Something Old, Something New, Something Borrowed, Something Blue--Syria edition

WARNING: This OT is not as cheerful as Something Old usually is. The subject is war. Next week the thread will be back to its usual self. Just letting folks know so they don't get blindsided (I hate getting blindsided myself, ever since a movie that purported to be a cheerful romance between two elderly people ended up being a wrenching narrative about Alzheimer's!)

I admit that I first conceived of Something Old, Something New as a way to get myself away from writing long-winded, overly complicated essays that took too much time and wearied my readers (sadly, the fault is more in ourselves, dear Brutus, than in our formats, and Something Old, Something New started getting longer and longer).

I realized recently that I've been doing something else with this OT: celebrating human civilization and the natural world. That's on my mind this week because, as Ursula Le Guin once said, the opposite of civilization is not primitivism (whatever that may be); the opposite of civilization is war. This is a week to remember that.

At its best, war happens when the forces of civilization have broken down and people must resort to brute force to prevent brutes from continuing to molest them. It's like getting a terrible fever that kills the disease while also threatening to kill its victim. This is what we are always told, nowadays, is the motive for war.

Something like this:

or this:

This is what we are now told the Civil War was--an effort to rid the world of the atrocity of slavery in the United States (if it had actually been such an effort, the Emancipation Proclamation would surely have happened no later than April 12, 1861. I'm just saying.) A much more likely candidate for that sort of war is what the Haitians did in the 1790s (unlike Lincoln, the Haitian revolutionaries wasted no time before declaring that slaves were free).

The problem is that sometimes atrocities shouldn't be endured, and peaceful means are unlikely to effect change. It's humanity's most enduring problem, and the one which will probably end us: what do you do about the bullies?

It's difficult to imagine oneself telling the Haitian slaves that they shouldn't rise up in revolution because war is wrong. Similarly difficult to imagine telling the Nicaraguans that they should continue to tolerate Somoza after he pocketed earthquake relief money in a decimated Managua. While there are people, like Gandhi, who believe that a pacifist response to Hitler would have been preferable to World War II, most agree that World War II should have been fought.

Sometimes people just can't (and shouldn't) take it anymore.
That's true. But that is a truth which any ethical person would use with extreme care. In an ethical, rational mind, the claim that the situation is now unendurable and all peaceful solutions have failed would call forth extremely careful analysis. Everything would slow down. Many different factions and forces with different interests and agendas would be called upon to speak about the situation. Careful and exhaustive amassing of specific data would occur. And if the war in question involved more than one country--if it wasn't a civil war--all interpretations of the data would be presented (perhaps to the UN, in this idealistic vision of the world as it might be) and weighed both by experts and in the court of public opinion, before anyone started sending troops anywhere.

In the world as it is, the truth that sometimes people are horrifically abused has been exploited to the point that one would think there are no unjustified wars. Every situation is unendurable. Peaceful solutions are always exhausted before we even ask, so nobody bothers asking. Nowadays, we are always told that the motive for war is an unendurable tyrant committing atrocities and we (whether those actually affected or concerned lookers-on) can no longer stand idle. Horrifically, those who profit off war attempt to look moral while selling their wares. It's like watching a three-legged dog try to dance Swan Lake.

It's not that this form of justification was invented after World War II. It's been going on a long time. So today, my Something Old is this form of propaganda. It is American pro-war propaganda from World War I:

Something/Someone Old
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'Destroy_this_mad_brute'_WWI_propaganda_poster_(US_version).jpg

But World War II has become the template, quite literally, for every war we fight. I don't mean that in a military sense, but in a narrative sense. It is quite literally cut-and paste.

Insert name here has committed the terrible atrocity of insert event here on the bodies of insert innocent victims here

Saddam the new Hitler, Bush tells Europeans
By Anne Kornblut and Charles Sennott in Prague (Boston Globe)
November 22 2002

In a speech to students on the eve of a two-day NATO summit, Mr Bush compared the challenge of the Iraqi President to the Nazi invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1938, which led to World War II.

"Ignoring dangers or excusing aggression may temporarily avert conflict, but they don't bring true peace," he said.

