A conversation from the Youtube Comments

So, been a while since I've posted an essay on anything really, and let me warn you right now that this isn't going to be one covering any major issues. No, this essay is simply about a conversation I recently had on a Secular Talk video with someone I assume was intending on passing themselves off as an anti-establishment progressive, but just couldn't help but deviate from the script.

The video the comments come from was this one:
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBKvB5JuQWY&lc=z13xwjmq5rnlshzch222evyaz...
Feel free to find the comments yourselves if you want to join in on the conversation, or if you just want to verify that I haven't sinned against my journalism class's teachings and edited the comments to paint a narrative.

Anyway, the conversation is as follows:

Dennis S 1 day ago
where were Bernie's balls when it was revealed that the DNC fixed the primary for Hillary, where were Bernie's balls after the election when the DNC made him go on a unity tour, Where were Bernie's balls concerning Russia, Bernie is now a war monger like Clinton
Get off this Bernie crap, Sanders is an establishment democrat that will do as the party tells him

Darke Exelbirth 1 day ago
Tell me: what difference would it have made for Sanders to complain about the DNC rigging the primary? Would they have said "oh, well, since you complained about it here you go, you get the nomination now?"

Now, I feel I brought up a fair point. What would have changed? It's not like the people who would be investigating claims of election fraud and tampering would be unbiased. Democrats wouldn't have gone against the wishes of the eternal queen HRC, and Republicans wouldn't want the stronger candidate to get the nomination. Their response, however, was a total dodge.

Dennis S 1 day ago
Sense he did not complain we will never know, but without Sanders endorsement, Hillary looses in 40 states, He had the power to force her out of the race, demand the VP spot, or at the very least big part in the party platform, but he did nothing but fall inline which gives a lot of us the feeling he knew the primary was rigged and he was playing the part of the runner up from day one

Now, I know several people here have accused Sanders of being a Democrat sheepdog, and that's something I simply don't agree with, because I don't see the evidence to support that. Anyway, my response:

Darke Exelbirth 21 hours ago
First off, english and grammar, learn them. Second, no, Hillary doesn't lose in 40 states without his endorsement, that's not how the primaries work. She gets the nomination whether or not he complains. Do you seriously think that they would have given him the nomination if he protested? Do you really?

What would he have gained if he complained? You clearly think that he would have gained something, so what is it? What would have changed? Demanding the VP position wouldn't have been affected by complaining. Actually, they probably would have taken away concessions that they did grant him in the first place.

And no, he wasn't playing "runner up" since day one. Nobody had ever heard of him nationally before the primaries began, and he was an independent. His rise to fame was a complete surprise to everyone, himself included. He stated early on that his only intention was to use the Democratic party's primary as a platform to make the nation focus on issues he felt desperately needed attention. Mission accomplished extraordinarily on that one.

And now their arguments start to look a little bit familiar. Anyone else see what I see?

Dennis S 9 hours ago
It is easy to be popular when you go to a collage campus and say "Free Tuition" Not so much when you act like an adult and tell people the truth about the cost of free stuff. Sanders is nothing more then the bad parent who gives their kid everything they ask for, never teaching them that stuff cost money and there is only so much money to go around

Free stuff! Moocher kids! Not enough money! Now where the hell have I heard that before...
The actual bizarre part about this guy's argument is that they've completely reversed what it sounded like they were trying to argue about before. From the initial comment, it sounds like they're completely angry about the establishment existing. Now, they're parroting establishment attacks on progressives.

Darke Exelbirth 7 hours ago
Dennis S
Is it easy to be popular when you go completely against conventional wisdom and preach socialist values in a deep red state only to be met with a standing ovation?

Sanders addresses the cost of "free tuition" (nice job using right wing, establishment Democrat attacks there, by the way. Showing your true colors?) every time he's been pressed on it. It would take less than a single percentage of what we spend on the military alone to completely cover tuition costs for every single adult american. On healthcare, it actually would SAVE the government (and therefore the taxpayers) money if we had a single payer system.

And what kind of bizzarre logic is that? A bad parent makes sure their kid gets an education? Are you a grade school dropout, or are you just having a hard time finding things to justify your claims that Sanders is an establishment Democrat? In fact, you just beat your own argument with that last comment, haven't ya?

So, this next comment of theirs is what prompted me to copy this down into an essay, because I wasn't expecting such a stupid, idiotic response that would actually justify me questioning if they were a grade school dropout.

