Politics: Get down to the REAL Nitty-Gritty

Submitted by jim p on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 6:45pm

Being a politically aware person for some 58 years now (thank you Bolshevik-fleeing Granddad!) I’ve always been one of those people who frequent political discussion circles. I don’t exclude anyone on the basis they’re insane or dis/agreeable to my thinking or feelings.

My theory is that in actual practice there has been, and only can be, Democracy as a form of government. If the majority of people can be terrorized into non-opposition by a Stalin, well, it’s understandable they are. But there’s their real vote, eh? If the majority stood up in public, at some point Stalin would have gone the way of the Tsar. Democracy is always in action, imo.

But my eccentric theory aside. The point is I sample, have been sampling, every view point out there on a daily basis for decades.

And here’s what we’ve got: Everyone wrangling over the way to get power; and that ostensibly the way to get “best government possible.” Capitalism vs. Socialism; Democrats vs. Republicans; Libertarians vs Common Sense; Within the System vs. Outside the System; Religion vs. Religion vs. Religion(…); Left vs. Right, etc.

To me, although these debates have merit, and have practical outcomes, in the end it all boils to “blah blah about tra tra.” Take the Cap/Soc talk. We see that that’s going to be the main topic in upcoming elections. In my view, I think if either theory were actually applied in any particular nation, the lives of people would be good (without nature wreaking havoc). In one system there’d be fewer yachts sold, in the other nurses would get paid better, but life would be workable.

But neither Capitalist nor Socialist theory is being, nor has been, applied. Because the real nitty-gritty in political power outcomes is that the most Ruthless Narcissist Psychopaths are the ones that seize the practical machinery of governance.

Capitalism or Socialism patter might sway the masses, but interpreted and implemented by psychopaths both “systems” end up as just styles of plunder, criminality, and plain lunacy. With lots of effective tyranny thrown into the bargain.

This is as true in the US as it is in China, the Vatican, and any other place you’d care to name. Now, I’m not saying that the Psychopaths always and only govern. There are periods in history when there are breathers for the people. But the crazies keep working to get all the power they can; they never stop.

The real nitty-gritty?: Politics is about Ruthless Narcissist Psychopaths vs. Informed Adults of Good Intent. Nothing else.

No party, ideological, religious “x vs. y” discussion is going to get us to better governance unless this one battle gets won by the Adults. Whatever system is set up, if the RNPs get hold of it, we’re all losers.

I don’t know how you stop them as a routine societal matter. It would be great if there was a test that shows “oh, yeah, this guy will rob you blind and beat you if he had power.” But even if there were… Who’d be implementing the test? And if the assumptions of the test are wrong…?

I guess all we’ve got as an option is to collectively develop a nose for the Ruthless Narcissist Psychopaths in Public Life. Would it be out of bounds for political office holders/candidates if there were news crews interviewing everyone in that person’s life back to kindergarten days?

Anyway. Until “Informed Adults of Good Intent” find the way to stymie the ambitions of the Ruthless Narcissist Psychopaths, I don’t see how the People win. Nor do I see any great merit in the usual political discussions that fail to take our real situation into account.

Tags:

politics

Socialism

Capitalism

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Comments

Submitted by The Aspie Corner on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 7:25pm

Capitalism ran its course 100 years ago.

All FDR did was keep the brain dead corpse of capitalism on life support. At this point, the capitalist parasites are just cannibalizing what's left.

—

Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 8:31pm

ran its course 100 years ago

@The Aspie Corner

you wrote:

Capitalism ran its course 100 years ago. All FDR did was keep the brain dead corpse of capitalism on life support. At this point, the capitalist parasites are just cannibalizing what's left.

in answer to our Essayist's:

The real nitty-gritty?: Politics is about Ruthless Narcissist Psychopaths vs. Informed Adults of Good Intent. Nothing else.

No party, ideological, religious “x vs. y” discussion is going to get us to better governance unless this one battle gets won by the Adults. Whatever system is set up, if the RNPs get hold of it, we’re all losers.

Socialism had its RNPs, too.

What Josef Stalin and Co. did with socialism set it back at least 100 years.

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by jim p on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 8:53pm

Thank you. The statement of theories

@thanatokephaloides about possible economic and political systems is sure to come to nothing if we can't weed out the really vicious lunatics who masquerade as advocates of any system.

