This is what I was afraid of

Two weeks ago I wrote Androphobia: Fear of Men.
It got an interesting mix of responses. Some responses amounted to saying that I was over-reacting. To which my response is "I'll believe my own lying eyes over your opinion. Thank you very much."
Then today I saw this article.

Now the cascading accusations were reaching deep into the heart of the mainstream media. Charlie Rose … Matt Lauer … Mark Halperin … even liberal outlets like NPR and the New Republic were not spared. For that matter, not even the New Yorker and the New York Times were spared: At the Times, star political reporter Glenn Thrush is under investigation, and the New Yorker has just fired its star political reporter, Ryan Lizza, over “improper sexual conduct.”

Some of these cases were clearly and inexcusably abusive – the actions egregious and the corroborating accounts damning.
Others, however, were less clear.

OK. That's to be expected.
But keep reading.

Normally when a publication decides to fire a reporter for cause, it does one of two things: It quietly announces their departure without stating a reason, giving the reporter some room to find another job; or, when the malfeasance may have impacted the reporting, it announces exactly why the person was fired, publishes the results of the internal investigation, and makes it clear which stories are being corrected or rescinded as a result of the reporter’s misbehavior.

The New Yorker did neither; after what appears to have been a fairly brief investigation, it announced that Lizza was a sexual abuser, but left the rest of us to guess at what sort of abuse might be involved. Lizza, meanwhile, says: “The New Yorker has decided to characterize a respectful relationship with a woman I dated as somehow inappropriate. The New Yorker was unable to cite any company policy that was violated. … This decision, which was made hastily and without a full investigation of the relevant facts, was a terrible mistake”.

Tavis Smiley of PBS reports a similar experience:

PBS launched a so-called investigation of me without ever informing me. … Only after being threatened with a lawsuit, did PBS investigators reluctantly agree to interview me for three hours.

If having a consensual relationship with a colleague years ago is the stuff that leads to this kind of public humiliation and personal destruction, heaven help us. The PBS investigators refused to review any of my personal documentation, refused to provide me the names of any accusers, refused to speak to my current staff, and refused to provide me any semblance of due process to defend myself against allegations from unknown sources. Their mind was made up. Almost immediately following the meeting, this story broke in Variety as an “exclusive.” Indeed, I learned more about these allegations reading the Variety story than the PBS investigator shared with me, the accused, in our 3 hour face to face meeting.

Now, I don’t know the truth of Smiley’s or Lizza’s cases; I don’t have enough detail to form an opinion. And yet, that in itself seems disturbing. It seems safe to say that few of these men will ever work in journalism again; there is a blacklist, and unless they can conclusively clear themselves, most of their names are on it.

Just like I said two weeks ago, you don't date, flirt, or do anything that can ever be interpreted as informal with a female coworker. Not anymore. Not unless you want to risk destroying your career.

Blacklisting people so cavalierly is hard to defend. But with “believe all women” the order of the day, that’s effectively the new regime we’re looking at. No outlet wants to be deemed insufficiently concerned with sexual abuse. And even if a company were willing to endure the public outrage, its lawyers seem likely to advise against it. After all, if you hire the guy who got accused of sexual harassment, and he does it again, the company is going to be on the hook for a whole lot of money.

This is what I was talking about before, when the woman lawyer described what sexual harassment was in a legal sense. She wasn't lying and she wasn't wrong.
If the woman feels uncomfortable then it's sexual harassment. End of story.

That's how employers approach it. It's about liabilities, not right and wrong.
What is actually true is secondary in importance. It costs them virtually nothing to destroy a man's career, but it could be a huge risk to stand behind him.
What do you think an employer is going to do?

Some people don't want to believe that, but that's on them.

Ultimately the norm of reflexively believing every accusation, and meting out harsh treatment to every man who is accused, does grave harm to the cause of fighting rape and harassment. #BelieveAllWomen elides the messy reality that women, like the rest of humanity, aren't always telling the truth—and that even when they are, their interpretations of events is not always the most reasonable one. If we reify too many weak or false claims, the norm will quickly slide toward "believe no women."

That's where she is wrong. We are a long, LONG ways away from "believe no women."
That day may arrive one day, but it probably won't arrive during the remaining years of my career. In the meantime, men better get used to the new normal.

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Wink's picture

to my "hello... " from women under 30. Most keep their eyes lowered and keep on moving, fearful, I'm guessing, that my hello means I want to violently rape them or, at the very least, is an unwelcomed gesture making them uncomfortable at best. Most women over 40, on the other hand, respond with a hello of their own. On the other hand, one of the workers at my gym (25-ish, blond, cutie), Always gives me a "hey, Wink! another two miles?" Now, she's known me for ten years or so (but only at my workplace), since she was a kid. But that might be the difference. Must be strange, at least, for under 30 women to be fearful of a simple greeting.

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-1.9) All about building progressive media.

@Wink
I used to say that the "proper" response to "hello" was "GET AWAY FROM ME YOU PERVERT!!!" for years I thought that there was something wrong with me, that I was presenting myself as somehow threatening (I have abandonment issues and can look needy)But it wasn't me. It was fear, fear which had gone so far as to no longer care to be rational, to become hatred. I didn't see it in my working class high school, but I saw it universally in my middle class liberal arts college, and as the 80s progressed I saw it grow and grow. Today I am literally afraid to be in a room alone with a woman.

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A PROUD Hillary hater since 1993

@Wink
but I think the simpler answer is you have nothing to offer them; they have nothing to gain by engaging, even with polite indifference, with you. Don't get me wrong - I'm in the same boat!

I've been grappling with the uncomfortable notion lately that the women (singly and as part of couples) that my wife and I consider "our friends" are really just her friends. She's constantly getting invited to have "girls nite out" drinks and I think What gives?!? I like hanging out with all these people. How is their fun enhanced by excluding their spouses?

Because I know for certain that I would not have more fun doing anything without my wife, nor would I have more fun being exclusively in the company of men. In fact, the idea that I would seems preposterous!

Of course, nobody wants to give me an honest answer, and I'm starting to think that most women have a need in their lives for just a single male - their personal penis-supplier and pickle-jar-opener - and the rest of us can go to hell.

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@FutureNow

oowww!

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@Wink
holiday parties

Some companies are rethinking their year-end celebrations as sexual harassment accusations proliferate in business and entertainment. The result? More lunch-hour parties instead of boozy nighttime affairs, and events with a more limited selection of alcohol.
A few have even canceled parties this year, according to businesses that track the celebrations.
Chicago employment consulting firm Challenger, Gray and Christmas said 11 percent of the 150 companies it surveyed nationwide will not have holiday parties this year after throwing them in previous years. That’s more than double the number that skipped them last year.

Florida

“I had a senator say, ‘I need my aide here in the room because I need a chaperone,’ ” said Jennifer Green, a veteran lobbyist, after meeting with a senator in his Capitol office to discuss a client’s issue. “I said, ‘Senator, why do you need a chaperone? I don’t feel uncomfortable around you, do you feel uncomfortable around me? ‘Well,’ he said, ‘anyone can say anything with the door shut.’
...“I'm getting the feeling that we're going back 20 years as female professionals,” she said. “I fully anticipate I'm going to be competing with another firm that is currently owned by some male, and the deciding factor is going to be: ‘You don't want to hire a female lobbying firm in this environment.’ ”

California

A client of theirs relayed that the senator wanted women excluded from a meeting at a nearby watering hole. The reason: The senator and some of his colleagues had decided that, with accusations of bad behavior mounting against their fellow legislators, it would be safer to simply stop having drinks with lobbyists who happen to be female.
“If we are saying we need to change the culture, this is the opposite of that,” said lobbyist Jodi Hicks, whose client alerted her of the senator’s intent.
...After Hicks heard from the client who said senators didn’t want women coming out for drinks, she says she and her business partner sprang into action behind the scenes: They called the senator and other legislators to make plain that discriminating against women lobbyists would worsen the Capitol’s sexism.
Eventually, Hicks said, the senator apologized and assured them he would not bar women from the kinds of meetings he holds with men. The lobbyists, in turn, told him they would not reveal his name so long as the threatened ban never came to pass.

This last example I want to highlight. Basically these female lobbyists have blackmailed the senator with threats to make sure he doesn't do what he, and his coworkers, want to do - feel safe and comfortable while working.
Yeh, that'll go over well. I'm sure that it sends the right message. I'm sure it will encourage men to respect women and want them around [/snark].

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Wink's picture

@gjohnsit

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-1.9) All about building progressive media.

@gjohnsit

On the other hand, wasn't some Cheney-mentored Vice President, who happened to be Dark Ages religious and to evidently believe that women were property of men who should control their bodies and life choices, saying that he would never be alone with a woman in any business or nonpersonal context, thereby shutting women out of any career lines requiring personal contact, as The Good Lord Intended Back In Dino-riding Days? Could this be, at least in part, conditioning people to accept that women - sexual and untrustworthy creatures that they are - just can't have better-paying careers and had best revert to their designated Old Testament roles?

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7 users have voted.

Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Deja's picture

@Ellen North
I'll be stoned to death in a public forum for being naked, before I wear The Handmaid's Tale garb, though.

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"The gatekeepers must change."
Prince

Raggedy Ann's picture

@Ellen North

no answer from the whiners. I'm pretty sick and tired of men whining about this. Until they walk in a woman's shoes they can just stfu about the subject.

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"If there is not justice for the people, let there be no peace for the government." Emiliano Zapata

@Raggedy Ann

you aren't even responding to a man.

I was interested to see what set you off.

You came here with "whiners" and "STFU".

boy, oh boy.

Deja told me downthread my "hostility" was showing.

@Deja- your pal came to the party in a real bad mood, did she not?

