To My Friends on the Left: Hillary Clinton Is Not the Enemy
Jeffrey Isaacs published a letter today in The Nation. I would quibble with a few things in it, for example, it is addressed to a successful professional audience and is somewhat oblivious to the travails of those who are not. Hillary’s foreign policy is certainly “within a bipartisan mainstream” as Issacs says. Yet this should only be taken as an indictment of this “bipartisan mainstream”.
But Isaacs’ main argument is sound. The various career-furthering strategem Hillary is criticized for employing have been used by most presidential candidates before her as well. All this criticism is meant to divert your attention from the fact that most of us have few views in common with the groping and bullying Trump.
If you are approaching Clinton from the left, and haven’t already, you should read this: Noam Chomsky's 8-Point Rationale for Voting for the Lesser Evil Presidential Candidate
In particular:
The broader lesson to be drawn is not to shy away from confronting the dominance of the political system under the management of the two major parties. Rather, challenges to it need to be issued with a full awareness of their possible consequences. This includes the recognition that far right victories not only impose terrible suffering on the most vulnerable segments of society but also function as a powerful weapon in the hands of the establishment center, which, now in opposition can posture as the “reasonable” alternative. A Trump presidency, should it materialize, will undermine the burgeoning movement centered around the Sanders campaign, particularly if it is perceived as having minimized the dangers posed by the far right.
If, for some reason, the Weiner laptop saga has made any difference to your views, do read Isaacs as well:
To My Friends on the Left: Hillary Clinton Is Not the Enemy.
She is being attacked by the right wing because the right wing hates her. And the right wing hates her because she is a liberal and a feminist and a woman and because she supports the things that most anger the right wing: gender equality, reproductive freedom, equality for gays and lesbians, gun control, racial equality, and civil rights.
These things that she supports are the things that we support. The things she supports have their limits. She has her limits. But she is not evil, and she is not an enemy.
In the next ten days leading up to Election Day, Clinton will be subjected to a list-ditch barrage of attacks from the right. She does not “deserve” these attacks. And while the attackers target her, what they attack is much of what is valuable to you and to me. To us.
Let us not exult in her travails. They are undeserved. And such exultation does no good in any case.
Let us defeat a Republican neofascist by electing a Democratic neoliberal feminist.
Comments
I uprated you for the discussion, but Trump has said we have
to get tough on terrorists, "take out their families". In the ME, he is likely to be worse than Hill. That's an international war crime, intentionally targeting civilians. So we'll have another President who can't travel outside the country because he'd be arrested.
Trump has stated he's against the TPP, which might make him better than Hill economically, except I don't believe him. Either of them will probably make minor tweaks and then pass the thing, "I objected to it the way it was, not as I perfected it now".
Note too that Trump is scheduled to go to court for the child he supposedly raped, Trump U, and I forget the third one. He could end up impeached. Leaving Mike Pence. Might as well have Ted Cruz.
I think Jill is the only choice.
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Hmm...
Yes, that is one of the more alarming/outrageous/deplorable things he has proposed re: foreign policy, but I'm not sure how it is that you see this as more of a threat to the well-being of average Americans than a likely military confrontation vs. Russia or China or a fantastic military investment in a war with Iran, all of which are nearly 100% certain to happen if Hillary becomes Commander-in-Chief.
James Kroeger
Maybe not more of a threat to the average American, but
I worry about people around the world, not just Americans. More of a threat to the ME.
I am worried about confrontation with Russia or China. I hope she's sane enough not to really do that, talking tough because she thinks that's how women need to talk to be taken seriously.
I don't think she's going to go into Iran. We're doing enough damage already and selling plenty of arms elsewhere for the MIC to be happy.
None of which is to say she's better than Trump. Or worse.
That I don't have a crystal ball to know who would turn out better is why I'm voting for Jill Stein. I can't see voting for either Trump or Hill, or voting for one to prevent the other. Like Jill says, voting lesser of evils has gotten us evil.
So with Jill whatever happens, I have a clear conscience. If everyone voted the way I intend to, the country would be in great shape.
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This...
...probably accounts for our differences in perception re: comparative threats:
.
Maybe a year and a half ago I would have embraced this wistful hope, but since then I have learned a great deal more about Her investment in the whole neocon POV. If you haven't read it yet, check out the NY Times article How Hillary Clinton Became A Hawk
She's not just saying things from the podium to sound like she's not the peace-monger she really is (!); she has a long history of establishing and nurturing relationships with the generals and admirals who push for the most aggressive of military responses from America vs. our imagined enemies. She's fully invested in the 'club', and is a voluntary voice for their most aggressive ideas on how to use America's military assets. She wants their approval and wants them to know that they can depend on her to speak for them. She has unwavering confidence in their assessments of America's perceived advantages over the enemies they want to take on, face down.
I have nothing against Jill Stein, but I'm afraid that the reality we are dealing with is actually much worse than you've been able to imagine up to this point.
James Kroeger
I have no doubt that she is a hawk,
but there's a difference between endlessly meddling in the Middle East to enrich the MIC, and starting WW3 with Russia. Nobody comes out of a nuclear war a winner.
