Has This All Gone Too Far?
I'm a bit worried about the state of America at the moment. My friends and family are suggesting we should invoke Article 25 to have DJT removed from office. After 9 days of being President.
This strikes me as being a bit harsh, because I don't see any "the republic is on the brink" reasons to invoke this clause for the first time in the nation's history. By the way, this is by no means a defense of DJT or his henchmen, or his negligently underqualified cabinet.
Beyond the rationale for removal, it's more than unrealistic to suggest a 25th Amendment removal because it requires the vice-president to join with one of the legislative bodies in declaring the president unfit. Do you really think that could happen after one week in office? The Democrats can't even bring themselves to withhold Senatorial consent, but in confirmation of the Left's wholesale detachment from reality, the idea is being floated earnestly.
Does anyone really think removing Trump from office is a rational idea? Based on what, exactly? Did any of those reasons exist before he won the election, or before he won the nomination? Why weren't those reasons brought forward with as much vehemence then? Wouldn't that be the logical thing to do?
We didn't see a million people on the mall when Trump lied his ass off during the GOP debates because the Democrats were too busy rubbing their hands with glee in hopes that he would become the GOP nominee.
But as soon as he won the election, boom! You never knew there was so much outrage.
To paraphrase the Democrats circa 2016, 'we want Trump to be the candidate but if he wins it's unacceptable.'
DJT scares me, but the cognitive dissonance from the Left scares me even more. There's a difference between being the loyal opposition and an irrational expectation that the President should be removed from office after a week.
I see a pattern here, beginning with the protests of the election results, morphing into support for a recount, then encouraging faithless electors to install HRC, then impeachment and now this Article 25 b.s. None of these paths has a speck of a chance but they are all being worked in succession.
There hasn't been a single thing that he's done since the election where the Left didn't go ZOMG!!! The way I see it, it doesn't matter what he does because the reaction is going to be exactly the same. The driving forces behind Trump opposition aren't really reacting to anything as they are just sowing the seeds of revolution and deligitimacy. They accuse his governing style of being a coup d'etat when they themselves are planning that very thing.
I would say that for the past 20 years there HAS been a silent coup on the U.S. Government. That's my working hypothesis here, one which I've been working on for a few months: The coup happened 20 years ago when no one was paying attention. The government is no longer of, by and for the people, but for the special interests and big power. Every President, nearly every member of Congress, is a corrupt traitor. Does it really matter how right I am? The facts remain, Congressmen have an uncanny ability to amass great wealth while in office, the working class has actually had negative wage growth, due largely in part to trade deals made by these same congressmen. You can see the proof every day in America.
Meanwhile an obvious miscarriage of justice has occurred, swept under the rug as it were, amid a public internal battle testing loyalties within our intelligence agencies. Think about that for a minute - within the FBI and the CIA there are two factions vying for power. James Comey made a significant announcement before the election based on salient new evidence which he claims to have seen. Some say he way lying, which is to say he invented the entire thing and then called a press conference two weeks before the election in an attempt to install a candidate who is in league with the Russians. That would make James Comey the most despicable man in United States' history.
Hillary had classified documents on her private server which could only have been manually removed from a secure government location, she should be in prison with no if's and's or butts. But that's just the tip of the iceberg as far as transgressions at the state department, where Huma was coordinating Clinton Foundation donations with State Department access. WTF? How could that get swept under the rug? But it's not just Hillary, Obama has his own shit, and we all know Dick Cheney is the poster boy for government graft. NAFTA sold the country down the river and the corporations took the receipts.
I only offer these facts suggesting a treasonous government in order to posit the question: If there really was treason at the highest levels of the government, how would one go about fixing the problem? If most of congress and the past 3 presidents were in league to self enrichen, how could one possibly uncover and resolve that? The situation is neigh impossible to resolve barring an actual coup.
But what would it look like? First, you'd have to have a self-financed candidate win the election without becoming beholden to the power elite who manipulate the media and hence popular sentiment...
I won't spoon feed you the details, but my point is that one would expect our deus ex machina to look a lot like DJT, and the reaction from anyone facing justice would be to orchestrate the Left to begin a pre-emptive attack upon the one meting out that justice, exactly like the protests of the past 90 days.
I don't profess to know whether Trump is gonna be the best thing for America, or the worst. What I do know is that someone has a lot to gain by building a massive resistance to Trump, and that person is trying to play us.
Comments
It is possible that the more outrageous Trump is allowed to get
The more political damage will be done to the entire establishment. Unfortunately, before too long, there could be many victims.
Beware the bullshit factories.
"20 years" is either rounded up from 16,
or an under-estimate. I tend to think it's probably the latter, since we have spinelessly allowed the Lapdog Media to hand-pick Corporate Party candidates for us for more like 40 years.
It got worse 16 years ago, when the losing candidate was declared the "winner" and installed by Supreme Court fiat. That was a blatant, overt coup, but not enough people gave a damn - not even the actual winner of the election.