Dennis S 8 minutes ago
Darke, you make this too easy, first if you make tuition free, millions not in collage will want in, second, if everyone has a 4 year degree then it becomes no more important then High school, what makes a degree important is it sets you apart from those with only HS. Like from the movie Incredibles " if everyone is special, then no one is" On healthcare, why would you want to depend on the government for your healthcare, look how poorly they are running the VA , do I need to say more

Did you all catch what he just argued? If you didn't:

Darke Exelbirth 4 minutes ago
Dennis S so what you're trying to say is that it's better for the US population to be... less educated. I think you've said plenty right there.

So that's the conversation I've had with this person so far. They go from anti-establishment sounding comments, to establishment arguments against doing what's right, to literally saying that more education is a bad thing. Who gives a crap about their copy/pasted anti-healthcare garbage, I feel they may have achieved a new low (or at the very least a less known one). If there's any further conversation with this guy, I'll see about updating this essay with it.

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Pricknick's picture

What would have changed?

It would have shown he had the balls and power to do something instead of falling in line.
Bernie was tops in many minds including my own. Instead, he cowered to the power he dare not refuse.
He had a rare dream and let it slip away to the powers that be.
Bernie may still be a driving voice and thought, but he gave up the power to lead when he fell in line with them and her.

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Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.

Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

@Pricknick So really nothing at all would have changed. You just would like him better, which means absolutely nothing in terms of getting things done.

Instead, he cowered to the power he dare not refuse.

Right, because constantly talking about things like single payer healthcare and tuition free college and rallying people behind progressive ideas like that is definitely cowering to power, when those in power really wish he would shut the hell up and "unify" with them.

I'll ask you the same question then: what good would have come from him "showing he had balls?" What would have turned out different? What supposed power did he have that he failed to capitalize on at that moment?

All this complaining and whining about how he should have been a "leader..." it's just bullshit whining and complaining. You can't force people to become a leader. People have to choose to become a leader. Being a leader also means making choices that people who look to you as a leader are going to completely disagree with and hate you for.

I don't know if Sanders wanted to be a leader or not, or if he felt that he would be a more effective leader if he didn't completely isolate himself as a pariah in the government, but I do know one thing about leadership: if you don't like what the person you decided is your leader is doing, then you either grow a pair and become the leader you wish they were, or you stop complaining because apparently what you wish they were doing isn't important enough to worry about getting done.

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Pricknick's picture

@Thaumlord-Exelbirth

"unify" with them.

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Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.

Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

@Pricknick if you didn't cherry pick what from what I said, the beginning of that sentence would indicate that no, he hasn't. Is that really all you want to get out of what I said?

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Amanda Matthews's picture

@Thaumlord-Exelbirth
They might have gotten the point that voting for Dimocrits just because they're Dimocritic ain't gonna fly anymore??? That there really is a 'better way'?

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

@Amanda Matthews Come on, if they hadn't gotten that point after seeing the huge difference between Sanders and Clinton's rallies and watching the Democratic party grow in number thanks pretty much exclusively to Sanders (and the subsequent loss in that growth after the primaries), they're not going to be swayed by him uttering a complaint. Hell, you know just as well as I do that he would be dismissed as a sore loser in probably 20 different articles or so each day for a week.

You can't beat corruption by complaining to the corrupted people about how it's unfair that they're so corrupt.

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Amanda Matthews's picture

@Thaumlord-Exelbirth
Make it part of the historical record of the Dimocritic Party and our nation's history. To get our chance at influencing both history and reality.

They pay attention. Why do you think they're so butt hurt and blaming us for losing the election???

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

@Amanda Matthews They blame us for the election loss as a distraction from the fact that they've gone further right since the election. They're paid to not care, so not care they'll keep doing.

So far I've not heard of anything that would have changed for the better if Sanders complained to the corrupt overlords about how corrupt they are. I get that you and several others feel betrayed. But his so called betrayal has managed to keep him in a position where he can keep pushing the progressive message on a national scale, something I know the establishment democrats wouldn't have even considered letting happen if he stood up, sued, or ran 3rd party.

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snoopydawg's picture

@Thaumlord-Exelbirth in advance.

You mentioned how many people joined the Democratic Party after hearing Bernie's speeches.
This person knew in advance that Bernie would fold and then support Hillary. Even though he said many times that he would go all the way to the convention, he folded before it happened because his role has been played before by other players.

“The sheepdog is a card the Democratic party plays every presidential primary season when there's no White House Democrat running for re-election.”

Spoiler alert: we have seen the Bernie Sanders show before, and we know exactly how it ends. Bernie has zero likelihood of winning the Democratic nomination for president over Hillary Clinton. Bernie will lose, Hillary will win. When Bernie folds his tent in the summer of 2016, the money, the hopes and prayers, the year of activist zeal that folks put behind Bernie Sanders' either vanishes into thin air, or directly benefits the Hillary Clinton campaign.