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Deja's picture

@irishking
Please read JtC's essay. I have a feeling you're about to get a message from the moderators if you keep this up. Just sayin'. And yes, RA might too (though she's not commenting on this particular essay now), but I know, for a fact that she read it, because she commented.

https://caucus99percent.com/content/mother-all-destroyers-updated

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"The gatekeepers must change."
Prince

@irishking believes that the diarist 'overreacted.'

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dfarrah

smallaxe's picture

@Wink

So wink, do you greet strange men in the morning? How do they respond? Break it into age brackets for me, please. Start w/ the under 30's.

I'm old now Wink, retired, but when I was young & took public transit to work I got plenty of "acknowledgement" from men on the street.

That I fucking ignored them had nothing to do w/ my fear of ANYTHING. To me, guys like you were just random strange men on the street.

Rude strange men who thought nothing of interrupting my thoughts or a conversation w/ my young son.

We don't fear the men who "greet" us we just want them to stop.

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Wink's picture

@smallaxe
Male, female, young, old... if they have a pulse and are coming my way I nod and say hello. It's the way I was brought up. It's called being polite. I also call it acknowledging someone who likely hasn't been acknowledged all friggin' day. This is, after all, a cold cruel world. I find it to be generational. Even guys under 30 say nothing these days. Over 40 guys usually do. I just find it odd that "kids" these days blow off a simple greeting as if to say "fuck you!" Or, "how Dare you greet me! just who do you think you are?!"

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-1.9) All about building progressive media.

smallaxe's picture

@Wink

Perhaps some of the things we were taught were polite, wink.

You seem to believe humanity should be grateful for your morning nods & greetings and that we who won't respond are found wanting.

We were all taught enough horsecrap as kids that I think we have a responsibility to sort it through.

Women have had good reason to fear men throughout history & if you now, as a man, feel threatened by women speaking up, perhaps even dishonestly, then I say, well, it was bound to happen. Actually, seems a bit late. . .

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Bisbonian's picture

@smallaxe

Male, female, young, old... if they have a pulse and are coming my way I nod and say hello. It's the way I was brought up. It's called being polite.

By my grandmother, chiefly.

You seem to believe humanity should be grateful for your morning nods & greetings and that we who won't respond are found wanting.

I didn't see any evidence of that in the comment...even after going back to look for it specifically.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

@Wink

I used to smile at everyone; they used to smile back. But I had a few too many guys, here and there, apparently think it meant I wanted to boink them (and seriously ask why did I smile at them if I didn't); sad state of affairs when friendly courtesy between one's fellow-humans and passing a smile around (often works kinda like a chain letter, only nicer, lol,) triggers some to simply think that they can get something out of it... live and learn. But it sucks, as smiles/friendly greetings are just as contagious as frowns and can change your mood and day for the better.

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12 users have voted.

Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Granma's picture

I worked where I was the only female in more than one job and had no problems. I enjoyed working with those people. But I know harassment happens, and not just in high profile places. I know a couple of young married women working in minimum wage jobs who left those jobs because of sexual harassment by their bosses.

Some of what is happening now is wrong, just wrong, in how these things are being handled. The whole issue needs balance, and fairness to accusers and accused.

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@Granma

The whole issue needs balance, and fairness to accusers and accused.

But the geni is out of the bottle.
I think we are headed toward a chaperone culture at work.

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WoodsDweller's picture

@gjohnsit
only for a few months. It costs too much. Instead we'll go to an "all surveillance all the time" culture where all slaves employees are recorded every minute of the work day. Any gap in the surveillance log will indicate guilt, except in the case of a police cam "malfunction" during which a civilian was killed.

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I like this world. It's not perfect, but everything I love is in it.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Granma So right.

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The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

mimi's picture

if you want to get rid of an old male politician or truth digging journalist or TV show host, who says something you don't like, one would produce some women, who claim he had harassed them. It works, as it's shown by the examples in this essay.

Now, what can we do to get rid of an old female politician or truth digging female journalist or TV show host? How about one would produce some men who would "come out" and claim they have been harassed by women? I would love to see, if that would work the same way. If it would work, I would say...
Dirol

I read about the PBS firing of Tavis Smiley and had some comment in my fingertips to post here whenever it was - yesterday or the day before yesterday, I get nuts over the time zones between Europe, US East Coast, US West Coast, Hawaii, clocks on C99p, clocks on my comments etc. - But after the debacle I had with user 'on the cusp', I just said to myself forget about it, I will never get it right.
Aggressive

From your writing:

This is what I was talking about before, when the woman lawyer described what sexual harassment was in a legal sense. She wasn't lying and she wasn't wrong. If the woman feels uncomfortable then it's sexual harassment. End of story.

I doubt it is the end of the story. The lawyer wasn't wrong and she wasn't lying, but the only difference probably between the two cases is, that most men might not feel uncomfortable being
harassed/seduced sexually by a woman.
Man in love

I think I am not wrong and I am not lying either. Am I?
Shok

May be the solution would be to elect some Japanese robots into Congress and some pole dancing marionettes as harassing journalists. They are so damn insensitive to never feel 'uncomfortable'.
Wacko

What is good for the gander is good for the goose.
Blum 3

These unintended consequences, don't you love them?
Fool

With apologies to gjohnsit and all writers here who have talked about these issues. I forget who wrote what and have difficulties to connect what someone wrote with their names. That's my brain turning into a muddy pudding due to age. Sorry.
Scratch one-s head

It's one of those issues I don't like to discuss, because no matter what I would say, it's always wrong.
Cray 2

I want my ..
Good

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@mimi
You can change your time zone by going to My Account/Edit, scroll down t the "Local Settings" and change it to Hawaii's time zone if that's where you are at. That should help you with time/clock issue.

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mimi's picture

@JtC
to switch back and forth, because I crossed the time zones between HI and Germany too often. My inner clock is still in the MD East Coast zone and when I am in Germany, I just hate to have to read the EB after midnight and being too tired. And if I am in HI I am always too late to say anything. Now if the earth would be flat, that would be ... fantastico
... Smile

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@mimi
For example: one guy at work tells another guy at work a raunchy joke. They thought they were alone, but a young woman overheard it.
She mentions it to her boss or HR, thinking that the guy will just get lectured. Instead the company freaks out and fires him, ruining his life.
The young woman feels bad, but is too embarrassed to speak out. Besides, it is no longer under her control anyway.
End of the day: One guy gets his life ruined. All the men at work get paranoid. No real sexual harassment was defeated.

Another example is in my comments above.
Guys don't want to have drinks with female lobbyists because of the sexual harassment scare.
Female lobbyists find out and threaten to out them in public for gender discrimination. Guys relent under this blackmail, and are now forced to associate with people they don't want to.
Victory over sexual harassment? Not likely. It'll only cause resentment against women in general.

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mimi's picture

@gjohnsit
I think I will boycott lobbyists...

I can't help but make silly comments, because it's a difficult thing to talk about. Just to illustrate the difference in perception between some Germans and some Americans.

A long time ago, we (German TV studio in Washington DC) had an American younger female intern (very well educated) and she was told to work with me at my desk for a week or so.

Now, we watched the TV pool feed which showed some pictures of Angela Merkel, while she was in Washington DC (I don't remember anymore the year, but must have been between 2009 - 2012 ?). Somehow Merkel's suit's jacket was of a more lightweight fabric, so with a very sharp eye and a lot of interest in certain things, you could see Merkel's nippels peaking up under the fabric. The young woman got very upset and told me that this is not an appropriate way to dress and that Merkle lacks seriousness and professionalism. Oooohkaayyy ... I couldn't believe what she said and didn't know, if I should laugh or cry and ended up saying nothing, but admit having been quite happy when she finally had to switch to another co-workers desk in our studio.

I hope when Angela Merkel visits Trump in Spring 2018 that she doesn't dress up too 'risqué'. Who knows what could happen ... May be Merkel should inquire about breast binding bandages. Amazon will deliver on time and that would be the first time I would be grateful to Amazon for their services./s

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lotlizard's picture

@mimi  
at a summit meeting while the cameras were rolling — weird, no? But people just laughed, “Well, that’s Bush for you,” — he got a pass.

O.K., it was more of a shoulder massage than a back rub, but imagine what would happen if Trump did that? All heck would break loose.

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mimi's picture

@lotlizard @lotlizard
I do not want to name names, but some comments by some were just according to what I thought those users would say, before the issues ever were talked about in the main stream media and online. Let's say, if you follow a user's comment into the swamp, don't expect not to sink into it yourself and have difficulties to get out of it. Or in other words, don't expect to not wake up with fleas, after you slept with the dogs, or be dragged out of the muddy swamp like a Christmas angel in a white robe, all clean.

Misbehaving badly at a workplace is one thing women get very frustrated about and they would like that someone would be able to stop the person from misbehaving. As that almost never happens, the woman is a victim of the situation that 1. she can't get help to reign in the perpetrator and 2. if she does resent directly and openly, she has to fear for repercussions at her job.

What imo is overlooked in all of this, is which media tool enables whom to claim victim status or the reverse allow victimization of non-violently misbehaving men up to the point professional careers are destroyed. If a woman claims to be violently victimized by rape, she has to prove it and that is already traumatic enough, especially as labs often don't do their jobs properly, or not at all. If a man complains about being sexually harassed or molested by a woman, I wonder how he would have to prove that he was violently physically harmed. I have not heard yet, that women can physically harm a man by 'making unwanted passes on him'. But I learned here that there are cases where women's complaints can make men fearful for their professional careers. It's telling that the NYT just now writes about a case like that? The timing is ... oh well, just on time, I guess.