That farce made this one inevitable.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
More like 50-60 years.
I count it from the day of the Kennedy assassination.
@TheOtherMaven Thank you.
Thank you.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I think he should be removed, he's unfit to be president
of this country. Yes, he proved that before he was elected. But if it happens it won't be for the right reasons and won't bring the right results. Trump and his regime are dangerous but they'd be replaced with much the same, we should know that by now. We have to change this political system so we don't face these choices.
@Big Al President Pence?
President Pence? President Ryan?
Hmm.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
In times as these...
Kipling seems particularly appropriate...
Then again...
so does Chic:
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
@Not Henry Kissinger If you can bear to hear
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools:
Not sure I can quite do that. In fact, there's a few things he talks about that I'm not sure I can do. I do my best.
But then again, I'm not a man, my son LOL
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Yes, the noisy Left is really terrifying lately.
Joe McCarthy rides again, only much worse, much more viciously.
They are attacking the legitimacy of our whole political system, not really an individual. I am so sorry that I worked so hard for Obsma in 2008.
I should have written "Left"
because what's going on is not principled, just "I'm going to hold my breath until I turn blue," or maybe a screaming tantrum is a better analogy. Either way it's ugly, like smashing dishes.
@Sunspots Well, yes, and no.
Well, yes, and no.
First, I agree with the spirit of your comment. But frankly, the Left would do much better to attack the legitimacy of our political system because, well, it's now illegitimate.
I mean, nobody here thinks this is a Republic, do they, much less a democracy? Everything about this shit is illegitimate. As the man says, "The last vestiges of the old Republic are being swept away."
In fact, what we're seeing is the Left absolutely shirk its/our responsibility, which is PRECISELY to criticize and even attack our political system when it has broken bits that need to be fixed, or when it's gotten so borked that it needs to be torn down and replaced. We can murder 8-year-old girls but we can't keep our bridges from falling down and killing hundreds of people. We jail people for years for posting a link on the internet, but when people commit fraud and nearly destroy the global financial system through their crimes, leaving people everywhere around the world flying off into the abyss like they've been spun off a centrifuge, we hand them piles of money and get on our knees. This all sounds pretty fucked to me. And the last election cycle should have proved that the system is beyond saving, even for those who might want to.
We should be focused on HOW we got Trump. If people don't want to go back to 1963, 1968, the Powell memo in 1971, the rise of Reagan in 1980, the consolidation of both parties under corrupt right-wingers in 1994 (Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich are nasty pieces of work), the election fraud of 2000, the election fraud of 2004, Patriot Acts 1 and 2, or even Obama, if it's too complicated and tiring to go back that far, then perhaps we could just think back six months or so.
People are literally telling me they're sick of hearing about how the Clinton campaign got us Trump. Now Trump is in, so we're going to stop thinking about how he got here, and just hate the Bad Man and his supporters.
Yeah, that'll bring change all right. That's a great way to achieve greater independence from the mass-murdering liars who run our society. Just get mad at the Bad Man and his party.
I mean, after all, that worked so well on Bush. Remember how much better things got after we removed the Bad Man and his Bad Party?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Yeah on that not thinking it through
thing. My neighbor yesterday and the horror of Trump but when I say he's only the culmination of all the ugliness inherent in our politics I get the not quite glassy stare but definitely the metaphorical shrug and a polite end to that conversation. They are Republicans who admittedly voted for Hillary because Trump is "too scary" and I don't know them well enough to hit a full rant but I was close to it. But what's the point? They don't listen and do not want to hear it, period. Far easier to think Trump is some aberration and not the product of just what they've voted for over the last 30 to 40 years - that might make them responsible for it somehow and we CAN'T have that.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Good points, but pulling down a system involves lots of blood,
most of that blood ours. Given the horrific costs, I'd rather not leap off that cliff until it's absolutely and immediately necessary.
There's a Scott Adams blog post up,
http://blog.dilbert.com/post/156532225711/the-persuasion-filter-and-immi...
that's interesting. He thinks that "Trump is negotiating with his critics on the extreme right at the same time as he is negotiating with his critics on the left. He needed one “opening offer” that would set up both sides for the next level of persuasion. And he found it. You just saw it."
I don't know if he's right. We'll have to see. I don't think Trump is actually a Republucan any more than he's a Democrat. Their Establishment certainly didn't want him nominated or elected.
@Sunspots
Thanks for the link, but I must point out that the evidently-propagandized-into-tolerating-fascist-US governmental-behaviour author needs to understand there's a difference between addressing future problems from current activities, such as 'keeping it in the ground' and switching to greener tech now in order to avoid further worsening climate change issues, and targeting to groundlessly detain every incoming innocent who has so much as visited certain countries - purportedly to prevent not any anticipated current problems with individuals or groups but any potential future? terrorist attacks by other people from any of these countries having produced no such terrorist attacks before and going way past arbitrary detention for anyone's potential own thought-crimes, and into Official Dictator Extreme Paranoia Of Everyone Even If Not Yet Born territory - to hold them isolated in a manner that would be horrifying to all if done in, say, Russia. Especially when ordered by a President who claims to think that torture 'works' and is, therefore, A Good Thing.