Don't believe us? Then believe Bernie himself interviewed by George Stephanopoulos on ABC News “This Week” May 3.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So if you lose in this nomination fight, will you support the Democratic nominee?
SANDERS: Yes. I have in the past.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Not going to run as an independent?
SANDERS: No, absolutely not. I've been very clear about that.

You question what good would it have done if Bernie had questioned the results of the primaries when the voting tallies didn't add up with the exit polls. It would have shown people that he had been a serious contender for beating Hillary as the candidate.

There was so much evidence of fraudulent activity when people had their party affiliation changed and could not fix in time for them to be able to vote.

The Nevada caucus was another big Red flag that the party wasn't playing by the rules.
The person who was running it started it 30 minutes before it was scheduled to start and while most of Bernie's voters were still trying to get into the event.
Then this person took a voice vote and even though the 'no's' were more than the 'yes' votes, she said that the 'yes' votes won.

This is just one example of the numerous voting irregularities that Bernie never contested or even addressed.

Finally, Bernie was asked if Hillary had won the primary fair and square and he said that she had.

I hope that you take the time to read this article and see if you see what happened in a different perspective.

However, Bernie did us a big favor. He opened people's eyes to how corrupt the Democratic Party was.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Amanda Matthews A way which he could have pioneered. But instead he pioneered a way to continue doing the same old thing.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Alphalop's picture

@Thaumlord-Exelbirth

He had the momentum to build a real third party there. If he would have ran as a third party he would have shown that the days of the Democrats paying at best lip service to progressive ideas.

That momentum, win or lose, could have been the start of a new, viable third party.

Certainly a missed opportunity there.

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"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me

Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

@Alphalop That's still a viable possibility.

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@Thaumlord-Exelbirth

Declared himself free of any previous pledges to corrupt Party.

The night he was to speak at convention, Nina Turner was denied her spot.

This was the perfect chance. Sanders goes to the podium, reads list of dnc crimes ends with indictment of platform committee & treatment of Turner & progressive wing.

Says "I am going to the Green Party and walks right out. He would have been given Green Party slot quick. I think we win if his heart had been in it.

I WOULD HAVE DONE IT! No more guts or feel than that he should not pretend to be a leader.

They gave us the path to victory with their cheating. He would not cross the Party with the fate of the world riding on it.

We needed a Lincoln and got Bernie.

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riverlover's picture

and split the country into something Old D and R but not quite. Did he make the sides more vociferous? Or split us into woke and still sleeping?

I suspect many parents of under-18s would be delighted at the prospect of "free" education. In the same way, most would be happy if taxes increased slightly to cover us all in Medicare, birth to death, instead of paying some G-D insurance company an enormous amount of $$$, variable on where you live and your employment status. And still owe medical bills, because we should have skin in them.

I will not even begin on our multiple overseas military adventures, the unstated reason why we can't have nice things.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

or why he didn't do what he didn't do. What matters is that he woke millions of Americans up from a long sleep. Or maybe it was some kind of a weird Obama-trance. Whatever it was, Bernie snapped his fingers, and millions of people woke right up.

They saw Hillary for what she was, and they saw Obama for what he was, and lo and behold, they saw Bernie for what he was too... or at least they should have, after he capitulated if not before. Whether or not people like what they now think of Bernie, is irrelevant to the undeniable fact that he woke them all up. So why not leave the guy alone to do his thing, instead of bitching about the fact that he refuses to split the Dem Party in two? Bernie ain't no savior and he sure ain't no revolutionary either, and he never has been one, or even wanted to be one. He just woke a lot of people up, and that's all he ever really intended to do.

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native

Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

@native

What matters is that he woke millions of Americans up from a long sleep. Or maybe it was some kind of a weird Obama-trance. Whatever it was, Bernie snapped his fingers, and millions of people woke right up.
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@native
Nor what he raised money on.

He just woke a lot of people up, and that's all he ever really intended to do.
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Anja Geitz's picture

@HenryAWallace

I sure as shit didn't donate what little extra cash I had to Bernie's campaign to be where we are now, "awake" and powerless to effect change within a government that is happy to take our money and fuck us all in the ass while doing it.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

@HenryAWallace

my time and money were real- the sanders campaign, not so much.

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WaterLily's picture

@native That's it in a nutshell.

And he's still doing it. We can argue about whether or not he "should" or "shouldn't" be working from within the (D) party, but that argument is immaterial. Remember Bernie said, "Not me; us." He's shown us the rot and corruption and what a better future might look like. It's up to US to take over from here. And I believe that was truly his only goal.