Of course we can't know for sure what either of them will do. But Donald "I'll escalate the wars in the ME and take their oil for ourselves" Trump is unlikely to be our peace president. And "unlikely" is an understatement. He clearly has a short temper and unpredictable behavior. He likes Putin for the moment, but that could easily change. He does seem eager for a war with China.
I can see voting against Clinton. I can't see doing so by voting for Trump. Vote for Jill and let Congress sort it out if need be. If you're right that Clinton's dangerous and Trump's not the buffoon that he portrays, then Congress will vote him in (it's the lame duck Repug house that will decide). They know all the players better than we do, after all, and will lean toward one of their own.
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Do you think TPTB will wait for Congress?
They haven't since 1824. Twice since then it's been wheeler-dealer time: 1876 was straight-up vote trading (decide for Hayes and we'll pull the Federal troops out of the South), and 2000 was a rancid deal all the way to the Supreme Court.
I don't know what they'll do this time, if it comes to that, but I expect it to be far more rancid and blatantly corrupt. "We can't wait for Congress - the country's at WAR, ya know!" Count on it, that will be their excuse for shitting on us all.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Hillary has threatened to
OBLITERATE A WHOLE COUNTRY! Also, due to Hillary's actions and policies scores upon scores of innocent people have died in the wars against terrorists. How is that better than Trump?
Also, not defending Trump, but I am willing to bet my January Social Security check that the rape case goes away after the election. This suit was dismissed in CA for technicalities. It should be noted that the address provided by the plaintiff was a vacant house. I am not trusting a person who gives a false address on court documents.
She then filed in NY. What's scheduled for December is a status conference. Nothing has been decided on the merits of the case. My bet is that the case will go no further.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.
Trump says that we have not hit them hard enough!
That we need to stop worrying about collateral damage and take out their families. He would, if his actions fit his words, escalate the Clinton/Obama wars.
You may be right about the rape case, but what about the fraud case? Can someone convicted of a felony continue to serve as President?
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I don't know, he said it in the primaries talking to the crazies
on the right.
Remember how Clinton said she was anti-TPP during the primaries, because she had to say it then, but we know she doesn't really mean it?
I sincerely believe that his words are the same kind of thing, just a false promise to those on the right.
~OaWN
True. Certainly if he's elected after all, I'll be crossing my
fingers and hoping for the best. But this is the problem with both main candidates. To vote for them, you have to hope they are exaggerating and will not follow through on their promises.
So these conversations reaffirm my decision to vote for Jill Stein. Why vote for evil, lesser or greater?
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I just don't want HRC to win ... desperately
I don't think there will be enough votes for Jill for her to win. A vote for Trump means that Hill has to work that much harder to win.
Re Trump again ... I don't really think that he has an agenda that he really wants to accomplish. I think he mostly just wants to live int he white house and have bragging rights about being the biggest fish in the land. He is a reality TV star, who knows how to grab eyeballs so he says and does what he needs to grab eyeballs. I think he WILL look for opportunities to make money off the WH gig, but I that his bark is worse than his bite for a lot of the stuff he's squawked about. That just my two cents.
~OaWN
Hill needs 50+% of the electoral votes
A state going for Jill is as much a blockage to her as a state going for Trump.
I hope you're right about Trump, that self promotion is certainly part of his personality. But I think you're being too optimistic.
If Hill doesn't win 50+%, then it goes to the lame duck Repug House to decide among the top 3 vote getters. If you're right about Trump, they'll vote him in. If he's a loose cannon and she's not, they'll vote her in.
If we can't out and out elect Jill, letting Congress decide may be the best outcome.
If we give up and vote someone other than Jill, we're playing right into the hands of the "she can't win" propaganda and making it a self-fulfilling prophecy just like they're hoping.
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You are quite right, if she can win the whole state, go for it!
~OaWN
I would urge anyone in a swing state
to vote for Trump for exactly that reason, it's a more effective block for Hillary, and we can actually cancel one of hers.
If I lived in deep color state, I'd vote for Stein.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
Yes, exactly this
If the race is tight, vote for Trump to prevent HRC.
If the race is pretty much over, vote for Jill to give the Green Party a better chance next time.
~OaWN
The rape case is a red herring
Look at this. The clown who filed it used to work for Jerry Springer, and has a history of this type of thing.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
Oh, no, he wouldn't.
Worse in the ME than Hill? No way.
Do you think for a second that Hillary, who was reported as saying "Why can't we just drone this guy" about Julian Assange, would hesitate to drone anybody she thought was a "terrorist," including probably both real terrorists and people who just happen to look like one to her?
If needs be, I will go digging around in her loathsome speeches for her actual words about terrorists and terrorism, but I hope you'll let me off the hook from doing that (LOL). Every time I listen to her I feel like I'm wading through mental sewage.