I certainly have not been remotely reassured by this reasoning, even if Trump is 'only eleventy-odd dimension level chess negotiating' in an authoritarian fashion certainly not acceptable in any civilized/democratic country.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Propagandized?
**EDIT** I'm so sorry Ellen. I thought when you referred to a propagandized author you meant me. Take this retort to apply to the Clintonistas who wail about Trump's domestic energy policy.
If you believe that Obama's 11th hour stay of KXL somehow put the Democrats on the side of the good guys, and you just want to forget that KXL and DAPL were proceeding under his administration until there was a sufficient public outcry to warrant he back down (there was an election to win, after all), and completely deny that it was Hillary who came up with the cockamamie "responsible fracking" version of the truth, well then who are you to lecture me about being propagandized.
“He may not have gotten the words out but the thoughts were great.”
@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal Well said CSTS....My
Well said CSTS....My Rant!!The people choosing our president are the very ones Eisenhower warned about. They now have mercenary armies that exceed the power of most nations, are willing to use them to assert that power, even here in our own cities. Our leadership willingly pays them billions in aid, and DoD funds while they spew hatred in the name of some god they feel is superior, and excuses their hatred of societies not like ours. Until we turn off our televisions, quit living in the safety of our computer screens, get off our fat asses and demand accountability in our own homes, communities, cities, states, and country, we will continue to wallow in self pity as leaders like Trump, Clinton, Pelosi, Ryan, McConnell, Shumer, et al, make shambles of our economy, shame our nation, and wage permanent war for enrichment of themselves, and their masters.
We live in a reality TV show, and we got exactly what we deserve for feeding the monster that will ultimately devour us. Americans are pussies. We can't even look in the mirror without blaming others for our plight, or reinforcement from some enabler on our favorite 24-7 news show. We live in a complex world that is being narrowly defined by the media because we are too lazy to reach out, to engage, to think for ourselves, to share with those less fortunate, to learn from those more capable, more compassionate, more peaceful...they surround us...if only we would look down from our Ivory Towers.
Shoot your TV and other screens that suck you in. Think with your heart. It is time we look up and see one another as we pass by rather than hiding our noses and eyes staring at some corporate master's magic blue jewel. Time to smell both the roses, and the shit that makes them grow.
@Scheindog Scheindog, that is a
Scheindog, that is a truly inspired rant. You breathed some life back into me.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal Thanks...I feel
Thanks...I feel better
@Sunspots
Well, the current political system is not remotely legitimate - and neither have been a number of elections, including this one.
If there was to be any pretense of democracy remaining, there'd be a complete re-do, with Bernie in.
Edit: lol, after writing this saw Can't Stop The Signal's epic rant and stand in awe even more than previously.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
@Ellen North Why thank you.
Why thank you.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Let President Douche-bag Reign
Maybe it will wake the Merican people the fuck up and they will abandon these two neoliberal-fascist parties. Next stop, full blown Banana Republic.
Although I think people still hold out hope for the fascist Dems to come save us. There were lots of "I'm With Her" signs at the women's rallies. And they let fascists like Wasserman-Shultz take the stage to co-opt the rally.
Then Schumer's crocodile tears at the immigration ban. Oh Pleazzzzze. Wall St Whore Schumer couldn't give a rats azz about refugees and immigrants. But lots fools bought the act.
Nope, I think the country is fucked.
Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.
I hope when you refer to the left in your essay
that you are referring to the casuistic left and not the true progressives. Anywho. Invoking article 25, especially if it is focusing on mental health is gonna be tough. Yep. Drumpf is crazier than a shit house rat. He has been unofficially diagnosed as having NPD, which is be obvious even to the laity; but would that be enough to find him unfit? A test that would take too many resources and too much effort. As it is, the Dems, I think, have finally learned how to restart the pilot light. He may actually prove it while fighting such a charge.
Who knows. He may stroke out any day now, or maybe something really outlandish will occur, such as Drumpf and Bannon are somehow motivated to fulfill a secret mutual suicide pact made years ago. Not in the Oval Office, please. Ok, enough silliness.
Focus should return to the emoluments clause by those who want him out. Pence is worse. As time marches on and Drumpf continues to piss off the entire world, he will become less and less effective -- neutered even. Hopefully, some subversive in the DOD will exchange the daily nuclear codes and challenge response cards with scratch-off tickets. That could distract him for days.
WE need to focus on his FAR LEFT replacement.
"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage
@sojourns Sorry, we can't focus on
Sorry, we can't focus on what we want. We can't even focus on the true nature of the thing we're opposing, and hate that.
There's a bad man over there and we have to do something. We need to get out in the street and wave signs at him. If we are very successful, we will get him removed from office. As we cheer and high-five each other, President Pence will be installed.
