A road not taken: major disagreements and the continuity of cohesion
On Friday, I left my home to travel to Marin County, visiting my brother, Alphonse, and his family. As such, I was detached from an apparent brouhaha developing over the issue of sexual harassment, leading to flame wars, outrage, and abandonment of this site. Being unaware of the essays which may have triggered such a response, certainly not my own essay on Sexual harassment and the Court of Public Opinion
People: we have little power. More is being usurped by the PTB daily. As of yet, the CPO is one of the few potent weapons we have. I am not advocating beheading but I am advocating exorcism from the body politic. Without citing previous essays of political corruption written by myself, and others as well, it is my contention that the vast majority (but not all) of national elected officials and many local ones are psychopaths. Psychopaths are incapable of reformation. No treatment can provide them with the chief characteristic which they lack: concern for their fellow citizens.
Today, arendt published an excellent essay quoting from Robert More's play, A Man for All Seasons:
More: What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you — where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast — man's laws, not God's — and if you cut them down — and you're just the man to do it — d'you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.
Now, legalistically and morally this dictum of giving the benefit of the law even to the devil is admirable. But where does one equivocate, if equivocating at all, with this concept? The deck is stacked against the 99%.
My contention is, as stated in the essay:
If you have money, power, fame, you don't need to show up in court, you send your flack lawyers to court, file motions for change of venue, motions to dismiss, motions for lack of jurisdiction. This series of activities by itself, regardless of associated pro-rich prejudices, leads publicly funded (usually underfunded) prosecutors to give up. After all, prosecutors are judged by their conviction rates, rightly or wrongly. They go after the low-hanging fruit--us.
I am first to admit this is a dicey proposition to deny equal justice under the law. More about this, perhaps in another essay. This however is not the purpose of this essay. Comment threads often get diverted because of poor thesis exposition by the author, a fault of which I have been guilty many times, but I would hope that the commentary for this essay follows not upon this legalistic recommendation/suggestion quoted above.
In ignorance of the essay/essays which may have provoked this flame war, and of the author(s) involved, neither of which are important really, some thoughts on the deeper meaning of such disputes are appropriate.
The good:
1. JtC's moderating essay to which particular heed must be attended. Having had Johnny slap my wrist (gently) on a few occasions through PMs for my over-reaches, I appreciated both his tact and his judgement. Even if this wasn't "his" site, which it most certainly is, I found his cautions appropriate.
2. Steven D's Here's what c99 means to me is both heartfelt and appropriate. Others may disagree; fine. Let them.
3. The comment threads accompanying both essays largely were amongst the best I have ever read on this site--or any--site. There was some flame-throwing, especially to JtC's essay, but it was pretty well-contained.
The bad:
1. Suggestions that there be "more administrative pre-emption" (i.e., censorship) of topics or commentary through various mechanisms. If this were to evolve, then c99 would become nothing more than a pared-down TOP. If I want censorship, I'll go to Google or MSM. I love this site because of the intelligence of community members, their different sources of information, the differing of view-points, the humor, and most of all, the general civility and mutual respect for each other.
2. The appearance in the comment threads of the first two cited essays of personal disparagement, no matter how subtly expressed, to others' opinions. This has no place in a blog such as c99, or at least, what its intended purposes are: to promote fact-based political opinions to which personal correlations may or may not be appended. Ad hominem attacks, no matter how phrased have no place in discussions here. Passion, yes--expressing one's own personal stance is appropriate--but denigration of others is not to be tolerated. To me that is the cornerstone of a blog such as c99.
We do not and should not expect even the most reasoned arguments to convert others to our line of thinking.
A man convinced against his will,
is of the same opinion still
Then consider this ancient wisdom:
That I convince you of my viewpoint does not prove that I am correct.
That you convince me of your view point does not prove that I am wrong
If community members are aware of their own fallibility (a universal human trait) and then agree to disagree civilly, then we have a formula for cohesion. Neither should we desire, nor seek, uniformity of opinion. That is weakness disguised as unity.
This essay originally was to be about the POLITICAL ramifications of the current #MeToo exposés, certainly not the emotional and moral aspects of such revelations. Apparently, many on this site are weary of even discussing this topic--although it does deserve further discussion. Note, some of the comments to JtC's essay were spot on.
In the Spirit of Community, I offer:
Comments
disagreements
In very deed.
One example of this very thing is a disagreement which occurred between myself and Can't Stop The Macedoian Signal in this kerfluffle. We disagreed, yes, but we did it c99 style, which is exactly what you advocate above.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
@thanatokephaloides Certainly. It's easy for
Certainly. It's easy for us, because we already liked each other.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
easy for us
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Well said, AE.