—

Orwell: Where's the omelette?

Submitted by The Aspie Corner on Wed, 03/06/2019 - 5:14am

Because capitalism rewards the worst of humanity.

@jim p This has been shown time and time again throughout history. The only reason we're still having this 'debate' is because the capitalist pigs themselves keep the rest of us ignorant, tired and afraid.

—

Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

Submitted by jim p on Wed, 03/06/2019 - 11:35am

The marxists socialists 60,000,000

@The Aspie Corner murdered. Not sure you read the essay.

—

Orwell: Where's the omelette?

Submitted by The Aspie Corner on Wed, 03/06/2019 - 11:55am

That was debunked not too long ago.

@jim p In fact, the Black Book of Communism was such an obvious lie that the authors themselves washed their hands of it...or tried to, at least.

—

Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

Submitted by jim p on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 10:07am

Yeah, I've read some of the hahaha

@The Aspie Corner debunking. In one instance the author reduced the deaths from Stalin by more than 95% by counting the official death sentences in court. Ignoring the thousands of survivors and their relatives who spoke of other thousands of people being worked to death and even summarily executed. And talk to Chinese who lived under Mao; I do. And it's one horror story after another, the things they went through and had happen to their family.

If you are going to tell us that Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot were not psychopathic murderers then you've got a commitment to ideology that surpasses commitment to reality.

Maybe that's why not one comment you made deals with what the Essay is about. Or perhaps there was a glitch in your browser and you thought you were responding inside an essay about FDR or Capitalism or something.

—

Orwell: Where's the omelette?

Submitted by The Aspie Corner on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 12:20pm

I could say the same to you.

@jim p You seem awfully committed to the defense and propping up of an economic ideology that rewards the worst of humanity at every last cost. Even if the cooked figures you bring up were true, capitalism has caused much more death and destruction.

Funny thing about Pol Pot: He came to power because of what we did to Cambodia, especially when we bombed the shit out of them to get the drop on the Viet Cong.
And "Ask people who lived there! Horror Stories!!!! blah blah blah". Typical. William Randolph Hearst would be proud.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsvZoAATfOw]

—

Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

Submitted by jim p on Thu, 03/07/2019 - 11:18pm

You seem awfully committed

@The Aspie Corner to not actually thinking about anything in the essay.

Maybe I'll write an essay "Let's Dig Up FDR's Corpse and Throw Things at It" so you'd have a proper venue to ride your hobby-horse.

—

Orwell: Where's the omelette?

Submitted by The Aspie Corner on Wed, 03/06/2019 - 9:54am

World War 2 did more to set socialism back than Stalin.

@thanatokephaloides But for some reason, that's always ignored. After all, we were the ones who propped up some of the governments in Europe that invaded the Soviet Union, the crimes of which were pinned on Stalin by Khrushchev and his boys using fabricated documents from formerly Nazi-occupied countries (like Poland).

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6JUpTaZ-I8]

—

Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

Submitted by jim p on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 9:47pm

I don't understand your response.

@The Aspie Corner It doesn't really seem like a response, but more that the mention of "Capitalism" triggered a thought stream or something.

—

Orwell: Where's the omelette?

Submitted by Wink on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 10:46pm

Agree. And no more

proof is needed
@The Aspie Corner

than them (Capitalists) raiding the public Treasuries everywhere, be it Social Safety Net "Entitlements" or the Public School System (via vouchers for their private schools).

There just ain't nuthin' left to rob except The Gov't itself.

—

the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.

Submitted by Tall Bald and Ugly on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 7:35pm

Wow.

Just-hahaa-wow.

Anyway. Until “Informed Adults of Good Intent” find the way to stymie the ambitions of the Ruthless Narcissist Psychopaths, I don’t see how the People win. Nor do I see any great merit in the usual political discussions that fail to take our real situation into account.

Was that a mic drop?

Edit to add quote that didn't take the first time.

—

Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .

Explain Bldg #7. . . still waiting. . .

If you’ve ever wondered whether you would have complied in 1930’s Germany,
Now you know. . .
sign at protest march

Submitted by jim p on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 8:55pm

It did feel like one when I wrote it.