Suggesting that terrorism was as dangerous as Hitler in the 1940s, Mr Bush told the teenagers: "We face perils we've never thought about, perils we've never seen before. They're just as dangerous as those perils that your fathers and mothers and grandfathers and grandmothers faced."

Interestingly, on that occasion, Putin was already dubious of PNAC foreign policy:

Mr Bush will visit Russia to soothe any concerns of the President, Vladimir Putin, who also has reservations about going to war in Iraq.

And shockingly, Bush's PNAC rhetoric was so extreme that even Brzezinksi had a problem with it:

Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carter's national security adviser, who is in Prague, said Mr Bush might want to temper his remarks on present threat levels.

"Terrorism is a very serious menace; nonetheless, as of now it is still not as grave a threat as a US-Soviet war would have been. We were talking about 180 million fatalities in a nuclear exchange."

For those who don't know him, Brzezinski is a terrible Cold War hawk who, for some reason, Jimmy Carter kept around. Like Kissinger, he continues to affect foreign policy. It's interesting that there are extremes to which he will not go.

Something New
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Of course, some people don't know how to tell a story, and flub it even when all they have to do is cut-and-paste:

WASHINGTON — The White House press secretary, Sean Spicer, set off an intense backlash on Tuesday when he suggested that President Bashar al-Assad of Syria was guilty of acts worse than Hitler and asserted that Hitler had not used chemical weapons, ignoring the use of gas chambers at concentration camps during the Holocaust. Mr. Spicer later apologized.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/11/us/politics/sean-spicer-hitler-gas-ho...

It's pretty awful not to remember that one feature of World War II was the use of gas chambers. But in the ensuing outrage, what got missed is the exact similarity of the overall narrative delivered by Spicer to the one delivered by George W. Bush in Prague. The sell is always the same.

Then again, I wouldn't expect the NY Times to report on anything like that, since they are, at this point, not even the publishers of this endlessly rehashed story, but, more like Waldenbooks or Barnes and Noble, a venue for purchasing it. The actual publishers are probably the Pentagon, the CIA, and possibly assorted think tanks. God only knows who the writers are. Or are there still propagandists creating new narrative justifications for war? I suppose someone has to come up with the specifics to insert.

Something Borrowed
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I found that the oldest discussion of a just war versus an unjust war is in the Mahabharata, an ancient Hindu epic, the most famous part of which is the Bhagavad Gita,

gita.jpg

gita2.jpg

but I wouldn't say we borrowed our debate about just war from the Hindus. Krishna spends the Bhagavad Gita explaining to Prince Arjuna why he should go to battle against his family and others he loves, but the justifications are highly personal and have to do with dharma, fate, and heroism as a form of service to God. At least that's what the various summaries I read said. I have not had time to read and analyze the Bhagavad Gita myself since I was a little girl flipping through my mother's books. As I recall, I liked the pictures, but the discussion was beyond me. I should probably read it again as an adult (I still have my mother's copy), but likely won't. In any case, the pre-Christian Romans seem far closer to our debate on the subject. Cicero is particularly useful:

marcus_tullius_cicero_statue.jpg

“Something else that must very much be preserved in public affairs is the justice of warfare. There are two types of conflict: the one proceeds by debate, the other by force. Since the former is the proper concern of a man, but the latter of beasts, one should only resort to the latter if one may not employ the former. Wars, then, ought to be undertaken for this purpose, that we may live in peace, without injustice; and once victory has been secured, those who were not cruel or savage in warfare should be spared.” Marcus Tullius Cicero, On Duties I. 34-35. eds. and trans. M.T. Griffin and E.M. Atkins (Cambridge 1991), pp. 14-15.


The only excuse, therefore, for going to war is that we may live in peace unharmed; and when the victory is won, we should spare those who have not been blood-thirsty and barbarous in their warfare. For instance, our forefathers actually admitted to full rights of citizenship the Tusculans, Aequians, Volscians, Sabines, and Hernicians, but they razed Carthage and Numantia to the ground. I wish they had not destroyed Corinth; but I believe they had some special reason for what they did — its convenient situation, probably — and feared that its very location might some day furnish a temptation to renew the war. In my opinion, at least, we should always strive to secure a peace that shall not admit of guile. And if my advice had been heeded on this point, we should still have at least some sort of constitutional government, if not the best in the world, whereas, as it is, we have none at all.