When he is, suddenly the media and the cops will revert to their ordinary ways of dealing with protesters. The massive media coverage and the cops high-fiving protesters will magically stop, and we'll be back to media blackouts and people's arms being shot off.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Thanks, but my general sense is not so defeatist
or fatalistic.
"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage
@sojourns
I'm afraid that Can't Stop The Signal is merely being realistic.
A legitimate election is needed and probably not possible with Homeland Security between the process and stated results and any independent/citizen oversight.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
One of the many Trump dangers...
...is that he is dismantling institutions, many of which are in place to check his power as Potus. While we need some institutional realignment, he is using a wrecking ball not a scalpel.
Please don't confuse the Dems and their supporters as Left
The coup happened when the CIA assassinated JFK and LBJ greenlit the escalation in Vietnam like a good little boy should do.
Yes, the "women's march" was a brilliant piece of disruption - halved the protest with a single word and the Dems bought into it hook, line, sinker. Wasting their time.
Look how Nate Parker was taken down over a dismissed rape allegation the very moment he releases a movie critical of US racism and slavery. Not in any of the years before he had a movie out, just this time.
Either a third party rises and sweeps the Dems aside or 1789/1917. There are no other options when the numbers of people who could not raise $500 inflates geometrically day on day.
ZOMG more left infighting...
Yes almost everything that Trump has done is ZOMG worthy. But we don't need to do much, his White House according to Digby will self-implode. At least it is starting to look like that.
So Mike Flynn is too extreme for the extremists.
( Want more? http://www.salon.com/2017/01/31/signs-of-trouble-on-team-trump-jeff-sess...)
And I hope the protests continue because the people in power hate them. I don't understand why they are hated so much on this site though.
To thine own self be true.
@MarilynW What makes you think the
What makes you think the people in power hate them?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@MarilynW I can assure you that
I can assure you that Trump doesn't hate the protests. He thrives on people hating him and opposing him. That's his entire persona.
As long as he has a place where he can retreat with his like-minded rich buddies and have sex with high-class call girls (who I hope are being paid really well), having crowds of people he doesn't respect scream at him might actually be a high:
https://vimeo.com/62622471
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Agreed, but Trump isn't the only one
who sees them and while I agree they are not terribly effective, I think it DOES piss of the PTB enough that they hate it. It also raises the risk that more people just might wake the hell up, and they surely do not like that. I know Democrats are co-opting it but I am of the mind lately that doing something is better than doing nothing, and I hope like hell some of the "wiser" PTB are nervous as hell about it. Small victory maybe but better than nothing.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
@lizzyh7 The reason I don't
The reason I don't believe that the PTB hate it:
4 out of the 5 major media corporations gave extensive coverage to the marches. It was on the front page of the Washington Post.
And in at least one venue, cops were high-fiving the protesters.
No, the PTB don't hate it. The PTB are promoting it.
This is how the PTB act when they hate it (trigger warnings for both these videos):
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2016/nov/21/dakota-access-pipe...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRAxu4flK1M
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
The PTB hate protests because they challenge their power
"they've got the guns but we've got the numbers."
Nixon for example flew into a rage when he saw ONE protestor outside the White House with a sign. For Nixon, opponents didn't even need numbers.
To thine own self be true.
@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
I think everyone's supposed to beg for the Mad Bomber to become President and put them out of their misery using 'clean, atomic energy'.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Trump cancelled his trip to Harley Davidson
in Milwaukee because he found out there would be protestors.
To thine own self be true.
Harley Davidson canceled the visit.
They were threatened with protests and boycotts from The Left if they hosted a visit by Trump. One American company among many being intimidated by lefties.
Trump was forced to cancel
Donald Trump forced to cancel Harley-Davidson factory visit over large planned protests
The article mentions working-class Democrats, people from all walks of life, a coalition against Trump. Nothing about The Left.
To thine own self be true.
Gimme a break.
These protests are astroturfed. There's no popular uprising against Trump. Anybody that believes that is highly gullible.
@edg Yes, it's
Yes, it's astroturfed. But the people doing the astroturfing are mining genuine emotions among the populace. It's not like the people like Trump. They hate him almost as much as they hate Hillary Clinton. Most people experienced Clinton vs Trump as a disgusting thing forced down their throats. Whichever candidate got in was going to take the full brunt of the people's resentment of the last year. The bastards around and behind Hillary Clinton have wasted no time manipulating and channeling this resentment into completely crap channels that will result in strengthening and stabilizing the establishment, and keeping any real challenge to its power from arising.
It's people's refusal to see that last bit that leaves me pretty much without hope.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
You have your opinon
I have my opinion on the protests. The difference between us is that I don't insult those who disagree with me.
To thine own self be true.
@edg
About time - but why not over their various polluting/abusive activities; why wait and do it to Harley over a Trump visit, unless this whole mess, protests and all, is expected to trigger a demand for President 'It's Her Turn To Bomb The World Into The Radioactive Lava Age!' Hillary from (the paid portions) of the protesting citizenry and a few disinformed others?