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Anja Geitz's picture

@WaterLily

A year ago, I would have agreed with you. But now I see the "here" place we find ourselves in as a country where the Department of Homeland Security took over our entire electoral system and millions of people never heard about it. It's a place where the very political power structure we wish to topple has not only co-opted our elections, but the media into an all encompassing propaganda machine in their service. Even the idea of protesting in the streets has changed. Militarized police have little qualms to use tear gas on us, hose us, and beat us, if they are ordered to. And who gives the orders? Meanwhile the media takes their pound of flesh through their special brand of sabotage by either demonizing the protests or lying about it to the millions who are not yet "awake", if they report on it at all.

I'm not sure where that "here" place is where we can overcome fraudulent elections that are abetted by a media and controlled by the very people who paid for the results. Or where we can use our agency to effect change in peaceful protests that are sabotaged by law enforcement that is not enforcing the law. But if you find a place where we can overcome all of that, I'd like to know.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

WaterLily's picture

@Anja Geitz "Taking it from here" mostly feels futile. Sad

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Right is right. Election fraud should have been contested and investigated, in AZ in particular and all states with exit polls that were substantially off from the results.

Corruption is corruption and a corrupt oligarchy has to be fought. He should have bolted and run top of ticket for the Greens while he had the momentum and the odds going for him.

A huge difference would be that he lost instead of quit. He said he was in if to win it. Apparently he meant he was in it to win it as long as it didn't hurt Hillary or the Dems. The result would be that his credibility would still be in tact.

Having said all this, he did pull back the veil. He showed us that what we all thought to be true was true.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

@dkmich
against the DNC for stealing the nomination from him, it would have gotten some media attention. As it stands, few Americans are aware of the class action suit, or even who Seth Rich is. Malfeasance ignored.

I think it would have been a very big deal, had Bernie filed suit.

OTOH, I'm inclined to believe TPTB got to him. Remember, he was summoned to the mountaintop more than once.

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Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

@gustogirl The media gave attention to Trump's empty podium over Sanders. You trust them to give that lawsuit attention if Sanders was behind it instead?

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Thaumlord-Exelbirth Can't have it both ways. Either the media would have pilloried him for doing it as a Nader-spoiler, OR they would have engineered another Bernie Blackout. Can't be both.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal Sure I can. They can do a blackout on the lawsuit while shredding him on made up BS. Like the whole Russiagate thing they're doing with Trump.

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Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

@dkmich If it was Democrats that would have done it, then you already know what that outcome would have been: our queen is perfect and nothing would have changed. If it was Republicans, then they would want to make sure the weaker candidate would have the nomination, which would be Hillary, meaning nothing would have changed. The only way election fraud could have been investigated fairly is if we had unbiased independent investigators.

Corruption is corruption and a corrupt oligarchy has to be fought.

And if he had complained, he would be complaining to those very same corrupt oligarchs about their corruption. That's part of the problem with the idea of him trying to voice a complaint.

He should have bolted and run top of ticket for the Greens while he had the momentum and the odds going for him.

A huge difference would be that he lost instead of quit. He said he was in if to win it. Apparently he meant he was in it to win it as long as it didn't hurt Hillary or the Dems. The result would be that his credibility would still be in tact.

Had he done so and won, he would have been a been a president with both house and senate united against him. And if you think that would have changed the Democrats, I say you'd be wrong. They're paid to not change.
Had he done so and lost, he would be a pariah in the government with no political sway with anyone. He would become next to useless as a senator in that case.

I'm just assuming that's how it would go, and I admit that I'm a "glass is half empty" kind of guy, but when it comes to US politics, the pessimistic answer seems to usually be the correct one.

Having said all this, he did pull back the veil. He showed us that what we all thought to be true was true.

Which is a nice bonus to add to the focus shift on the population to thinks like universal healthcare, renewable energy, and tuition free college.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@dkmich I think we have taken transactional politics as far as we should, and it would be a good idea to go back to a politics based on ethics and principle.

The current argument in defense of Bernie seems to be a very Clintonian one. What practical effect would it have had, given that the other side has all the power and the establishment doesn't have to play fair?

It's an argument that can be used against any form of resistance. Why resist at all, really, given that if you do the establishment will do bad things to you, including destroy your reputation?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

He ran as this moral and principled candidate only to turn a blind eye toward voter fraud. If he had stood on principle and fought and lost, I could handle that. Instead, he duped his supporters. That pisses me off.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

@dkmich

yes, he did.

