly responsible for this? This is EXACTLY how Nazi Germany was created.

These Hodge Twin guys sure are interesting. The fact that you can't tell their ethnicity - and how the PC-racist doctrine informs one how to react to what they're talking about here would hinge hugely on the answer to that (well gee, what if they're mulatto? They're certainly Southern AF) speaks volumes in and of itself. They remind me immediately and in more than one respect of THIS:

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In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is declared insane when he speaks of colors.

To paraphrase Jodie Foster: Human is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from.

@The Liberal Moonbat

That you linked to, Moonbat.

I just discovered the Hodge twins a short while back and must say like their style.
Looks like they have pre-Trump and pre-beard videos up going back to 2013 or so.

(Whatever else you think about the whole MAGA era, it seems pretty clear that it has
made beards great again)

FWIW although light skin and green/blue eyes suggest considerable honky ancestry in the woodpile, they self-identify as black - describe themselves as growing up poor and black in a poor white neighborhood.

Have to be blacker than Shaun King, anyway...

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The Liberal Moonbat's picture

@Blue Republic ...does YouTube normally give you problems? Where do you live? Are you using a real computer or a markofthebeastPhone?

NB: I'm quite certain (let's call it) the Pogonovirus predates MAGA (and I wasn't even aware anyone would particularly connect them):

Pogonovirus4112016.jpg

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In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is declared insane when he speaks of colors.

To paraphrase Jodie Foster: Human is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from.

@The Liberal Moonbat

I'm in Japan, using a real computer, Brave browser. YT usually
works for me, except for their tendency toward stuff like this:

CEO Susan Wojcicki announced in a Jan. 26 blog that it removed over half a million videos under its COVID policies since February. The platform’s COVID-19 Medical Misinformation Policy prohibits “content about COVID-19 that poses a serious risk of egregious harm.”

Removed content primarily includes information contradicting the World Health Organization (WHO) or local health authorities. Therefore, discussions about COVID-19 treatment, prevention, diagnosis or transmission challenging information from these “authoritative sources” has not been allowed on YouTube and will be removed from its platform.

source: Newsbusters

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Dore reaching out to all sorts of people to interview. I want to hear what people have to say.
This second interview needs to be included with the one you posted because it makes Dore's point so perfectly that we need to at the very least, listen to other people even when think we don't like their opinions. I think this is one of Dore's best pieces of work:

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wendy davis's picture

@randtntx

in order that i might glean some Cliffs Notes, but this was largely the sense of the room:

Didn’t Jerry just say the Left & Right can’t come together? Of course we can!! I’m a Trump voter who listens and agrees with Jimmy on most things!!

jerry who?

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CS in AZ's picture

@wendy davis

According to Jimmy Dore in this clip.

Jerry, who is the target of Jimmy's wrath in this segment because he wasn't happy that the Boogaloo guy was on the show before him.

Apparently Jimmy's idea of listening to other viewpoints does not include people who actually disagree with him. Haha. That is truly ironic. I mean come on now... Jimmy Dore does not even listen to people who agree with him! He is notorious for talking over everyone. And as for listening to those who disagree with him, that is hilarious! He steamrolls over anyone who dares to challenge him on anything. Just give a listen to the "Force the Vote Town Hall" for a taste of how JD treats people who he disagrees with, even on a question of tactics. He was aggressive, rude, nasty, name-calling, cutting them off, rolling his eyes and smirking when they do get a word in edgewise, etc. The very epitome of not listening to anyone who does not agree with his every word.

The fact is, Jimmy doesn't "disagree" with the Boogaloo Boi he interviewed. That was the whole point. "See how much we agree!!!" That's why Jimmy had him on the show in the first place.

As soon as JD listens with any respect whatsoever to anyone who actually disagrees with him on anything, then he might have something to say about how we all need to do the same. Sheesh.

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lotlizard's picture

@CS in AZ  
kept mischaracterizing Panvidya and, as Jimmy Dore expressed it, “putting words in his mouth” that were the diametric opposite of everything the man had said.

This after Jerry White had, as a labor expert, been slated to talk about the Hunts Point Market strike but instead opened with a long monologue about Panvidya’s having been the preceding guest, ending with the obligatory reference to the Holocaust.

Jimmy Dore repeatedly invited White to address the case of Panvidya specifically rather than just go on and on about the badness of Boogaloo and right-wing reactionary counter-protest groups in general. Dore only became impatient after White proved unwilling or unable to do this.

If a commenter here said, “Oh, don’t talk to CS in AZ, they believe X and Y and Z” after you just clearly told everyone you sincerely believe the opposite of X and Y and Z, that’s not disagreeing with what you said — that’s lying about what you said.

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wendy davis's picture

@lotlizard

amiga.