Imagine George W. Bush's foreign policy if he'd just kept chasing Osama bin Laden and bombing wherever he and his merry band of thugs went, rather than bombing Iraq in pursuit of oil, and that's likely what Trump's ME policy would look like. Horrible, but not as bad as Hillary and her group of PNAC crazies. With her, you'll get BOTH the droning of innocents, the foaming at the mouth about terrorists/terrorism, AND the disgusting regime change, AND, terrifyingly, a new Cold War, and possibly even a new Hot War, against at least Russia and probably also China.
I'm more scared of nuclear war right now than I've been in my entire life.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Consider yourself let off the hook. You know I'm voting Jill too
I'll take your word for it. I saw her DNC speech about arming "local forces to fight ISIS," which I looked up and that's al Qaeda. That was the end of support for her AFAIAC.
But Trump's a loon too, and I have no illusions that he'll be better than her. I can see him doing all of the above, or even dropping a "small nuke" on the ME to wipe out the terrorists and their families all at once.
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That said, as you know, Elena, I believe voting Stein is the way
I'm more interested in damaging the duopoly than anything else.
No matter what happens, a very large portion of the American public now has no faith in either party. Some of them are still voting for duopoly candidates out of fear of the other side of the duopoly, but have no faith in the party or candidate they're voting for. Those are the ones that we want to convince to move away from the duopoly. The rest remaining are true believers or people who psychologically can't move outside the duopoly for some reason: they've allowed the political establishment to dictate to them what reality is. IMO, we shouldn't waste time on them, cruel as that sounds.
As for people voting strategically for Trump, I understand where they're coming from, but I have too many doubts about Trump's connection to Clinton, too many fears that this is all pro wrestling to him and that he's actually working to lift her up by looking outrageous by comparison. I can't really believe that any candidate running under the aegis of either major party is going to give me a result I like. Bernie was their last shot at me.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
And I didn't even mention the larger political considerations
If you care about the possibility of moving Bernie's Political Revolution forward, you really need to reflect on how a Clinton victory will adversely affect that dream...
The most effective thing Bernie Sanders supporters can do at this time to help move his economic progressive agenda forward is to do everything in their power to make sure that Hillary Clinton loses to Donald Trump.
Cuz if she wins, the power and influence of the Clinton political machine will expand dramatically, absolutely guaranteeing that NONE of the movers and shakers within the Dem Party---elected Dems and wannabes---will give any consideration to the fundamental argument that Bernie was making to them this past year.
If she loses, the Clinton political machine will suffer a heavy blow, providing the Bernie Sanders faction within the party an opportunity to expand its influence. The ONLY thing that will make the leadership within the Dem Party open to a new direction is a soul-crushing defeat for Hillary Clinton and some weeks of navel gazing, for the Clinton approach will be revealed to be a LOSING strategy.
From where I'm sitting, if Clinton wins, the Bernie Sanders Revolution is effectively dead. If you really care about what he was able to stir up, then get some of his supporters to go out and vote for Trump while also voting for Democrats down ballot to stiffen up the legislative opposition to his outrageous anti-immigrant ideas. It's our only chance.
James Kroeger
That's how I see it too, James, sadly.
They have all made it perfectly clear how much they hate us, and that they expect pretty nothing from her other than to "not be Trump" when she is president. They hate us because we have a different opinion than they do, I fully expect that if she wins, the Democratic Party will take further action to prevent independents from having any kind of say in "their" party.
Her supporters appear to be brainwashed, and have absolutely ZERO concerns about the things that terrify all of us. They are willing to forgive all of her "mistakes" in the past, such as super-predators, mass-incarceration, being caught blatantly lying at least eight times to avoid responsibility for being unaware of how to properly safe-guard America's most precious secrets and then being recklessly unsafe with them.
If she wins, when she wins, they will not tolerate ANY criticism whatsoever of their dear leader. The writing is on the wall, perfectly clear for anyone to see.
~OaWN
I hope you're right.
I see plans for after the election splitting between make the Dem party better and form a new independent party or take over the Greens. If the Dems make it crystal clear that progressives are not welcome, then we will be less split.
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I can't imagine thinking that we could make the Dem party
better. How many times do we have to go through this before we admit that that strategy will never work?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
"More and better Democrats"
buhahahahahahahahahaha
It's so fucking hollow.
Sunk costs.
Some have put so much time, money and energy into the Dems already that they are probably loathe to let it go. I haven't looked, but I bet in the spirit of Bernie, there are more progressive Dems on the downballot this year than ever before, which might look like progress.
I've done some Dem activism myself (not this year), but I'm ready to try something different. But we need a plan. So far, the two major parties have everything locked up. I don't want to waste time with a "protest party," but a replacement party.
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The Dem Party is so Clinton-run, that we are not welcome
if we are not more afraid of Trump than Clinton. Should Clinton lose, the Democratic Party will be in the wilderness for years, trying to find a new center. Anti starting to build one in a Trump presidency would make them simply the opposition, no philosophy or guiding light.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
This is exactly why
the Democratic party cannot be reformed from within. The Clinton cabal owns the party, lock, stock and barrel. They crush anyone who does not reflect their neo-liberalism and recruit former Republicans to run against Democrats. The Democratic party is dead on arrival nationally.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Nope, I don't trust Trump's judgment on anything.