It's the TV news media and the online social media platforms that allow any sort of misuse and abuse on the psychological level, but if the claims are made against persons, whose work is in the political, media or journalism field, the media platforms just invite any kind of abuse or misuse.

So, I would say, it's alright to question women's motives when they accuse politicians or media celebrities they need for their own professional advancement. Through the media platforms they have power other women have not. Having power means that power will be abused. Therefore I think it is very justified to question and challenge those women's motives as compared to women, who never have the power to get help defending themselves against unwanted sexual advances. They would need help and don't get it. And I also fear that the media coverage and discussions about the women who "come out" against politicians or media celebs, will not help those women, who suffer under unwanted advances and potential threats alone, those women, who have no power and access to the media.

Just saying ... the unintended and unexpected consequences of potentially intentional misuse of media access is something one should watch out for and challenge. YMMV. Just my 0,01 Euros.

PS: The shoulder message Merkel got from GWB? Just as unprofessionally done as other things GWB did. Who cares? Weirdo is what weirdo does.

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lotlizard's picture

@mimi  

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@mimi
is one of those things that seems utterly insane until you consider the motivations behind it. It's still not logically reasoned, but it has been cultivated to a very particular sex-negative purpose.

Feminists used to proudly disdain the bra until they decided gender relations were a zero-sum game. If men liked it, then it must be a bad thing for women.

The Religious Right was always horrified at the image of a sexually free woman. Less religious, but socially craven women despise other women who refuse to adequately commodify their sexuality - those who "give away the candy store" instead of withholding it for maximum pay-off. Slut-shaming is very much the province of these two types.

Corporatists have a financial incentive to keep the public sexually frustrated and unfulfilled, so they can sell the "solution" to their problems. They don't make a cent off of people freely sharing themselves with each other.

Contrary to notions of actual comfort or health, American women submit to the discomfort of the bra for the primary reason of modesty. It is the western equivalent of the Burqua. A woman will insist that she "just feels more comfortable" wearing a bra, and then bitch and moan about it until she can finally take it off at the end of the day.

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Wink's picture

@FutureNow
And, no doubt that the only purpose of a bra is modesty. Nothing wrong with modesty, but why buy a $24 bra when one can buy a scarf for $7 ? Just wrap 'em up in a scarf instead. Gotta be Way more comfortable than a bra. And easier for us guys to dispense with.

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-1.9) All about building progressive media.

@FutureNow

And yet, male nipples are just fine...

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5 users have voted.

Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Wink's picture

@gjohnsit
And there really is no answer for women. They're damned if they do, damned if they don't. They want a level playing field, and that means having drinks with the men (where many deals are initiated if not closed). But, men no longer feel comfortable with a woman or women present for fear they'll end up on Huffington Post.

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-1.9) All about building progressive media.

Shahryar's picture

@gjohnsit I've learned that there are times to just shut up and listen.

When this #metoo started I saw a lot of guys saying "you're right, those men are terrible". But maybe the best thing is to sit back and consider how much of "those men" is in us. 50%? 10%? 5%? and try to eliminate that behavior.

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Deja's picture

@Shahryar
Thank you!

You, and Big Al are just a couple of the men around here who add volumes to, not only this uncomfortable subject, but also this site.

Many thanks to you both.

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"The gatekeepers must change."
Prince

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Shahryar The #YesAllWomen movement was helpful to me. But then created a horrible, vicious backlash, which, interestingly enough, ended my association with Daily Kos.

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The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

edg's picture

@mimi

You wrote "most men might not feel uncomfortable being harassed/seduced sexually by a woman".

I can't speak for most men, but I've been in situations more than once where a woman tried to seduce me and I found it very uncomfortable. Unwanted sexual advance means just that -- it's unwanted.

Despite the male stereotype, I don't think most men are eager to jump into bed at any time with any woman.

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@edg @gjohnsit how many men have been subjected to the same.

So maybe a men's metoo needs to be started.

(no, this isn't snark - women are aggressive, too)

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dfarrah

Pariah Dog's picture

@mimi

Now, what can we do to get rid of an old female politician or truth digging female journalist or TV show host? How about one would produce some men who would "come out" and claim they have been harassed by women? I would love to see, if that would work the same way. If it would work, I would say...

This seems to work quite well.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/15/us/andrea-ramsey-harassment.html

I've been waiting for this to start spreading. Frankly I thought it would take a bit longer, but then this is the digital age.

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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons - For thou art crunchy and good with ketchup

zoebear's picture

We are a long, LONG ways away from "believe no women."

How about we poke around and come up with some statistics on corollaries between conviction rates of rape cases in the last 200 years and the frequencies of the victim being victimized by the entire penal process? Or more precisely, the corrollary between defendants who have the financial means to use the media to impugn the accusers reputation and the conviction rates that follow as a consequence?

Frankly, I have no idea what this recent spate of accusations hopes to achieve, or what the motivation is behind them, but it seems that the potential backlash from the "believing all women" movement may very well share similar ties to the backlash that was felt from the Affirmative Action movement. In both cases the "wrongs" of the present are intractably tied to a history of hundreds of years of oppression by a class of people who felt they were entitled to do what ever the fuck they wanted.

So, perhaps we should be having two separate arguments that include both the past and the present.

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13 users have voted.

Soldier: What? Ridden on a horse?
King Arthur: Yes!
Soldier: You're using coconuts!
King Arthur: What?
Soldier: You've got two empty halves of a coconut and you're bangin' 'em together.

@zoebear
being brought low by an accusation of sexual harassment.
They are both the ones most likely to be guilty of the charge, and the ones who "historically oppressed".

The problem is that this doesn't stop there by any means.
I care about some poor shmuck who finds himself guilty of not understanding the situation, or using a poor choice of words, or simply being in the company of someone with a chip on their shoulder.
These things I understand because I've been guilty/victim of all of these things.
When you are poor working class in this country you operate without a safety net. One innocent mistake can ruin everything. And no one will even have any sympathy for you because it was your mistake for letting your guard down.

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15 users have voted.
zoebear's picture

@gjohnsit

I care about some poor shmuck who finds himself guilty of not understanding the situation, or using a poor choice of words

But I wonder, would you also include our very own "Wink", who brags on this site about ogling girls young enough to be his granddaughter, who doesn't understand how "men are able to keep it in their pants" due to their "caveman instincts", and who has also marveled out loud why "women aren't raped more" in your concern of men being misunderstood? If so, maybe someone close to him should have a talk to him about his tone deafness and his habit of putting his foot in his mouth in this new environment you are so worried about.

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16 users have voted.

Soldier: What? Ridden on a horse?
King Arthur: Yes!
Soldier: You're using coconuts!
King Arthur: What?
Soldier: You've got two empty halves of a coconut and you're bangin' 'em together.

@zoebear
Wink. Buddy. It's ok to have twisted thoughts. Even sjw feminists have them. But don't say them out loud. If you're unsure then stfu like I sometimes do.

But if you want me to police Wink or anyone else here you are barking up the wrong tree. I like to be offended sometimes. I think it's healthy. Our society has a stick up it's ass

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10 users have voted.
zoebear's picture

@gjohnsit

It's ok to have twisted thoughts

In response to a fellow blogger who wonders why "women aren't raped more" might warrant further clarification for any of us walking out the door wearing a vagina?

up
8 users have voted.

Soldier: What? Ridden on a horse?
King Arthur: Yes!
Soldier: You're using coconuts!
King Arthur: What?
Soldier: You've got two empty halves of a coconut and you're bangin' 'em together.

@zoebear
Have you seriously never had a twisted thought? You've never pictured yourself, say, beating an enemy into a pulp? Screwing over someone you love? Maybe something even worse?

Is your mind pure?

If so, then F YOU!

My mind isn't pure. I have twisted thoughts.
I'm OK with that, because I recognize them as being twisted. Humans are like that.

If your mind isn't pure, OTOH, then you aren't in any position to be judging my thoughts.

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6 users have voted.
zoebear's picture

@gjohnsit

To unpack your meaning in your use of the word "ok" in your reply. Specifically, in what way is it "ok" for "Wink" to believe that mere randomness is keeping his dick in his pants when he sees a 20 ish year old girl working out at the gym? Because that is how I am interpreting his "caveman instinct" thesis on why women are raped in the first place.

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6 users have voted.

Soldier: What? Ridden on a horse?
King Arthur: Yes!
Soldier: You're using coconuts!
King Arthur: What?
Soldier: You've got two empty halves of a coconut and you're bangin' 'em together.

Wink's picture

@zoebear and other women, maybe, to believe that the sentiments expressed by Wink are the sentiments of (at least) 60% (if not 85%) of single males over 17, but... I'm on the "normal" or "majority" side of that line. That's like saying 17 year old girls don't fantasize over being "raped" by the latest pop star. Raw, physical tear-her-clothes-off s-e-x. But she, zoebear, confuses thoughts with action. Hell, if men acted on every thought or impulse there would be a helluva lot more cars in body shops! I've thanked God many a time for leaving the telephone pole unscathed.
Women are raped becuz they can be. Simple as that. Even if caught perps rarely serve time, usually walk. We just don't think of rape here in the U.S.A. as a big deal, do everything to diss the victim, defend the perp. Want to end rape? Do what they do in Germany: One, legalize prostitution. Two, lock up guilty perps for a Very long time. Like 25 to Life. Amazing how quickly rape disappears when they lock up the rapists. As for the ass grabbing in the office... I don't know that that ever goes away without accosted women bashing perps in the face. Right there in front of everybody. But don't confuse thoughts with action. One rarely, if ever, leads to the other. And almost every guy over the age of 17 (or younger) has those /similar thoughts. And, yes, it's amazing more women aren't raped. It's only due to millenia of "civilizing" our male butts that we keep those thoughts to ourselves. And keep it zipped. I don't know, maybe you're expecting a kinder, gentler version of the male species, but at the end of the day we're mostly cave men. We want meat, beer, sex. We dress better, smell better, but... are cave men just the same. We're just not that complicated.