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@CS in AZ @CS in AZ White did such a poor job of explaining his position to Jimmy Dore. It wasn't because Dore didn't give him a chance to speak. In fact White had so much time to speak that he kept repeating the same things over and over. Why in the world would a labor organizer, accuse a person, who says that he shares many of your same goals, as being a Nazi? Is that not the opposite of trying to forge unity? I think that White was really on the wrong side of this argument. I don't understand White's absolute unwillingness to allow that Panvidya could share many of the same goals that SEP has.

White's unwillingness, complete intolerance, and the smearing of this person without any proof, reminds me of the bad journalism that is prevalent in the corporate media. It really makes me think twice about the WSWS as a source of news.

Again, I think Jimmy did a great job of not letting White get away with making unsubstantiated claims about this guy, Panvidya. As Jimmy said, it's not fair to just make shit up about someone when you are smearing and vilifying them. It's just plain wrong.

But the real point that makes this pair of interviews so incredible is how it reveals the ugly nature of the so-called left by showing how unwilling, to an almost hysterical degree, they are to listen to people who don't necessarily come from the same background or ascribe to all their beliefs. Once again, the unintentional revelation is that the so-called left thinks people who work for a living are "deplorables"

edited for spelling

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wendy davis's picture

@randtntx

as far as this:

It really makes me think twice about the WSWS as a source of news.

it totally depends on the subject/nation, reporters, and timing. post-dec.6? hyperbolic, many of them, imo.

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wendy davis's picture

@CS in AZ

i'm not a fan of dore (and he laughs about and mocks things i don't find funny at all.

but having jerry white on was amazing; post-dec. 6 i've found some of the authors there highly questioanlble as far as deplatforiming D trump. yes, i know you and i have disagreed about censoring him in the past.

freedom of speech for all or none, imo. but thanks for the heads-up on who Jerry is.

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@wendy davis , for the World Socialist Web Site. His name is Jerry White.
From wikipedia;

He is a member of the Socialist Equality Party of the United States, and was a member of its predecessor the Workers League, joining the movement in 1979.[1] White was the SEP candidate for United States President four times, running in 1996, in 2008, in 2012, and in 2016.[2][3]
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wendy davis's picture

@randtntx

and i do read there a lot, good, bad, histrionic and covid. ; )

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@wendy davis read there a lot. Their covid coverage is generally ahead of many and is pretty extensive. I tend to think it's good.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

But I do know that I have no respect for people who can't bear an honest examination of a person and their views. If the people and their views are toxic, you will find it out; it sometimes takes time, but usually not much. And there's nothing stopping you from fighting all the racism and Nazism that is unabashedly apparent while you're waiting to figure out whether or not this particular guy is a racist Nazi. FFS, this isn't a religion; it's not about how much of a good or bad boy or girl you are. It's also not an adolescent family drama; it's not about whether or not you keep company with the right sort of people. If you are a journalist or a commentator or any kind of social or cultural critic, you should be able to examine anyone or any view, as long as you do it honestly. A good strong critical eye is also useful.

I haven't finished watching Dore's video, so I don't know if he's been bamboozled. But even if he has, that doesn't mean people watching his video must follow along and be bamboozled *because he was*. They still have independent judgement, don't they? If they don't, they've got bigger problems than Jimmy Dore.

The real problem here is people who let others think for them.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

wendy davis's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

The real problem here is people who let others think for them.

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@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal to know if Panvidya is sincere or not and neither do most of us here. I suppose we may eventually find out one way or another, since he has put himself in the spotlight as much as he has. I don't think his sincerity or honesty is even the point. I'm not trying to make this guy into a hero or to presume that I could know his motives. For me the important thing is to acknowledge this person in the way he presents himself. I mean, simply, to accept him at his word. I don't think that is a bad thing. All the bloggers and TV watchers and spectators of these events are way too willing to think they know who are the bad guys and who are the good guys.

I suspect that the people who are at these various protests have a much better sense of what is really going on.

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wendy davis's picture

@randtntx

to this!

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gulfgal98's picture

@randtntx I am late to the commentary on this and will post more down thread, BUT how will we ever be able to fight the bigger fish (the PTB) if we are unable to at least listen to someone who is a part of a group that has been characterized as being against everything we stand for? Finding common ground is the only way that we the people have a chance against the oligarchy and that means finding ways to create alliances.

Remember Occupy Wall Street and all the other Occupy groups that rose up across the US were branded as being terrorist organizations. And for the record, I participated in Occupy Tallahassee and it was a life changing experience of the most positive nature for me.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

@gulfgal98 . There are so many bad actors, how do we sort them all out and know who is who? I watched that greyzone interview with Bill Arkin, a seasoned journalist who, among other interesting things indicated that our military influence in our government is so powerful that it overwhelms our ability to change things. So when you say this; "finding common ground is the only way that we the people have a chance against the oligarchy and that means finding ways to create alliances", it makes sense.