@Tall Bald and Ugly Mind you, this is after decades of study of politics, history, religion, psychology, observing human nature on small and big scales...

—

Orwell: Where's the omelette?

Submitted by bobswern on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 7:35pm

"They" ("opposition researchers" and the media) already do this!

"...Would it be out of bounds for political office holders/candidates if there were news crews interviewing everyone in that person’s life back to kindergarten days?..."

—

"Freedom is something that dies unless it's used." --Hunter S. Thompson

Submitted by jim p on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 9:00pm

Heh. Yeah, when there's a smear

@bobswern to possibly dig up, or to fabricate from lop-sided "investigation." Not to find out if people underwent good, bad, or whatever as a result of the politicians' own life.

Can you imagine if all of Trump's old business partners came out with how he screwed them; Hillary's long list of the threatened and revenged....

—

Orwell: Where's the omelette?

Submitted by Linda Wood on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 7:52pm

FDR,

a Wall Street banker and speculator, was the covert candidate of his time:

http://www.reformation.org/wall-st-fdr-ch1.html

(From: Wall Street and FDR By Antony C. Sutton)

… Perhaps it always makes good politics to appear before the American electorate as a critic, if not an outright enemy, of the international banking fraternity. Without question Franklin D. Roosevelt, his supporters, and biographers portray FDR as a knight in shining armor wielding the sword of righteous vengeance against the robber barons in the skyscrapers of downtown Manhattan. For instance, the Roosevelt Presidential campaign of 1932 consistently attacked President Herbert Hoover for his alleged association with international bankers and for pandering to the demands of big business. Witness the following FDR blast in the depths of the Great Depression at Hoover's public support for business and individualism, uttered in the campaign address in Columbus, Ohio, August 20, 1932:

"Appraising the situation in the bitter dawn of a cold morning after, what do we find? We find two thirds of American industry concentrated in a few hundred corporations and actually managed by not more than five human individuals.

We find more than half of the savings of the country invested in corporate stocks and bonds, and made the sport of the American stock market.

We find fewer than three dozen private banking houses, and stock selling adjuncts of commercial banks, directing the flow of American capital.

In other words, we find concentrated economic power in a few hands, the precise opposite of the individualism of which the President speaks."

This statement makes Franklin Delano Roosevelt appear as another Andrew Jackson, contesting a bankers' monopoly and their strangle-hold on American industry. But was FDR also an unwilling (or possibly a willing) tool of the Wall Street bankers… ?

… the Du Ponts and Rockefellers are certainly on record in Congressional investigations as the largest contributors to the 1928 Hoover campaign.. But Wall Street withdrew its support of Herbert Hoover in 1932 and switched to FDR... Why did Wall Street switch? Because, as we shall see later, Herbert Hoover would not adopt the Swope Plan created by Gerard Swope, long-time president of General Electric. By contrast, FDR accepted the plan, and it became FDR's National Industrial Recovery Act. So while Hoover was indebted to Wall Street, FDR was much more so.

… Why do Schlesinger, Freidel, and other lesser FDR biographers avoid the issue and show reluctance to pursue the leads? Simply because, when you probe the facts, Roosevelt was a creation of Wall Street, an integral part of the New York banking fraternity, and had the pecuniary interests of the financial establishment very much at heart.

Submitted by jim p on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 10:01pm

I don't get criticizing any politician

@Linda Wood @Linda Wood @Linda Wood for failure to overthrow Capitalism. That includes Bernie. Listen, in the real world brakes fail, planes crash, hearts attack, gunmen run around alone, etc. And if not a trouble for the politician, hey, everyone knows where their family spends their time, eh?

In our politics you can squeeze the edges of Capitalism, but you can't extinguish it. That's because ruthless psychopaths run things. Of course, as history shows, under Socialist/Communist regimes you have gunmen, plane crashes, and heart attacks happening to the politically threatening as well.