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2 users have voted.

the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-1.9) All about building progressive media.

zoebear's picture

@Wink

But she, zoebear, confuses thoughts with action.

Your original argument was that men are not far removed from cavemen and their behavior is driven by their "instinctual" sexual predilections. Are you now saying normal male sexual behavior can be conditionally driven? Which by the very definition implied in the cognitive abilities of the Neanderthal contradicts your entire blithering argument.

You are either a caveman whose behavior is driven by instinct. Or you are a human being capable of conditional reasoning. Cherry picking your "thesis" from both classifications is not only the most intellectually lazy argument I've heard on this subject, but unbelievably tedious to engage in on every imaginable level.

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7 users have voted.

Soldier: What? Ridden on a horse?
King Arthur: Yes!
Soldier: You're using coconuts!
King Arthur: What?
Soldier: You've got two empty halves of a coconut and you're bangin' 'em together.

@zoebear
see my comment directly below this one. This back and forth between you and Wink in essay after essay is getting tedious. I understand your position and truly respect it but I want it to stop. Please?

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5 users have voted.
zoebear's picture

@JtC

But feel as if the disgusting comments made here should not have gone unchallenged. It is rare when I call another member out, but the silence from seemingly the entire community over his remarks just sickened me.

I will take a break from visiting this blog and decide if this is a place I want to spend what little free time I have. Appreciate your position. No hard feelings.

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11 users have voted.

Soldier: What? Ridden on a horse?
King Arthur: Yes!
Soldier: You're using coconuts!
King Arthur: What?
Soldier: You've got two empty halves of a coconut and you're bangin' 'em together.

@zoebear
moderating a discussion board is no easy task, especially when open discussion is afforded. How long do I let it go? How do I step in without pissing everyone off? Should I even step in in lieu of the said open discussion tenet?

I hope to be wise enough to do this moderation thing but sometimes I just don't know.

Edit to add: I don't wish to thwart your engagement in this subject with other members of this site. It's an important issue that needs aired out. It's just that this back and forth with Wink and yourself has gone on over several essays with no advancement in understanding.

We are bleeding members over this issue and as always my first concern is the health of this site. Maybe I'm wrong but I just want to tamp down some of the acrimony without squelching the discussion.

I hope that's understandable.

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12 users have voted.
zoebear's picture

@JtC

From your POV and your focus on the site as a whole. I truly don't envy your position in situations such as this.

As far as furthering an understanding on the topic at hand, I, too would've preferred the "conversation" move in that direction. I may not have helped in that regard with my own comments, but in the brunt of the ignorant and ugly remarks I bared witness to, it felt too far backwards for me to bend in order to reach a more sanguine place in the dialogue. I hope you understand my position as well.

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11 users have voted.

Soldier: What? Ridden on a horse?
King Arthur: Yes!
Soldier: You're using coconuts!
King Arthur: What?
Soldier: You've got two empty halves of a coconut and you're bangin' 'em together.

@zoebear
and I hope the words between the lines I have written bespeak that position.

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5 users have voted.
janis b's picture

@zoebear

about the silence of the community regarding Wink’s disrespectful and provocative comments. But it doesn’t mean that there aren’t many here (female and male) who stand silently beside you. I think there are many of us who chose to remain silent for a variety of reasons, but whose sentiments are sympathetic to yours.

I just wanted to say this in the hope that you will consider re-evaluating the silence. I don’t think it is necessarily a reflection of a lack of support or understanding. But yes, it is also a valid criticism of the absence of a larger, more genuinely open and more meaningful discourse. And that is of course difficult in this limited and anonymous context.

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20 users have voted.
dance you monster's picture

@janis b

Not present enough (busy life) to carry on a protracted debate at this moment. In fact, for an issue that's so fucking obvious it seems abusive to expect it to be channeled into the confines of a civil debate. But facing off the cavemen, and standing with their victims, are many of us at this site and beyond. I'm only one of them.

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10 users have voted.

@zoebear and women, proven scientifically.

I would suggest that you study some of this material.

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0 users have voted.

dfarrah

@Wink
will you just fucking knock it off. Are you getting off pissing some of our members off?

I've let this go on long enough so will you just please stop and let it fucking rest.

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16 users have voted.
Wink's picture

@JtC

up
1 user has voted.

the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-1.9) All about building progressive media.

janis b's picture

@Wink

I personally find it difficult to relate to what seem like to me flippant remarks. I wish you would give more consideration to what and how you say what you feel. Then, I might find it easier to understand and respond to you.

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14 users have voted.
lotlizard's picture

@Wink  
is the increased incidence of sexual harassment and rape on the part of male migrants from North Africa and the Middle East, upsetting the relative social stability Germany previously enjoyed on this front.

The politically correct mainstream in Germany was stubbornly determined to remain in denial about this, until the events of Cologne New Year’s Eve 2015-2016 forced it into public awareness as a topic for political discussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany

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8 users have voted.
Wink's picture

@lotlizard
in the '70s. Had the "pleasure" of escorting a G.I. Joe convicted of raping his German "girlfriend" off to the local (Mannheim) German prison. I knew it would be a Long time before he got out. I thought then (and still do) that Germany does it right. Legalize prostitution and send convicted rapists off to the Big House for a Long time. Rape reduced substantially. But, we're still prudes Puritans here in the U.S., so... fat chance we'll ever see that. I can see the RW Televangelists now. Is sad that that balance in Germany has been messed with with the intrusion of refugees of a culture that never left the cave days. I wouldn't be surprised to see more of that behavior right here in the U.S. as we bring more refugees from "countries" that regard women as property.

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4 users have voted.

the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-1.9) All about building progressive media.

snoopydawg's picture

@Wink

Rape has nothing to do with sex! It's power over the person they are raping.

I've stayed silent about this issue, but I find your comments on this very disturbing and distasteful. I have much more to say about your comments, but I'll leave it at this.

up
10 users have voted.

Disclaimer: No Russian, living or dead, had anything to do with the posting of this proudly home-grown comment

Wink's picture

@snoopydawg
libbers of the '70s and '80s would have us believe. And, there's some, if not a lot, of truth to that. No argument from me. But, rape isn't just all about power. There Is a sexual component too. There was a post right here on C99 that essentially said what I just said. That dismissing sex from rape is b.s. Fact is, legalized prostitution (along with hard sentences) reduced rape in Germany substantially. To the point where it's not tolerated there. Rapists get locked up. And, I would suggest to those currently calling for whatever they're calling for, the usual psychobabble nonsense to change mens ways, to follow Germany's example instead. ymmv.

up
4 users have voted.

the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-1.9) All about building progressive media.

@Wink
I asked you to stop earlier and you persist. I think you need a little vacation, take a couple of days off.

up
9 users have voted.
TheOtherMaven's picture

@snoopydawg

Rape does indeed have something to do with sex, since it is the abuse of sex to inflict the abuse of power on someone else. In a sense it's the ultimate expression of contempt for another person - denying their personhood, reducing them to a thing to be used, abused and discarded. And, sadly, there will always be the kind of sexual psychopaths who commit rape. But it should never, ever be regarded as either "natural" or "normal".

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4 users have voted.

There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Deja's picture

@TheOtherMaven

. . . it's the ultimate expression of contempt for another person - denying their personhood, reducing them to a thing to be used, abused and discarded . . .

That's sex? Guess I've been doing wrong, all along. No wonder I'm single.

up
4 users have voted.

"The gatekeepers must change."
Prince

TheOtherMaven's picture

@Deja

and really ought to have been left in the far barbaric past. But....

up
4 users have voted.

There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@TheOtherMaven Such an excellent description/definition of rape. Well done, Maven.

up
4 users have voted.

The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

@snoopydawg
is a political slogan, not a scientific fact.

up
3 users have voted.

Sigh

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@UntimelyRippd UR, that statement operates on two levels.

1)Rape has nothing to do with sex (In other words, sex is in no way involved with rape. Obviously untrue).

2)Rape has nothing to do with sex (In other words, rape does not emerge from sexual desire, but from the desire to bully. The excitement felt by the rapist has little in common with the excitement felt by a person confronted with another human being who fits their definition of "hot," and a lot in common with the excitement felt by a bunch of school bullies giving the nerd a swirlie. A lot more true.)

up
6 users have voted.

The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
fact, though many people do assert #2 as if it had been persuasively demonstrated somehow. It has not.

up
1 user has voted.

Sigh

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@UntimelyRippd Well, the anecdotal evidence of the repeated rapes I experienced supports it, but of course, that's anecdotal. It's convincing to me--how could it not be? but no, it's not a scientific study. There are anecdotes I have heard from many other women, as well, but those, too, are not scientific, as you point out.

Since I doubt there's going to be any scientific study done on this subject by anybody I would trust--funding mostly doesn't work that way anymore, particularly on highly charged topics with a large potential political impact--

We might as well agree to disagree.

up
3 users have voted.

The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@zoebear I'd like to go on record that I don't agree with Wink on this at all.

I find that doctrines that base themselves on biological destiny, essential identity, and other kinds of inevitability are usually authoritarian and in need of justifications for cruelty. I view them with suspicion.

up
6 users have voted.

The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal of research on differences between men and women.

The brains of men and women are different; and the differences explain some of the inability to understand each other.

(My comment is not an attempt to justify rape)

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0 users have voted.

dfarrah

@dfarrah
populations if not across every randomly selected pair of individuals, then transgenderism wouldn't have any coherent meaning.

up
1 user has voted.