He's an unabashed white supremacist. Sure, he isn't the first one to say the good lord made different places for different races. And that may sound pretty good to someone tired of war. Except that those principles assume people have less intrinsic self-worth than others. Once you've gone down that road, all sorts of things done to the less than fully human can be rationalized.
Yes, Hillary is far more hawkish than I would like. Trump is far more vicious than I would like, and I have no conviction anything that comes out of his mouth is an earnestly held belief rather than a ploy to con a few more people out of a few more dollars or votes.
@subirgrewal
"Yes, Hillary is far more hawkish than I would like"
as if it's something, well, unfortunate like a clothing decision or perhaps a restaurant choice.
But put into real world language it means "Hillary's policies will kill people. They will be dead, like squirrels that got run over. Like deer shot by hunters. Dead. Imagine if it were you, if you were in the wrong country and drones were coming down at you. And then you were dead. Or perhaps not you but your wife or your husband or your kids."
Saying something like "more hawish than I would like" makes you sound entirely dilettantish. Oh dear, some of the hoi polloi will die. How sad for them, pass the caviar. I just hope it doesn't play havoc with my 401K.
Going easy on "allies"
I've noticed almost that exact wording used any time some apologist for Hillary or Obama act exactly like a Republican.
"Yes, they are more ______ than I would like..."
"Yes, I am somewhat disappointed that they ________..."
If a Republican had done the exact same thing, this is a person that would have been marching in the streets. But when sold out by their own side, all they can muster is a tiny whimper.
That's battered wife syndrome.
And then there's this:
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0U0wGAlpgM]
Listen carefully: this is a presidential candidate suggesting we get ready for a nuclear war.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
An amazing statement...
It's amazing because that describes precisely what I see in Hillary Clinton.
Have you learned nothing from Her campaign against Bernie, Subir? She has a set of positions she embraces during election campaign season and another set that she tells her donors in her private meetings with them. She's a progressive to some audiences and a centrist to others.
I'm no longer able to see her as anything other than one continuous deception, a mere performance that she expects us to fit into our personal hopes and dreams.
When it comes to Hillary Clinton, it's the things she tries to hide from our attention that I trust more than the things she actively promotes (which includes her depictions of her political opponents with alarmist language).
I think the big thing you are missing is that Trump, as bad as he is, is an evil we can survive/handle. Almost all of the anti-POC crap he talks has about a zero percent chance of being translated into people-harming legislation, and without legislation, his talk is just talk.
If he tries to push that crap, like his "Wall" idea, it will simply drive down his popularity as the MSM, the Dem Party, and a good chunk of the Rep Party will all gang up on him.
But if Hillary is elected, no organized opposition whatsoever is going to stop her from committing American military assets to combating some 'outrage' that could end up forcing us into a nuclear stare-down with Russia. SHE IS STILL PROPOSING HER INSANELY STUPID NO-FLY ZONE, SUBIR!
Unlike Kennedy during the Cuban Missile Crisis, who opposed the Joint Chiefs of Staff who were already geared up for an invasion of Cuba (it was the decisive event which led to his assassination a year later), I would fully expect Hillary to embrace the war fever of the generals when her time comes. She's never shown any inkling of a tendency to temporize, but prefers to go with her 'tough bitch' gut instinct and that's what scares the hell out of me.
Trump? I can handle taking on a white supremacist in multi-ethnic America, a country where the media and most of our public institutions have been embracing ethnic diversity for many decades. That's a fight I look forward to winning. You couldn't ask for a better Republican to install in the White House, since it is virtually guaranteed to limit him to a single, very unpopular term.
James Kroeger
Very well said. This is the most important point:
If he tries to push that crap, like his "Wall" idea, it will simply drive down his popularity as the MSM, the Dem Party, and a good chunk of the Rep Party will all gang up on him.
But if Hillary is elected, no organized opposition whatsoever is going to stop her from committing American military assets to combating some 'outrage' that could end up forcing us into a nuclear stare-down with Russia. SHE IS STILL PROPOSING HER INSANELY STUPID NO-FLY ZONE, SUBIR!/em>
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Either of them would bomb the Middle East back to the stone
age. That's why I can't vote for either of them.
Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.
Lots of Brown People Are Going Down With Hotter War in the ME.
Increased pressure to comply with global trade and Russian invasion shit is going to be terrible for the Global South.
The spreading of war towards Africa due to the vast resource rich lands and shifting climate is going to happen under her as well.
The jig is up. All Americans know we're being fucked, this election is exhibit A for a failed Democracy.
Increased income inequality, hostility to protest, massive surveillance, state secrecy, and the stemming of Drumpfenfear will result in the militarized police responses and a general police state vibe all over urban America. All of this with complete Establishment support.
I think people greatly underestimate how bad Hillary will be for people of color and without property.
Drumpf will be opposed by a vast majority of the Establishment and have no mandate or leverage in the halls of power.
Essentially, subir, you are saying you fear your fellow Americans more than the Establishment. I think that's a mistake, and I think it belies what I know about your politics.
Peace~
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
I think this assumption is wrong.
If he wins, he will have a Republican majority in the senate and House. The GOP will go along with his agenda, he'll have shown he can win. It will mean his brand of politics is successful and people will have handed him and the GOP a mandate.
Too high a risk for me to take.
I follow FP issues very closely. I have no sympathy for the imperialist inclinations of some American pols. But I absolutely do not trust Trump, on anything, and I absolutely do not believe a Trump administration will be any better for anyone in the global south.
@subirgrewal
Hillary has promised a merger of U.S. and Israeli foreign policy
Basically, she’s promising to integrate Netanyahu so deeply into the workings of American government as to make her administration co-extensive with Netanyahu’s.
Netanyahu is an ethno-nationalist who prioritizes the welfare of one people, his people, and that people alone, above all else; and those people are not brown.
The peoples of the global south and their welfare don’t, and won’t, figure in Netanyahu and Hillary’s moral calculus. At. All.
Edited to add:
In the interest of “equal time” for alternative viewpoints — a policy I grew up with and have learned in retrospect to appreciate in the extreme — here’s Jewish ethno-nationalist and casino mogul Sheldon Adelson saying he’s giving $25 million to the Trump campaign:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/adelson-boosts-trump-with-25-million-to-def...
How likely is it that a Trump administration would also be co-extensive with government by Netanyahu?
So you'll sacrifice a hundred thousand
in the middle east to be safe from slurs at home. Talk about entitled.
That's quite a shitty thing to say.
I don't think the white supremacist in the orange tan would give a flying fuck if a hundred million brown people died. He puts on a nice little show for his lily white audiences about caring. It's the same con that leads dupes into buying his shitty real-estate courses.
Trump is the jerk who is arguing, decades after all the charges against them were fully discredited, that the central park five should be executed. Perhaps you don't see it because you've never been at the receiving end of a racist slur or a mob.
@subirgrewal
Whats really sad is that you think the White Supremacist in the
pantsuit is any less of a hater.
Hillary has a long record of killing brown people.
Trump? Not so much.
I think he is more a carnival barker whereas Hillary is a cold blooded killer with real, actual blood on her hands.
I am a whole lot more afraid of what Hillary will accomplish against all POOR people (because whether you want to admit it or not, this a lot more about class than race, race is just a convenient tool to keep us fighting each other instead of them.) than of Trump getting any of his nonsense passed by a hostile Congress, Senate and Judicial branches.
You go ahead and vote for the murdering warmonger, but don't go dropping the victim card on us when we call you out for your nonsense.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Lots of brown people in the US
are not so scared by the campaign rhetoric of a blowhard jackass that they will sell the world down the river to be tongue-bathed in false platitudes by a war criminal. I find it somewhat offensive that you could claim to be brown and use that claim as justification to dismiss the concerns I articulated, as if any who disagree with you must therefore be white racists. It is the typical Hillaroid hate speech and divisive identity politics I spoke of, and you have apparently internalized it so deeply that it burps out of you without even waiting for the talking points from Brock. Sounds like you have never been on the receiving end of an aerial bombardment. How entitled.
Oh no! Words!
You're whining about people saying shitty things, when you're taking shitty actions and supporting a shitty candidate who WILL cause global mayhem just to make her and her friends wealthier and more powerful.
It's more than just words. Trump won't soil his tiny hands,
but he is enabling some hateful discrimination.
From DKos yesterday (WARNING: DKos link!): AZ teacher to Muslim student: "I can't wait until Trump is elected. He's going to deport all you Muslims." The worst part about that story: The school stood behind the teacher!
Worse, here's a disturbing WaPo article from December: Attacks on Muslims across the country as Trump rhetoric puts them in the line of fire
I found that by googling "muslim beaten trump," you can see the results https://www.google.com/#q=muslim+beaten+trump
Many articles about children being attacked, but not sure how many are stories repeatedly reporting on the same incident.
Even one child beaten because Trump wants to pander to racists is one child too many.
None of this makes Hill okay. But Trump is not an acceptable substitute. Vote Jill.
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Probably most Muslims are
disgusted by our choices, but I'd say that among those who will vote at all, it's about a 50/50 split Trump/Hillary.
Don't underestimate the visceral hatred for Hillary, they understand exactly what she will bring, in ways that most Americans don't.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
And to stop that kinda shit
you will have to take on the entire Tea Party along with every idiot out there who watches Faux, listens to hate radio, or visits a hate blog. Rump can't control them any better than we can. But Shillary CAN probably control them, why she'll just declare martial law and get the whole thing done. And it would serve her own purposes very, very well to either stamp out any protests, or maybe to keep some of them going. She's a racist under all those pantsuits after all, she takes her own marching orders from many of the same people you disparage here. What's a little racial battle to her anyway? Just keeps anything real from happening while we all FEAR our own neighbors now too. And when she wins and these people feel ripped off by that? Do you think that stops the hate? That only fuels it. These people already see themselves as victims, you think that just goes away with Trump?