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In Defense Of Bernie Sanders

If Bernie had brought up the rigging of the primaries at the convention in Philadelphia:

The entire media and political establishment would have immediately either denied Sanders' evidence that the primaries were stolen from him or at least claimed that they were manipulated rather than stolen, and then set out to paint Sanders-not to mention anyone who shares his agenda-as a conspiracy kook, a sore loser, and generally the equivalent of Donald Trump. The Democratic elite wouldn't have given Sanders the nomination, let alone a chance to speak at the convention. And even if he'd run as a Green or an Independent, he wouldn't have stood a chance of winning the general election what with the massive efforts from the corporate media to characterize him as a sore loser for talking about the election fraud. And so Sanders would have had his reputation for the most part destroyed forever, along with all his chances at gaining leverage over the more powerful people in Washington, successfully running for president again, and generally doing the important work of helping lead the current post-election progressive movement.

There's a lot more to the article. The above is just an excerpt.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@LoneStarMike and then set out to paint Sanders-not to mention anyone who shares his agenda-as a conspiracy kook, a sore loser, and generally the equivalent of Donald Trump.

Talk about "how would it be different?"

Jesus. How pathetic, to choose to go along with the establishment in order to keep them from attacking your credibility with their attack-dog press.

In what sense have Sanders and his supporters NOT been painted as "conspiracy kooks,sore losers, and the equivalent of Donald Trump?" And by the way, you left out "dangerous criminal thugs who made Barbara Boxer fear for her life and shot at Republican congressmen."

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

gulfgal98's picture

First, the message. Bernie had the right message and he made people realize that their government was cheating them out of what it should be doing for them. As dk said, Bernie pulled back the curtain on the corruption in government and why people in this country never seem to be able to get ahead. He made health care and education a human right and promoted a federal minimum wage of $15 per hour, things no other politician was willing to talk about. These were not radical things but things that nearly every other developed country in the world provides to their citizens.

Second election fraud. I was very disappointed when Bernie did not follow his own attorneys advice to sue in Arizona. What was Bernie going to do? He probably had figured out that the primaries were rigged against him. But he is a politician first and fairly pragmatic so he did not challenge the results. I personally think he did a big disservice to his supporters by not challenging, but for him it was most likely a no win situation.

Third, the unity tour. I actually believe that Bernie took advantage of the Democratic party by going on the unity tour. To me, this was a win for Bernie, not the Democratic party. He was able to continue to get his message out on someone elses dime. It was obvious that he was far more popular than establishment Tom Perez.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Lily O Lady's picture

@gulfgal98

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"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

WaterLily's picture

@gulfgal98 Exactly right: a win-win for Bernie. The Dems couldn't argue he wasn't playing by the rules -- yet at the same time, he exposed (yet again) the Perez-backed establishment bullshit for what it is.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@gulfgal98 The Unity Tour was only a win for Bernie if his greater popularity than Tom Perez' translated into something meaningful in DC.

Since then, he has abandoned single payer for introducing a public option into the ACA--that's on the policy front--and said he doesn't know Tim Canova, rather than endorsing him in his fight with Debbie Wasserman-Schultz.

In what sense is Bernie changing the Democratic party? In what sense is the Democratic party changing Bernie?

To quote Donna Edwards' old chief of staff, "When you dance with the devil, the devil don't change."

I guess we could say that Chuck Schumer's "bold new economic agenda" is a result of Bernie Sanders' popularity on the Unity Tour, but I think it's more likely that the Democrats are failing so badly that they are no longer able to keep up their end of the kabuki competition between the parties--which makes their donors less likely to invest in them (two worst fundraising months since 2003). In any case, Schumer's "bold new agenda" will partake, so Schumer says, of advice from both Bernie Sanders and Joe Manchin, so that doesn't sound like progress to me. That sounds like bullshit.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

CS in AZ's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

the Democrats are failing so badly that they are no longer able to keep up their end of the kabuki competition between the parties--which makes their donors less likely to invest in them

Perhaps the real goal of the disunity tour wasn't to make the Democrats better - which is a lost cause - but to continue pulling back the curtain. By that measure it was absolutely a success, as the party continues bleeding and money is not coming in. Whether Bernie planned it that way or not, it worked to further erode the base of party support it was supposedly going to shore up. I consider that a win.