Sigh

Wink's picture

@gjohnsit

up
1 user has voted.

the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-1.9) All about building progressive media.

Wink's picture

@zoebear

up
0 users have voted.

the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-1.9) All about building progressive media.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@zoebear I'd say unexpressed thoughts haven't got jack to do with me. They're his problem. Once he starts expressing them, in words or actions, then they're my problem. And then he has a problem.

I ain't a little girl anymore.

up
3 users have voted.

The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

up
0 users have voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@irishking I care about zoe. I don't want her to leave.

up
6 users have voted.

The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal it odd that the women who are most upset about harassment are the same ones who dismiss the diarist's and other mens' discomfort over being harassed by women?

up
2 users have voted.

dfarrah

@gjohnsit

Agree! Most people appreciate beauty; it's normal and natural to enjoy looking at an attractive person of the opposite (or whatever) sex, and it used to be considered flattering to have a lot of the opposite (or whatever) sex enjoy looking at you, as long as they're polite and not too-crudely complimentary.

Seems to me that society is being socially engineered into a whole lot of tiny, separate islands all terrified of being trampled, having been trampled and used as commodities in too many different ways... and in being conditioned to regard each other as 'competitors' or potential predators/prey in a dog-eat-dog world where everyone is being carefully divided from everyone else to weaken both the individual and the whole.

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8 users have voted.

Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Wink's picture

@zoebear

up
0 users have voted.

the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-1.9) All about building progressive media.

Wink's picture

@gjohnsit

up
1 user has voted.

the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-1.9) All about building progressive media.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@zoebear Frankly, I have no idea what this recent spate of accusations hopes to achieve, or what the motivation is behind them, but it seems that the potential backlash from the "believing all women" movement may very well share similar ties to the backlash that was felt from the Affirmative Action movement.

I think so too.

up
3 users have voted.

The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

divineorder's picture

Twitter where she agrees with Matt Damon

up
4 users have voted.

A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

Big Al's picture

@divineorder like there's a spectrum of stealing or committing violent acts, or whatever. That's why there are varying degrees of punishment. It does not mean there should be no punishment for lesser offenses, just different levels of punishment. There can be reprimands, suspensions, leave without pay, etc., instead of outright firing. I think most larger employers, especially in government, have employee relations programs that try to be fair and consistent in how they handle workplace incidents. The entertainment industry, which includes the media because they're not there to tell us the truth, are outside the norm because of the money involved. Not the money from paying out for sexual harassment cases. It's about public relations. So they tend to mete our punishment relative to their overall bottom line. I don't think that's the case with most of society.

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9 users have voted.
Big Al's picture

it was standard practice to warn all employees to not pursue relationships with co-workers. It was also common knowledge employees should not flirt, say things that made people uncomfortable, and do whatever else that inhibits people from doing their jobs. You're there to work for an employer, not to get a date or flirt with others.

It was warned that if you do, you're asking for trouble.

Let's see, how far back can I remember? Forty years, ya for sure.
Served me well, I never had a single incident. Sure, there were a few times me and a female coworker became pretty friendly, a couple times a consensual feeling emerged that we never pursued. But I found that acting like you're supposed to act went a long way towards avoiding any trouble, or blacklisting.

Evidently some people missed the memo, or they just decided to not pay it any attention.

Are there going to be instances where a someone accuses another falsely? Sure, always have been and always will be. I don't see what's happening now any different from the past. It will happen. It's up to the employer to have a fair and reasonable employee relations system to insure situations are handled properly, facts are accurately discerned, and any punishments handed out fairly and consistently.

What we're seeing now is a bunch of One Percenters getting caught and because of the high stakes involved, some employers might be rushing to judgment and/or meting out punishment that doesn't fit the crime. I don't see that trickling down to the rest of society.

You got nothing to worry about if you act like a normal and decent human being.

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19 users have voted.
Raggedy Ann's picture

@Big Al

up
10 users have voted.

"If there is not justice for the people, let there be no peace for the government." Emiliano Zapata

@Big Al
unworkable denial of human nature to tell human beings that the workplace is the workplace, and that while they're there, they're not supposed to be human beings. "You're here to work. Leave your humanity at the door for the next 8/9/10/14 hours. You can be a human when you're alone in your car on your 45-minute commute home. Or at least, as human as a human can manage to be, sitting alone and isolated in a big metal box moving at 75 miles an hour past/through/around/amidst a bunch of other big metal boxes with humans in them."

up
3 users have voted.

Sigh

Deja's picture

@UntimelyRippd
. . . to act like a civilized human in public? I sure was.

Weren't you taught not to go into public and pick your nose or your ass? I know that many males have no problem scratching their balls in public, but they should - it's gross, rude and completely unbecoming.

Do you run around work like you did outside, as a kid? Do you dig in your nose or ass or balls at work - in front of others? (Hopefully not!)

Then why would you draw the line at treating your female counterparts, at work, with the same respect you'd give your grandmother (or someone you truly love, in a non-sexual way)? I seriously don't understand how this is soooo incredibly hard for some of you. It's reminding me of the witch in The Wizard of Oz".

up
10 users have voted.

"The gatekeepers must change."
Prince

@Deja
gjohnsit's thesis, nor the comment by BA to which I was responding.

With respect only to the latter, here's what we're talking about:

Flirt with a guy at work, and you're fired.

If that seems reasonable to you, then fine, that's a world you find reasonable. I'm telling BA that in my opinion such a world is not reasonable -- not only with respect to mating behavior, but with respect to any of many other essential behaviors that make humans humans, rather than robots. In my opinion, expecting adult humans to spend 50% of their waking hours not being humans is a seriously fucked-up way to run a society. Kind of like expecting 100% of 9-year-olds to sit quietly and attentively in a chair for 6 hours a day -- and if they can't, you diagnose them as having a psychological dysfunction, and medicate them into submission.

up
5 users have voted.

Sigh

Deja's picture

@UntimelyRippd @UntimelyRippd
Edit: I just learned to copy/paste comments I'm replying to. He deleted the part about the long drive home and having to be "human" on the way home after work.

And then strawman.

Wow!

As pondered below, I often wonder about The Ghost, when this flailing and gnashing of teeth happens.

up
6 users have voted.

"The gatekeepers must change."
Prince

@Deja
to anything.

In this particular instance, I was responding to BA's comment, which suggested (I will paraphrase) that when you're at work, you're there to work, not socialize. I think people should be socializing wherever they go. Telling them not to socialize is telling them not to be people.

Meanwhile, you decline to recognize or process what gjohnsit has claimed, which is that the workplace (in particular, though not exclusively) has become a milieu where you can get fired, not for jacking off in your car (or at your desk, or in the bathroom, or whatever), but (for example) for saying something to another employee that is overheard by a third employee, who takes offense at whatever was said and goes off to report you. But what is worse, you can now apparently be fired without meaningful due process, for something you may or may not ever have said or done, based on an accusation that may not even come from an aggrieved party, because there doesn't even need to be an aggrieved party, there just needs to be an HR department enforcer whose job is to get rid of potential liabilities and who has become aware of whatever it is that somebody thinks you may or may not have said or done. and then you can hope you can somehow pick up the pieces of your life afterward, whether or not you are vindicated.

Regardless, if you think this is all about men jacking off in front of their subordinates, you aren't listening -- not to gjohnsit, not to me, and not to some of the news stories that are currently circulating. What this is about is a witch hunt -- and when it's all over, if it ever is over, everyone will stand around feeling embarrassed and talking about how terrible it was and not ever admitting that they were part of the mass hysteria. That's how it always is in the aftermath of a witch hunt; yet we do not learn.

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5 users have voted.

Sigh

@Big Al and my experience as a 58yr old male has been pretty much as yours and I agree 100%.

up
10 users have voted.
divineorder's picture

@Big Al sitcoms and movies that have show love interests developing. Wonder if those helped change norms?

up
4 users have voted.

A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

@Big Al marriage say that about 15-20% of married couples meet at work.

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1 user has voted.

dfarrah

You mean you now have to go out in the world being vigilant about where you go, when you go, whether or not to go alone, worried an innocent glance might be misinterpreted and result in a false accusation? And that when you go to deny the accusation your word may not be given the benefit of the doubt? Well welcome to the club that women have been in for millennia. Only for women it hasn’t just been false accusations we’ve been at risk for suffering. You should count your damn blessings that you don’t risk getting groped, molested, assaulted, or raped if your vigilance should prove not sharp enough one day. And we know, until now, that we sure haven’t been getting any benefit of the doubt. Even in a case of rape with evident injury, physical evidence collected by a Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner (ponder that enjoyable process if you harbor any empathic capacity at all), we know how seriously that is taken, as hundreds of thousands of rape kits never get processed in the US.

Instead of aiming your anger at the rare false accuser — and I have nothing but derision for them — maybe you should aim it at the millions of men throughout history who have committed violent acts against women, and at the systemic protection they have received. You don’t like that your comfortable, safe status is threatened. You should be thankful that you have had however many years of life enjoying that status. It’s 100% more time than any woman has enjoyed it.

Cry me a fucking River, you poor, poor, victimized man.

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13 users have voted.
Raggedy Ann's picture

@TB mare

I was giving a friend a ride to his car. As I drove, he began to grope me. Smiling gleefully as if I had given permission because it was an honor for him to touch me, I was incredulous. I was also afraid for myself. Was I going to be able to navigate my way out of this unharmed? I was 37, he was 39. I was a manager for a small nonprofit, he was an attorney. He was also having an affair with my best friend, but I don't think he knew I knew. I'm thinking, he wants both of us AND he's married?

I have been sexually harassed before this incident and since this incident. Thank you for so eloquently voicing my opinion.