You verbalized exactly why I love and support c99p. Thank you for this thoughtful essay.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Better Angels...
Great essay Ed.
There will be no censorship, no closing of threads. There will be open discussion.
C99p will default to it's original precept: DBAA, Don't Be An Ass. Open thoughts and open expression, yes. Disparagement and insults, no, hell no.
I take blame for the recent spates of acrimony in the threads, it is on me. I let it go. I honestly thought that letting folks scream at each other would help get it out of their systems. I was wrong. I should not have allowed the personal invective. The disagreement was good, the vitriol was not. I was remiss in that respect. I have let the c99p community down.
I have listened to all comments the last few days and I have reflected.
This essay will be the last of the free for all.
Let Better Angels prevail.
PS: Ed, I did not visualize our PM discussions as a gentle slap on the wrist, I saw them more as gentle suggestion. One must be very, very careful when approaching an alligator.
That's why I love it here!
This is my kind of swamp!
(+++)
took a big man to do that.
may have saved the day.
edit. to the essential
I usually try...
to check my ego at the door. I'm not always successful but I try.
more focus on the id
A good approach to commonality. Thanks JtC and gator man
question everything
See my comment to arendt's
See my comment to arendt's post on the subject of due process.
Great video of Nader
I bet this fine charge to the law school undergrads will be ineffective to change the course of 90+ % of those attending" "I can't afford your morality, Ralph. Get real!"
@Alligator Ed And they would be
And they would be exactly right. And if Harvard has some kind of loan forgiveness for some of its students for doing work for the poor and needy, fine and dandy. But the vast majority of law schools will not be so kind.
Nice
Well put and encouraging.
Marilyn
"Make dirt, not war." eyo
Thanks Al
Without open discussion we are no better than TOP.
Without decency and respect for one another, especially when we disagree, we are no better that TOP.
And no one wants that.
"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott
Rec'd!!
Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.
I think I said my piece in JtC and Steven's essays...
but maybe it is worth repeating here if you don't mind AE...
That means allowing others to hold views with which you disagree, being civil to one another when we disagree, and thinking about the other person's situation and why they might hold views which you find offensive.
My first take on the kerfuffle was to put it all on JtC, but the more I thought about it the more I came to the conclusion that we should all work to promote civil conversation, and it is up to all of us to call out inappropriate comments and behavior.
When you find yourself in a hole, the best strategy is to quit digging. Let's help each other recognize when we are digging that hole.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
@Lookout
Thank you! There are too many great comments on the thread of this wonderful essay and the situation it addresses to make comment on, but you have mirrored so closely my own views on this that I just had to say thanks at this point, both to you and to JTC for keeping space in our lifeboat for free discussion without pitching anyone varying from a set 'norm' in all areas overboard.
Kill civil discussion and the introduction of different views on a discussion site, and what's left? At least for those of us who appreciate the site (and especially the membership forming it) as is and for what it is and will hopefully remain.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
@Lookout
Thank you! There are too many great comments on the thread of this wonderful essay and the situation it addresses to make comment on, but you have mirrored so closely my own views on this that I just had to say thanks at this point, both to you and to JTC for keeping space in our lifeboat for free discussion without pitching anyone varying from a set 'norm' in all areas overboard.
Kill civil discussion and the introduction of different views on a discussion site, and what's left? At least for those of us who appreciate the site (and especially the membership forming it) as is and for what it is and will hopefully remain.
Edit: sorry! No idea how this posted twice, while taking forever to post at all, at least from my end... but extra thanks all round are in order anyway, lol.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
I feel sometimes very lost on C99p, because
I don't understand what people mean when they say something. I think I got parts of your essay about the Court of Public Opinion wrong or had not the intellectual stamina to read very slowly and often enough through it.
As I got upset with on the cusp in your essay, I just wanted to say it again. I still have the feeling I didn't understand what you or on the cusp said. Makes me a bit sad and tired. I blame it on myself. I guess most of you write so excellently well and funny that I don't get the content right, sometimes. How often do I find me saying to myself, if only they would be less wordy, less fancy, less sophisticated and more simple or more clear. But that's me and I guess it would be boring for all the rest of the community, if you were. The only excuse I have for my being here is that I feel as a less well educated and less capable person to express myself verbally, I can't be the only one and certainly belong in the crowd of all of the 99 percent of the whole population. In that sense, I stay and sometimes say something, silly as it may be. And I am grateful to the admins and the community that they tolerate me and are kind. Thanks.
https://www.euronews.com/live
Don't feel lost, mimi; you have amazing comprehension
How many languages do you speak? Certainly a lot more than most of us. The idiosyncrasies of language often take years to learn, even after immersion in the culture. If you need help with immersion, please crawl on this alligator's back. I promise to stay above water--at least most of the time.