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
I disagree. Drumpf is a thin-skinned wuss who surrounds himself
with Yes-Men. He neither understands protest, having been scarfing from the silver spoon and surrounded by sycophants who believe they'll get access to his perceived success, nor likes it. He lives in a Neoliberal/RW bigot bubble behind velvet ropes, surrounded by security detail and bathes in the most gaudy, ugly ostentatious settings befitting a cheeseball Jersey Shore neighbor. He knows absolutely nothing of the country's history and its struggles, the dignity of which oppressed people have reclaimed in such things as protest to petition for their rights against an unresponsive government. From his ivory tower all he has to do, as he admitted during the Repug debates, was payoff the right people's campaigns for access and preferential treatment.
Everything would be pointing toward him being scared shit of the "optics" of protest. It runs the risk of showing his supporters that he is so deeply despised, and that potentially bursts their bubble when they have to confront such reality, which instead of bolstering support ultimately erodes it in the face of the sheer overwhelming numbers who will show up everywhere to passionately oppose him or his policies.
To wit, let's not forget that when he announced his intention to run, as cheesy as possible, at the top of the escalator of Drumpf Towers, he actually paid people to stand as supporters.
He also tried to pawn off the cancellation of a rally appearance in Chicago last year on the police, so that he could get sympathy from his supporters that he was under siege by a mob. Only problem was the police never suggested he cancel it. He did, on his own, because he is scared of being face to face with people, many people in fact, who despise him.
He's also on record, ore than a few times, encouraging and baiting his supporters to attack protesters ("in my day these guys would be taken out on stretchers").
Protests, like much else outside of his silver-spoon/anti-intellectual goon philosophy purview, are threatening to him. He hates protests.
"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:
THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC"
- Kurt Vonnegut
Bravo Mark!
don't stop.
To thine own self be true.
@Mark from Queens Excellent Mark!! I
Excellent Mark!! I fully agree. If edg feels the disgust for Trump is astroturfed, he needs to get out more often and listen to the disgust coming from every quarter.
@Scheindog That is not, and
That is not, and never has been, the point. Of course people despise Trump. They despised him (58% unfavorables) on the day they voted him into office.
It's no news that the 2nd-most unpopular candidate of the last 50 years would inspire disgust upon reaching the Oval Office. The question is: where is the outrage being channeled, toward what end, and by whom?
"Astroturfed" doesn't have to mean "the participants aren't genuine." You think the Tea Partiers didn't genuinely hate Obama and the Dems? Yet that was absolutely an astroturf organization, not dedicated to the well-being of its rank-and-file at all.
If what people want is to feel real good because they expressed their beliefs surrounded by a huge number of people doing the same thing, and that's what they look to get out of a protest, then they should keep it up. I expect that's what people are going to do. Trying to tell them not to is no different than trying to tell a devout Southern Baptist not to go to church on Sunday. Protesting is assumed to be an absolute and essential good. Therefore, the outcomes of protesting are also assumed to be good. Strategic analysis is not welcome under such conditions. The faithful don't like it.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Colonialism shaped inequality - old process now more visible
Disease was a big issue and ..
How Colonialism Shaped Modern Inequality
You're right about everything except your assessment
of Trump as someone who gives a genuine shit.
I'm more inclined to think he is, or was, working with the Clintons, running against Hillary and playing up the shitty sides of his character to give her a cakewalk into the White House, while the DNC and the press worked the same strategy from the other side (the Pied Piper strategy). No doubt if Hill had gotten in, Trump would have gotten some quiet payoff through the Clinton Foundation. But then he actually won. That wasn't part of the plan.
But then, the Clintonistas thought, so what? What's an election, anyway? It's not like this is a real Republic. We don't have to obey tradition. We'll just keep our campaign running, and the Pied Piper strategy running too. As Trump does terrible things in office, we'll hype those terrible things as loudly as possible, through all the media we own. Hell, let's start doing it before he's even inaugurated, before he does anything as president. We'll send people out in the streets to protest the bad right-wing man, which has the additional benefit of keeping the Left occupied so that they don't inconvenience us in any way.
What I'm genuinely unsure of is whether Trump is still playing a role for the Clintons, willingly, or if he got enamoured of the idea of being President somewhere along the way. I don't think the Presidency itself was one of Donald Trump's priorities--I think he was just garnering some notoriety and trying to get some book deals, movie deals, tv shows, etc. But once it looked like he was going to actually get it....Well, let's put it this way. Donald Trump's ego is not small. I'm guessing the idea of being President started to look better and better to him once he had it.
The entire thing is a distraction and a way to set the American people at each other's throats. And it's already starting. Check out my Open Thread. Someone posted a story there about a guy running over someone (purposefully). The guy who did it was mentally ill. He believed he was killing Trump.
It's starting, just like I feared it would. Expand the race war, start an ideological war. Popularize the idea of violence.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
These are some incredible conspiracy theories you've thought up
@burlydee Goodness. I must have
Goodness. I must have come up in the world.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Well I, for one, completely agree with you theories,
It's a reality show, AND a WWF match.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
I agree, also, as do many others.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
@Ellen North Thank you guys.