I'm not defending Bernie's apparent defection, I totally agree with you about his backing off single payer and DWS. These moves can't be defended logically, and I don't understand or agree with his choice to stick with the party. Especially when they keep using him as a punching bag regardless. But as for results, as long as the Dems are flailing and failing, it's headed in the right direction: into oblivion.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@CS in AZ You know what, I totally agree with you. I wish I thought Bernie were on board with the same idea, but sadly, I think he really is trying to make the Democratic Party better by working with them. But that is really a secondary concern to results--you're right about that.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1547215

The "short time" referenced in the post is from January 2007, when Bernie became a Senator, to January 2009, when Hillary left the Senate. During that time, Hillary was absent a lot to boot. So the statistic, a talking point of the Hillary campaign to make Hillary seem far more liberal during a Democratic primary than she is, is bogus (bogus with hypocrisy rampant being the Clinton family crest).

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@HenryAWallace

rampant on the Clinton crest. No positive id yet.

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that the function of post-secondary education is simply to create distinguishing categories of credentials by which society can be arbitrarily stratified.

pardon me while i projectile vomit.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

thanatokephaloides's picture

@UntimelyRippd

the function of post-secondary education is simply to create distinguishing categories of credentials by which society can be arbitrarily stratified.

That's a fact. And it always has been. Moreover, if anything, post-secondary education is more honest and democratic today than it has been in the decades where it wasn't so much a necessity as today.

And projectile vomiting is the appropriate response here. Bad

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

of them.

Here's the question: what would have changed if Bernie had stood up to the establishment?

Answer: Depends on what form his resistance took. If he had, for instance, led his delegates out of the convention and joined the protesters in the street, and announced the formation of a new People's Party, it would have changed a lot. Of course, there would have been repercussions for that, as Ed Rendell warned Bernie in his many comments about how Bernie had better keep his people in line.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

snoopydawg's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
why didn't he do or say anything about how his delegates were treated at the convention? There were whole sections of empty chairs where his delegates should have been. The lights were shut off in many sections of the theater.
I haven't seen one person address what happened at the convention. We all know what happened, but they act like if they don't talk about it, it will just go away.
The other thing that happened at the convention was they didn't let Nina Turner speak.
The convention was going to be run one way and one way only.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@snoopydawg I wasn't there, but wasn't there something about people holding up signs to block the Bernie delegates from view?

It's good to have people who are careful to remember these details, because these stories get flushed down the memory hole by the mainstream press and also, often, by us (you would be surprised how many times Democrats told me that Nader was the reason for Bush's win, apparently completely forgetting that Jeb Bush cheated. In fact, someone (an educated someone) brought up election fraud to me the other night, and I mentioned the 2000 election and they just looked at me blankly. What they wanted to talk about was the Russians and Hillary. In many frightening ways, what was so shocking that it inspired multiple books and movies and protests, at the time, and an attempt in Congress to refuse to certify the election, has now been normalized to the point of invisibility.

I'm making sure the Nevada thing and the Arizona thing don't go down the memory hole. Looks like you're one of the ones who's keeping the convention story from disappearing.

Sometimes I think we should do more than keep this stuff as oral history. It's scary how much people can forget how quickly. Most lefties act like the Howard Dean movement never happened. It's like they have a big hole where their memories of the years 2003-2010 should be. I suspect it's because remembering that requires remembering the end of that story, which was Obama, and the victory that wasn't.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

snoopydawg's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal the seats where his supporters were. There might have been more than one or two things happening at the convention.
I agree that it's important for no one to forget how far the democrats went to cheat Bernie from winning the primary.
I posted an article about how even though Hillary received less votes than Bernie, she still was awarded the win because of the delegates she lined up a year before she announced that she was running for president.
So when people say that Bernie lost by 4 million votes, let's remind them of how many people were kicked off the voting rolls and had their party affiliation changed. This would mean that of course Bernie would lose by more votes than Her.
If someone has to cheat to win, that says a lot about the person.
Hope you were able to read the article I posted a link to in another comment.
The person warned people a year before Bernie conceded that he would.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

@snoopydawg

They had Bernie tell her after she came to speak that night.

Nice touch.

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@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
to Clinton, the Democratic Party would very likely have split into two irreconcilable camps, resulting in an almost certain victory for Trump in the general. Surely this must have been in the forefront of Sanders' mind when he decided to "dance with the devil". I think it would have been very difficult for him to take sole personal responsibility for such a momentous, and potentially disastrous outcome. It would in effect have killed the Democrats' hopes of winning the 2016 election, and very possibly created an unbridgeable and fatal divide within the Party's electoral base.

Many of us would have applauded such an outcome, but it's not hard for me to understand why Sanders would have shied away from it. It was a case of too much power too soon, I would say. What in the world could he have done with it anyway? He was in no way prepared to deal with such a drastic scenario, because he had never intended to damage the Party. As it turned out, the Party did a fine job of damaging itself, and Sanders has now been assigned the thankless task of trying to patch it up.