@mimi I always appreciate your
I always appreciate your posts, even when I don't agree with them. You don't mince words. You just say what you're thinking and feeling. You make me think. That's a good thing.
"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi
"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone
@mimi
Mimi, I may only be an occupant of the peanut gallery, but for what it's worth, I'd like to say that I happen to think of you as one of the site assets - and you are far from the only person here to ever get confused or misread something. And I was born in North America and was raised speaking English...
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Mimi, in my estimation, you do exceptionally
well expressing yourself. Frankly, I assumed you were a native speaker, until you made mention of your background. Plus, your views are always interesting, and in my opinion, insightful.
So, don't beat yourself up. I've been running around talking about my impression of (what I perceive to be) media manipulation regarding the #MeToo movement--completely oblivious to the fact that it was making some members uncomfortable, if not distressed, because they thought I was trying to shut down the conversation. (which was definitely not my intention)
Anyhoo, you've been here since the beginning--you can't quit now!
Have a good one!
Mollie
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage."--Lao Tzu
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
Thank You, AE, Centaurus, EN, UL, you are all so kind to me
I didn't deserve it, but I am so appreciative of all your friendly words and encouragement.
Thanks to all.
https://www.euronews.com/live
while i'm a 'former diarist' at c99,
i'd like to offer a word or two. i'd tried to read some of the several diaries on comments, ad hominems, civility, etc., and if i understand it, most of the heat came from #MeToo discussions, not I/P. that was jtc's example, iirc, of what can happen with that issue, or did, at daily kos, iirc. is TOP the same site?
well, anyway, what i'd thought to say was that mot of the heat i felt here was due to the fact that most of you seem to be liberals (including socialist democrats), and some of you push back mightily against the idea that this is a class-based society. some of you may not be anti-imperialist, anti-capitalist, either, and love your icons so well you won't brook any criticism of them.
at my home website, mind-blowingly, i get a lot of pushback on my diaries in which the Intercept and the Freedom of the Press organization (by way of the goofy boing-boing authors) hit julian assange hard, and i chronicle it. most of the commentariat is pretty comfortable with various brands of eco-socialism narratives, and most do stay civil. i've only ever blocked one commenter over the years, and although he was a brilliant commie, he could get abusive on the boards at times, perhaps due to mental health issues, off/on meds, who can say?
i wish i could remember what had caused jtc to moderate me long ago, but i did take it as an invitation to leave. perhaps you remember, johnny? but later, i'd sent him a link to a diary i'd written, asked him if he might drop it into the evening blues or something, and hola! he posted the whole thing as a stand-alone post, bless his heart.
but yes, civility matters, but so does arguing at times, doesn't it? i think the adage is 'when there's more heat than light: uh-oh!' and ratcheting jtc's 'don't be an ass' is an economics blogger (i've forgotten his name at the moment) whose moderation list of six things not to do ends with: "don't be an asshole". i use it myself now and again. (smile)
but best heart to all of you in sorting this out, and keeping on.
Hi wendy...
good to see you around. Let me see if I can unpack some of this.
The example I referenced in my essay was in no way about DKos. Yes TOP is The Other Place aka DKos.
I think the "push back mightily against the idea that this is a class-based society." that you say you witnessed was most probably after the great migration from DKOs that happened here in March of last year. And yes, we had a huge influx of new members and some of them most assuredly fit the description that you provide. Things were pretty crazy around here for a while. If you'll think about it, before the migration, when we were much smaller, most of the original members were in tune with your ideas and you posted quite a bit then. I think that now that the participation has slowed down here that the majority of members that are active would agree whole heartedly with your class observation.
You must realize that we consider ourselves a nonpartisan blog and opinions of all flavors are welcome here as long as they are civil. So yeah, if you're going to post here, by no means expect everyone to agree with you, that's not how we roll.
Honestly wendy, I do not remember you and I having a problem. If we did it would have been over insulting behavior or some such, and I just do not remember that happening with you. I do remember you being frustrated that you were getting push back and also that you had problems with the formatting and that's why you asked to me to transfer your posts for you, which I happily did several times. But I just do not remember us having a problem.
That is spot on.
I wish you would post here again, you may be surprised at what you find. Or maybe not, but you wont find out until you try. Right?
mornin', jtc, and a good solstice to you.