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13 users have voted.

"If there is not justice for the people, let there be no peace for the government." Emiliano Zapata

@Raggedy Ann I couldn’t sleep last night because of this post. Took me a while to get the nerve to respond.

Thank you for all of your contributions here, and earlier in LD’s daily BNRs at TOP. I’m mostly a lurker but I’m a loyal lurker.

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12 users have voted.
Raggedy Ann's picture

@TB mare

GoodPleasantry

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11 users have voted.

"If there is not justice for the people, let there be no peace for the government." Emiliano Zapata

snoopydawg's picture

@TB mare

It's good to hear from you and would like to see more of you here.

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7 users have voted.

Disclaimer: No Russian, living or dead, had anything to do with the posting of this proudly home-grown comment

@snoopydawg n/t

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@Raggedy Ann

Gross for you! Some guys are too ignorant and over-egoed to realize that being a disgusting and invasive big dick can never make up for actually having a little one... we've all had to cope with them and it's a nasty, creepy-crawly shock every time, especially if it's some jerk you may have to deal with at work or socially under polite circumstances. But luckily most men are not like that and would never actually abase themselves to that level.

I personally don't care about thoughts that may pass through a guys head as long as they stay there, but people who can't control themselves when they feel like using someone else need help, in isolation from society.

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9 users have voted.

Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

@TB mare
Collective guilt. The past crimes justify the current injustices. "I suffered, so your suffering has no significance."

Witch hunts -- and make no mistake, this is now a witch hunt -- are always wrong, they're one of the worst diseases of human society. The result is inevitable: Bad actors take advantage of the social hysteria to punish people they don't like while garnering attention for themselves.

At least I finally can relate, in whatever watered-down way, to one aspect of the historical experience of african american men -- I now literally feel obliged to avert my eyes when encountering a woman on the street. No, I don't do so out of fear that I will be beaten to death in a back alley, in fact, I don't do so out of any particular fear of suffering any real consequence -- I do so because I've been conditioned to believe that it is wrong for me to walk down the street holding my head up and meeting the gaze of a particular class of what might otherwise be thought of as my fellow humans and social equals. At least I'm not expected to tug my forelock.

Go cry your ironic river, while our culture lurches around spastically reacting without reason or insight to each perturbation in whatever the momentary settlement might be to the oldest and most intractable of all human social problems. When men you love get caught up in this firestorm, you'll sing a different tune, but it will be too late, and nobody will be listening, because you'll be on the record: "It's rare. Kill them all and let God sort them out."

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7 users have voted.

Sigh

@UntimelyRippd The OP’s not actually experiencing any injustices; he’s experiencing discomfort moving through his world for the first time and is whining about it. My wish for the result of this reckoning is that all of us get to move through the world with the degree of comfort he has heretofore enjoyed, the loss of which he’s now feeling. He seems utterly unaware that what he feels is what women have always felt and for far more frightening reasons than he has.

Where you interpret “kill them all...” from my comment is beyond me. Quite a stretch.

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11 users have voted.

@TB mare
on the subject, suggest that he is unaware of the historical difficulties of women. That is all you. In the end, you decline to address the core of his "complaint": Creating a social environment where men are afraid to be in the unrecorded, undocumented company of women is not in the best interest of anybody, male or female, but that is what this latest witch hunt is doing. This is no longer about childish vanity -- it can no longer be reduced to the clever-and-thought-provoking-but-never-was-wholly-accurate observation that "Men are afraid women will laugh at them; women are afraid men will kill them." It doesn't fucking matter if men are afraid "only" of losing everything but their lives, while women have historically had to fear losing even their lives -- what matters is that what men are afraid of losing is real and non-trivial, and what's more, their fear is justified.

Meanwhile, nothing in your comment suggests any interest in any short or long-term resolution other than, "Fuck all you Y chromosomes. Too bad so sad. We suffered, now you suffer." I stand by my characterization of the implications of your comment, whether you like it (or own it) or not. A lot of good people are going to be destroyed in this witch hunt, because during witch hunts, false (whether deliberate or misguided) accusations lose their rarity; but even worse, whatever progress has been made in trying to establish a culture in which men and women can comfortably function as equals and social partners is going to be lost, while simultaneously we are going to allow ourselves, in panicked response, to be subjected to yet more surveillance. Blech. So glad I'm going to be too old and/or dead to give a fuck.

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8 users have voted.

Sigh

@UntimelyRippd I said it in the post. Don’t know how to copy and paste here, but you can go back and read it.

“Kill them.”

“Fuck all you Y chromosomes.”

Nowhere do I remotely sound like that.

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9 users have voted.

@TB mare
you denied that the OP was suffering any particular injustice -- which isn't objectively true to begin with, but even if it were, it is incorrect to suggest that one is qualified only to speak out against those injustices of which one is oneself a victim. "Who are you to speak out against child abuse? You aren't an abused child!" I'm sorry, is that argument supposed to make sense to anybody?

meanwhile, you expressed nothing suggesting any interest in any solution of any kind.

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4 users have voted.

Sigh

@UntimelyRippd “My wish for the result of this reckoning is that all of us get to move through the world with the degree of comfort he has heretofore enjoyed, the loss of which he is now feeling.”

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7 users have voted.

@TB mare
privilege is how you express an interest in a solution, then okay, I grant that you have expressed an interest in a solution.

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6 users have voted.

Sigh

Raggedy Ann's picture

@UntimelyRippd @UntimelyRippd

are you upset because you need to look straight ahead, yes and avert your eyes from women? Welcome to my, and millions of other women's world.

Edited to add: I apologize for lashing out. As a woman, I just wish we could all respect one another as human beings and allow each other to live our lives in peace and harmony. Pie in the sky? Look around us. We are in the challenge of our lives. If guys would just say - hey I'm not guilty so I'll be vigilant to ensure women are respected - or - hey I know of someone or have been guilty myself, so I'll change my behavior. The cat is now out of the bag. We have to go to an extreme to find the center. It will run its course. Let's help that happen in a positive manner.

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9 users have voted.

"If there is not justice for the people, let there be no peace for the government." Emiliano Zapata

Deja's picture

@Raggedy Ann
That's what I've been thinking lately when I read the 'poor me' comments and essays. Lots of these #metoo incidents are many years old. Makes me wonder if they're 1) upset that they can finally get in trouble for behavior they know is inappropriate, and 2) those closet skeletons might be scratching and rattling at the door.

This isn't rocket science, either. People shouldn't do or say things to others at work/in public that they wouldn't do or say to their grandmother (or someone they truly love and cherish in a non sexual way). If they behaved that way, there would never, ever be any 'scary' gray area.

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12 users have voted.

"The gatekeepers must change."
Prince

Raggedy Ann's picture

@Deja

Thank you.

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8 users have voted.

"If there is not justice for the people, let there be no peace for the government." Emiliano Zapata

@Deja
being "tried" under current cultural standards for transgressions committed under a different set of cultural standards, neither gjohnsit nor I are expressing any great concern over the fate of, you know, actual perpetrators.

what i think disturbs both of us at this point is that all notions of due process, and of innocence-by-default, have been thrown out the window. This is the essential difficulty. When an african-american male in 1958 was at risk of a brutal, pitiless execution-by-extended-torture should any white woman ever suggest that he "behaved inappropriately" towards her, he would do whatever he could to avoid ever being in a situation where such an accusation could possibly be brought forward with any credibility -- and anyone observing the situation would say, "That is fucked up and unjust, but he's behaving exactly the way any rational human would." When gjohnsit says, "When a man -- especially any man with any meaningful social status -- is at risk of losing everything he has (family, money, job, status) should any female with whom he ever interacts accuse him of behaving inappropriately, that man will do whatever he can to avoid ever being in a situation where such an accusation could possibly be brought forward with any credibility," he is told that men should STFU and live with that risk, because, you know, lots of men (hell, most men, let's face it) have behaved badly -- or worse -- for the last 100,000 years.

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6 users have voted.

Sigh

Deja's picture

@UntimelyRippd @UntimelyRippd
I know there are people out there who will lie, cheat and scam to get what they want, and I've witnessed it in real life. All sexes are guilty - worked with a hate-filled saboteur bitch from hell once, and a racist male supervisor, I believe was grooming the young Hispanic males who were the majority (grooming like a predator would). Both are pieces of shit and make me wish hell existed. Those people give the rest of us bad names and make it harder for us in pretty much all aspects of life. It's just a fact.

If you feel the need to never be around women in public, I think you are taking it to the extreme, but it's your choice. Despite being ogled, groped, harassed, and even raped, I refuse to believe that all men are scary, horrible ogres I must avoid at all cost.

Hell, an employee at the campus where I work, literally stared at my crotch as I walked past him while he sat and ate at our annual winter feast, yesterday (Fri). It was so obvious (he turned his head as I walked by, my crotch near his eye level, and he never looked up at my face) and gross. Even though I know I shouldn't have to, I asked my female co-worker, when we got outside, if I had freaking camel toe or something. Why would a professional, stare at someone's crotch, at work? She informed me that his name is Gus, and he's a creeper. Still, I don't distrust all men; but, now I have added a creeper to avoid to my list at my new job.

It's what we've been dealing with forever. I guess you just need to learn to deal with it the way we have - by making lists of the ones to avoid. I'm sure as hell not going to relinquish my power, and hide in my house because men are outside of it. I like men. I love every single man in my family.

Edit: every not ever single man
Add: these are not legal issues until they've been taken up by cops/prosecutors. These are businesses. If the ones being fired feel they've been wrongfully terminated, they can file suit, just like ignored harassment victims have to do (or not ignored, but the ones not getting the results they sought after complaining internally).

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9 users have voted.