So I'm not going to feel too bad that FDR didn't overthrow the established order. I don't even know why someone would imagine he could have. My only income is Social Security, and without FDR I'd have been dead years ago. And my mother even years earlier than that. I forgive him.
[edited 11pm ET to get the last paragraph in order. - jp]

a Wall Street banker and speculator, was the covert candidate of his time: http://www.reformation.org/wall-st-fdr-ch1.html (From: Wall Street and FDR By Antony C. Sutton) … Perhaps it always makes good politics to appear before the American electorate as a critic, if not an outright enemy, of the international banking fraternity. Without question Franklin D. Roosevelt, his supporters, and biographers portray FDR as a knight in shining armor wielding the sword of righteous vengeance against the robber barons in the skyscrapers of downtown Manhattan. For instance, the Roosevelt Presidential campaign of 1932 consistently attacked President Herbert Hoover for his alleged association with international bankers and for pandering to the demands of big business. Witness the following FDR blast in the depths of the Great Depression at Hoover's public support for business and individualism, uttered in the campaign address in Columbus, Ohio, August 20, 1932: "Appraising the situation in the bitter dawn of a cold morning after, what do we find? We find two thirds of American industry concentrated in a few hundred corporations and actually managed by not more than five human individuals. We find more than half of the savings of the country invested in corporate stocks and bonds, and made the sport of the American stock market. We find fewer than three dozen private banking houses, and stock selling adjuncts of commercial banks, directing the flow of American capital. In other words, we find concentrated economic power in a few hands, the precise opposite of the individualism of which the President speaks." This statement makes Franklin Delano Roosevelt appear as another Andrew Jackson, contesting a bankers' monopoly and their strangle-hold on American industry. But was FDR also an unwilling (or possibly a willing) tool of the Wall Street bankers… ? … the Du Ponts and Rockefellers are certainly on record in Congressional investigations as the largest contributors to the 1928 Hoover campaign.. But Wall Street withdrew its support of Herbert Hoover in 1932 and switched to FDR... Why did Wall Street switch? Because, as we shall see later, Herbert Hoover would not adopt the Swope Plan created by Gerard Swope, long-time president of General Electric. By contrast, FDR accepted the plan, and it became FDR's National Industrial Recovery Act. So while Hoover was indebted to Wall Street, FDR was much more so. … Why do Schlesinger, Freidel, and other lesser FDR biographers avoid the issue and show reluctance to pursue the leads? Simply because, when you probe the facts, Roosevelt was a creation of Wall Street, an integral part of the New York banking fraternity, and had the pecuniary interests of the financial establishment very much at heart.

—

Orwell: Where's the omelette?

Submitted by dkmich on Wed, 03/06/2019 - 7:47am

Which is why the left is open to chants of

@jim p

what do you want, a pony? There is lesser of evil voting and then there is lesser of eviloting.

—

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Submitted by jim p on Wed, 03/06/2019 - 11:49am

The left in the West is in

@dkmich the hands of the delusional and of lunatics, as is the right. In our politics the fact remains that if you are, say, a Sen. Wellstone your plane crashes. There's no way around that.

—

Orwell: Where's the omelette?

Submitted by FuturePassed on Wed, 03/06/2019 - 3:28pm

From 1933 until . . .

@Linda Wood about 1978 the wealth gap in this country contracted and a middle class that was the envy of the world emerged. Today, not so much.

a Wall Street banker and speculator, was the covert candidate of his time: http://www.reformation.org/wall-st-fdr-ch1.html (From: Wall Street and FDR By Antony C. Sutton) … Perhaps it always makes good politics to appear before the American electorate as a critic, if not an outright enemy, of the international banking fraternity. Without question Franklin D. Roosevelt, his supporters, and biographers portray FDR as a knight in shining armor wielding the sword of righteous vengeance against the robber barons in the skyscrapers of downtown Manhattan. For instance, the Roosevelt Presidential campaign of 1932 consistently attacked President Herbert Hoover for his alleged association with international bankers and for pandering to the demands of big business. Witness the following FDR blast in the depths of the Great Depression at Hoover's public support for business and individualism, uttered in the campaign address in Columbus, Ohio, August 20, 1932: "Appraising the situation in the bitter dawn of a cold morning after, what do we find? We find two thirds of American industry concentrated in a few hundred corporations and actually managed by not more than five human individuals. We find more than half of the savings of the country invested in corporate stocks and bonds, and made the sport of the American stock market. We find fewer than three dozen private banking houses, and stock selling adjuncts of commercial banks, directing the flow of American capital. In other words, we find concentrated economic power in a few hands, the precise opposite of the individualism of which the President speaks." This statement makes Franklin Delano Roosevelt appear as another Andrew Jackson, contesting a bankers' monopoly and their strangle-hold on American industry. But was FDR also an unwilling (or possibly a willing) tool of the Wall Street bankers… ? … the Du Ponts and Rockefellers are certainly on record in Congressional investigations as the largest contributors to the 1928 Hoover campaign.. But Wall Street withdrew its support of Herbert Hoover in 1932 and switched to FDR... Why did Wall Street switch? Because, as we shall see later, Herbert Hoover would not adopt the Swope Plan created by Gerard Swope, long-time president of General Electric. By contrast, FDR accepted the plan, and it became FDR's National Industrial Recovery Act. So while Hoover was indebted to Wall Street, FDR was much more so. … Why do Schlesinger, Freidel, and other lesser FDR biographers avoid the issue and show reluctance to pursue the leads? Simply because, when you probe the facts, Roosevelt was a creation of Wall Street, an integral part of the New York banking fraternity, and had the pecuniary interests of the financial establishment very much at heart.