Thank you guys.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
On that same page
Trump and Clinton are friends. He was invited to Chelsea's wedding. Your theory meshes with what I always thought, which is that Trump was trying to lose the primary, but he couldn't shake his supporters stuck to him like a bad piece of bubblegum. His #1 asset is the value of his name, which has taken a hit in the past few years. A presidential run, another book, that name could be worth another billion. And yeah, somewhere along the way he got enamored with the thought of being president. Or else he believed all that internet shitposting from anonymous FBI agents alleging high crimes at the Clinton Foundation and thought he could be like a president-superhero. That would be the best. Just the best.
“He may not have gotten the words out but the thoughts were great.”
I'm not sure
what we need to do in the short run that would do any good. I expect what is going to happen will be the r's endgame. Everything they ever campaigned on, every nutty idea from their think tanks will be brought to a vote. The Dems will be irrelevant, they'll be lucky to even know what legislation will be that's going to be voted on in 5 minutes. Forget redistricting, forget fairness. What have countries done that have gone this far, over the edge, to come back from this kind of damage? and will it work here? I fear the D's will still be fighting over the leadership scraps leftover from the destruction of the party.
Yes, buy popcorn futures
The R's have always been willing to go the extra mile in partisan warfare, but with Trump it appears as though they are really turning up the full asshole. Last week KAC refused to reveal the content of two Executive Orders which Trump had signed that day. I can totally see them withholding bills until just before they are presented for a vote.
MAYBE the Democrats will fight back, but I doubt they will. They are so worried about optics, even when combatting those who won't play like gentlemen. A plague on both their houses, I say!
“He may not have gotten the words out but the thoughts were great.”
Yeah, It's all Hillary's fault!
Er, it's all the fault of the Center for American Progress! Um, Democracy for America! I mean... Our Revolution!
Unnh! Unnh! oooooh!
Geez, this is just more jackoff material for C99Pers.
I guess I expect too much.
For at least another hundred years we must pretend to ourselves and to everyone that fair is foul and foul is fair; for foul is useful and fair is not. Avarice and usury and precaution must be our gods for a little longer still.
John Maynard Keynes, 1930
Well Kurt
if you have a substantive comment to make about this essay or the comments posted here, please enlighten us. What you have posted is simply an ad hominem attack on the community, which, believe it or not, is not all of one mind regarding Mr. Trump or Ms. Clinton or anything else for that matter.
Then again, maybe making random insults of people you know nothing about is all you wanted to do. If so, mission accomplished.
"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott
Like the substantive comment with 12 recommends wondering
if Trump is an agent of the Clintons. This website is off the rails.
Go back and look at some of those infamous
emails and then accuse this site of "going off the rails" once again. HER campaign pushed the media to give Trump as much publicity as they could because they were so damned smug and arrogant to think that would cause him to lose and guarantee her a win. Didn't quite work out for them, did it? So, if you still think this site is off the rails then why are you on it?
While CSTS and I don't necessarily agree on what actual protesting might accomplish, CSTS is hardly some conspiracy nut who's talking out her ass here. We have been set up so many times, what on earth would make you think there's any tiny shred of honesty or integrity to ANY politician or our media? You really think they don't collude with each other? Go on back to Wikileaks and then come on back here and say that.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
@lizzyh7 thanks, Lizzy.
thanks, Lizzy.
Of course, I consider the term "conspiracy theorist" to be a badge of honor, mainly because of who usually uses the term and why.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@burlydee
Lol, and therefore you're here just to Correct The Record by derailing us?
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
@burlydee
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@Kurt from CMH Well, she came up with
Well, she came up with the Pied Piper strategy. She's the one that told the media to "elevate Trump's campaign."
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Oh, don't be a dick.
"Yeah, It's all Hillary's fault!"
I don't agree with your assessment of this article. Hillary Rodham Clinton is one opportunist among many. There is no question that she is trying to play us. If we-all (not just those active on this site) can fix the system her options will become limited as she and her kind fade into the aether.
I look forward to a day when we can say this all is in our past.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5znh58WITU8]
Off Topic
Don't find many folks who use aether, especially those who spell it as such.
Though you did say you were a physicist, so kind of makes sense after all ha.
It holds a special place in my heart.
And, if you know its history and fate in my community you will see I have used the word with malice aforethought.
Another classy comment from a Hillary supporter.
You guys are always so nice! No wonder everybody loves her.
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
You showed your tell
Hahahahaha. My essay closed with a (no so?) subtle innuendo that Hillary has been the invisible hand behind the protest movement. Hillary blames everyone except herself for her loss. I never came right out and said it, but the entire Democratic membership is acting as though they had personally lost the election and wanted to blame it on someone else. It's as if everyone has been channeling their own inner Hillary, and she's showing through.
But it was all unsaid, and only hinted at at the end.