Something Blue
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Speaking of which, the institution of a police state appears to precede war as the collapse of an immune system precedes catastrophic infection.

police1.jpg

police2.jpg

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Sorry for the grim OT today, but occasionally, rather than merely celebrating civilization, I feel the need to condemn those who destroy it.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

How are you all today?

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

Lookout's picture

Are all wars based on lies? As I look back it seems every foreign war we've ever fought was promoted by lies...starting with "Remember the Maine" (which wasn't done by the Spanish).

There is a 2015 version of the comic book "addicted to war", but you can read the 2004 version free online here:
http://www.addictedtowar.com/atw1a.html

This little book is a great way to educate friends, kids, and doubters.

Speaking truth to power at least provides a vent. All the best....
I need to relearn this one...

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Lookout @Lookout Well, like I said, I don't think the Haitian revolution was based on lies. Or the Nicaraguan revolution, or the Cuban revolution. I even think the progenitors of the American revolution had a few accurate points to be made, and a few gripes with which I'm still in sympathy, though certainly Jefferson included some that were bogus in the extreme, and hypocrisy was rife (which didn't stop them from having some legitimate beef with Britain). I guess it depends on what you mean by "based on lies." If you mean "was there anybody in favor of war lying" then I guess the answer would have to be yes. There's usually somebody lying in any situation. But if you mean "was the stated reason for war a lie itself or based on other lies," I'd say, not always.

However, even a war based on truth can be exploited for gain.

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

Lookout's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

Are all US wars based on lies? I think so. Including WWII where those German tanks and trucks had Ford engines and whose military was funded by US based global corporations. Ever wondered how Germany could rebuild such a strong military after WWI when they were broke and inflation rampant?

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Lookout I agree with you about Nazi sympathizers, esp. industrialists, in the United States. There were a lot of them. But the way Hitler rebuilt his economy after it was devastated by WWI was to create and issue his own currency. Ellen Brown is excellent on the subject; her book Web of Debt is one of the few I've read in recent years that has actually changed my mind about something--she substantially altered my view of history.

This is NOT to say that I am in sympathy with Hitler; simply that he happened to have a good idea about how to achieve independence from financiers and build a strong national economy. He did so well enough that he managed to wage a massive war--one of the most expensive activities around--after his national economy had been crushed.

This is also one of the reasons that America did not suffer worse economic effects after our own Civil War. Lincoln issued greenbacks to pay for the war.

Ellen Brown is a hell of a writer. One of the must-reads I recommend to everybody.

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Lookout But yes, I'd say most U.S. wars are based on lies. I don't have a problem with the revolution or the War of 1812. I am not quite as cynical as you about WWII, though I'm certainly not starry-eyed.

But the Mexican War? The wars of colonization? The Spanish-American war? Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, the Iraq War, and the hundreds of not-official wars? Yes, they are all putrid sores on the hide of this country, spurting toxic lies.

I'm pretty unhappy about WWI, too. Wilson was a rotten piece of shit. The Espionage Act, the gift that keeps on giving.

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Lookout Phil Ochs, a great truthteller.

Love me, I'm a liberal.

Modern right-wingers don't understand what he meant by that.

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

and definitely needed now.
Thank you.

Stop These Fucking Wars

peace

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Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .

Explain Bldg #7. . .

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Tall Bald and Ugly Thank you, TBU!

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

The Aspie Corner's picture

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Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@The Aspie Corner Another shyster trying to repair his reputation by disliking Trump, which is apparently all it takes to be an angel in this benighted age.

And the speaker here is completely correct: the Republicans' one virtue is that they have been unfailingly honest (up till Trump) about their domestic policies. They've always said they want to screw the poor, they've always advocated for greater thrift, I mean lower wages, for workers, they've always said they are the party of wealth, they've been ranting about lower taxes and the welfare state as long as I've been alive, I can just barely remember when it was possible to be a Republican and be an environmentalist, or anti-war, but they have been unregenerate warmongers and environmental devastators since I've come of age (30 years ago now).