Submitted by on the cusp on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 8:24pm

What do you think

does have merit?

—

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Submitted by jim p on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 9:13pm

If everyone was given a course

@on the cusp @on the cusp on Ponerolgy. The study of evil, and named by that by a tradition of Polish psychologists studying the matter under the Nazis and continuing through Communism.
http://ponerology.com/

The ultimate cause of evil lies in the interaction of two human factors: 1) normal human ignorance and weakness and 2) the existence and action of a statistically small (4-8% of the general population) but extremely active group of psychologically deviant individuals. The ignorance of the existence of such psychological differences is the first criterion of ponerogenesis. That is, such ignorance creates an opening whereby such individuals can act undetected.

The presence of such “disease” on the individual level is described in the Almost Human section of this website. However, depending on the type of activity of psychopathic and characteropathic individuals, evil can manifest on any societal level. The greater the scope of the psychopath’s influence, the greater harm done. Thus any group of humans can be infected or “ponerized” by their influence. From families, clubs, churches, businesses, and corporations, to entire nations. The most extreme form of such macrosocial evil is called “pathocracy”.
http://ponerology.com/evil_2b.html

and another taste, about how when the psychopaths have poisoned a non-psychopathic community:

First Criterion of Ponerogenesis: “One phenomenon all ponerogenic groups and associations have in common is the fact that their members lose (or have already lost) the capacity to perceive pathological individuals as such, interpreting their behavior in fascinated, heroic, or melodramatic ways” (Lobaczewski, 158). When a group has succumbed to pathological influence its members soon lose the ability to distinguish normal human behavior from pathological. This atrophy of critical faculties in relation to such individuals becomes an opening to their activities. It can also be used to identify potentially dangerous groups.
[my bolding - jp]

—

Orwell: Where's the omelette?

Submitted by UntimelyRippd on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 9:59pm

interesting.

@jim p

#5 #5 on Ponerolgy. The study of evil, and named by that by a tradition of Polish psychologists studying the matter under the Nazis and continuing through Communism.
http://ponerology.com/

The ultimate cause of evil lies in the interaction of two human factors: 1) normal human ignorance and weakness and 2) the existence and action of a statistically small (4-8% of the general population) but extremely active group of psychologically deviant individuals. The ignorance of the existence of such psychological differences is the first criterion of ponerogenesis. That is, such ignorance creates an opening whereby such individuals can act undetected.

The presence of such “disease” on the individual level is described in the Almost Human section of this website. However, depending on the type of activity of psychopathic and characteropathic individuals, evil can manifest on any societal level. The greater the scope of the psychopath’s influence, the greater harm done. Thus any group of humans can be infected or “ponerized” by their influence. From families, clubs, churches, businesses, and corporations, to entire nations. The most extreme form of such macrosocial evil is called “pathocracy”.
http://ponerology.com/evil_2b.html

and another taste, about how when the psychopaths have poisoned a non-psychopathic community:

First Criterion of Ponerogenesis: “One phenomenon all ponerogenic groups and associations have in common is the fact that their members lose (or have already lost) the capacity to perceive pathological individuals as such, interpreting their behavior in fascinated, heroic, or melodramatic ways” (Lobaczewski, 158). When a group has succumbed to pathological influence its members soon lose the ability to distinguish normal human behavior from pathological. This atrophy of critical faculties in relation to such individuals becomes an opening to their activities. It can also be used to identify potentially dangerous groups.
[my bolding - jp]

—

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

Submitted by jim p on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 10:04pm

There's an expensive but worth it

@UntimelyRippd book of a few hundred pages they offer at the site. This is like 50 years of trained psychological professionals hashing out the role of psychopaths in destroying the soul of communities.