And you zeroed right in on it. Good boy! Well, thanks for coming here to clarify for us that Hillary has had nothing to do with the protests.
“He may not have gotten the words out but the thoughts were great.”
@Kurt from CMH
Ooops, recced by accident; was laughing too hard with my hand on the mouse while reading your post.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
@Ellen North giggle
giggle
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
An American "Left" simply does not exist
in any cohesive or organized way. Opposition to Trump, no matter how widespread and passionate it may be, can do nothing to unify the various "leftish" forces that might conceivably coalesce one day, into a movement that would be strong enough to oppose the duopoly that currently oppresses the nation. But making common cause with the D Party in an effort to "get rid of" Trump is a futile and counterproductive strategy. In fact it is no strategy at all. It is rather an emotional and thoughtless over-reaction, devoid of any long-range thinking or planning.
Getting rid of Trump gives us Pence? Whoop-de-do. Getting rid of them both in 2020 gives us a Neoconned Democratic Party in power, aka Warmongers International? Thanks but no thanks. Neither of these options are desirable, and I don't think we should be wasting our time helping to make either of them happen. The time is ripe for a Third Force in American politics. This need will become ever more apparent as the Trump Administration begins to fail, which is fairly likely to occur. There's a window of opportunity opening now, for the formation of a new political Party.
All that's lacking really, is the right Name, and a strong Leader, around which people can coalesce and unite. I would prefer a platform that can effectively oppose both Wall Street and the MIC without alienating the cultural conservatives of middle-America. One that focuses primarily (as Sanders' campaign did) on alleviating financial disparity and on forcing Big Money out of politics. And one that avoids taking dogmatic positions on divisive cultural issues. Sanders gave us the template on a silver platter. It worked like a charm; all that's needed is to pick it up and start using it.
native
@native
That and have a record proving that they actually stand for a Bernie-type platform.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
The problem is the Deep State behind the corporate party.
You will note that the leaders of 3 of the main cogs of the unelected dictatorship of money, DHS, DoD, and CIA have already been put in place.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - JFK | "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine." - G. B. Shaw Bernie/Tulsi 2020
I see the Deep State as a complex, multi-faceted,
and somewhat amorphous agglomeration of interests. It remains to be seen how, or even if these interests will be able to mesh with Trump's agenda... whatever that turns out to be. It is entirely possible that Trump will attempt to sow discord within its ranks, pitting neoliberals (soft-Right globalists} against hard-Right neoconservatives within the Deep State. I think he has attacked the Deep State (which by and large fiercely opposes him) from the populist Right. A direction of attack for which the State, including the MIC, has been utterly unprepared.
No matter what the outcome of this discord might be, it is bound to weaken the bi-partisan impregnability of the CFR and other powerful, policy-making institutions that have ruled the roost in Washington DC through several Administrations, including Obama's. Sure, Trump is filling key posts with hard-Right allies. But in doing so he is also attacking the bipartisan Deep State far more effectively than any attack from the Left could have done.
IMO Trump cannot possibly succeed in foisting a neo-fascist agenda on the nation, over the long term. I think at least half his support came from people who were simply so fed up with US politics in general, especially as epitomized by Clinton/Obama, that they were willing to throw caution to the winds. This, rather than from people who actually favor Trump's more extreme hard-Right positions. All indications are that his presidency will go down in flames, as soon as the rubber of his crazy rhetoric meets the impossible road of its implementation.
For these reasons I don't see Trump as a serious obstacle to the possible rebirth of a real American Left - as opposed to the phoney liberalism of the current D Party establishment. He might even help it to emerge. But the real Left needs to get its act together PDQ, so as to be ready pick up the pieces, and form a new coalition when Trump finally does implode. We should not allow the Neolib Dems to reclaim the positions of power that they have so irresponsibly and ignobly sacrificed, in the interests of obtaining corporate cash.
native
The Washington Consensus...
of New World Order empire builders and Third Way financiers is leaking worse than Bill Clinton in a Lolita Island hot tub.
Why do people protest its demise? What the hell did Bush/Clinton/Obama policies ever do for them?
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
@native @native Damn!...I hope
Damn!...I hope you are correct
So do I.
native
@native
Do you honestly believe the US doesn't qualify as a fascist state? What elements are missing?
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
I think it's an exaggeration
to call the USA a fully fascist State. Certainly there are fascistic elements to it, but other aspects are not fascist at all. I guess it depends on how strictly one defines the term.
native
@native
Regarding 8 and 11 in the list below - the Bush Admin brought religion right into government, although this is no longer up front; universities are now typically dependent upon corporate/wealthy donors and useful to the former, in example, as sources of relatively cheap research and for promoting economic theories suiting TPTB, with corporate and other donors naturally tending to endow Chairs in areas of interest to them, such as potentially lucrative Pharma drugs/biotech patents, while Liberal Arts fall by the wayside - and directly/indirectly affecting the curriculum. Will sputter to an outraged halt here, lol. The goal has been achieved via cuts in public funding to allow this dependence, while corporate welfare flows like the tears of the dispossessed, struggling and homeless.