Akins also said that our society needs to understand the "Trump supporters" because there are 70,000 of them and they did not just disappear. They are still here. A sizable chunk of them were Obama supporters. Not all of them are irredeemable racists, but many are.

This is the video, I think you may find it interesting:

36 min

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

and it's not surprising that the response to Dore's tweet was overwhelmingly negative; everybody, including my nearest and dearest, absolutely believes that the Boogaloo crowd are a bunch of Nazis trying to establish a 4th Reich.

The problem I've got is the assumption that interviewing a bad person is supporting a bad person. If this is a republic or a democracy, it must rest on the idea that any given member of the public has the capacity for independent judgement, and does not simply swallow, uncritically, what they're told. If we think Dore was bamboozled, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with him, or that we should stop watching his show; it just means that he was in error on this occasion. We don't have to follow him into that error. There's an assumption floating about that we all have fragile little minds that are vulnerable to any taint, so we must silence the views of bad people so we don't hear them, otherwise we will become bad people. That's toxic crap, and a danger to the possibility of a republic or a democracy far more pervasive and effective than the Boogaloo crowd.

As I said elsewhere, I haven't finished watching the video yet--got a lot on my plate today--so I haven't formed a judgement about whether or not this guy is a toxic manipulator. He might well be completely sincere (or be sincere yet be the tool of a nasty organization, as somebody above suggested.) Regardless, knowing more about him and his views leaves us in a better position than knowing less. And the idea that data about him needs to be filtered through approved vetters of political and media content who will tell us how to feel about him is a pretty rotten notion.

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14 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

....everybody, including my nearest and dearest, absolutely believes that the Boogaloo crowd are a bunch of Nazis trying to establish a 4th Reich.

If there is to be a replay of the Nazi Empire I would expect it to come from a confluence of corporate power, a corrupt government, and highly weaponized military, standing army and police force not from a ragtag bunch of citizens with guns.

Without domestic “terrorists” how are they going to be able to justify to the public a new wave of domestic surveillance and media sensorship? Get ready for Patriot Act 2.0, the sequel.

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15 users have voted.

"I fear that monstrous russian dictatorship going to attack the free world with bioweapons it seized in unexisting Pentagon funded humanitarian Ukrainian biolabs."
Greg Galloway 3/14/22

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@ovals49

Got my eyes firmly on my worst enemies. I may not know all their names, but I know who they are, and they're not, as you say, a bunch of gun-toting ragtag guys.

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0 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal The current culture on both right and left seems to be that all considerations must be viewed through approved ideologies. Olive Stone was heavily attacked for his lengthy interview of Putin. Stone replied that given the view of Putin as enemy number one, shouldn't we understand his world view? Sometimes an interview should just be about letting the person speak and reveal themselves. And then applying our critical skills in measuring the person and beliefs.

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12 users have voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@MrWebster

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0 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

wendy davis's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

of the boogaloo bois, but on the other hand, many against the Proud Boys who dress in yellow and black: as in Evil Incarnate! by reportage. caitlin johnstone seemed to have been defending/explaining Antifa recently, but don't quote me on that, as an e-friend had sent me one her essays titled close to 'the pendulum is swinging back to smearing the left...again'.

i still have no notion of what Antifa conveys, even after reading a veritable desk encyclopedia of explanation by danny sjurenensen of however it goes. ; )

but i agree that knowing is better than not knowing, deciding as we will, but i sure do wish there were transcripts. at least RT had a bit of one for this program. i did like that he seems to have a sense of humor, maybe even self-deprecating, which i find immensely lacking in so many of us.

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3 users have voted.

@wendy davis watch this guy. He understands Antifa.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bgwS_FMZ3nQ

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0 users have voted.

Greenwald do the other day when he was discussing some connections between far right and far left. He said he spent time with both the Tea Party people and then later the Occupy Wall Street groups. He found that they had similar if not exact complaints about issues. One major one was the government bail outs of Wall Street, etc.

This could explain why we had people who voted for Obama twice and then for Trump. I also think this bolsters my argument that Bernie could have won because he and Trump actually were on the same side of some issues.

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12 users have voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

wendy davis's picture

@Fishtroller 02

that point of view, but when we were discussing the other day here what issues might the putative left and right might agree on, my short list someone had called 'kitchen table issue' which seemed about right to me.

i will say that one of the things i loved about occupying wall street in mancos, co. was that so many times people would stop and chat. what we did was to Listen First, then offer gentle countervailing opinions and suggestions as to What Might Be instead. so many times those same angry folks walked back to their cars nodding their heads with slightly glazed eyes.

of course we got some Fuck Yous and bird fingers from occupants of pickup trucks, lol. this h'yar is Redneck Country, now gentrified, more's the pity.