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native

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@native To that I would say, if Sanders didn't want to do something momentous (and I agree with you that he didn't) he needed to consider long and hard before he ran a presidential campaign that challenged the Democratic party itself, which, whether he wanted to or not, was what he was doing. You cannot run as a New Deal Democrat, even a watered-down one, and not come into conflict with the Clinton machine, which at this point is indistinguishable from the Democratic party. They cannot tolerate competition from a power that subscribes to those older ideas.

I believe he was counting on his own smallness--the fact that only 3% of the population knew him, that he was not photogenic or wildly charismatic, that he is a self-proclaimed socialist (the fact that democratic socialists aren't the same thing as socialists is something so few Americans know that it would not matter), that he is from a small state, that he had no party support or PAC support--to keep his campaign from being perceived as a mortal threat by the Democratic Party/Clinton political machine. However, a decent caution would require that he make plans for all eventualities. At least, that's the kind of leadership I appreciate.

Hell, pretending to have a health problem and dropping out on that account would have been better than what he did.

As for this:

I think it would have been very difficult for him to take sole personal responsibility for such a momentous, and potentially disastrous outcome. It would in effect have killed the Democrats' hopes of winning the 2016 election, and very possibly created an unbridgeable and fatal divide within the Party's electoral base.

Perhaps I am overly philosophical--or more philosophical than Bernie Sanders, anyway--but from my point of view, the Democrats killed their hopes of winning the 2016 election when they chose someone who 1)can't campaign her way out of a paper bag, 2)was already hated by significant numbers of people on the right and the left, 3)had already been rejected by the American people once, and 4)was facing multiple criminal investigations. Oh, and 5)had a history of starting off with high numbers which subsequently did nothing but decrease more and more the more she appeared before the public. Oh, Jesus--and 6)came up with the brilliant strategy of instructing the media to give her general election opponent $5 billion dollars in earned media, which must be the largest in-kind donation I've ever seen made to a political campaign. It is the equivalent of taking a firehose filled with gasoline and spraying a campfire with it at full force for an hour. Then at the end you clutch your pearls and say "Oh, no, there's a forest fire!"

Did I mention that Hillary doesn't understand campaign politics? Apparently neither do her top advisors.

I'm now putting aside both my activist hat and my voter hat and putting on my campaign manager hat. Choosing Hillary as the Democratic candidate--and I mean when the choice was actually made, not at the convention, but years before--was ineptitude so great that it approaches malfeasance. If there were such a thing as political malpractice, this would be it. As would the campaign's primary strategy of attempting to bully the American people into voting for a candidate no one should have chosen to run in the first place.

There were times when I actually considered that Hillary 2016 might be an anti-campaign, that the establishment actually wanted Trump in and that they were actively trying to make people hate her more, because I couldn't imagine that great a level of incompetence among such highly-paid people. That was obviously not the case. But when I expected a Hillary "win" on that morning in November, it was only because I expected she would have the count rigged. Fraud was the only conceivable way that I thought she could win, especially after it became clear that her support among African-Americans was dropping and clearly both she and Obama were afraid that Black people wouldn't turn out to vote. I was shocked that Trump won, not because I was amazed the actual vote count had turned out that way, but because I was amazed that anybody successfully countered the fix that I had assumed was in place.

As for this: and very possibly created an unbridgeable and fatal divide within the Party's electoral base
, well, mission accomplished. Hillary 2016's approach to the other half of the Party's electoral base would be almost enough to ensure that unbridgeable and fatal divide on its own; Bernie's behavior, far from keeping the unbridgeable gap from occurring, put the final piece in place that ensured that it would occur.

Which is more likely to keep people within the party, after the lead candidate blatantly cheated the insurgent candidate and his supporters, and her supporters dealt out nothing but bullying, abuse, and gaslighting to those supporters for months?

Giving at least the pretense of some power to the insurgent, giving his base the idea that gaining power within the Democratic party was a possibility?

or

Kicking the insurgent and his supporters in the face repeatedly, continuing to bully and insult them, giving them no concessions, not even mere window-dressing, and then having the former insurgent stump around the country telling his former base that the lead candidate will accomplish progressive policies, which they know is a lie, and that they must vote for her to stop Trump, which was the same campaign message she ran on that failed to quell his insurgency in the first place? Turning Bernie into an echo of the Clinton campaign after giving him and his supporters nothing merely made it obvious to his supporters that they could expect nothing within the Democratic party and might as well leave.