But by virtually any criteria - including such as the tacitly 'acceptable' among many government officials practice of police abuses of generally those perceived as being among the more vulnerable citizens, including the appallingly common and blatant militarized police murders of identifiable groups, the continual draining and poisoning of citizens, resources and the environment by corporate-serving politicians continually initiating military invasions and attacks of other countries, the continual spying on and lack of even physical privacy permitted citizens, 'legalized' propaganda used by corporate-serving government against the people, arrests and lengthy imprisonment of political prisoners, lists of citizen 'enemies of the State' who may participate in peaceful marches and may be denied air travel as being on a 'terrorist list' apparently on whim, the denial of public information to the public, the corporate press monopoly set up by a previous President still somehow considered active in politics, the chronic denial to citizens of inalienable Constitutional rights and of Habeas Corpus (among the rest of a very lengthy list) - America certainly looks fascist to a lot of us.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&add...
Personally, after the decades of corporate/military-directed government setting up Americans to be served as frog soup, I think the water's reached boiling now - and maybe it's time to look at the place of arrival and start hopping a bit?
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
@Ellen North Except for #5,
Except for #5, which has been curtailed a bit due to practical reasons (they wanted Hillary in office, and wanted to use feminism rather than suppress it), we've got 'em all.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@native It seems to me the
It seems to me the Deep State is having an unusually serious disagreement with itself. Over nuclear war, and doing, or not doing, the things that are likely to lead to that.
but that's just a hypothesis, oops, I mean a "conspiracy theory," for the Hillary lurkers aboard this lifeboat.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I may not agree with everything you say here--
but the final sentence of your essay is spot-on.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
When he can't keep the gray
out of his hair he will stroke out.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
Government detached from the people
There's a reason that many of the framers of the Constitution wanted to limit federal power. The further government gets from those it represents/rules the more corrupt it becomes. Rather than a democracy powered by the people from the ground up, we now have an uncontrollable top down oligarchy using its unbridled power to wreak havoc around the globe.
The idea that other localities will have different values than you is odious to some, but there's a reason us libertarians still believe in limiting government and this is exactly why. People saying "There oughta be a law!" have brought us to our current state.
Edit: And great post by the way bondibox.
Edit 2: I've seen alt-media people point out that the groups protesting Gorsuch immediately had professionally printed signs about blocking his nomination. Regardless of whether you agree or not, that seems rather strange, doesn't it? Almost like the opposition is manufactured...
This is exactly right
I think that Bernie and Trump have shown the way. Clinton was the establishment candidate and was almost taken down by Bernie and then actually taken down by Trump. We have clear enough evidence that there is room for revolution. Take lessons from both of them. It must be broadly populous, deal with jobs, the environment, peace, and the take down the establishment, wall street, the MIC and all. Make sure that a broad base of Americans can understand the message. Get out of the f'n liberal ivory tower. Be genuine.
Capitalism has always been the rule of the people by the oligarchs. You only have two choices, eliminate them or restrict their power.
@The Wizard
Just to mention - Bernie and not only Americans but the people of the world were cheated of Bernie's Dem Presidential nomination for Her Royal Coronation.
And the DNC argued in court that Dem voters should have known that they'd cheat for Hillary, and therefore Bernie supporters couldn't be considered defrauded of money, hope and time in any (no doubt 'unicorn-pooping-rainbows') assumption of a clean Dem Primary race.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
I agree, CStS--according to CNN, Harley cancelled the trip,
not the Administration, due to fear of protests.
Of course, it's difficult to know if this unnamed official is correct, since Harley issued a Press Statement, saying,
Here's a link to the CNN piece.
You may be correct that this type of headline may serve to gin up his Base. Certainly, it's my observation that DT is pretty much indifferent to what 'others' think. I suspect that he believes that protests serve as grist for so-called conservative 'talkers.'
Mollie
"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went."--Will Rogers
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
It was to be a secret trip, Trump would just show up
Maybe that's why the company would deny it.
The trip was secret in order to prevent protests but there was a leak. ("The WH has more leaks than the Titanic.")
To thine own self be true.
Deposing Trump will be our version of Ukriane's Maidan
If Trump is removed from office that will be our version of Maidan. The end result of the Maidan was civil war. Yanukovych was duly elected from what observers said about his election. And then violently overthrown over an economic policy decision. His supporters in Eastern Ukraine protested, were shot up, and instant civil war.
If Trump is removed from office, my expectation is that his supporters will do a slow boil into violence through out the country. Add into this brew that Trump had huge support among the police, and apparently support by the FBI, who knows where that might lead.
It seems that only way to avoid violence is for the gop to be totally responsible to deposing him. But I don't see that happening.
It seems we are in a classic lose/lose situation. Our choices are restricted to how we want to lose. I hope the proponents of immediate removal understand what will happen, and walk into it clear eyed.
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