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5 users have voted.

@Fishtroller 02

This could explain why we had people who voted for Obama twice and then for Trump. I also think this bolsters my argument that Bernie could have won because he and Trump actually were on the same side of some issues.

is a major deal-killer for people who might otherwise have been willing to vote for Sanders.

Democratic focus on depriving people of scary black rifles doesn't inspire confidence as anyone who bothers to check can easily find out that long guns of any type are a very minor component of gun homicides.

Ironically, Vermont has a long history of very libertarian gun laws as well is extremely low rates of violent crime - but Sanders, to me, seems much more NYC than VT in a lot of respects and gun policy seems to be an example.

People paying attention tend to recognize the agenda is not about gun control but simply *control*.

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0 users have voted.
lotlizard's picture

lasting success to the AfD in the eastern states: accusing a whole bunch of people of being Nazis who weren’t actually Nazis.

For some strange reason, that tends to drive people away and convince them it’s impossible to have any kind of dealings in good faith with said established parties.

Plus, here in Dresden, every February 13th, some Green, Left, etc. politicians and writers, trying to be edgy, basically not only dance on the graves of people who died in the firebombing of Dresden (while also lowballing their number), but imply that anyone who mourns rather than celebrating that event must also be a Nazi.

Write people off and they don’t vote for you but instead go looking for someone who doesn’t act as if anyone of German descent is damned for all time by history — what a counter-intuitive idea! /s

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12 users have voted.

@lotlizard Looks like some people are taking away the wrong lesson. The TNT of the bombs dropped on Dresden was equal to the explosive power of the atomic bombs dropped on Japan. From what I can gather, the fire bombing of German cities were used to model what happens when an atomic bomb is dropped. For example, the enormous fires that would literally suckup oxygen killing people with carbon monoxide poisoning.

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7 users have voted.

@MrWebster when it happened.
"...Another significant danger of POW life, especially for those outside of camps, was posed by Allied air raids. POWs were often transported through German territory via railway car, sometimes marked with red crosses to alert Allied fliers, but railyards and boxcars were often strafed. The train carrying Vonnegut and others to Stalag IV-B was unmarked and was strafed and bombed by the RAF on Christmas Eve. At Stalag IV-B, Vonnegut was one of the unfortunates selected for a 150-man labor detachment destined for Dresden.

From January 10th and into February, the American POWs were forced to work extremely long hours in a malt-syrup factory supplied with meager rations and overseen by cruel guards. They were sheltered in a slaughterhouse with the address Schlachthof 5 [Slaughterhouse-Five.] Vonnegut described the seminal event in the history of Dresden in a letter to his family, “On about February 14th the Americans came over, followed by the R.A.F. their combined labors killed 250,000 people in 24 hours and destroyed all of Dresden—possibly the world’s most beautiful city. But not me.”
Vonnegut and the other POWs escaped the firestorm in an underground meat locker. In the aftermath, the POWs were forced to recover bodies and collect corpses for burial or funeral pyres; surviving residents threw rocks and cursed them.

Prior to the Allies reaching Dresden, the POWs were evacuated ahead of liberation, as was often the case with prisoners of war both civilian and military in eastern parts of the German Reich. Vonnegut and the other survivors were eventually liberated by the Red Army in May 1945. RAMP [Recovered American Military Personnel] Vonnegut penned a letter to his father from Camp Lucky Strike in Le Havre.

Just six months prior, but in a different world, in December 1944, Vonnegut had arrived in Le Havre with his unit ready to engage in combat with the Germans. In May 1945, thousands of former POWs were assembled there for processing and repatriation. Vonnegut wrote, “I’m told that you were probably never informed that I was anything other than ‘missing in action.’ Chances are that you also failed to receive any of the letters I wrote from Germany. That leaves me a lot of explaining to do…”
(all emphasis mine)

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/kurt-vonnegut-slaughterho...

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8 users have voted.
wendy davis's picture

@aliasalias

several years in a row i'd marked the fire-bombing of dresden where i was writing at the time, noting the barbaric senseless of it as it was all for demoralization given the epic amount of art there. the pushback was horrific: 'don't you believe in the holocaust???'

anyway, to mark the day and the magical prose of kurt vonnegut's billy pilgrim

War In Reverse

thank you aliasalias.

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6 users have voted.
wendy davis's picture

@lotlizard

have stopped by this discussion the other day. hold that thought, and i'll go fetch the AfD portion. here is is at the end.

here is is:

dw.com, Germany at odds over Twitter ban for far-right AfD partyJohn Silk 1/12/2021

"This is proving to be a major stumbling block in putting a lid on far-right political groups' ability to galvanize support on social media