Can we stop pretending that norms have not changed?

Not for the first time, I find myself shaking my head at the apparent either:

A. lapse in recollection
or
B. somewhat startling contemporary obliviousness

exhibited by a whole lot of people with respect to "norms" of social-sexual behavior, and especially, what those norms were back in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

last night while driving home from work, i was listening to the odious, rude, and remarkably stupid Alan Colmes "conversing" with a caller who was trying to assert that in fact, much of what Trump has said over the years (or has been accused of saying or doing in the past) was not that extraordinary for its time. Colmes, as is his wont, dismissed this claim out of hand, reframing it as an accusatory black-and-white question and refusing to allow the caller to respond in a thoughtful way, demanding a "Yes" or a "No". "WAS IT NORMAL FOR A MAN TO PUT HIS HAND UP A WOMAN'S SKIRT??!? NO, I'M ASKING YOU, WAS IT NORMAL FOR A MAN TO PUT HIS HAND UP A WOMAN'S SKIRT??!?!?! YARGLE BARGLE ARGLE BARGLE!!!"

well, I'm here to tell you folks, whether you want to face it or not, that in fact, back in the day, yes, it was fucking "normal". this stuff was far more routine than people seem to want to believe. i know this isn't a popular thing to say. i recall that sometime in the last several months, some semi-conservative female commentator of some sort or another was reviled for suggesting that if you really want to crucify every male public figure for the crimes of a not all that distant cultural milieu, you'd better be prepared to crucify your own fathers and grandfathers. howls of outraged senses of decency ensued, and the woman's point was carried off in the huffed and puffed storm of indignation.

the problem is that the commentator was absolutely fucking right. i mean, What the Actual Fuck? have people really lost track of the conditions of pre-feminist western culture? Jesus! In a world where:

the law officially held that the phrase "rape of a wife by her husband" was a legal nonsense;

where a woman who had ever had sex outside of wedlock was effectively presumed by judges and juries to have consented to, well, just about anything else that might have happened to her in the "company" of any random man;

where more generally, any inappropriate physical contact between a man and a woman -- and especially a married man and a woman not his wife -- was presumed to be the result of Naughtiness and Imprudence on the woman's part;

where bizarre homoerotic hazing rituals were established traditions in the US Navy (google up "shellback homoerotic" if you want a taste -- or fuck it, go to this page, where a particularly damaged fuckwit defends these now-banned rituals -- ironically, given that in the immediately preceding part of his essay he praises Ross Perot, who as a Navy officer refused to submit to the ordeal, cementing his outsider status.);

where criminal violent sexual battery was a routine element of male athletic culture -- and i'm not talking about million-dollar athletes assaulting women in bars, or high school golden boys raping cheerleaders while parked up at the submarine races (not that those weren't appalling and common, as they are yet today), i'm talking about athletes -- from high school varsity right through into the pros -- physically sexually assaulting their teammates as part of established hazing traditions;

where "we" were much less sensitive (indeed, almost entirely ignorant of) such concepts as "personal space" and "ownership of one's own body" and so on, such that, other than bible-thumping cranks, nobody imagined it was a meaningfully traumatic psychological experience if a male -- a boss, a "coworker" (quoted because men and women rarely worked in conditions where the women enjoyed a status that legitimately warranted the prefix "co"), a guy at school, some asshole on the subway, or, yes, a "celebrity" -- "copped a feel" as the expression went;

etc. etc. etc.;

in that world, one well within the living memory of anyone more than 45 years old, the kind of shit Donald Trump is accused of (or has bragged about) was absolutely fucking commonplace. i simply cannot abide the fucking denial going on about this. for god's fucking sake, talk to your fucking grandmothers! Have so many people really forgotten the true nature of the battles that women like Gloria Steinem were fighting? Do you really not get the simple reality that up until about 15 years ago, some form or another of droit de seigneur was presumed to be the natural and well-earned reward -- indeed, one of the primary motivating factors -- for any male achieving high socioeconomic status? And that to a large extent it still is? Who the fuck do you think constitutes the clientele of the sex tourism industry? Do you think the planes to the Dominican Republic are filled with slope-browed open-mouthed-drooling perpetually-single basement-masturbating middle-aged virgins? If you socialize at all in circles that include "successful businessmen", then the Who the Fuck in question is, men with whom you are acquainted.

Get a fucking grip, people. It reminds me of all those folks, mostly but not exclusively women, who went to see Saving Private Ryan and were stunned to get, for the first time in their lives, some tiny little clue about what war is about, and what it looks like, and what the men in their lives -- husbands, fathers, sons, grandfathers -- had gone through. The information is not new and it's not a secret -- the literature, fiction and nonfiction, is abundant -- and nobody has an excuse for being unaware of its reality. If your father or grandfather or husband was, prior to 1990 or so, a varsity athlete (particularly, from what I've read over the years, in football, wrestling and hockey), or belonged to a fraternity at college, there's a much better chance than most people seem to want to accept that he was either a perp or a victim or both. I appreciate Chris Whatsisname's essay upbraiding Trump on the matter of modern locker-room talk, but I've also heard the songs sung by British rugby teams, and I can tell you this: If an offhand ironic reference to pussies turns your stomach, the lyrics to those songs would hospitalize you.

Further, as I've written elsewhere in the past, at least a third of the guys in my class in junior high -- myself included -- did things "to" girls that would nowadays be viewed as felonies; whether they would be prosecuted would be largely up to the discretion of the judicial authorities, but if so, the result would be to descend into the waking nightmare of modern life that awaits the classified "sex offender". (And "one third" isn't one of those randomly generated statistics folks like me throw around on blogs, that's a number I generated by iterating through a list of my classmates.)

Trump brays about "grabbing their pussies" and everybody collectively gasps as if every time in the past 50 years that a rock star or athlete or movie star or powerful politician put his hand up a woman's skirt, he either had asked permission, or he was thrown in jail. Well that's fucking bullshit. Men with that kind of status used to take such liberties as a matter of course, and, if the contact were unwanted, about the worst they usually got was a slap in the face. That may be hard to believe in an era when an NBA star might find himself facing charges AND a lawsuit for grabbing a woman's breasts in a bar -- and I say might because it still goes on plenty; one supposes that most women would rather just walk away than put themselves in the middle of a public furor -- but that's really how it was, and any conversation about how relatively horrible Der Trumpf is wrt The Clenis or Her Heinous needs to start with an acknowledgement of the cultural reality. Trump is a loathsome pig for certain, and he might indeed be a loathsome criminal pig, just as WJC appears likely to be, but there's a very wide spectrum between loathsome pig and monstrous sexual predator, and from the information we have at the moment, we cannot assign either of those two pigs a fixed position on that spectrum.

For myself, it's a non-issue. Both of the duopoly candidates are morally unfit to hold any office at all, and they would be just as much so even if they didn't both have disgusting public records of treating certain women in certain circumstances with a level of disregard that is unacceptable.

Share
up
0 users have voted.

Comments

Big Al's picture

up
0 users have voted.

"It didn't happen to me, so I don't think it happens." I have no interest in getting into such a debate. Such things happened. Hazing amongst athletes has been well-documented, and guys I knew who were on elite teams, from junior high and up, talked about it with a mixture of fear and pride. Polite middle-class society mostly managed to bumble along simply pretending that what was happening was not happening, mainly because amongst adult males, it ("it" including both athletic and military hazing, as well as heterosexual sexual harassment and sexual assault) would only be discussed in the "appropriate" company -- which is precisely why such behaviors persevered for as long as they did. In the case of athletic and fraternity hazing, my recollection is that it wasn't until women -- which is to say, mothers -- were sufficiently empowered by feminism to be widely and directly involved in their sons' athletic endeavors that this entire world of male behavior came to their attention, and they promptly put a major fucking stop to it.

And I suppose I will repeat a simple question from my essay: Who, exactly, do you think constitutes the clientele of the sex tourism industry? Forget the child prostitution of the Dominican Republic or Thailand -- who do you think supports the prostitution industry in the US? The answer is: Ordinary men -- often itinerant, as in, business travelers. Married men. Husbands, lovers, dads and sons. Pillars of their community. Jaycees. Employees of the Month. Up-and-comers.

In any case, I firmly assert that your "that's bullshit" is itself bullshit. I suggest that you acquaint (or reacquaint) yourself with feminist literature of the 70s and 80s for a reality check.

up
0 users have voted.

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

So, I wrote a response to a comment, but accidentally -- as I still often do -- posted it as a reply to the essay, rather than the comment -- and meanwhile the author of the original comment has redacted it -- though i'm not sure why, it wasn't particularly offensive -- and now my response sits there, in the wrong place, floating mysteriously and non sequiturously in thread limbo.

up
0 users have voted.

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

Big Al's picture

and I decided I didn't want to get into it. Your response is kind of why. I'll just say I'm a 61 yr old male and I've been around. And Trump is a rude, sexist (and more) asshole and that's all I need to know about the subject.

up
0 users have voted.
CS in AZ's picture

Because I felt you were holding back a much more, ah, vigorous response which I knew I'd agree with. I'm sorry I missed it. All I can say is thank goodness not all men think this kind of stuff is ok. You're one of the good ones.

As someone who was sexually assaulted by a grandfather, an uncle and a stepdad before I was 15 years old, I am perfectly prepared to call them all sick sexual predators. Along with anyone defending this behavior as "normal" and acceptable, in the past or now. It seems like some people miss those good old days before women made such a fuss about it.

up
0 users have voted.
Big Al's picture

and not accepted where I came from. And I've been in a lot of locker rooms.

up
0 users have voted.

up
0 users have voted.

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

is a lost cause; people who see "normal" as a value are going to attack you as being immoral; those of us who see "normal" as a measurement will eventually subside beneath the waves of outrage, because our statements, being less intense and personal, are automatically going to take up less discursive space.

What's really ironic here is I bet I'm not the only person who agrees with you who was actually sexually assaulted, repeatedly, over a course of years, when I was younger.. But we no longer have a feminist movement that can deal with systemic analysis of sexism in culture; we've got an individualistic feminism which pillories individual bad actors as if they aren't part of a larger problem. Which is handy, because that kind of feminism is easily co-opted for a variety of political and media purposes.

up
0 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

First, let me say how much I agree with your comment and PriceRips that normal is not a value. More importantly, let me say how much I admire you for having the strength and intellect to rise above what happened to you.

What's really ironic here is I bet I'm not the only person who agrees with you who was actually sexually assaulted, repeatedly, over a course of years when I was younger.

I have never been sexually abused. I admit that it limits my ability to relate to it. I do get victim, however, and I know that it is a losing state of mind. How anyone can get through life without a strong strain of distance and objectivity is beyond me. It is too awful sometimes to be that up close and personal.

up
0 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

I was very lucky, in that he exited my life, more or less voluntarily (though for a while he turned back up like a bad penny, which was total hell on my nerves). It took me some years in therapy and some work done outside it w/help from friends to heal most of the damage.

Those events were really what got me into feminism. Unless there's a way to reclaim feminism from this disgusting political puppet show, I will probably stop calling myself a feminist and merely call myself a humanist. Women are human, therefore should have human rights, right?

up
0 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

CambridgePulsar1919's picture

Thanks for stating the truth (as I see it of course) about 'feminism' 2016. As a man who grew up with a wonderful, humanist, feminist mother, I no longer recognize the putrid, politically strategized hate-fest that is feminism as it is peddled to me every day.
It's horrible that modern American politics has tarnished everyone with the 'original sin' of their personal identity, and poisoned the well of shared humanity with paranoia and fear.

up
0 users have voted.
PriceRip's picture

          Different person, similar point of view.

up
0 users have voted.

I am awful remembering names. I usually get something close but not accurate. My apologies again.

up
0 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

"It didn't happen to me," or "I didn't see it," is denying other people's lived experiences. Some figures are that one in four women is assaulted by the time she is 18. Women don't talk about it casually, so your friends or relatives may be not-talking about it. Some sources think it's a higher percent, and I don't think groping was counted in those figures. I'd assume that a percentage including groping is MUCH higher (100% among anyone who's taken a New York subway at rush hour). To insist that groping or an unexpected kiss is at the same level of seriousness as violent sexual assault or child molestation minimizes a lot of major, life-altering trauma.

Presence of evidence is evidence. You hear that ugly talk in some situations and not in others. Not having heard it personally doesn't mean that there isn't a lot of it. I'm glad at least a few people have led safe and sheltered lives, but don't discount the rest of us who haven't been so lucky.

up
0 users have voted.
CS in AZ's picture

in the English language. Here's a couple of them from dictionaries, since we are looking for reason and facts here.

adjective
1. conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.
2. serving to establish a standard.
3. Psychology.
approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment.
free from any mental disorder; sane.

1 perpendicular; especially : perpendicular to a tangent at a point of tangency
2
a : according with, constituting, or not deviating from a norm, rule, or principle
b : conforming to a type, standard, or regular pattern
3
: occurring naturally
4
a : of, relating to, or characterized by average intelligence or development
b : free from mental disorder : sane

up
0 users have voted.

was a very popular television program. Women were not considered "equal" to a man in any part of life.
Won't use the word "normal" - more like just accepted, ignored, and still, in some places, going on today.

What Billy Clinton did, in the office of the President of the United States, with a much MUCH younger employee, was reprehensible, and worse, was the way the young woman was treated by Billy's wife, and members of his cabinet, who went out in public and defended Billy, at his request, and said it never happened. It was Billy's Ak COS Betsey Wright who coined the words "bimbo eruptions" and the length of the list was used to convince Billy he couldn't run for POTUS in 1988, cuz Her Heinious and Betsey needed to "clean up" the list before he could.

up
0 users have voted.
TheOtherMaven's picture

"Father" usually bumbled his way into and through situations that it took the subtle, underhanded smarts and savvy of his wife to get him out of. It was a slightly antiquated view even then: the men claim to run the world, but the women really run the men.

up
0 users have voted.

There is no justice. There can be no peace.

You can talk about your reality as you recall it, but you can't change what was before you were old enough to comprehend it.

up
0 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

In reading this I recalled being molested by a neighbor boy; whenever attending a rock concert and being in "the pit", even with a boyfriend (learned after the first time to NEVER wear a skirt); A grade school boyfriend I had to fist fight off of me; after college my girlfriend's husband trying to "touch" me while I was sleeping and several physical attacks from supervisors in various stages of my work life. And I was a teenager in the 1980s. So yes it absolutely does happen. And it still happens to my daughter occasionally when the NYC subway is crowded and she has to stand. So I totally agree with the writer's assessment. The "men" in my situations certainly were not in high social-economic status. They were all white males.

up
0 users have voted.

O.k. When is the next meeting for the revolution?
-FuturePassed on Sunday, November 25, 2018 10:22 p.m.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

I do believe that living well is the best revenge--though it's not the only thing I want.

up
0 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

it occurred to me my response might have seemed cavalier.

up
0 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

It sounded totally in control.

up
0 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

and has never been shy about showing it.

I remember when October surprises were actually surprising.

up
0 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

I know exactly what you are talking about. My brother was in the Navy, and now that you mention the equator thing, I remember him talking about it. I also know first hand about being grabbed and groped on dates. It was a big deal, but it was "normal". As long as they took no for an answer, it wasn't a problem.

Speaking only for me, I get pretty tired of the people who escalate every spoken word and indiscrete action into a terrorist act.

up
0 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

flowerfarmer's picture

to every single aspect of intrusion into my personal space that Hairball shared with Billy Bush.
Groped, grabbed, chased, followed, forceably kissed by an oily stranger in a public place, an 80 year old landlord reaching up my skirt. ETC.
One guy continually ran at me at a party, like a bull in rut, that required my friends to tackle him- there was alcohol involved here!
Every single one of these incidences were a violation.
Every one of my woman friends have experienced similar situations.
Not acceptable and very frightening in real time.
I am certain it has happened since the beginning of time and continues everywhere to this very moment to women of all ages everywhere in all walks of life.
Women everywhere travel thru life with subliminal heightened awareness of possible personal intrusion.

Trump is a pig.
He does not get a pass for his behavior.

However, Clinton and her cabal are worse than pigs.
They are murderers, supporters of terrorism worldwide, cynical practitioners of toxic powermongering and generally terminally immoral scum.

Neither of these 'people' should be eligible to run for dogcatcher.
But here we are, subjected to the perverse reality of both of them.

This 'election' is a pathetic embarrassment.

up
0 users have voted.

Trump is a pig. Bill Clinton is a pig. I would contend that both are guilty of rape, sexual assault, and sexual harassment by yesterday's and/or today's norms. Both are corrupt, Clintons more so because they also betray their oath of office and the public trust. The Clintons claim first place in the race for most evil because of all the people they killed and jailed. Trump and W. can't help but look better when compared to the Clintons - and Obama in my opinion.

I think women and small men live a life with subliminal heightened awareness of possible personal intrusion that can be sexual or physical.

up
0 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

up
0 users have voted.
lunachickie's picture

this is exactly why JtC regularly talks about removing the edit feature. He's requested a number of times that we stop doing this--it's why you see "edited for" entries in other comments here now. It's not some "hardcore requirement", but it's something I really wish we'd all honor here, so that reading discussions make sense to others who weren't in on the initial back and forth.

up
0 users have voted.
Alex Ocana's picture

Would be an embarrassing disaster for me... it takes me a number of edits to get rid of typos, bad grammar and re-order wording so it sounds like real English. Usually takes me a half hour of proof reading so it looks and sounds like correct English.