Up until Trump said he wanted to be an anti-globalist and bring jobs back to America, the Republicans have been completely honest about their economic and environmental policies. They are occasionally more cagey about civil liberties, but anyone who watched the Bush administration for more than two minutes should have understood what their real position was on that--they sure didn't work that hard to hide it. They are the party that legalized torture and assassination, and gave the police the right to bust your door down.

Anyone who says "Oh, I didn't mean *that*!" after happily remaining Republican, or an independent who gives large campaign donations to Republicans, which amounts to the same thing, through two Bush administrations is a fucking liar.

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

I always appreciate your OTs in celebration of civilization and their focus on art, music, books, movies, travel, blueberries, gardening, trees, (even....god-forbid....TV shows :-)). I appreciate everyones OT's here about those subjects which is the best of civilization. There is almost nothing more that I would like to talk about.

Unfortunately we have to look at the horrors all around, some of which are perpetuated by us, even though indirectly and unwillingly. If we look, we will see our civilization slipping away. Although to me it feels as if it were sliding away, fast, furiously, like an avalanche.
Right now I grasp at the concept of civilization and the shreds of it that are within my reach, but I fear the 'uncivilization' is gaining ground.

Thanks for your OT and for Cicero, who said the only reason to go to war was to "live in peace, without injustice". That would be a civilization to be proud of.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@randtntx I like what he said about constitutional government, too. Guess some things never change, huh?

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

I wore the NO BLOOD FOR OIL button to the market, and grouched at the young people about bombing the middle east since forever. Scoldin' oldy. And another thing! Why did it take Sonoma thirty years to ban plastic grocery bags?! (clerk was filling my twenty years old Trader Joes cloth sack, purchased when it opened, and now TJ's is also part of Santa Rosa's "Recovery for the Worthy".)
You know that local rag I always bitch about? It won a Pulitzer, so... that's it I'm out. (brain wave)

This disaster "recovery" looks a lot like the last economic "recovery", giant sucking sounds, piles of cash lobbyists everywhere, cheap crap replacing good stock, the endless rape of the young.

even a war based on truth can will be exploited for gain.

Fixed it for ya. Heh. For Ds, their brand is still "crisis", so:

even a disaster will be exploited for gain

"That's the system."
leakbutt_td.jpg
Leek butt touch down signal. lol
Sorry about the yellow lighting. Wow the butts are sprouting fast now, that one sprouted horns overnight. Huh.

Here is the meta-leaking full view, so you can see at the top the buzzing box that sits on the utility pole outside. Makes me yearn for a faraday cage, or at least a tin foil hat.
buzzlightbox.jpg
The bluish house is where the Mexicans used to live, they were evicted and it has been empty since, absentee weekend re-modelers own it now. There are two trailers in the lot next door, one is ginormous. They run the generator all night long, thanks goodness it's a quiet one. I can still hear it, and that is why the goddess made foam earplugs I guess. Thanks for the petroleum by-product. yin yang

Ha ha! Every one needs a helping hand, mine is made of cardboard. Instead of calling 911 for a 5150, I just wave that now.

PEACE

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@eyo even a war based on truth can will be exploited for gain.

Thanks, eyo. That's about right.

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

Someone has to beat the drum against wars and the lies used to start them. Your OT does that beautifully.

Blue is indeed depressing. Here's more to add to the inhumanity of militarized cops in lieu of universal health care and free college.

Michigan town’s feud over military gear gets ugly
One horse town gets millions in military gear and gives it to the locals for boy toys. So glad the Commander in Chief is draining that swamp.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@dkmich Thanks, dk. Good to "see" you, by the way.

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

Just in case anyone was wondering.
https://www.wunderground.com/cat6/why-oklahoma-burning

Oklahoma’s third megafire in three years—the Rhea Fire, which has torched some 242,000 acres in less than a week—may grow even worse on Tuesday, as horrific fire weather conditions sweep in from New Mexico and west Texas. Relative humidity may drop as low as 3% in northwest OK, with temperatures expected to be well above 90°F and winds predicted to gust above 40 mph.