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
"I'm brown and most of my family and friends are immigrants"
Sure, and HRC has been so *great* for brown people - in Afghanistan and Iraq, for instance; and Syria and Libya and Yemen and Egypt. Gee, with friends like that, who needs enemies?
Subir, if a jackass like Trump became president and launched an assault on brown (or any other) people, we would be THE FIRST to line up beside you. In fact: we are already standing in that line of defense, standing up as we are and saying NO to another 4-8 years of Obama policy (or worse) that HRC clearly represents. The real question is, where the heck are you? Your place in that line is empty.
Yes, but I don't believe Trump will be any better
and I don't believe us standing side by side on the barricades will help. He's more than likely to send troops down to shoot at you and me for protesting. Just as he eggs people at his rally to rough up protestors. I decided a long time ago that I would accept and support Hillary, fully aware of her faults.
And btw, I don't believe the same Putin who bombed Grozny to bits, and is currently doing the same in Aleppo will be any better for the global south. I don't believe Jinping would be either.
@subirgrewal
Hillary keeps emphasizing how close she wants to be to Netanyahu
How has Netanyahu worked out for “brown people” — people not of the dominant national ethnicity?
Hillary promises to crack down on dissent, starting with banning “hate speech” on the internet and criminalizing BDS. Who is more likely to be an American Netanyahu, Hillary or Trump?
Who is more likely to get the support from Congress she or he needs to become the American Netanyahu — Hillary or Trump?
Democrats are perhaps a bit better than Republicans at shedding crocodile tears, but I think brown people — in fact the non-wealthy of any color or stripe — will find that, to those with the power, we’re just kids playing on a beach in Gaza, or the journalists in the “Collateral Murder” video — fair game for target practice.
Well said
Thank you for that. You said it better than me - great concrete illustration - and it's one small phrase in your last sentence that drives home the the real truth of it: "in fact the non-wealthy of any stripe".
Hillary can have all the women and brown and black campaign staffers and Administration personnel she wants, but the presence of brown or black people in her coterie does not make her a true ally of POC, and the presence of women does not make her a feminist. Her loyalty is to her CLASS, and she has proven more than willing to sacrifice POOR women's reproductive rights, and POOR people's civil rights in order to maintain her class power.
So yeah, Hillary's a real chum, IF you have the do-re-mi.
Save it
Save the garbage, since it's pretty well proven at this point that the person responsible for egging on violence is good old Hillary and her machine.
I've been to Trump rallies (twice)
Both were peaceful, and one was in the national news for having someone ejected, yet I witnessed no violence, people were escorted out by security if they were disruptive or shouted, but no rough stuff at all.
There were plenty of agitators, but even these were non-violent, if obnoxious. The "violent Trump rally" trope was devised by Mook and friends. Frames (as in framing people) are a specialty of theirs, apparently.
I should also add that the crowds were about 60/40 M/F, about 2-5% black, and decent representation by all shades of brown. There were Muslim women in hijab, lots of Asians, and more. The lily-white meme is a lie too.
Almost everything the Hillary campaign says is a spoonfed lie.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
Don't forget Honduras and Haiti.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Remember who she supports in Syria
and in Yemen. Brown people are at grave risk in a Clinton presidency.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
Blah blah blah.
Look, subir, the whole "omigod Trump" mythology is based on a "look the other way" attitude toward Clinton's actual behavior combined with a vast speculative over-estimate of Trump's supposed effectiveness as a political figure. Trump does not have the allegiance of the Republican Party, the Democratic Party, or the military, nor does he have any interest in policy-making, yet according to Clinton advocates he'll be supremely effective as President and omigod we can't have that! (The rest of us have figured out that Donald Trump won't be much of a factor in his own victory, should he win; Hillary Clinton will have defeated herself should she lose.)
Now you can continue to pretend that this sort of thing suffices as an argument, if you want. Good luck with that.
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
Lesser evil argument.
I'm not seeing a realistic view of Clinton in that article. Sure, Washington is full of crooks and liars but Clinton has surpassed that, her and her husband. She is a de factor war criminal for one, that is not bipartisan mainstream, that is what she has done. She has committed international crimes against humanity resulting in the deaths of women and children. Can it get worse than that? Is that feminist, killing women and children? Has Trump done that? Can people actually vote for a murderer to be our President? Can that be excused and actually used as a lesser evil argument?
No it can't, not if one is honest and knows the truth. The writer of that article and Chomsky are ignoring the truth. There is no more racist activity on the planet than U.S. wars and imperialism and Clinton's has been and will be supercharged. That's not lesser evil, it's just evil.
So ya, she is the enemy to some of us on the left. That doesn't mean Trump is acceptable. He isn't. None of this is acceptable in my book. We don't need a president for this country.
crooks and liars are cool, they're everywhere....
What's one more?
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
The American people voted for Eisenhower enthusiastically
and for Truman AFTER Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
I bet the thousands of people
whose votes were supressed during the rigged primary don't feel so warm and fuzzy about Clinton being the champion of our civil rights.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.