Added in edit is good for any major addition. Deletedd in embarrassment... LOL.

up
0 users have voted.

From the Light House.

Big Al's picture

I'll try not to let it happen again. I typed that comment too fast, saw what I typed, then said, oh shit, I don't like that.
But, ya, I agree.

up
0 users have voted.
QMS's picture

May I say that all males do not behave this way? I know some very moral gentlemen in this society. (meant as a response to Untimely Ripped)

up
0 users have voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

There are always dissenters. Smile

We are talking about cultural norms, not essential biology.

up
0 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

misfortune of running into the freaks!

up
0 users have voted.

O.k. When is the next meeting for the revolution?
-FuturePassed on Sunday, November 25, 2018 10:22 p.m.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

and the sexist assholes as the "norm," but YMMV. Smile

up
0 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Anyone who uses the word all or assumes it automatically discredits their opinion.

up
0 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

The neoliberals came by and plucked the movements against racism and sexism like I would pluck low-hanging fruit off a tree. Now they're walking along grinning, munching them.

up
0 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

elenacarlena's picture

mini-skirts, I gotta tell you: This never happened to me. I went to Church twice a week and if something like that had happened, 1) I would have told my Dad, and b) there would have been one dead pussy grabber. There were a lot of bad things about a more churchy society that didn't allow people to be who they were, but letting men put hands up skirts wasn't one of them. My dates met my Dad before we went anywhere for the first time, and they knew to be respectful or else.

So one of us lives on a very different planet.

up
0 users have voted.

Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

Some are more protected from the start (by family, or status, or luck, etc.), and there are different worlds in different areas, different economic circumstances, and different occupations.

up
0 users have voted.
elenacarlena's picture

not sure how much difference that made.

I'm sure these things went on, but I don't think it was so normal that men talked about it like it was just part of life. They knew it was predatory. They knew it was unacceptable. They were "alpha" so they didn't care. Other "alpha" males would go out of their way to protect women. So I find it hard to believe that boys would chit chat about this stuff in the locker room. If there were grabbers in high school, I would have been grabbed.

up
0 users have voted.

Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

So apparently your environment was protected or your status protected you. Not everyone is so lucky. Other people have different experiences, just as real.

And yes, many of them do really talk like that among themselves. Even "nice" educated men will pick it up quickly to be cool. Or manly, or something.

up
0 users have voted.
elenacarlena's picture

But I was far from alone in this. We heard about girls letting boys go too far and ending up pregnant, but never heard about boys just taking what they wanted. We all wore those micro-minis that would have made it easy.

I of course was never in locker rooms, so I have now asked my brother. He agrees that there was NO locker room talk along the lines of "I can just grab her and do anything I want". If there had been, they probably would have responded, "You better not grab her, her Dad will be all over you".

He says it was more, "How far did she let you go?" and probably 75% of the bragging was teen fantasy. Some of the boys would say, "I never kiss and tell," and get ragged on by the rest that they must still be virgins, which everyone pretended not to be.

But my brother says that every time he dated, he faced the same fathers playing the same "mean Dad" game my Dad did: "I'll be waiting up with my shotgun, so you be sure to have her home by curfew, and I had better hear that you were a gentleman". Those few times things went a little farther than intended, he says it was two horny teenagers involved, nothing attack-y. And still, when they said, "Don't tell my/your Dad, he'll kill me," they thought that was literally true.

I'm not trying to say assault never happened back then, of course it did and that is why fathers were so protective. I'm saying it was not any more normal then than it is now. These guys operate in secret. They want to normalize it because it protects them. They did not go around bragging about it to a general audience or they would have been pegged as weird. They may have coopted a small segment of peers and bragged to them.

I'm also not saying it was ideal back then. We were mortified by our paternalistic fathers and rebelled when we could - thus the miniskirts, which our Dads objected to, but fortunately our Moms would agree that we had to be fashionable. But before we were wise to the ways of predators and asserted our independence during the women's movement, Dads, and sometimes brothers or cousins, asserted themselves as our protectors. They would not tolerate this kind of talk about their daughters or sisters or other female relatives, or even friends or girlfriends in some cases.

Again, nothing is ever 100%. But Trump talk is not normal locker room talk of any generation. Also, the bus talk is from 2005, we're not talking his little chit chat with Billy Bush as something from the 1970s, I just looked it up.

And here's a new twist: Don Jr. thinks if women don't want to put up with this, we should just quit our jobs, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-jr-women-harrassment-wo...?

I like the subheading: Tree, meet apple.

up
0 users have voted.

Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

Big Al's picture

world and I can't recall hearing anyone talk like Trump did. Sure, guys would talk about sex and getting some "pussy", their own prowess, things like that, but to brag about grabbing pussies of women they didn't know, or feeling so entitled that they felt they could kiss and fondle any woman they wanted, I guess those guys never made it on any of my teams.

up
0 users have voted.

much thought as to why men are so protective of their daughters?

It's because they know what men are like, and don't want their daughters subjected to that behavior.

I used to think that protective fathers were just idiots - but they know what they are doing, while the young, naive women they protect are generally clueless at that age.

up
0 users have voted.

dfarrah

riverlover's picture

to their daughters. My daughter still ended up pregnant and we have never discussed what else was done to her. Now all is fine, she is a nurse and gets tits grabbed by women more than men.

I got hit on a lot in graduate school by faculty men, even husbands of female associates. But the power aspect it an awful long hill, with calculations necessary sometimes about advancement. I worked in a male-majority space and it was easiest to be one of the guys, which is how I behave generally, or did while working.

up
0 users have voted.

Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Common or frequent isn't the same as normal. No, it's not a good thing, but it is, sadly, widely accepted. If you want to be sickened, drop in on a rape trial sometime. It's a horrifying demonstration of how little things have changed since the Middle Ages, as far as attitudes toward women go.

up
0 users have voted.

the underpinning by which men -- and fathers in particular, probably yours included -- asserted the patriarchal authority to control their daughters' activities, usually until such time as a husband came along to assume that role. Young women from "nice homes" were discouraged from going away to college, from getting jobs in the city, and so on.

Feminism dynamited that authority, at the same time that it attempted to bring out in to public light and curtail the ugly realities that justified the authority. And, truth be told, feminism has had great success at the latter -- many would argue, to an extent that threatens something fairly fundamental in human relationships.

up
0 users have voted.

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

elenacarlena's picture

single-sex dorms. There was still a sheltered protectiveness there. Although we snuck guys in all the time! And they behaved themselves.

I don't think you meant this last part like it reads to me: "Feminism has had great success at the latter," the latter being "curtail the ugly realities that justified the authority". But feminism curtailing ugly realities has done so "to an extent that threatens something fairly fundamental in human relationships". What? Getting rid of ugly realities threatens fundamental relationships? Is that what you meant to say?

up
0 users have voted.

Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

effort has involved controlling -- both by law, and by alteration of social norms -- at a fairly precise level the characteristics and quality and vocabulary of communication, especially in mixed-gender settings, including the very particular mixed-gender setting of one male and one female "alone together" (a nice little phrase, full of poetry and portent). An engineer would instantly recognize this situation as a dynamical "system", and would understand immediately that the application of controls to any component of the system must inevitably have higher-order downstream consequences, some of which are almost certain to be viewed as overall "negatives". Engineers describe such a situation as an "Engineering tradeoff".

up
0 users have voted.

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

elenacarlena's picture

ask permission if unsure? I haven't noticed guys being significantly uncomfortable. I'll have to start asking about their perceptions.

up
0 users have voted.

Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

of your question, reducing the entire matter to a question of "permission". permission to do what, exactly? to speak the next sentence in one's mind? the next word? to add one's tongue to a kiss? etc.? (it's worth observing that in the context of that simplification, Trump's assertion about grabbing at crotches is that he was stating that the permission was there.)

but of course, the nuanced negotiation that is courtship has its behavioral roots in circumstances that predate language, never mind morals and ethics, by about 100 million years. indeed, one of the founding drivers of all societies is the effort to do something about that problem.

so, yes, it's incredibly fucking hard to "read body language". the wise male needs to be more or less constantly checking his impulses and correcting the perceptual biases that those 100 million years of evolution have built into his psychology. right up until 15 or 20 years ago, other than the risk of conflict with another male, there was rarely any significant penalty for misreading a woman's intentions, compared with the very significant reward for making the attempt and being right. it is unsurprising, then, that men appear to be hardwired to comically -- or pathetically, if you're less sympathetic -- overestimate the likelihood that any given woman is "interested".

here again, we have at least 2500 years' worth of western poetry, prose, song and art in which men have quite clearly expressed the conflicts and conundra that color their relationships with women, leading themselves again and again into folly. how is this news to anyone? the famous feminist statement, that "men are afraid women will laugh at them; women are afraid men will kill them," is important not just for the stark contrast in the satirical point it makes, but for the simple truth of the first clause, a truth founded in the reality that men know that they will make fools of themselves in pursuit of women. the underlying point is that men are afraid, not just that women will laugh at them, but that they will deserve it, because they will have behaved like idiots, because that's what men do. men are afraid of the astonishing power that women can exercise over them, a basic truism that, as i have said, is abundantly illustrated in the output of those artists who have, through the millennia, been the appointed spokesmen for their society's males.

meanwhile, modern american mothers are warning their sons to obtain signed consent from their college hookups, finally reducing even the romance of youthful passion to a sterile transaction.

up
0 users have voted.

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

I don't want to be offensive, but maybe no one wanted to grab you. And there were LOTS of girls who loved to tease. And why were micro-skirts and tight tight sweaters the uniform of the day?

up
0 users have voted.

I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

elenacarlena's picture

so I don't take offense. If I had a certain non-teasing reserve that kept boys respectful, then I'm fine with that! If rumors of my frowning father's shotgun got around school and kept boys' hands where they belonged, I'm fine with that too!

That said, a fatherless girl should be able to tease and flirt without a guy thinking that's an invitation to assault.

"Tight tight sweaters" (body suits, actually) and micro-minis were the uniform because we were rebelling against 1950s conservative housewifey dresses, loose sweaters and long skirts. It was fashionable, and the worst thing a girl could be was unfashionable. We were groovy, baby!

up
0 users have voted.

Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

In my opinion it's assault if you don't stop after "No". That's why I hated it back in the '80s(?) when that book "The Rules" became popular and boys no longer knew if "No" meant "No". If women/girls say "no" when they mean "Yes", how can you blame the men/boys?

Besides, there were stages of "grabbing". Yes, it's extremely crude to go for "home plate" without going through the stages from "first base". Only a jerk (like Trump) would do that.

You may have had no desire for sex, but I have it on good authority (female classmates at later reunions) that they wanted it as bad as the boys. that's what they said, but it's hard to believe. I think "almost as bad as the boys".

There was a regrettable double standard that "boys will be boys" but "girls that do it are sluts". When will we ever have sane sex rules?

up
0 users have voted.

I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

Cachola's picture

The non-assaulted ones were either ugly or saintly. That's the reason no 80 year/old or baby in diapers has ever been raped or molested. Yep!

up
0 users have voted.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.

elenacarlena's picture

somehow perceived as dangerous by the predators. A tendency to stick close to teachers, or a brother nearby. Predators don't want to get caught, they'll try to isolate.

up
0 users have voted.

Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

Cachola's picture

from personal experience not always. My father, grandfathers and uncles on my father's side were respected and somewhat feared and still my sister, cousins and I were subjected to a lot of the behavior discussed here. Part of the brazenness I think was due to the fact that a woman would be seen as damaged goods, or provoking the attack, or to feel ashamed, so it was in her best interest just keep quiet. Also, the world is big and we were not always in the circles where the males in the family had any influence.

And to make clear, in case it wasn't obvious, I was being totally sarcastic at the commenter suggesting that a woman not being attacked was due to her lack of attractiveness.

up
0 users have voted.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.

elenacarlena's picture

happened so that he could handle it and I totally bought into that, so maybe that showed somehow. I would not have been silent, I would have "tattled," and probably enjoyed the subsequent slow torturous painful death!

Later, of course, I was in the big world, took some steps to try to keep myself safe such as not going anywhere alone with a man I didn't know well, and probably otherwise was just lucky. I know I pushed my luck a few times but it happened to turn out okay.

Yes, I know you were sarcastic, I was more or less agreeing with you, from a less sarcastic perspective, and responding to the same commenter at the same time.

up
0 users have voted.

Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

Cachola's picture

These kind of thing did not happen because women were not careful. They happened in school, they happened at the library, they happened for Christ's sake at church and at the doctor'soffice, at work and at the movies and on the bus. The last time it happened to me was in a freaking nursing home! I wasn't a resident, lol. I used to help feed people who could or would not do it for themselves and this old coot looked at my D cups and tried to grab. Same with one of the nurses assistants, did not grab but commented. This kind of behavior was pervasive. What is surprising to me is that you were not subjected to it.

(I should not have to add this but I am one of the least flirtateous or sexy-dressing women who ever walked this earth.)

up
0 users have voted.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.

elenacarlena's picture

elevator eyes. And on rare occasion on the bus. Not grabbing, but pressing up against. That's it. And I've been all those places at length. While I'm not flirtatious and now dress comfortably, I had my years of dressing sexy. That's why I mentioned the micro-minis, those things almost exposed everything, it's not like grabbing would have been difficult back in those days. We all dressed like that and no one reported any grabbing. Girls would have talked amongst ourselves presumably, at least, if it was an issue.

I'm sorry you've had so many encounters, that sucks.

But still, if most men do not try to grab you, then grabbing is not the norm. It's way too common, I understand that. Hell, once is too common. But the diarist, as I read it, is trying to say that Trump's behavior is the norm. Unless more men are grabby than not, then grabbing is not the norm. Someone trying to grab us sooner or later, yes. But most men being grabbers, no.

up
0 users have voted.

Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

riverlover's picture

Most fathers, including mine, including my husband, were remote beings who did not understand women or girls. And had little interest in trying, at least in my case, my father was involved only to nod when I made good grades and got a degree and another degree. He wanted a scientist-offspring and got one out of two. The other, he tossed off as not-serious.

up
0 users have voted.

Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Unless you are some anti-sex nut that doesn't know the difference.

up
0 users have voted.

I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

importer's picture

knew that. I never thought of it at the time, but it probably saved me a great deal of trouble. Living in a strong neighborhood and school district where most people knew one another, having a strong father figure (the guy who threatened the date with genital mutilation), having brothers and cousins who could do some damage - all of those things used to protect middle-class girls from a lot of this stuff. Not that one didn't run into the occasional jackass; but, if their intentions weren't good, they usually shopped elsewhere.

I knew of guys who had "steady" girlfriends they took out on date night and the rest of the time they rutted like pigs with girls who couldn't say no or didn't know any better.

Our writer is totally correct. Women and girls on all levels endured a lot of crap and kept their mouths shut because if they complained is would be assumed that they invited the advances in some way. Our current politically correct response to such advances is a very new situation and don't think for a minute that we can't slide right back to where we were in a very short time.

up
0 users have voted.

We could take care of ourselves and most guys weren't into rape. Pushy and gropey to see how far they could get and if you really meant no, but most did take no for an answer.

I never saw myself as assaulted, and I never saw the guys I knew as criminals. I still don't.

up
0 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

in the 70s.

up
0 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

snoopydawg's picture

Covered up each other's affairs or how many people knew which congress man was diddling his male interns and they didn't expose his conduct.
Or the other members who covered up the other members doing those things to the women who worked for them.
And how many women had accused Bill Clinton of sexual harassment or assault and what Hillary said about them.
But IMO, what is even worse is Hillary laughing about how she got her client off after he was charged with raping the 12 year old girl.
The greatest defender of women and children!

up
0 users have voted.

It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

It still is that way in the real world, and in some ways it's gotten worse, as women have moved into more "male" occupations. We seem to be more of a threat as we do more (not that we have a choice if we want to survive), and we therefore need to be put in our places by more aggressive sexual behavior. In our culture, sexual behavior is also dominance behavior.

There's a lot of covert acceptance still of battering women, too. The old attitudes are still there, and the capitalist emphasis on competition also legitimizes abuse of anyone vulnerable in any way. Lots of strands here.

And hey, let's also talk about Hillary's defense of the rapist if a 14-year old child. Ugly. Very ugly tactics.

up
0 users have voted.
CS in AZ's picture

It sounds like you are saying that because sexual violence and violations "used to be normal" in the past, we are supposed to accept it as still normal and ok now. Is that right?

Just want to make sure if I understand your message before addressing it.

up
0 users have voted.

A. This is how things were.
B. People who think things were otherwise are mistaken.
C. A whole lot of people would be very disappointed, not to mention shocked, to discover exactly the sorts of things gotten up to -- in the past and more recently -- by people they know, admire, respect and love.

It is always ... frustrating when a conversation about facts is transformed into a conversation about values because people address their own emotional responses rather than the actual language at hand. It is the sort of thing that makes it impossible to suggest that perhaps a major element in "solving" terrorism would be for the United States to abandon its imperial imperatives -- because now one is "blaming the victim", and "hating America" and "refusing to admit that 100% of the responsibility lies with the terrorists" and so on. I defend neither Trump nor Clinton nor Other Clinton, anymore than I was defending the 9/11 terrorists when I observed that what they had done was no worse than the things that their enemies -- including some of the people in those towers -- had done to the terrorists' own communities. Moreover, as I indicated, I simply do not care about this issue as it pertains to these particular candidates. Our federal and state legislatures are full of people whose attitudes towards women are just as fucked up as are Trump's, for the very same reasons:
A. Such attitudes are far more common than some people seem to believe
and
B. Politics -- and any other realm of endeavor that brings power and/or fame -- attracts the sort of narcissistic personalities who seek to indulge their worst impulses and who view other humans with essential contempt.

I find it curious that there is speculation in the comments about the social context of my own upbringing, as if, by extension, one must live in a slum to understand that slums exist. I've never been to Thailand or the Dominican Republic, but I know enough of the world to know that there is a child-sex trade in both countries, and that the people who patronize that trade are not down-and-out losers who, when not traveling abroad to rape children, lurk around playgrounds while fiddling in their pockets. Growing up in a suburb is not an excuse for not knowing about the horrors that go on outside the suburbs, many of them perpetrated by folks who leave the suburbs in the morning and return in the evening.

Generally speaking, "Normal" is situational and fluid. For most people, "Normal" is whatever behavior they are willing to go along with in a given situation to avoid alienating themselves from the immediate community; it is also driven substantially by deference to authority. We know very well that people will do things that, if they were outside observers, they would judge as absolutely unacceptable. Thus, it was perfectly "normal" for the brothers in George W. Bush's Yale fraternity to brand initiates on their tailbones, using a red hot coat hanger -- after first showing the initiate a much larger "branding iron" so as to maximize the psychological terror, and even the experience of pain. It's not at all clear that this was W's idea, rather than a tradition he inherited as president of the fraternity.

The things that Trump is accused of saying, thinking and doing certainly were, and to an unknown extent still are, the cultural norms of the "fraternity" of alpha males who run our society's institutions. Telling yourself otherwise just because you have in the moment an outed exemplar to pillory is really just a form of scapegoating -- sacrifice Der Drumpfenbiest and all the other sins are washed away. What most surprises me in all this is the number of people who are "shocked, shocked" to discover that wealthy powerful men abuse their charisma in order to exploit and abuse women. I suspect that one of the few things I have in common with Donald Trump is that he is similarly surprised, as well as bemused, by the naivete on display.

up
0 users have voted.

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

elenacarlena's picture

Politics -- and any other realm of endeavor that brings power and/or fame -- attracts the sort of narcissistic personalities who seek to indulge their worst impulses and who view other humans with essential contempt.

Not so much the rest. Not every rich and powerful man exploits women. We have our allies now and we had them then, some of whom are a lot more famous than Trump, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/25/famous-male-feminists-men-suppo...

I feel bad for you if your experience in the 1970s was that exploitation was normal. But that is no more the reality than my experience in the 1970s that exploitation was unheard of. I realize that I was sheltered. But there are men speaking out this week saying that this is not normal locker room talk and never was. I think you overstate your case, and it comes across like you're defending Trump, "He's just a normal guy". He's not. In 2005, he was saying that he committed and commits sexual assault. Are you willing to let him get away with indulging his worst impulses?

up
0 users have voted.

Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

talk is extrapolating from personal experience and asserting that the world as they have experienced it is The World As It Is. I'm absolutely stunned that there are people who don't comprehend just how toxically misogynistic much of male culture has been, and continues to be. There is nothing -- nothing -- particularly remarkable about a man of Trump's background and age cohort behaving the way that he behaves.

Suddenly, I feel as if the entire spirit of American Feminism has simply evaporated.

up
0 users have voted.

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

elenacarlena's picture

But asserting that this is normal is also YOU extrapolating from YOUR personal experience.

I have been a feminist probably since before you were born, and the vast majority of men of my acquaintance agreed with me and supported me.

So no, I don't think that the majority of American male culture is toxic. I've only been assaulted by one male boss among an array of male bosses. And I don't think Trump is normal.

But when abnormal toxicities rear their ugly heads, I will fight them. That's what feminism is. That's why I won't support Trump or the Clintons.

up
0 users have voted.

Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

How can you be so certain that you close off all other possibilities?

There are at least 5 tracks in this conversation that are being interchanged willy nilly. Bananas, apples, oranges are all fruit, but they are not the same fruit.

up
0 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

elenacarlena's picture

environment in the 60s and 70s that extended to college in the early 1980s. I am not saying that no one gets attacked because I did not.

However, if you are neither attacking others' bodies repeatedly nor being attacked repeatedly, then it is not normal. Is anyone here being attacked by most people they encounter on a daily basis? No? Then it is not normal.

To say something is normal is to say that most people usually do it. If we were under constant assault by most people, I'm sure I'd know about it. As would you. In fact, it probably wouldn't even be illegal.

I think it's not common. Some people on this thread think it is common. I understand that probably has to do with the environment one grew up in.

But even if it is relatively common to be assaulted, that still does not mean that most people you encounter assault you. If it is less than half, then it is not the norm.

It's just definitional. But it's a rationalization by the Trumps and Clintons of the world, "Boys will be boys, I'm not doing anything anyone else doesn't do." And that's wrong. There are plenty of men who don't do this stuff.

How many men do you know? Of those, how many have assaulted you?

up
0 users have voted.

Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

merely extrapolating from my own experience, i'm referencing knowledge acquired through 5 decades of compulsively seeking information.

For example, Larry Sloman's tone deaf journal, "Thin Ice: A Year in Hell with the New York Rangers" explicitly details the anal rape of a new player -- astonishingly, names are named -- using the butt-end of a hockey stick with liniment on it.