—

Orwell: Where's the omelette?

Submitted by dkmich on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 9:04pm

Hey Jim P

Humans are awful. They should be eaten at birth.

I'm all for no money in politics and a direct democracy. We vote on whether or not the President can take a leak. If at least 60% of the voters don't say yes, the answer is no. Roman Coliseum comes to mind with the politicians against the lions.

—

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Submitted by jobu on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 9:07pm

In a nutshell, yes

The real nitty-gritty?: Politics is about Ruthless Narcissist Psychopaths vs. Informed Adults of Good Intent. Nothing else.

Getting enough informed adults has always been the rub. Who does the informing and how. Jefferson understood this:

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects to what never was and never will be.

Light and Liberty go Together

I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves ; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power.

And it wasn't just Jefferson. John Adams wrote this notion that we need informed citizens directly into the Massachusetts Constitution, considered one of the templates for our Federal Constitution.

Section 2.–The Encouragement of Literature, etc.
Wisdom and knowledge, as well as virtue, diffused generally among the body of the people, being necessary for the preservation of their rights and liberties; and as these depend on spreading the opportunities and advantages of education in the various parts of the country, and among the different orders of the people, it shall be the duty of legislatures and magistrates, in all future periods of this commonwealth, to cherish the interests of literature and the sciences, and all seminaries of them; especially the university at Cambridge, public schools, and grammar-schools in the towns

my emphasis

The Founding Plutocrats and their Narcissist Psychopathic (anti) intellectual heirs have always had the upper hand in preventing what the great John Dewey called Public Collective Consciousness. The Progressive School of Pedagogy was and maybe still is the only way to produce informed men and women with good intentions. Which is probably why it was banished. In its place we have not education but indoctrination.

I perceive a new and growing sense that we are entering a moment where enough of us are regaining this public consciousness and the good intentions engendered from it. It is just a feeling I have, nothing I can back up with hard data. But I am encouraged by this feeling whether warranted or not. Perhaps it is the panic of the Centrists to hold on to power, the ham-handedness they are forced into. It just seems so desperate.

Maybe this should be the new motto for C99:

C99. Informed Adults with Good Intent.

Submitted by jim p on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 9:19pm

Yeah. Maybe the 100th Monkey

@jobu effect happens, or what Rupert Sheldrake thought about morphic fields. https://www.sheldrake.org/research/morphic-resonance/introduction

At a certain point, a given percentage of monkeys learn how to crack a crab's shell and the next day not only do all the local monkeys know how to do it, they do on the next island as well.

Remembering that only a fraction of humanity is psychologically, and thus socially, active is one thing that keeps my hopes up. Everyone will know what's what when 3?, 8? x? percent of us know what's up.

The real nitty-gritty?: Politics is about Ruthless Narcissist Psychopaths vs. Informed Adults of Good Intent. Nothing else.

Getting enough informed adults has always been the rub. Who does the informing and how. Jefferson understood this:

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects to what never was and never will be.

Light and Liberty go Together

I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves ; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power.

And it wasn't just Jefferson. John Adams wrote this notion that we need informed citizens directly into the Massachusetts Constitution, considered one of the templates for our Federal Constitution.

Section 2.–The Encouragement of Literature, etc.
Wisdom and knowledge, as well as virtue, diffused generally among the body of the people, being necessary for the preservation of their rights and liberties; and as these depend on spreading the opportunities and advantages of education in the various parts of the country, and among the different orders of the people, it shall be the duty of legislatures and magistrates, in all future periods of this commonwealth, to cherish the interests of literature and the sciences, and all seminaries of them; especially the university at Cambridge, public schools, and grammar-schools in the towns

my emphasis

The Founding Plutocrats and their Narcissist Psychopathic (anti) intellectual heirs have always had the upper hand in preventing what the great John Dewey called Public Collective Consciousness. The Progressive School of Pedagogy was and maybe still is the only way to produce informed men and women with good intentions. Which is probably why it was banished. In its place we have not education but indoctrination.