The NOAA/NWS Storm Prediction Center has placed a huge swath of New Mexico, Colorado, Kansas, Texas, and Oklahoma under an “extremely critical” fire weather threat for Tuesday. It’s the most dire rating of fire threat used by SPC, and the second extremely-critical day in the past week, following Friday, April 13. “Given dry fuels and ongoing drought, the stage will be set for fast-moving fires exhibiting extreme behavior,” warned SPC in the outlook issued at 1 am CDT Tuesday.

The storm system driving this threat, now barreling toward the Plains, won’t produce anywhere as much heavy precipitation as the behemoth that caused flash flooding along the East Coast and some of the heaviest snows on record in the Upper Midwest. Tuesday’s storm could be every bit as dangerous a fire-stoker, though. Winds ahead of the surface cold front gusted to 55 mph in Salt Lake City, Utah, pushing visibility down to 6 miles in blowing dust. (Hours later, it was snowing.)

Disconnected facts.
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Oil-Markets-The-Calm-Before-The-Storm.html

- U.S. oil production is expected to rise by another 125,000 bpd in May, compared to a month earlier.

- The gains will, unsurprisingly, come from the Permian basin, which is expected to add 73,000 bpd.

- Interestingly, the number of drilled but uncompleted wells (DUCs) continues to rise, an indication that supply chain bottlenecks are causing some delays.

Permian basin is West Texas. Just go down the list over there, boy was I wrong about the KSA IPO.

Saudi Aramco posts $33.8 billion in net income in 1H2017. Saudi Aramco earned $33.8 billion in the first six months of 2017, making it the most profitable company on the planet. The numbers are a closely held secret but Bloomberg News reported the details, offering the clearest picture yet on the inside workings of the famed oil company. Crucially, the first half of 2017 was a period of time in which oil prices were significantly lower than they are today. Also, Aramco appears to be virtually debt-free and has production costs at a small fraction of the broader industry.

so fucked

China’s shale gas to double within three years. China’s shale gas output could reach 17 billion cubic meters by 2020, double production levels from 2017, according to Wood Mackenzie. Much of the gains will come from the Southwest. Still, despite the gains, LNG imports are expected to continue to rise rapidly – imports could jump by another 25 percent this year after hitting record highs last year.

over there, over here, everywhere

Mexican presidential frontrunner won’t roll back energy reforms. An advisor to the frontrunner to become Mexico’s next president said that the oil and gas industry shouldn’t be worried about the next administration rolling back the privatization that opened up Mexico’s energy sector to international investment after seven decades of state-run monopoly.

Canada’s oil industry returns to profit. Canada’s oil industry could post a small profit this year after three consecutive years of losses. The industry posted $32 billion in losses over the past three years, but are on track to collective take in a small $1.4 billion.

I received a ballot notice from the S.o.S. yesterday, encouraging me to return the ballot early. NOPE I will return the ballot at the very last minute, no way am I pre-loading their projections database so they can mine it to death. They can steal another election, but I am not going to make it profitable or easy for anyone. I hope.

drill baby drill

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@eyo Horrific.

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

ggersh's picture

http://www.larsschall.com/2018/04/18/colin-powell-still-cant-come-clean/

It’s little known, but the Taliban regime in Kabul had offered bin Laden’s extradition immediately after 9/11 – on the condition that the U.S. would present clear evidence of his guilt. The Bush administration categorically rejected this request. (6) U.S. General Richard Myers, then-chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, later admitted: “(T)he goal has never been to get bin Laden.” (7)

That shouldn’t come as a surprise, insofar a “lack of solid information” existed to link Mr. bin Laden to the 9/11 attacks, as Seymour Hersh wrote at the beginning of October 2001. (8) This was later confirmed by the FBI: the U.S. federal police has a list with suspects of high priority, the so-called Most Wanted List. It featured for a long time Osama bin Laden for the U.S. Embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya from 1998. The 9/11 attacks were not mentioned. When asked in 2006, why the 9/11 attacks were not listed, Rex Tomb, then-Chief of Investigative Publicity of the FBI, replied: “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.” (9)

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trump amerika's last president

The CIA website has a kids section with games where children can “solve puzzles, crack codes, and discover clues like a real CIA officer”.