"The gatekeepers must change."
Prince

Raggedy Ann's picture

@Deja

Speak our truth!!

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6 users have voted.

"If there is not justice for the people, let there be no peace for the government." Emiliano Zapata

@Raggedy Ann

the truth does not belong to you.

I point this out so that interested people can see what is happening.

in your view, there are two teams here.

thx. did you miss the fact that I volunteered for sissy farenthold in 1972.
that was before I got "hostile" to women.

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0 users have voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Deja That assumes that everyone is operating in an honorable and above-board manner.

This doesn't look anything like the Boston Women's Health Collective or Take Back the Night to me. It doesn't look like people volunteering to walk women past the horrific protesters of the far right to get them into the health clinic. It doesn't even look like the #YesAllWomen campaign of a few years ago.

I don't see a grassroots, woman-driven justice movement. I see a media phenomenon. It looks like a coordinated media campaign, like we used to use in various kinds of electoral and issue-based campaigns. It looks highly produced.

That doesn't imply that most of the stories are false. Most of the stories are probably true. That doesn't matter. They can still be used as the raw materials for a highly produced media campaign designed to manipulate the public in various directions.

In this case, they seem to be doing with sexism and women what they spent the last eight years doing with race and Black people: creating a discursive situation in which some people are always right; creating a situation where questioning the idea that those people are always right condemns the questioner. Once the idea that some people are always right and nobody can question that becomes the norm, accusation, if it comes from those always-right people, is proof. Also, however those people define, or are said to define, any of the terms of the conversation, those definitions stand. In other words, if those always-right people choose to collapse distinctions between different kinds of sexual impropriety, including the distinction between consensual and non-consensual acts, that too will be considered automatically right.

It gets worse: people who aren't even members of the groups in question get involved. Over the last few years, there have been plenty of white people who have made political and social capital off of speaking on behalf of Black people or other POC, mostly by getting on the Internet, or in front of a camera, and talking about how horrible other white people are to POC. They can do this without ever having put any skin in the game for people of color at all. In fact, they can do it even when their own history contains some racist shit. It doesn't matter. They're on TV, or the Internet, delivering the right talking points; they say they hate racism; they condemn other white people for being racist; therefore they are on the right team.

We just watched Hillary Clinton get away with this for a year. But it's not just her.

Now it looks like they're doing the same thing with women. There will emerge, if there hasn't already, a cadre of men who go on TV talking about how awful it is for men to treat women this way.

The question isn't whether racism or sexism exists, whether they are important, whether they are horrible, or whether something should be done about them. All those things are self-evident. The question is, why are five multi-billion dollar corporations concerning themselves with rape or sexual harassment? Do we really think multi-billion dollar corporations give a shit whether a woman suffers sexual assault?

We need to separate the following two questions:

1)What is this media furor whirling around our ears, and what do we think about it?

2)How should we (the 99%)relate to one another across gender lines? How should we deal with the issues of sexual harassment and rape? How should we deal with other kinds of sexual impropriety? What do we think justice is? What do we think would work?

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12 users have voted.

The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

Wink's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
sentiments, much better conveyed. After about the third or 4th revelation, in such a short period of time, my smell meter went off. "This is just more media manipulation, media horse$h!t." Someone asked, "but, Wink, how did they make all this happen simultaneously?" They didn't need to. Once it got rolling they were going to make sure it keeps on rolling. Is what they do. Well done, CSTMS. And well said.

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5 users have voted.

the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-1.9) All about building progressive media.

Deja's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
You keep saying this, in every single essay about it. And you go to great lengths to minimize the severity of what's coming to light. On and on, actually.

Do, please explain how, as a woman, you would like us to dismiss the behavior we've seen exhibited by both creepy and/or whiny men right here on c99, and take up some unknown fight. Unknown because media blah blah blah.

I can grasp your initial point, but you gotta give me more reason and movement to follow, than 'because msm'. Then, too, the creepers here need to be taken to task - by women like you as well. The rest of us are tired, and need backup.

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9 users have voted.

"The gatekeepers must change."
Prince

@Deja

take up some unknown fight

the harrassment issue is being used by our enemies.

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5 users have voted.

@Deja

Actually, I believe she's trying to explain that this is being exposed and publicized, in many cases, only to be used against us in dividing and distracting us - not that the sexual abuses and discrimination aren't real and not that this doesn't need to be addressed, as it should have been long since had it not long been considered acceptable by the PTB that those in a power position abuse those perceived as being vulnerable.

But TPTB and their lackeys never miss a chance at PR manipulation and there's plenty of life-threatening stuff being done right now that they'd like us distracted from in attacking each other on a neatly split gender-based issue, while believing that at least something finally is being recognized as a serious issue and addressed 'to clean some of the abusers out of The Swamp'.

Some of the commentary has also made me feel distinctly uncomfortable but believe such to be honest attempts to try to convey the way someone feels/believes some others to feel without at any point advocating that any such fantasized behaviour be enacted.

I firmly believe that if we care about reality/the perspectives of other people, we cannot reject information offered as such which may expand our understanding because it makes us uncomfortable or don't want to hear it/believe that it's even potentially true, or shoot the messenger because we don't like what s/he says.

If that's the way some men feel in their fantasies, (as I've heard elsewhere, especially in older-gen men) and keep it in their heads, we need the insight while accepting the fact that others do have different desires than we might. As long as they never inflict these fantasies on an unwilling participant, what some may think and desire deep down inside is actually none of anyone else's business.

We do not demand that people should be arrested for having a passing thought about, for example, stealing something when they'd never actually do it, and I doubt that most of these rape fantasies actually involve hurting the woman and forcing themselves upon a horrified, unbelieving/terrified, grossed-out person who will ever after regard them with loathing and entertain fantasies about them being tied to a chair while they heft that baseball bat (at least until the victims gross themselves out with the thought of the actual results, also making them no better than their attacker in physically, mentally and emotionally harming someone with no chance of self-defence).

We have to worry about being 'disappeared' for thought-crimes ourselves, as the censorship agenda advances over the internet and as citizen/human rights pile up in TPTB's wastebasket along with us 'disposables', these used simply to dispose of all remaining dissident voices, and I'd view this as one of the threats we most need to address or at least exert some energy and focus on. While we still can, at any rate.

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11 users have voted.

Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Ellen North Thanks, Ellen; not sure I'm expressing this well. You're helping explain it better...

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5 users have voted.

The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

@Deja in your lust to punish.

Does that count toward taking someone to task?

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1 user has voted.

dfarrah

Deja's picture

@dfarrah in your past slut shaming and rape apologist comments.

Tori Amos sang about it a while back:

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2 users have voted.

"The gatekeepers must change."
Prince

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

That doesn't imply that most of the stories are false. Most of the stories are probably true. That doesn't matter. They can still be used as the raw materials for a highly produced media campaign designed to manipulate the public in various directions.

we are in a lot of trouble with this issue, if what is happening at c99 is a guide.
smart people here saying "fuck you" back and forth.

lists of names offensive people being kept,etc. sides chosen.
end of community. worked pretty quick.

I'm with the truth, as much as I can be.
no gender bias there.

"The truth is not in contradiction with itself."

thx for sticking your neck out on this one.
(remember you had some bad personal experiences yourself.)

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6 users have voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@irishking You're welcome, but I'm doing it as much for myself as anybody else. It feels unbearably grimy to watch the establishment use actual rape stories in a constructed media campaign. It's like somebody's found a way to grind up my flesh and use it for gunpowder.

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7 users have voted.

The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

we should go over this thread to see what (& who) happened.
this is a mess.

I don't think we can sweep it under the rug.

my first issue is the loss of civility.
then unwillingness to reason.
insults,attributed motives,etc.

by the end of the thread, I was a "bad guy".
fair or not. I am not taking down anything, let people see what happened.

some came in with anger and insults.
that is not the same as being sad & clueless.
thx.

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3 users have voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@irishking Let me see what I can do to repair this. I have friends on both sides of this argument. I also have people on both sides of the argument who have objected to my comments, probably because I object to how the argument itself is constituted and conducted.

I don't know if I can do much of anything, because people are liable to get mad at criticism, whether explicit or implicit. I'm wracking my brain to think of a way to snap people out of this cycle without criticizing them. So far, the only way I've come up with is to tell my story--which is a pretty unpalatable option, especially since only slivers of the gruesome part are accessible to me in memory, which means that telling my story might not even work. What I mean to say is, my story would not ever stand up in court, which is why I've never taken it there nor attempted reprisal. Dissociative amnesia is a bitch (not that I would enjoy remembering).

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5 users have voted.

The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

not your job to straighten people out.

you might go over to Jtc essay where I have my day in court.

"Cuando concluya no quiero tener que reprocharme a mi mismo haber dejado principio por defender,verdad sin decir, ni crimen sin denunciar."

well,I did my best. there was only one Fidel. (for better or worse.)
respecto,companera.

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2 users have voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@irishking I helped to build this place. It was initially my idea. IMO, it is now in serious danger of failing.

up
5 users have voted.

The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

I said what I think in reply to Jtc below his essay.

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1 user has voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@irishking Thanks, irish. Smile

up
2 users have voted.

The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

That would be that.

Along with "I don't appreciate" your activities.
Addressing me as "bud" and "partner"

Adds up to "get lost" quick.
Is it too much to say I have been cast out by an angry god?

well,yes. lol
but it is impossible for me to stay now.
that was the idea,imo.

suerte y mil gracias a usted, senora.

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2 users have voted.

@irishking
your donation was refunded:

please spend the $20 I sent yesterday. not your fault!

I don't know what your intention was with that remark but it came off wrong to me. And if I wanted you to "get lost" quick I'd let you know straight out, I don't play games.