(dunno what
We have some...
radical leftist, not so radical leftist, some fed up totally with electoral politics, some who wish to remain within the electoral paradigm but want to work outside of the existing Party framework, some that want to work inside that framework and reform it from within, some want to blow the whole system up, some are left of center, some are centrist and even some members who lean a bit to the right. The 99% runs the gamut of the political spectrum. Our wish is to reflect that spectrum.
We welcome them all as long as they are civil. We'll never move this country until enough of us come together as the 99%. IMHO, the class war will never be won until enough of us unite.
@JtC
That being why we love you and the site! Eternal thanks from the peanut gallery - would that most places were more like here...
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
mornin', johnny.
i'll freely admit that i can't imagine that eight years of obomba didn't radicalize everyone on the left of center continuum (not that that's an easy definition). i also am mind-boggled at how few understand that herr drumpf is a local next devolutionary step after him, as well as the last five commanders-in-thievery. call it fascism, call it inverted totalitarianism, whatever... but the orange Tweeter is crass, crude, bellicose and hubristic enough to not have to cover his doings with pretty words and nice smiles, and we should be glad of that, imo.
as far as 'enough of the 99%, etc.', i know that's kinda an article of faith in this nation. but i can't see it ever making a difference at the ballot box for a whole variety of reasons, and i further believe that it will take a massive global revolution of consciousness to wake enough people to finally say 'Enough! you've stolen our lives, our labor, our lands, our health, and any prosperity we labored for. we mean to rule ourselves with equality, dignity, and empathy for all!' (or something like that, lol.)
but for me, busting the con jobs and agitprop of the status quo is a large part of why i still blog. luckily, the commentariat at the café are smarter and wiser than i, and all have better memories, to boot. arrg. but now i can't see the rest of your comment, and...er...forgotten the rest.
@ Ellen North: pleased to meet you, too. unfortunately, a load of brain damage i'd sustained a couple decades ago seem to have predispososed me to early dementia. i'd kinda clawed my way back (sorry for the inelegant verb) from the damage to my grey matter and established at least a few new neural pathways, which is the reason why i started writing for our local free press. but as i said, i keep the café colors easy on my eyes and brain, and even paid the big buck to be able to tweak the css code to make tweets and videos smaller. sometimes i just click in to click on the banners of my photos a few times...to get renewed a bit in spirit and wonder at the natural world. and best holidays to you, as well. https://cafe-babylon.net/
@Alligator Ed: thank you, good word to live by: flexibility. adaptation helps a species, i reckon, but can act as the 'boilng frog' as well, lol. thanx for the tune; kinda sounded like one or two of my fave weird al's; here's one of my faves for you. can't sit still w/ titi and friends! cripes, i can't even tell how do do this with the hints right before my bleepin' eyes...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5HfGrTUvz4
Something keeps getting in the way Wendy,
the Democratic party and this duopoly political system. Seems it's harder to shake for most people than you might think.
You are so right!
There is no issue which does not have an opposite. Our personal jobs are to evaluate the options.
@wendy davis
An awful problem to have, and one which I hope can be rectified, or at least alleviated! Thank goodness you're evidently able to manage this (and other sites), despite this, so that this at least doesn't also rob you of your voice and ability to read and comment where you will.
At any rate, pleased to meet'cha and may your holidays and other days be happy ones!
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Wendy, the path forward is never straight
Flexibility is a necessity for survival (which is a major reason the Duopoly is bound to implode--or explode). Your comments here show you can write expressively. Your eloquence is needed. Please contribute from whatever vantage point you may possess.
After all, a website that allows inputs from larks, dawgs, 'lizards, and alligators certainly has places for Monarchs.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBiSJ8jCTjA]
Hi, WD! Second JtC's sentiments. As
you probably recall, there are no ideological litmus tests, here, and all views are welcome.
So, please don't be a stranger!
Hope you and your Family have a wonderful Christmas.
Mollie
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage."--Lao Tzu
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
good solstice and holidays to you, as well.
thanks, blue.
Renewed Hope for Mankind
Self
Family
Community
When I start with myself the rest will follow. Glad I was witness to how this site evolved this week!
Happy Solstice
That indeed is the point of this essay
We disagree, if we do, but in the ensuing discussion, when done civilly, we all learn. The commentariat to JtC's and Steven D's posts did reflect a maturation of expression, not that I have noticed much immaturity. The diversity here is our mental fertility encouraging new outlooks which otherwise might not have arisen. This is a "think tank" of the truest source, one not funded for narrow political or social purposes.
Happy Solstice to you, ES! Totally agree
with your succinct and well-expressed sentiments.
Hope that we'll see more of you in 2018!
Mollie
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage."--Lao Tzu
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.