I perceive a new and growing sense that we are entering a moment where enough of us are regaining this public consciousness and the good intentions engendered from it. It is just a feeling I have, nothing I can back up with hard data. But I am encouraged by this feeling whether warranted or not. Perhaps it is the panic of the Centrists to hold on to power, the ham-handedness they are forced into. It just seems so desperate.

Maybe this should be the new motto for C99:

C99. Informed Adults with Good Intent.

—

Orwell: Where's the omelette?

Submitted by Tall Bald and Ugly on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 9:53pm

Nope,

@jim p that thesis has been debunked. I recently read an in depth article on that and how it was bullshit. If I can find the article again, I'll post it to you.
The monkeys couldn't swim. If they can't swim, the knowledge doesn't get disseminated to other islands.
And it didn't.

—

Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .

Explain Bldg #7. . . still waiting. . .

If you’ve ever wondered whether you would have complied in 1930’s Germany,
Now you know. . .
sign at protest march

Submitted by jim p on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 10:16pm

One study does not a Reality make.

@Tall Bald and Ugly Unless it proved the original authors lied. Which wouldn't surprise me if it is the case. But whether a myth or not, Sheldrake's research and experiments do argue for something like a titration point in the psyche of species. How people's assessments of things flip overnight, like the Iraq War, even in the absence of propaganda promoting the change...

The main point being, I don't see how we stop the psychopaths from gaining power unless there's an almost spontaneous spread of people being able to quickly recognize them. Do you?

—

Orwell: Where's the omelette?

Submitted by FuturePassed on Wed, 03/06/2019 - 3:33pm

If you find it,

@Tall Bald and Ugly please post it to me too.
Thanks.

Submitted by jim p on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 9:29pm

Oh, and on the Jeffersonian points

@jobu

the remedy is ...to inform their discretion by education.

That's how we know TwitFaceGoog is anti-democratic. They censor things instead of educating their users on the tricks of rhetoric and manipulation; how to verify a source; why we need to keep an open mind until we know we have full-enough data; how to use reason; how to recognize fallacies.

You'd think they start teaching this in third grade at the latest. If we weren't more Mockrazy than Democracy.

The real nitty-gritty?: Politics is about Ruthless Narcissist Psychopaths vs. Informed Adults of Good Intent. Nothing else.

Getting enough informed adults has always been the rub. Who does the informing and how. Jefferson understood this:

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects to what never was and never will be.

Light and Liberty go Together

I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves ; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power.

And it wasn't just Jefferson. John Adams wrote this notion that we need informed citizens directly into the Massachusetts Constitution, considered one of the templates for our Federal Constitution.

Section 2.–The Encouragement of Literature, etc.
Wisdom and knowledge, as well as virtue, diffused generally among the body of the people, being necessary for the preservation of their rights and liberties; and as these depend on spreading the opportunities and advantages of education in the various parts of the country, and among the different orders of the people, it shall be the duty of legislatures and magistrates, in all future periods of this commonwealth, to cherish the interests of literature and the sciences, and all seminaries of them; especially the university at Cambridge, public schools, and grammar-schools in the towns

my emphasis

The Founding Plutocrats and their Narcissist Psychopathic (anti) intellectual heirs have always had the upper hand in preventing what the great John Dewey called Public Collective Consciousness. The Progressive School of Pedagogy was and maybe still is the only way to produce informed men and women with good intentions. Which is probably why it was banished. In its place we have not education but indoctrination.

I perceive a new and growing sense that we are entering a moment where enough of us are regaining this public consciousness and the good intentions engendered from it. It is just a feeling I have, nothing I can back up with hard data. But I am encouraged by this feeling whether warranted or not. Perhaps it is the panic of the Centrists to hold on to power, the ham-handedness they are forced into. It just seems so desperate.

Maybe this should be the new motto for C99:

C99. Informed Adults with Good Intent.

—

Orwell: Where's the omelette?

Submitted by eyo on Wed, 03/06/2019 - 6:53am

Forgot Bezos

@jim p

That's how we know TwitFaceGoog is anti-democratic

AmaTwitFaceGoog why not. Thank you so much for this essay, and your comment on ponerology did resonate. ding

Jeff Bezos seems a greedy evil bastard yet the citizenry still subscribes, I don't know why. Just put a bullet in thy head, save time because tempus fugit. Whole Foods now eliminating the cheap 365 store brand, and raising food prices all across the Amazon. told ya

"starvation is the creation of the devil"

I don't want to hijack the topic, but burnt out asked in another essay why I'm not supportive of big unions (the bosses). Because they are trading away good wages and benefits since forever, union bosses don't lift any boats at all really, there is no tide. Opensecrets is full of union lobbyist cashola, legal bribery. "That's the system." broken meh

Atlas Pilots Deserve Better

RIP Giant Air 3591 pilots
PEACE

Submitted by UntimelyRippd on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 10:21pm

nobody's perfect.

i guarantee that if i were as adamant about qualifications as many folks in these parts, not one person posting on this website would qualify for my vote. this leaves Big Al as pretty much the one poster whose position on various candidates' qualifications (or more accurately, DISqualifications) is coherent and unassailable, since he rejects the whole damned process to begin with.

—

Submitted by on the cusp on Tue, 03/05/2019 - 10:26pm

Can't speak to theory and philosophy

but did take a personal look at the (in)famous look at the sewers.
In Warsaw.

—

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Submitted by mimi on Wed, 03/06/2019 - 12:07am

Do you think the RNPs have more power these days

because the internet technology allows them to take selfies and spread their psychopathological intentions endlessly?

Is there an increase in RNPs because of the technology they can use to gain so much power?

—

https://www.euronews.com/live

Submitted by jim p on Wed, 03/06/2019 - 1:29am

Great point! Upthread, on Ponerology

@mimi i quoted "interpreting their [psychopaths] behavior in fascinated, heroic, or melodramatic ways" as part of what turns an entire community to serve the psychopaths. Yes, definitely a tendency greatly exacerbated by the net.

Coupled with the decades-long Mass Media's derision of adult value systems, and replacing them with the value of living as a perpetual adolescence. The French psychologist Paul Diel wrote of how, as a method to kill off the voice of conscience, people either exalt the banal or trivialize the significant. We see this conscience-killing all over the net. Especially in partisan politics. Absence of conscience is part of the definition of "psychopath."

—

Orwell: Where's the omelette?

Submitted by mimi on Wed, 03/06/2019 - 3:57pm

thank you for that mind opening response

@jim p
and sorry to come back here so late. I will read the whole essay and all the comments again. It#s well worth it.

—

https://www.euronews.com/live

Submitted by Lookout on Wed, 03/06/2019 - 8:02am

doesn't the trans-nation corporate cabal ...

make your point moot? They are the true global oligarchy...using the theater of "demockracy" to make the pawns think they have a voice.

I'm sure serfs railed against the feudal lords with similar results... like today's citizens railing against the profit mad corporations. Powerful psychopaths have long been pulling the strings as you suggest.

—

“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Submitted by jim p on Wed, 03/06/2019 - 11:45am

The psychopaths can be defeated.

@Lookout But not permanently.

life today for people is certainly freer than what serfs could do 700 years ago, although more threatened thanks to mass agitation/propaganda made possible by technology.

—

Orwell: Where's the omelette?

Submitted by detroitmechworks on Wed, 03/06/2019 - 12:13pm

Whose Informed Adults?

The problem is that being Informed these days means being propagandized by the very same psychopaths who are in charge.

The situation is sadly not likely to change without a general sea change in attitude among the people towards direct action.

Part of it means changing the society, because American society rewards those that harm others to benefit themselves. We can see the rewards because of the slaps on the wrist given to those willing to share the booty with those that hand out the punishment.

Do I have a better solution than trying to fix the hole in the Titanic with no diving gear, no welding torch, and a wad of chewing gum? Why Yes, I believe I will be using whatever expensive furnishings I can to build a raft while there are furnishings left.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uttlRqHpvNs]

—

I do not pretend I know what I do not know.