Hundreds of thousands.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Clinton = WAR
Hillary Clinton is as big an enemy as I've seen in my lifetime. Putting an X next to her name on a ballot is as good as signing a document saying you want Empire at all costs. Those costs will include your grandchildren as cannon fodder and perhaps even seeing our own nation reduced to ashes in a confrontation with Russia.
Trump may be an enemy also, but he is not as driven by the insanity of Empire as is Hillary Clinton.
Trump has said he will "take out their families"
(of terrorists). He also said we should just take the oil, it's ours by right because we spent so much money over there. Trump doesn't want Empire? That's a mighty kind way of looking at him. Even a tad fact free, IMO.
He is better with Russia, I give him that. Until he and Putin decide to compare dick sizes, I expect.
Jill Stein.
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elenacarlena, you and I have discussed this before
Trump is saying what he would do if he is president, but our country has been doing the same things since it started invading countries.
It has been killing civilians and taking country's resources.
In fact that has been the reasons for many of our military interventions.
You have read Smedley's book?
If this country doesn't invade another, it overthrows their elected leaders or trains their military to do it for us.
Are you aware that this country is arming and funding Al Quada to help overthrow Assad and they are killing civilians and be heading children?'If' Trump is elected and does what he says he wants to do, I don't see any difference from what has been happening.
Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?
I understand that, and I'm not saying Hill is good,
far from it. But this idea that voting for Trump will somehow be better is absurd.
At best he will maintain what we already have, which is unacceptable. At worst he will escalate.
The choice is between Hill and Trump and Jill, and a few people here seem to think better Trump than Jill. That is what I'm arguing against.
Vote Jill. Neither Hill nor Trump deserve the White House. If one of them gets in anyway, that's on the people who voted for them, not we who are trying to change direction.
To vote Trump out of Hill fear is playing into their hands as much as to vote Hill out of Trump fear.
Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.
Empire Builders and Party Crashers
I did not say Trump "...doesn't want Empire."
I detest them both, however I can look back on Hillary's record and extrapolate her future moves. Further, as to Trump stating he will "...take out their families," how is that any different than our current President dropping in on wedding parties - with cruise missiles? I'd say that if Trump really does "take out their families," he will simply be continuing current policy. Nothing new there.
I think I'll write a thing on why people should vote for Hills
it might take me awhile to figure it out. I should be done and have it posted here by next Wednesday.
It's her turn!
Also, she is a woman! Only misogynists would not vote for her!
Am I still a sexist
if I voted for the Other Woman?
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway
They say that life's a game and then they take the board away
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
And leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret-- A. Moore
Adulterer.
Stoning for that.
Yes!
Feminism is only about Hillary now.
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
She already bought the tiara?
Heck, no
Heck, no, she didn't buy it. It was a donation in kind to the Clinton Foundation.
"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi
"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone
And then she gave the sheik who made the donation
some shiny new fighter jets.
Let me know before you do so Shahr.
I would like the opportunity to buy stock in Maalox first, as I bet the amount you will need just during the writing process will probably drive their stock up 15 points.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Maaludes
Maalox is a Rorer product.
Does the label "Rorer 714" ring any bells for you?
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Please
See what they're paying first. You owe it to yourself. You might even consider getting it in at 8:00 PM Pacific Time if they'll pay more.
Ha ha ha, I am grinning from ear to ear
I did not see what you were doing at first, but now that I do ... I just completely love it. TY for making me smile today, Shahryar.
~OaWN
In reading through Chomsky's reasons to vote Hillary
I am struck by his conviction that he knows what either candidate will do once elected. This is guesswork at best. There have been a number of absolutes proposed by many pundits in this election. One is Bernie had zero chance of winning the primary, another is Trump had zero chance of winning the primary. And I really, really don't understand how Chomsky justifies voting for Hillary based on her foreign policy. She is the embodiment of the type of Kissinger approved tyranny he has railed against for decades.
I know Trump is absolutely foul and someone I would never vote for. Hillary is slightly less foul (social positions mostly, economic and foreign policy are a tie at best). But I can't bring myself to vote for her just because the marginalized will be less damaged by her than him. Why would anyone assume she is better ? I don't see evidence that she won't do shit like further criminalize drug users like her husband, or cut SS like PBO and her hubby have suggested. There is a very real possibility that Trump won't be able to get one thing done because no one, except the T partiers, will support him. That's 25% of Congress max.
I have already voted. I am sure I will be unhappy with the outcome of this election...and so the battle continues.
Sorry Subir!
I, too, believe you to be a thoughtful person of conscience. However, Hillary Clinton and her inner circle are the enemy of what I hold dear. All women and children are my "village." Even those in the Middle East, those in Africa, and those in Central and South America. The use of nuclear weapons must be taken off the table forever. Hillary clearly believes they should be used to some "advantage" that can ONLY lead to tbe destruction of this planet we all call home. I absolutely can NOT see anything in my future or that of my village or my planet improving when the. Clintons take over the white house again.