Here's an article with the details of a story from 5 years ago, about a high school wrestler who was subjected to a variety of sexual and other abuse.

Here's an ESPN article that lists some high profile incidents. When reading these, remember this: Like rape, only a very small fraction of this stuff ever gets reported -- the cost to the victims of going public is simply too high.

Try googling "high school wrestling sexual assault hazing". Don't stop on the first page, most of the results will only refer to the most recent high-profile horror show, last february. Among other things, that horror show led to the publication of this NY Times article.

Etc.

up
0 users have voted.

The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

we're having trouble because someone is trying to take it from us and repurpose it.

And I don't mean anybody on this site.

up
0 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

TheOtherMaven's picture

C. A whole lot of people would be very disappointed, not to mention shocked, to discover exactly the sorts of things gotten up to -- in the past and more recently -- by people they know, admire, respect and love.

My first cousin shocked me silly one day, now a large number of years ago, when she casually mentioned that our mutual great-uncle, after his wife became non-compos and "unavailable" to him, "suggested" that she should take her place. Cousin said no, he backed off, and that was the end of it. But still!

up
0 users have voted.

There is no justice. There can be no peace.

lunachickie's picture

A. This is how things were.
B. People who think things were otherwise are mistaken.

Talking about "How things were" (or even "How things are") is not the same thing as condoning those things.

It is always ... frustrating when a conversation about facts is transformed into a conversation about values because people address their own emotional responses rather than the actual language at hand.

Responding in such a way in the face of facts, repeatedly, even when others have tried to be patient and tried to explain and tried to engage, is beyond frustrating to many people. The conversations need to take place, and the addressing of our own emotional responses instead of addressing what's actually been discussed, keep that from happening. And that's not going to get any of us anywhere.

up
0 users have voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

the politicians and pundits who are shocked, shocked at Trump's comments are acting like they didn't know he was a sexist bastard, when anybody who was aware of Trump would have had ample time to see it.

The floods of Republicans abandoning Trump b/c this is a bridge too far are seething w/hypocrisy, as are the Clintons, who have been buddies with Trump and his family for years: yet we're supposed to believe that none of them knew Trump was a misogynist pig.

People are also acting like they didn't know there was a culture of patriarchal "right to sex" that was, if not unchallenged, definitely ascendant up until quite recently; like they didn't know that rich white men, in particular, were able to make use of that with next to no consequences--because rich white men avoid consequences as a matter of course in this culture.

The atmosphere of shock generated by the political and media machines is hypocritical as hell, and is not feminist. There is nothing feminist about erasing history. There is nothing feminist about erasing the existence of institutional, normalized sexism, which most of us grew up in, and pretending it's a shocking individual occurrence on the part of a Presidential candidate. Finally, there's nothing feminist about pretending that everybody didn't already know that Donald Trump is a misogynist piece of shit, including most of the Republicans who are now decrying him, and the Clintons themselves.

Frankly, I'm insulted by this "October surprise" on multiple levels: it's cheap manipulation of the public. But the public seems to be willing to play along, instead of telling them all to go to hell.

up
0 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Bisbonian's picture

A) it should have happened

B) it is good that it happened

C) I like that it happened

D) it should continue to happen.

I think all of that should be obvious, but apparently it needs to be pointed out.

up
0 users have voted.

"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

You can speak for yourself but not others.

up
0 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

CS in AZ's picture

I didn't speak for anyone.

I read the post last night and didn't understand the point of it. Still don't. It seems to me stating the obvious, about how things "were", which everyone knows, while failing to notice that things really have not changed much, nor caring about that.

I've been around here since the great migration in March. This is the first I'm aware that I "always" twist what is being said. I don't believe that's true, but you're a moderator here so I'll bow out now.

I've enjoyed my time here until this week, but I guess I was mistaken in feeling this place was a good fit for me.

up
0 users have voted.

I've had the same experience for a week and a half. I'd just about decided to write quietly to moderators that I was leaving for a while. I still may.

up
0 users have voted.

the right and the left both have triggers and the PTB know exactly how to push them. They want us fighting each other rather than fighting them.

Don't give up, don't give in, see through their game. We are being manipulated.

"There you go man, keep as cool as you can. Face piles and piles of trials with smiles. It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave. And keep on thinking free."
~The Moody Blues~

up
0 users have voted.
Big Al's picture

People defending Donald Trump, I don't get the point either.

up
0 users have voted.
CS in AZ's picture

It's very interesting that just recently when Anthony Weiner was outed for "inappropriate sexting" there was a lot of people around here dancing on it and scolding him and saying how gross he was and how his wife should leave him, she's a doormat for putting up with such a "dog" (which is an insult to dogs). yadda yadda.

I didn't see a single post defending his behavior as just normal guy stuff, what's the big deal, let's not pretend this is unusual and anyway, Bill Clinton is worse.

The recent twisting here to rationalize supporting Trump no matter what is surprising. I'm still taking it in and trying to understand it, but I don't.

up
0 users have voted.
elenacarlena's picture

If only Trump assaults are somehow "normal," that does sound like this whole idea is being promoted by Trump followers, doesn't it? My suspicions are raised.

up
0 users have voted.

Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

Anja Geitz's picture

Took pictures of his erection while his sleeping child was next to him, it was viewed by many as a deviant pathological affliction. Might be why people were so universally in agreement about the nature of it.

up
0 users have voted.

There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

TheOtherMaven's picture

except instead of hanging out on the streets in a raincoat (and nothing else), he uses the Internet.

Flashers are fetishists and definitely not normal.

up
0 users have voted.

There is no justice. There can be no peace.

tapu dali's picture

Isn't it 'dirty raincoat'?

up
0 users have voted.

There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

or rationalizing his behavior, you have indeed misunderstood me.

up
0 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Pages