This is like ISIS starting an ice cream truck business.

Caitlin

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@ggersh Wow. I thought he had claimed the act.

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

NAFTA

Yet, only a few weeks ago, the U.S. Trade Representative was pushing for an “agreement in principle” to be announced at last weekend’s summit, and even that more modest goal proved elusive.
...Even if the NAFTA talks concluded this week, there would be nothing like the time for congressional deliberation envisaged in the TPA legislation. Despite the public optimism about the talks, the practical deadline for concluding negotiations and passing a new NAFTA under this Congress seems already to have come and gone.

TPP

President Donald Trump has renewed his attack on a huge Pacific trade pact just days after raising the possibility of the United States rejoining it.

Trump wrote on Twitter late Tuesday that he thought the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) didn't represent a good deal for the world's biggest economy.

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enhydra lutris's picture

a very interesting point about the US civil war. Of course, if the true motive wa the elimination of slaveery, one must wonder why the South started it.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

@enhydra lutris Think the south started it for financial reasons. Didn't want to pay beholdin' to the yanks in DC, IIRC. Cheers

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May we be united and strong -- laurel

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@enhydra lutris hah! good point. no one ever mentions that.

If the North were so worked up about slavery, wouldn't THEY have started it?

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

link

Gazillionaire investor and progressive-minded mega-donor Tom Steyer has endorsed Democratic California Sen. Dianne Feinstein’s primary challenger, Kevin de León, the Los Angeles Times reports.
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Would have us believe that we are in for a nuclear holocaust, so some reaction is called for. Fear mongers all. Legislature, both fed and states, DHS and media hype destruction as the 'united way' to resolve resistance. Who gave them the earth to run anyway?

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May we be united and strong -- laurel

Mark from Queens's picture

Bonhoeffer always challenge me.

Each sought to reconcile what they thought were the right thing to do, in the face of what they believed to be atrocities that went against their fundamental and fierce religious beliefs. I'm not religious. But I am fascinated by those who ultimately conclude that something must be done, in the name of righteousness toward others who are being victimized, and act on it - for the sake of the truly hunted and persecuted (not the faux Fox News Christian who believes in the War on Xmas). That said, I loathe any and all religious extremists who rail against infidels and who seek to conquer through missionary work.

Both decided they needed to kill off the parasites (for the former slaveholders, the latter Hitler) they believed were diametrically forcing unnatural ends to races. Noble men who gave their lives.

I consider myself a pacifist when it comes to war. But I do believe in recourse against forces that pillage, terrorize and kill wantonly for monetary profit. It's a daily struggle.

Hope you're well, CStMS.

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"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:

THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC"

- Kurt Vonnegut

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Mark from Queens It is hard, isn't it?

Hope you and the kids are well!

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

enhydra lutris's picture

phrase that is never called out for the bullshit it is

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@enhydra lutris Oh, hell. I went to town on that during the first "enemy non-combatant" days, all the way up through the disgusting 2011 amendment to the defense spending bill.

It's obnoxious as hell; just means that they can declare anybody (domestic or foreign) an enemy that they want to, for any reason or none.

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

I can't do it, it makes me LOL and then curse, because I always end up saying "soldier" before I'm done. Always.

I was just thinking about smiley7, who went for some kind of operation and I hope is back on the healing path now. I think it was a shoulder part, but I could be wrong. Parts are parts.

Happy healing, that is my hope for smiley7, and all.

peace & love

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@eyo We all need some hopeful healthy healing at this point. Wink

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May we be united and strong -- laurel

travelerxxx's picture

@QMS

Giving away my age, but I wore the grooves outta that record back in the day! It opened up a channel in my brain for 12 string acoustic guitars. I crave the sound of them to this day and this song started it.

Had no idea there was a video of this. Thanks!

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@travelerxxx love the deep sounds. Used to 'boogie' to the Roof tops too! Am radio, didn't have record stores then.

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May we be united and strong -- laurel

orlbucfan's picture

@QMS Rec'd!! Smile

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"Trump is on trial for abuse of power--the Davos elites should be in the dock too...."
---Robert Reich