I no longer believe in the religion of progress
Clinton Is an Opponent of Democracy, an Attack Dog for Big
Corporate & the Oligarchs.
She's not liberal, she's not a friend of the common person.
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
Wow. This is just dishonest on so many levels
The right wing hates her? Really? Who are Henry Kissinger, Robert Kagan, Max Boot, John Negroponte, Richard Armitage, Brent Scowcroft and many other high profile Republicans if not right-wingers? Hillary Clinton is a "liberal" only in the most narrow sense of at least giving lip service support to the more enlightened elements with regards to various social issues that don't impact her sponsors' bottom line.
And no woman who has so doggedly defended a serial sexual predator like Bill Clinton - not to mention belittling and defaming his many victims - deserves to be called a feminist. That is just plain insulting.
On the issues that will most impact the quality of life for the vast majority in the coming years, Hillary Clinton is a hard-line right winger in the eyes of anyone willing to look honestly and objectively at her record, her stated policy positions, and the people she surrounds herself with.
As President, Hillary Clinton will continue to support the permanent war state, the mass surveillance state, the plundering and pillaging of the environment, the fraud, theft and swindling of the masses by the Wall Street predators, the care and feeding of the prison-industrial complex, as well as the surrender of national sovereignty and the gutting of the middle class by virtue of more "free trade" agreements.
This is who the woman is, this is who she's always been. This is clearly the agenda of the powerful interest groups that have funneled literally hundreds of millions of dollars into her campaign, her family's "charitable foundation" and directly into her pockets over the last several decades.
Anyone not willing to acknowledge this 800 lb. gorilla sitting in the corner is either a blind, naive fool, or else a lying, dissembling propagandist. So my question for you, Ms. or Mr. Subir, is which one are you?
inactive account
Well said, mouselander
The people named above are from the PNAC group of the Bush/Cheney camp and are waiting for Obama to leave so that Hillary can take the gloves off the foreign policy and install her no fly zone over Syria even if it means even more Sryian deaths.
I agree with the rest of your comment.
Well said, indeed.
Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?
Thanks
It really bugs me that a number of posters who could charitably be described as being members of "Markos' Minions" have taken advantage of the lenient policies of this site in order to post diaries here that literally could have been penned by Huma Abedin or Robby Mook.
Of course, if any Jill Stein supporter were so foolish as to attempt to post a pro-Jill diary on Daily Kos, it would be taken down after about 15 seconds and the poster would be summarily banned for life. Even though some of the pro-Hillary posters are undoubtedly well meaning, when I see such diaries here it feels almost as if some of the foul sludge from that cyber-cesspool has leaked out and polluted C99.
I can only surmise they're attempting to appeal to the lurkers - anyone who bothers to even skim the posts here knows that the number of frequent contributors who are even remotely open to voting for Hillary can be counted on one hand, if not one finger.
inactive account
I was thinking that they must be running some kind of daily pool
over there at TOP and the loser had to come over here and give it their best shot. Because that cookie has already bounced. Or the ball has crumbled. Either way...
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks
Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa
I'll give one finger
to the idea of voting for Hillary.
Guess which one?
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
Here's a good list:
Colin Powell joins 68 Republican politicians, donors and officials who are supporting Hillary Clinton
Includes 26 George W. Bush administration officials:
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
That list you put forward just proves the point
that if the Democrats really were "Liberal" or "Progressive" or even "Left" they would have huge concerns about this fact.
That they don't perfectly illustrates that they are none of these things.
It's actually worse than that though, not only are they not concerned, they LAUDED Hillary for being able to get them to do so.
They never bothered to take 2 minutes to think about WHY they would support Clinton.
Some truths are just too uncomfortable for the comfortable to ponder...
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
the biggest problem is not that they support HRC
The biggest problem is that she brags about having their support.
Only someone who is my enemy would be proud of having the approval of that long list of criminals and wackjobs
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
Even my Republican
family members understood completely how wrong/stupid/tone deaf it was for any Democrat to claim Henry Fucking Kissinger as a mentor and then ask for my vote. And I call them Republican out of courtesy, they aren't Tea Bags but are Christian, they're also of the variety whose parents voted that way and they do too. I don't know if they'll vote Trump and I'm almost afraid to ask, but really, why should that be. I know they won't vote Shillary and they already know I damned well won't. Didn't either, ballot already gone for Stein and it felt good.
And that is a nice irony this election, I no longer get pushback at ALL from anyone when I disparage Shillary. In fact, I feel like it's sort of a badge of honor with Republicans, like they're somehow really happy to hear someone like me say it! And even Democrats don't really push back that hard either, sadly they know better but will still vote out of fear of that Rump.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Talk with them. At least get them to vote Johnson. Or the
guy with the big cats. Or stay home. If you can't convince them to vote Stein. If they hate Trump and Clinton, you may be happy to see they're easily convinced.
Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.
I believe the proper response
to finding these criminals in agreement with you is "Your approval fills me with shame."
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway
They say that life's a game and then they take the board away
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
And leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret-- A. Moore
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