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4 users have voted.

@JtC

let's take a look. see if we can find out what happened.
context clues.


so do you ?

@Raggedy Ann @Raggedy Ann

do you know that all the people accused are guilty?
and of what?

that is not what you said.
you said- "many hung their heads".

correct. but not the same as "all".
I hope I have made clear the nature of my objection to your comment.
If you do know this , tell me how and I'd be glad to look.

also I notice that you choose to argue over the use "we don't know", but nothing to the important question of how quickly we got to "STFU" around here. Telling people they are "part of the solution or part of the problem." (lol)

to Jtc- I thought we were above this stuff.
that is why you will lose readers. it's not the topic.
it's the abusive group behavior we loathed at TOP set loose by this topic.

please spend the $20 I sent yesterday. not your fault!

pogo was a genius.

edit.

p.s. fwiw,the most important people in the world to me: wife, daughter,sister

Please check yourself

@irishking
When I began reading your comment, I was prepared to ask you if you had seen JtC's essay today about what's going on in this thread, but it appears that you have seen it, and are doubling down.

to Jtc- I thought we were above this stuff.
that is why you will lose readers. it's not the topic.
it's the abusive group stupidity we loathed at TOP set loose by this topic.

please spend the $20 I sent yesterday. not your fault!

Yes, abusive group stupidity, I can agree with that. But seriously, dafuq? Your hostility is showing, and I'm at a loss as to why you'd mention $20.

I thought the $20 was funny.

@Deja @Deja

though I did send in yesterday.
I am not angry, but this business is discouraging to me.

as to "comment" to Jtc.
it does seem that things went south very quickly.

I wasn't real clear. in the comment I saw Jtc directed himself to wink (and zoebear) saying their squabbling was costing readers and should stop. enough already. was there an essay? I don't find one.

my point to Jtc is that the problem is not just those two. not any longer.
all you have to do is read the thread.

in my view this display shows what our enemies have stumbled upon.

CSTMS and Ellen Norrth (women!) made some strong point. In my opinion the activity on the thread confirms the worst fears expressed.

dog help us.
uughh.

Hmmm. looks like it was -

"This is not what I signed up for. But I don't blame JtC or ask for my money back."

I thought it was funny.
guess not.

as for the rest.

in words of the great Lester Young- "I feel a draft."

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2 users have voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@irishking @irishking I wish you would stay. JtC is telling the truth when he says, if he wants to see your back, he'll let you know right quick. Since he hasn't, he doesn't. Please don't leave on account of what may, in a few months, come to seem like a fairly minor conflict.

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2 users have voted.

The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal @Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

the meaning of "JtC does not want to see your back" might be quite elastic.

of course that is just one - half of it.

though I did not say so earlier, I don't want to stay around..

one of my favorites.
houston (1958)

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1 user has voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@irishking Well, I'm sorry to see you go.

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2 users have voted.

The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@irishking If you ever want to chat, PM me and I'll exchange contact info with you (I don't generally do that in spaces quite so public as the open internet).

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3 users have voted.

The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal @Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

YESSSSSSSSS!!!!!! When we look at what an attempt at a rational discussion of this situation has done within this very community, we see the desired, divisive result.

Many of us here - predominately women - have been raped/undergone attempted rape/been threatened with rape/been disgustingly and invasively pawed/handled/had slimeball men attempt to treat us as a disposable sexual commodity - any or all of the above - quite apart from dealing with odd and limiting/dismissive attitudes inculcated in society affecting other areas of our lives.

These stand out because the scars on our psyches remain painful, and we tend (not surprisingly) to react on an emotional level when these are triggered, often with fear and anger, the emotions so long used on the 'right wing' corporate media in propaganda campaigns to shut down reason by triggering the amagdala so that fear-of-other can be used against the population to weaken the whole by setting them all against 'the other'.

The first thing to remember always, in fighting such manipulation, is that we are all people, we are all individuals. If some men or some people of whatever colour/nationality have harmed us, or we have been taught to fear that they might, simply based in recognizable differences, this does not mean that all within that category are to be regarded as a threat/enemy.

People are not categories as in corporate marketing ploys, whether selling political myths/parties/politicians during elections, prejudices or other, manufactured propaganda - or the sort of products one would expect marketing to be aimed at.

Psychopaths do not see others as real, merely objects which can be useful or useless; we cannot allow them to continue to pathologize us into seeing others only as threats or non-threats, competition or not-competition, wealthy and 'worthy' or poor and 'deadbeats' - as categories, rather than as fellow-humans.

If we are to be afraid of being looked at or spoken to and/or looking at or speaking freely - albeit in a reasonable and respectful manner - among ourselves, how are we to organize that feeling of community essential to withstanding The Psychopaths That Be ruining the world?

Why are we concerned about men looking at attractive women from a safe distance and entertaining sexual fantasies they'd never attempt to inflict on anyone when The Psychopaths That Be are inflicting fascism and destruction on us and the life-support system on which we all depend?

Our outrage and discussion is again being redirected back at ourselves, as is typical, using sex, the PTB's default all-purpose control position/distraction social-engineering technique, while democracy and the world perishes for-profit. And we're running out of time to salvage anything from the wreckage...

Edited, as I somehow wrote/auto-corrected 'divisive' as 'decisive'.

Signed,

The Undisputed Typo Queen!

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13 users have voted.

Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

@Ellen North

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3 users have voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Ellen North @Ellen North @Ellen North Many of us here - predominately women - have been raped/undergone attempted rape/been threatened with rape/been disgustingly and invasively pawed/handled/had slimeball men attempt to treat us as a disposable sexual commodity - any or all of the above - quite apart from dealing with odd and limiting/dismissive attitudes inculcated in society affecting other areas of our lives.

These stand out because the scars on our psyches remain painful, and we tend (not surprisingly) to react on an emotional level when these are triggered, often with fear and anger, the emotions so long used on the 'right wing' corporate media in propaganda campaigns to shut down reason by triggering the amagdala so that fear-of-other can be used against the population to weaken the whole by setting them all against 'the other'.

I quoted you at length because this is precisely what's happening. I don't see much difference between the stories, images, words that are being deployed by the media now, and the stories, images, words, that were deployed after 9/11 to get the country behind war. The only difference is that the target population has changed. Now we're the target.

We were the people who chided the right wing for being so easily manipulated by their emotions. The truth is that the stimuli being used--attack on the nation, xenophobia, cultural machismo--just didn't work on us, because our minds don't work that way. Our beliefs don't lead us to fearing people because they are foreign, nor because they have different religions or languages than us, whether they are foreign or not. We're not likely to think they're automatically to blame--we will want to investigate, find evidence, prove which people hurt us, before proceeding.

Racists and sexists, however, are to us as terrorists, and foreigners generally, are to the right wing. These are the right stimuli to use on us. So now we're the ones who are easily manipulated.

I suppose people will say that the harm done to women and POC is real--and where was the harm done to right-wing people after 9/11? But given the right wing's beliefs, 9/11 itself felt like real and terrifying harm, even for those people who didn't have relatives or friends actually killed by it. They took it like a body blow, and given their beliefs, that's not surprising. It put them into exactly the right condition to be molded like putty.

I said that the only difference was the target population, but that's actually not true. During 9/11, one side was rational and the other was not. In this case, not all people arguing against the #MeToo movement are keeping their heads. Some of them are also reacting emotionally, as if to threat, because they believe they are being made into the enemy. That makes everything worse. But then, the object here is not to make us hate foreigners and support an invasion; the object is to make us hate and fear each other as much as possible.

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3 users have voted.

The issue is patriotism. You've got to get back to your planet and stop the Commies. All it takes is a few good men.
--Q

Keep pushing the door open. Light the corners till the melt.
--Magiamma

Morire de cara sol.
--Jose Marti

@Raggedy Ann
to your world. shall we race one another to the bottom of the social equity ladder?

and i have even less interest in being treated as if I'm unaware of the conditions of that world, only because i'm protesting the efforts of some people to push me down into it in a misguided attempt to elevate themselves out of it.

so yes, i'm upset that i'm expected to act like a shamed criminal pervert any time i'm anywhere near any woman i don't already know, including walking through a crowd down a sidewalk in broad daylight. and i've every good goddamned reason to be upset about it, without getting snotty condescending bullshit from someone like TB mare mocking me about my poor hurt fee fees. fuck that.

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10 users have voted.

Sigh

Raggedy Ann's picture

@UntimelyRippd
my entire comment and/or you just don't give a fuck (your words) about anything but your feelings. I tried to apologize and express some sanity, to ears filled with cotton. I'm used to typical dismissals such as yours from men with hurt feelings such as yourself. I get you.

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7 users have voted.

"If there is not justice for the people, let there be no peace for the government." Emiliano Zapata

@Raggedy Ann I was out with my husband this evening and am only just catching up. Sorry you got hit with this, though I know you have the fortitude to withstand a hurricane and don’t need my support. Still, you have it. Hopefully this chapter is closed. Peace.

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6 users have voted.
Raggedy Ann's picture

@TB mare

no worries. I've been dealing with many self-centered people my whole life - some of which are in my own family. Some people cannot look beyond themselves; they are alone in the world. I recognize this behavior because I exhibit it myself sometimes. We all do.

This issue makes men uncomfortable. I get it. However, whether they want to be in our world or not, we've been living in this uncomfortable state our whole lives.

WELCOME TO OUR WORLD!!!

I know you understand, TB. Thanks for your support.

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7 users have voted.

"If there is not justice for the people, let there be no peace for the government." Emiliano Zapata

@Raggedy Ann n/t

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5 users have voted.

@Raggedy Ann
And I answered the question you posed at the top of it.

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5 users have voted.

Sigh

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