She would have done far better (and again, I'm not talking as a moral person, a citizen, or an activist, but as a campaign staffer) to make him her Vice-President, which, as John Adams once said, is a position singularly lacking meaning or power, and to throw her support behind one or two of his policy positions, which later could have been helpfully shot down by her allies on the other side of the aisle, after which she could get in front of a camera and say how sorry she was it failed, but Republicans are bad.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

Stein had offered to step aside. Greens on the ballot.

gets 15% polls easy.

on to the debates.

who do you like in the debates?

that is right. Sanders wins, so big they can't steal it.

we had it! their cheating made it possible for Bernie to bolt without being dishonest. In fact he was honor bound to rebel for sake of his supporters. But no.

Now he doesn't know from Canova.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Why should I follow Bernie when everything he has been doing since last June has supported the establishment?

Answer: No reason.

Question #2: Why am I being so mean to Bernie, who did such a good thing for all of us by running that campaign?

Answer: I'm not. I actually sympathize with Bernie. But he has nothing left to offer in the way of leadership other than excuses to get back in line with the Democratic establishment. People who want those justifications will follow him. Those that don't, won't.

Denying Tim Canova after declaring a political revolution based on primarying corporate Democrats should be the last straw for anybody who is looking for something other than reasons to feel better about staying within the establishment fold.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

k9disc's picture

trumps systemic critique.

This piece screamed at me, not that the Hill People don't get Sanders' impact, but that they fake Democratic principles. Once you scratch the surface they are complete moderate Republicans. Their arguments drip with corporate sponsored meritocracy, wealth, and celebrity worship.

Solidarity is lost on them.

And of course this also gets to the point of fact that it's probably a paid shill.

These systemic issues are what came to mind with my reading of this essay. I think they are far more important than Bernie's creds or intents.

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“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@k9disc It is kind of scary how easy it is for personalities to trump (heh) systemic problems, political problems, policy problems. Even when partisanship is discarded. attachment to particular politicians remains.

The funny thing is, I *am* still attached to Bernie. I just don't feel any need to justify his actions since last June. I think it's because the fundamental metaphor I am using to explain all this to myself is different than most people's.

Last June and July, when I looked at Bernie, I felt like rank and file troops watching the enemy parade a captured officer in front of us. A well-liked and respected officer. I see Bernie as captured, and compromised via some form of leverage rather than bribery. So I don't see a sell-out or a con--I see someone who was taken prisoner. Although that's a bit melodramatic, it enables me to understand everything he's done since as being more or less ventriloquism, with him being the wooden doll.

It reminds me of a scene from A Wrinkle in Time:

Calvin looked up at the man with red eyes. "Okay, have your henchmen let us go and stop talking to us through Charles. We know it's you talking, or whatever's talking through you."

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

the movement we were originally part of. It was a movement of independent minds. Bernie knew, even at the height of his popularity, that he couldn't guarantee his supporters would do what he said. He told people he couldn't throw his support to Clinton, because "it doesn't exactly work that way." In fact, he said we shouldn't listen to him if he told us who to vote for.

He also said "It's not about Bernie Bernie Bernie. It's about you." This statement has now been twisted to mean "Bernie can never be held accountable for his actions, because that means you're expecting something from Bernie, and you shouldn't be. You can't say that Bernie has done something wrong or done less than he should because that means you're expecting Bernie to fix things and save you, and really it's only you who can be held accountable." Which is just one more version of the same narrative of voter-blaming and public-blaming that Democrats usually engage in when they want to excuse their leaders' failings.

But what "it's not about Bernie Bernie Bernie. It's about you" really meant was that the personality of Bernie Sanders was not supposed to be central to the movement or its concerns. No one person was supposed to be central. The people, collectively, were supposed to be the central focus of the movement. "Not me, us." (Which is a wonderful slogan because it can mean so many wonderful things at once.)

Focusing so much energy on whether or not Bernie is a sufficiently good guy, whether he's done wrong and why and how, is contrary to the spirit of "It's not about Bernie Bernie Bernie. It's about you," and "Not me, us." What are we trying to preserve here? Bernie's leadership over us? His authority? His credibility? I thought the movement wasn't about that.

Analysis of Bernie's actions only matters to me inasmuch as I need to decide whether or not to follow him where he's going. After about a year, his actions have confirmed for me that I don't. I don't have a persistent focus on him, though. I don't tend to write essays about how and why he's gone wrong. I pretty much only ever talk about this when people write essays saying we should follow Bernie--when I respond "I won't, and here's why"--and when people write essays criticizing the people who disagree with Bernie.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver