Outside the Asylum

taz6_0.jpg

I’ve decided to tackle the Great Jimmy Dore Controversy piecemeal, since when I try to analyze the entire thing, I feel like I’ve eaten tainted hamburger.

Yes, this is a bit after the fact, but, as always, what I'm most interested in is the use of media and politics to manipulate us and control the conversation. And this latest operation was both classic--in that it used two tactics we've seen many times before--and also a doozy, in that there wasn't a lot of "there" there, as Gertrude Stein once said in a different context. The objections to #ForcetheVote were almost, but not quite, as hollow at the center as the media-invented Dean Scream.

Here’s one tiny aspect of the Controversy: you can restate many of the objections to #ForcetheVote in the following way:

“How can you talk to Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez (or the Squad, or Nancy Pelosi, or the Democratic Party) like that?”

This objection comes in two different varieties. One smells like a middle-school gym locker. It’s meant to put you back into exactly that vulnerable state of mind you were in when you were thirteen years old and dressing out for phys. ed. (Unless you were rich or a jock, physical education in America when I went to school was little more than a platform for bullying. I’m sure I’m not alone in that experience). The point here is for you to identify Jimmy Dore as the bully, heaping abuse on poor Alexandra; you’re supposed to imagine, and then identify with, her hurt feelings. Look at them attacking that nice progressive. Dore and his friends are such meanies!

There is a slightly more sophisticated version of the Middle School Meanie objection, which claims that Dore is not so much the bully himself as he is an idiot who’s exposing AOC to bullies in Democratic leadership. However, one can’t say so outright, because that would be a criticism of Democratic leaders, and the whole point of this media shindig is to immunize Democratic politicians from criticism. (Remember that what Dore asked the Squad to do was to withhold their votes for Pelosi; his detractors can’t actually come out and say that “Mama Bear” is a bully herself). Instead, you talk about how Jimmy Dore saying things will adversely affect AOC’s career. The words coming out of Dore’s mouth somehow magically deny Ocasio-Cortez her political future, whether in specific, concrete terms (she won’t get that committee assignment!) or vague, monarchic terms (she was going to be Bernie’s heir, and now she won’t!)

By the way, what does being “Bernie’s heir” entail? The habit of traveling the country giving one good speech over and over again? A willingness to occasionally tell the truth about the super-rich? The tendency to get down on your knees and kiss the asses of the people who cheated you? I’m actually one of the people who (mostly) thinks well of Bernie; I think he was bullied and intimidated into getting down on his knees and kissing their loathsome asses, and it fills me with sadness rather than disdain. But my feelings do not change the fact that what happened to Bernie—twice—makes being his “heir” rather a dubious proposition. What can you inherit from a man who was robbed blind?

And anyway—isn’t all this talk of lines of succession a little dubious on the face of it, given that this is supposed to be a republic? I wouldn’t make much of this, except that it isn’t the first time. The entire idea of “It’s Her Turn” was monarchical. There are no “turns” in a republic. And now here we are talking about “Bernie’s heir.” But I guess we don’t have to worry about that now, because some words came out of Jimmy Dore’s mouth. Abracadabra. Alakazam! And presto, change-o, Ocasio-Cortez’ political “inheritance” disappears.

I wonder—would that work if I did it? Can I destroy Democratic politicians’ careers by saying things on YouTube? But I digress.

The second kind of objection to #ForcetheVote is basically condensed condescension. This tactic—you can’t really call it a talking point—is used frequently on the news and on political shows, when there is no rational objection to be made to a particular left-wing policy or change campaign. If you want to see how this works, have a look at the discussions of MMA (the monetary theory, not the sport). Or you could look at the corporate media responses to Anthony Weiner’s floor speech about healthcare for 9/11 first responders (yes, even an asshole like Weiner apparently has a moral limit somewhere, and leaving 9/11 first responders to be slowly poisoned from the inside out because they weren’t rich enough to buy the right kind of healthcare was it). Occupy got a lot of this kind of thing. Often this “objection” has no coherent, rational form, residing merely in the tone of voice and facial expressions of media and political figures. But if it were to be put into words, it would go something like this:

You little plebes don’t know how this works. You’re children compared to us. Go back to your choo-choo trains and your dollies.

This condensed condescension usually goes by the name of political pragmatism, though it almost always explains why you can’t do things rather than explaining how to reach a goal. This must be some definition of practicality I’ve never heard of: one where you can never accomplish anything concrete. “Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good, you silly sausage!” they chirp. It’s the Otto von Bismark objection. Let’s call it the Bismark Boogie, since it’s basically just the media dancing around making faces and has no discernible relation to logic.

Now I’m gonna go back to my choo-choo trains and my dollies. I hope you all have choo-choo trains and dollies of your own, and that they’re treating you well. And a big hat tip to Dore for outing the ringers.

Share
up
24 users have voted.

Comments

Cassiodorus's picture

-- anger -- but the subject matter has the usual flavor of nonsense. #ForceTheVote is bad, you see, because Jimmy Dore is an ass. If Jimmy Dore were cute and cuddly we'd be totally for it, but he's not, so we're not, they seem to be saying.

And American politics reverts once again with its usual obsessions with ethos (for Aristotle, the appeal to character) and pathos (the appeal to the emotions), and usual exclusion of logos, the appeal to reasoning.

up
17 users have voted.

"Freedom is always, and exclusively, freedom for the one who thinks differently.” -- Rosa Luxemburg

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Cassiodorus

And American politics reverts once again with its usual obsessions with ethos (for Aristotle, the appeal to character) and pathos (the appeal to the emotions), and usual exclusion of logos, the appeal to reasoning.

But I don't really understand "the spirit is right." How is the spirit right?

up
7 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cassiodorus's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal And they'll have to remember to replace said members of Congress two years from now, having blown last years' opportunity.

up
13 users have voted.

"Freedom is always, and exclusively, freedom for the one who thinks differently.” -- Rosa Luxemburg

@Cassiodorus having the wrong complexion and evil genitals, so therefore he has nothing of value to contribute. That’s seriously enough for a lot of people.

up
4 users have voted.
Raggedy Ann's picture

Turns out most politicians are cowards. Just want to keep their job. Term limits is the only answer. I might vote again if this happens. Probably not in my life-time, though.

Enjoy the day! Pleasantry

up
13 users have voted.

"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Raggedy Ann

Not governance, that's for sure.

up
13 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Raggedy Ann's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
is having power, getting tremendous speaking fees, never having to pay for anything ever again! What a job!!!

up
14 users have voted.

"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

up
8 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

QMS's picture

Thanks for the OT can't stop.
Happy to see you here on tease day.

What is showing now is righteous anger.
How much hurt must we absorb
before the McConnels, Pelosis and the like
go to the hell they are making?

It is time for a reckoning.

Channel the inner radical Wink

A soothing tune...

up
10 users have voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@QMS

And thanks for the tune.

I like having other folks around who talk in music. Smile

Dave Brubeck tends to help me wash out my mind when I've looked at too much establishmentarian politics.

up
4 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

QMS's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

in Ann Arbor back in the daze.
Showed up in Newport a couple times.

cool jazz

thanks

up
2 users have voted.

When Dore started asking progressives to threaten Pelosi's as Speaker, Jimmy was giving voice I believe to the frustration of the inability of progressive political leadership to do anything. ForceTheVote was DO_SOMETHING!!!! Bernie came on the scene much too late in the second stimulus to make any difference. Since he capitulated to Biden, he has been neutered with big media making him eat shit. But ForceTheVote was something with real consequences.

A word about paygo as some critical backroom concession. I remember when Pelosi first implemented it she told progressives not to worry as any bill with spending could be exempted. As Dore pointed out, so what if there is no vote on MFA, paygo does not matter.

up
15 users have voted.
enhydra lutris's picture

with ourselves, and then with the larger populace, starting with potential sympathizers and "allies" and then spreading the message. None of today's politicians are or can be "progressives", they stole, corrupted and co-opted that word, like many before it. Fine, let them keep it, but make new language and scrupulously and stentoriously defend it - I recommend,Real Left, True Left, Actual Left, or any of the above.

Next, we must quit fiddling around the edges. Jimmy came up with an arguably workable tactic, arguably the best available, and it was rejected. What then is the obvious conclusion? Is it that those who didn't support it wanted it to fail? Well, yes, but that isn't and wasn't the end or goal. They wanted MF4A to fail! That must be acknowledged by everybody, observers and participants alike.

Beyond that, this year, Nancy and the rest of the Democrats in Congress, like their GOP buddies, affirmatively wanted to give vast sums of money to wealthy individuals and corporations, businesses owned by politicians and their relatives, the military, and many other non-worthy and/or non-needy recipients. At the same time, they wanted to withhold all but a meagre pittance from the bulk of the populace, the normal, ordinary working (or not as the case may be) people. They wanted the people to be needy, stressed, and hungry; they wanted them to face foreclosures, evictions and repossessions; and they wanted them to lack real healthcare. These goals and ambitions must be pointed out constantly and consistently until the people begin to get it in the same way that they've been led to buy into Russiagate, Syrian gas attacks, and the existence of a "progressive" cadre within the democratic party.

When you do a thing, knowing the results of that action beforehand, then you obviously desire the results, all of them and most especially the final one. If you drop a boulder off a cliff above a lake, you affirmatively wish it to not merely strike the lake, but also to sink to the bottom thereof. They did what they did knowing full well what the outcomes would be and they ergo can not dodge the fact that they affirmatively desired those outcomes. They at no time had a gun to their heads.

There is no verifiable "Long Game", not here, not now, not ever.

be well and have a good one

edited to fix assorted typos

up
17 users have voted.

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

I've seen a lot of critics of #forcethevote saying things like "people should be angry...BUT..." and then it goes into something about not angry like Jimmy Dore or not angry at AOC/The Squad or not angry enough to tell a politician to fuck off, etc. Basically tone policing on behalf of elected Democrats.

As I said in another comment today, it's really troubling to see people putting politicians above criticism because they happen to agree with their Tweets or whatever. It's fine and dandy to support a politician and I would say even be a bit of a fan of them. But it doesn't excuse them from not being who they claim to be, which is what I see happening.

And when this first started gaining steam, I wished it had been nearly anyone other than Jimmy Dore who brought it up. I knew this would become about JD and I don't think it's because he made it about him. In fact, he made a few videos offering to step aside if one of his critics wanted to pick up the batton. On the other hand, it also occurred to me that had he not been throwing bombs to get people's attention, it never would have gotten past a few videos on his channel.

Also, as an aside, has AOC ever actually said Jimmy's name or directly referred to him during all this? I've seen Tweets of hers where she's clearly talking about him and she's been willing to debate by proxy (with Justin Jackson, a football player!) but it seems very cowardly to me the way she took on this debate (and I'm pretty sure JD wasn't talking about her until she engaged with Jackson on Twitter.)

Edited for grammar.

up
17 users have voted.

Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Dr. John Carpenter

Please keep talking!

up
7 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal I don't think I have "the answers" to anything. I only know what I know. Essays like yours spark a lot of thinking, and I appreciate that.

up
7 users have voted.

Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.

@Dr. John Carpenter I noticed that also in the twitter threads. And then her remarks aimed at Jimmy about him not being some official member of the M4A leadership. All of this after Dore gave her visibility on his show early in her first campaign.

After a while the resistance to Dore's plan of action seems to be a class divide or conflict on the the Left. There are the hyper intellectualized and highly educated leftists vs. most people who lean left and support Dore's proposal. The objections to Dore's proposals sound like think tank debates and groupies divorced from the realities of what people are going through.

I suspect this divide will continue as the overly educated leftists try to re-assert control of narratives coming from the left.

up
8 users have voted.

Up to this point, the gatekeepers have had this mantra anytime someone on the left complains about something: "What's you plan?" Well, someone presented them with a plan and all they could do was say "politics doesn't work like that" or "this isn't the time" or they attacked the messenger. The only concern I heard that made any sense was that #forcethevote wasn't asking for enough or anything concrete, but I guarantee had there been any more of an ask, we would have heard how we needed to walk before we run or we were asking for unicorns or all those usual tropes.

I never did hear an alternative except the claim of behind the scenes negotiations for who knows what. Yeah, that and a sternly worded letter might get you a slot on MSNBC, but it's not good for much else.

up
18 users have voted.

Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.

Lookout's picture

They may not directly take corporate money, but they take their marching orders from them.

Pay.low.see has a much lower approval than Trump, and as a result lost seats. Why didn't someone challenger her? Because they are bought and paid for.

They made the argument about tone because they couldn't argue on substance. Who would vote against M4A during a pandemic? Sure would be bad optics. That's why they couldn't allow a vote. Insurance, Big pharma, AMA, private hospitals, etc says "NO!"

Thanks for the OT and welcome to Tuesday!

up
14 users have voted.

“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Lookout

I hope all is going well with you on your mountain.

I miss music. I mean, live music. You know what I mean.

They made the argument about tone because they couldn't argue on substance.

Precisely. About tone, and character. That is what the Religious Right and the Reagan (counter) Revolution pioneered as the way to destroy the American left, and it's worked so well that now parts of the American left use it on each other.

Dore did not use it. In fact, there was nothing personal in his original call for action. It was about politics, and policy. That's why he has to be discredited.

up
10 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Anja Geitz's picture

We just don’t understand how things work. Ha! I remember when that line of claptrap used to gall me. Now I just remind myself that contrary to what the Establishment would like us to believe, there are a lot of us who know exactly how it works. As in recognizing that most politicians will ALWAYS pick their careers over helping their constituents. Once seen through that filter, the procedural “logic” they throw at us to cover up their self-aggrandizing power plays is seen for exactly what it is. So get the popcorn out and watch these bastards twist themselves up into pretzels making their lies believable. Of course I also like to think that the number of people who now see this is skewing younger, but social media is a terrible barometer to make that assessment. Still, apart from the essay that was up here yesterday bemoaning the supposed “circular firing squad” on the Left, I have personally enjoyed watching how butt hurt politico hacks are over the #fraudsquad hashtag that is making its prolific rounds on Twitter these days.

Great essay CSTMS. Good to see you here on Tuesday mornings!

up
16 users have voted.

There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Anja Geitz

up
3 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

1. Dore, and I admit I am not a fan, lives in Pasadena CA, which is represented in the House by Reps. Judy Chu and Adam Schiff. Chu is a Progressive Caucus member. So why did not Dore see fit to call out his own representative? Like a young man named Benjamin Dixon (would he be related to the late and lamented journalist from the Black Agenda Report?) said on the Majority Report, why did Dore have to go clear across the country? Dixon was flat calling Dore "a Fed". I don't know about that, but on first glance he does seem rather selective in his targets, which is a bit of a warning signal. I may be over sensitive, but I am old enough to remember when the CIA brought in Agent Steinem to derail the women's movement.

2. An aging white guy delivering an obscenity laced tirade against a young Puerto Rican woman who, whatever you might think of her conduct in Congress so far, seems to be an inspiration for many young non-Anglo women is not a good look. Or so I would think. I am an independent, maybe you Dems know better. Not to mention that the list of VIPs whom Dore said had "turned against" AOC included, as near as I could make out, not one single person who lives and votes in her district. Is it too much to ask that Dore actually learn how our government works before he starts commenting, that is, ranting, about it?

3. Those of you who are fans of Dore, or think well of him, please help me out here, as I don't follow his channel. Where was he when Feinstein, from his OWN state, was reelected to the Senate? Now correct me if I am wrong, but I do remember reading that her opponent, one Mr. DeLeon, had, while in the CA legislature, shepherded a progressive health care bill through that body only to see it vetoed by then Gov. Jerry Brown? Maybe Dore was right in there, on top of things, rallying progressives to petition Gov. Brown not to veto and later, to get out voters for DeLeon. Maybe he was. I don't know. Because if he was MIA at that time, then Dixon's accusation becomes a little more credible.

4. My daughter, a DSA member who lives in NYC, though not in AOC's district, says progressives in NYC think Dore is a joke and that AOC continues to be popular in her district and throughout the city. I gathered that there is not much liking for a rich white guy from an upscale, nose in the air place like Pasadena--not that NYC is not also expensive, but still--disrespecting one of their own.

5. Rep, Ocassio Cortez is very good at some things. Clearly, she hasn't the intellectual heft of former law school professor and writer of law textbooks Rep. Katie Porter, but AOCs charisma and passion open up cultural space for Porter to be able to ask rude questions of establishment sacred cows like Jamie Dimon. That in itself is an important contribution.

6. This last point merits a separate discussion, but MFA is not good policy. It is basically a Great Society "program", jobs for middle and upper middle class graduates too incompetent to get into law school, and payouts to various sectors of the private MIC. A Democrat, I forget the name, who was running for Congress in Rep. Delgado's district, said he was meeting people in the rural parts of that district who had to drive 200 miles to have babies delivered. MFA does nothing to address such problems. What we need is a national health service, with free, or means tested, clinics in every neighborhood. Still plenty of jobs, but not so much payouts to private companies.

up
3 users have voted.

Nastarana

QMS's picture

@Nastarana

good point that. Not access to health insurance.
M4A doesn't quite address this quandary.
The 'affordable health care act' was anything but affordable.
Listen to how many say 'yeah got health insurance' but can't afford to
use it.

Clarity is in sourcing out the details, demanding health care
as a right, demanding the legislators take care of the people instead of their
careers, and FFS stop wasting the peoples treasures on war.

.02 cent rant

up
10 users have voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Nastarana

Most of them probably support the establishment. You can support the establishment and be a progressive. In fact, I'm starting to think that most progressives do.

As far as Jimmy Dore not knowing how government works because he talks about AOC rather than talking about, to, or through his own representative, in fact he started by addressing all House progressives:

"I call upon all elected House members, all the members who ran on Medicare for All, and for all the members who are part of the Progressive Caucus in Congress, all the members of the Squad. What we need to do now is we need to work together as a movement. What do we need? We need 15 Democrats. That's all we need. 15 Democrats to tell Nancy Pelosi that you will not vote for her as Speaker unless Medicare for All is put on the House floor for a vote. That's it. It's really that simple. Now is the time for progressives to exercise their power, play hardball, and use their power for the benefit of their constituents."

That sounds like how American politics is supposed to work to me. If I remember my civics class. Is the problem that Dore didn't mention Judy Chu by name? It's also, as I pointed out, quite a pragmatic plan.

Later, yes, he focused on AOC because she stepped out to defend the progressives who did not want to do this. In essence, she began speaking for them. Now probably, he should have refused to mention her by name just the way she refused to mention him, but in all fairness, politics is not his chosen profession. He doesn't have the advice of political consultants. He's just a citizen of this country. You know, the people who used to be a valid part of this country and its governance, back before the Clinton Democrats convinced everyone that only professionals should interact with the political system. Everybody else can wait till they're told to vote, or cheer.

As for it not being "a good look" for an old white guy to criticize a young Puerto Rican woman:

People's skin color, mother tongue, and gonads do not protect them from criticism. Not in any liberation movement I'm part of--or ever will be part of. Neither does their culture, religion, or history. In fact, nobody should be protected from criticism, but using identity politics is using the language of the left to protect politicians from being criticized. That is one of the most corrupt political gestures I've ever seen, and I'm sorry that it has become so normalized that even well-meaning progressives and lefties believe in it. Even socialists, for God's sakes, who, above all people, should know better. Justice does not reside in anybody's genetic code, nor does it accrue automatically when one arises from an oppressed culture, as people like Ben Carson and Condi Rice have amply proved.

If I get you, I'm supposed to be scared that black people and Latinos in NYC are on AOC's side and have contempt for Jimmy Dore. I'm not scared. If they want to side with people who deny them healthcare because they enjoy the fact that a woman of color is their representative, fine. I'm with the people who care about whether or not people die unnecessarily more than they care about the color of their politicians' faces.

Opening up space to ask rude questions of Jamie Dimon is nice, I guess, but it will have no effect on how many people will die unnecessarily this year. A M4A vote might have done that, or at least advanced us one incremental step toward doing it. Yet it seems that we've all decided to accept images (pictures of black and latina women in Congress) and words (speeches, rude questions to Jamie Dimon) in place of policy change. As Obama said to some climate activists in Boston once, "The climate speech was last summer."

Ben Dixon is a guy I used to listen to. As far as accusing Dore of being an operative, he should talk. In fact, he shouldn't talk, because it's pointless to accuse people of being operatives online, no matter which side of these personal controversies one lines up on. But if anybody is an operative, I'd pick the guy who makes character attacks on people who ask politicians to change what they're doing. Before I pick the guy requesting public health insurance for all people.

And yes, I know that M4A is not the Holy Grail. The more they oppose M4A, the more I demand a National Health Service (well funded). In fact, I hold the position you described about M4A. That in no way suggests that I should have opposed #ForcetheVote or Jimmy Dore, since what he is attempting to do, more than anything, is to force politicians into a position where they can either get on the side of the people, and help them at least get health insurance so they don't go medically bankrupt during a global pandemic, or stand revealed as not being willing to take professional risks to do that.

up
16 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal That I hadn't known.

As for ID pol, I guess I ought to have said that I object to obscenity laced tirades addressed by anyone to anyone else. From an older, middle aged man to a young woman, it uncomfortably reminds me of male public hazing of women, which happens a LOT on the West Coast. And, yes, I do in fact think he ought to have called out both Chu and Schiff by name, but I have a bias towards regionalism. But, like I said I am independent and have to suppose that the Dems know what they are doing.

The part of CA I know and loath is the central valley. If Pasadena is at all similar in attitudes to places like Fremont, Santa Rosa, Petaluma and other towns in and around the Bay area, I doubt I want to visit. I have never watched the Rose Bowl parade being not a TV watcher.

I would still like to know what Dore was or was not up to during Feinstein's recoronation campaign. Especially in view of the fact that her opponent had already helped pass heath care legislation in the CA legislature, which, one would think, might have given him some credibility with progressives.

up
1 user has voted.

Nastarana

Anja Geitz's picture

@Nastarana

So why did not Dore see fit to call out his own representative? Like a young man named Benjamin Dixon ...said on the Majority Report, why did Dore have to go clear across the country? Dixon was flat calling Dore "a Fed". I don't know about that, but on first glance he does seem rather selective in his targets, which is a bit of a warning signal. I may be over sensitive, but I am old enough to remember when the CIA brought in Agent Steinem to derail the women's movement.

I'm always fascinated by the selective imagination process. Jimmy Dore doesn't call out Judy Chu ergo it is a "warning sign" that Dore has ulterior motives? Using that kind of analogous connect-the-dots hypothesis, one could say the same thing about Benjamin Dixon's motives.

up
12 users have voted.

There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

@Anja Geitz are in fact warning signs that all is not as it seems. I also do believe that resort to obscenity at times where that is not warranted is usually a sign of a hidden agenda. Maybe Dore's agenda is that he just wants to be important. I neither know nor care.

up
1 user has voted.

Nastarana

Anja Geitz's picture

@Nastarana

Reducing "offensive" critiques of our politicians to I.D politics:

An aging white guy delivering an obscenity laced tirade against a young Puerto Rican woman who, whatever you might think of her conduct in Congress so far, seems to be an inspiration for many young non-Anglo women is not a good look.

So instead of being grossly offended by the predatory policies that are killing millions of afflicted Americans during a global pandemic, we're going to pull out the clutching the pearls trope over the "offense" taken of the language of this debate?

Wow.

up
15 users have voted.

There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

lotlizard's picture

@Anja Geitz  
and courageous for quite awhile now.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=robert+de+niro+fuck+trump+tony+awards&ia=web

Hollywood and hip-hop culture lead the way, all we ordinary folk can do is follow along — who are we to question?

up
6 users have voted.
Anja Geitz's picture

@Nastarana

who lives in the Pasadena-adjacent Altadena (and who also lived in NYC), weighing in on who is qualified to talk about the millions of Americans dying from preventable diseases because the U.S. has no socialized healthcare?

I gathered that there is not much liking for a rich white guy from an upscale, nose in the air place like Pasadena--not that NYC is not also expensive, but still--disrespecting one of their own.

Maybe you should come on out for a visit and experience how diverse we are here both economically and demographically first hand instead of, you know, basing your opinions on the dazzling images of the Rose Parade?

up
12 users have voted.

There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

@Nastarana does anyone really think a politician that is going to change things gets the kind of media blitz AOC has had, especially before she actually did anything other than get elected? I'm talking about Vainty Fair profiles and Netflix documentaries, etc. To me, that was the first sign that AOC wasn't going to be a threat to the establishment.

I had more typed out, but I realized I was just repeating what CStMS said. If you're sincere about wanting to understand all this, I'd recommend you start with her post and investegate a little earlier in the timeline before AOC jumped in. You also might also do a little research on where Jimmy is coming from on this and his background too.

up
13 users have voted.

Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.

@Dr. John Carpenter @Dr. John Carpenter and that was quite enough to know about someone of whom I am not a fan. If you are a fan, maybe you could introduce him to the rest of us who are not so impressed and explain what it is we are missing.

up
0 users have voted.

Nastarana

Lookout's picture

@Nastarana

To see him as some rich out of touch millionaire is I think mistaken. Wiki has CIA trolls controlling and even eliminating peoples pages so take wiki with a grain of salt when looking at pages of progressives.
Edit to add evidence:
https://thegrayzone.com/2020/06/10/wikipedia-formally-censors-the-grayzo...
https://thegrayzone.com/2020/06/11/meet-wikipedias-ayn-rand-loving-found...

Perhaps the unchecked problem of political bias and coordinated smear campaigns by a small coterie of Wikipedia editors is not a bug, but a deliberately conceived feature of the website.

The attack was on Jimmy's tone (which is a turn off for many) because the substance can't be argued. Forcing a vote on M4A during a pandemic is a moment that has now been squandered.

This was the moment when Pelosi, the power monger, could have been pressured. The squad showed their colors. Loyal to party not the people. Jimmy helped reveal the falseness of the so called progressives.

My two cents.

up
8 users have voted.

“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

@Lookout I never said he was a millionaire. And I am still waiting to know where he was and what contribution he made, if any, to defeating Feinstein. In his own state, one would think, he might have had some influence. And, his demeanor brings up, for me, very uncomfortable memories of men openly catcalling and harrassing women, like me, who were simply minding their own business. Yes, I do understand that it is no one else's responsibility to make me feel comfy, but neither is it any responsibility of mine to try to please Dore's fanclub. And, also, I still say it is his own reps, Chu or Schiff, whom he should be calling out. If Chu is going to claim membership in the Progressive Caucus, what has she done for progressive causes?

up
0 users have voted.

Nastarana

enhydra lutris's picture

@Nastarana

have a hard time with all of the overlaid connotations, often multiple, alongside of the denotations, but I'll address some of it.

1) Jimmy has a national show and audience. AOC is quite well known, having put herself out there, so to speak, as a leader and a comer and the face of a new rebellious group who is going to sort things out. She has a major national presence, and as a special subset to the left of the progressive caucus, which of late suddenly swelled to include a whole bunch of the usual self-styled liberals who are now self-styled progressives. Beyond that, she was a guest of Jimmy, early on, eliciting and receiving his support as she touted her program and standing. That's why he issued his challenge to her specifically and why he then called here out, instead of somebody almost nobody has heard of.

2. Not exactly an aging white gut, but a whole lot of so what here and a whole lot of insinuation. Jimmy swears a lot, a well known fact. So do tons of over folks today, jocks, coaches, TV celebs, actors, singeres, bands, politicians and the guy down as the convenience store. Nobody, of any age, gender or ethnicity is immune from being sworn at if they earned it. Not a Democrat here, but they're not immune either. If you are trying to insinuate some racist overtones here consider that Jimmy's wife, Steph Zamora is also a woman of color and she also swears, often at and about politicians and I would not be surprised if she hasn't sworn at or about AOC once or twice recently herself.

3. You do know that he's a comdedian who segued into political comedy/commentary because the press was such a bunch of useless noise. What he was doing at some prior point leads no credibility to anything and especially not to the ramblings of this Dixon dude who didn't even understand the differrence in prominence and draw between the self promoted leader of the pack AOC and some minor non-entity from LA; wspecially is said dude actually went so far as to call Dore a Fed. That's simply laughable

4. Don't really care what members of the DSA think about anything. If any of them actually try to do anything locally for the good of the people, fine, but though Jimmy is hit or miss, he provides commentary and criticism about world and national affairs, not particularly about the subways in NYC or whatever. Did they stop "broken windows", btw? Just asking.

5. What? Sorry, can't address that because there is nothing to address.

6. Yeah, MF4A has a lot of flaws and isn't national health care. So we can sit and do nothing whatsoever forever, or what? MF4A is still vastly butter than what we have, will save lives and improve the health of a ton of people, while we wait for Pelosi to decide that it is time for National Health Care. (prepare for a very long wait, like lifetimes) I say Pelosi, though it will be up to a long line of her heirs to insure that we never get national health care or anything remotely like it, it certainly won't come from the Dems or their self-styled radical wing (led by AOC, don't forget), they can't even get a vote on MF4A, flawed as it is, past her.

be well and have a good one

up
6 users have voted.

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

ggersh's picture

@enhydra lutris

up
4 users have voted.

The correct response to someone who supports going to war if China attacks Taiwan is “Are you enlisted?”

The correct response when they inevitably answer “no” is “Then shut the fuck up.”

Caitlin

lotlizard's picture

a huge rally in Washington DC in 2010, about — well, about nothing, really. No demands. Just everyone spinning their wheels, burnishing their progressive credentials, kidding around, and indulging in what has become known as virtue signalling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rally_to_Restore_Sanity_and/or_Fear

Shouldn’t that energy have been directed into something concrete, to put the country on a better-prepared track before the various looming crises came to a head? Talk about frittering away precious time with frivolous pursuits! What a waste!

up
12 users have voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@lotlizard

That's when I realized that, as much as I like Jon Stewart and Colbert, they are on a different path from mine.

up
12 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

orlbucfan's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal to Stewart and Colbert. I'm not a TVidiot, FWIW. This latest TWITter storm starring Jimmy Dore is a lot of hot air. AOC and her krewe have forced Pelousy to weaken PayGo. That sure is more than Dore and his crowd have achieved. Hope you are well, CStMS. I am down here. Rec'd!! Smile

up
4 users have voted.

Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.

@orlbucfan When Pelosi introduced it she very explicitly told liberals not to fret as any program can be made to be exempt. Even Pelosi at the time did not believe paygo was unchangable.

up
3 users have voted.
enhydra lutris's picture

@MrWebster

Its complete elimination, in and of itself, cannot guarantee the passage of any bill.

It is an enormous nothingburger that, at best, provides a little cover for the conservadems and austerity freaks when they slap down anything to benefit ordinary people, and not even that as far as those who understand it. Why "the squad" amde it an agenda item and treat a couple of minor exemptions as a victory is a complete mystery except as a matter of showmanship.

be well and have a good one

up
4 users have voted.

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

mimi's picture

@lotlizard
boring and quite frankly idiotic rally there was. If it were not for Sarah Palin and Glen Beck's counter 'Restoring Honor Rally' at the other end of the Mall at the same day in front of the Lincoln Memorial, I tell you, the failing of the empire would have been clearly understood back then. But Sarah and Glen, they saved the nation and Made America Great Again. /s

All I remember is that I got a stiff arm to hold the mikes up high to catch some 'vox populi'.

up
7 users have voted.

mimi

wendy davis's picture

subject, miz signal; more power to you!

i'l offer that i don't care for jimmy dore, but i do appreciate why justin jackson first, then dore called for alleged progressives to hold pelosi's speakership hostage so she'd bring M4A to a floor vote. and i'm assuming they were speaking off pramila jayapal's bill w/ 120 co-sponsors.

when they failed to do so, RT.com covered it this way: ‘Nancy Pelosi re-elected as US House speaker after AOC and other 'Squad' members swallow hard, avert giving gavel to Republican’, 4 Jan, 2021 (some of the tweets are hilarious!)

'Nancy Pelosi has been re-elected as US House speaker, overcoming division with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and other left-wing lawmakers as Democrats were forced to consolidate behind her to avoid handing the gavel to a Republican.

At one point in Sunday's floor vote, House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-California) led Pelosi (D-California) by 189-187, with three members voting "present" and two choosing others, giving Democrats some nervous moments. "Can you please explain to me how they could've given us a Republican speaker?" one Twitter user asked.

The decision by AOC and like-minded progressives to back Pelosi has sparked accusations of them selling out to the establishment, prompting calls for a third party from disenchanted supporters.

"The entire Squad voted for Nancy Pelosi," Democrat activist Peter Daou said. "That includes incoming progressives. Tweets praising them for abstaining were premature. The establishment wins again. A third party is necessary."

Ironically, Omar had sent out a message hours earlier with a picture of six Squad members and the caption, "Unbought and unbossed." After the vote, podcast host Jimmy Dore mocked her, tweeting, "Ha! Nancy Pelosi is your boss."

i'll readily admit i have know idea who kevin mccarthy is, but 'forced to vote' reminded me of tweet back in the day via Rt.com as well: ‘Democrats, Never-Trumpers compiling ‘lists’ of Trump supporters in case ‘they try to deny complicity’ in future’, 7 Nov, 2020, RT.com

“Democrats and conservative critics of President Donald Trump have begun creating ‘blacklists’ of his staff and supporters, apparently hoping to shun them from polite society as divisions grow wider amid a contentious election.

As ballots continue to be tallied across several battleground states three days after Americans hit the polls to select their next president, knives are coming out among some of Trump’s detractors. A new initiative dubbed the “Trump Accountability Project” is compiling names of administration officials and the president’s high-profile supporters and donors, insisting “we must never forget those who helped further the Trump agenda.”

#WokeMcCarthyism. but it's her Brand, and her Brand sells well, no matter how she votes (including against her virtue-signaling Tweeting.

there are one or two others, but:

up
7 users have voted.
lotlizard's picture

@wendy davis  
fighting for us, incrementally, while the Powers That Be reward her with world-class PR and minimal-influence committee assignments.

up
8 users have voted.
enhydra lutris's picture

@wendy davis

be not merely bossed, but outright owned as well. However, they are definitely not bought, becuase they did not charge anything for their fealty and vassalage, no deal was cut, they got nothing whatsoever in return except insofar as they are very likely to be able to "get along" with their masters.

be well and have a good one.

up
7 users have voted.

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

are willing to say what he was, or was not doing in 2-18 when DiFi was being reelected. So, I am guessing he did nothing, or very little, to oppose her.

I conclude that, while Dore is likely not a "Fed", he does likely receive funding from various entities which entities hint, suggest, even direct him to go after some targets and avoid others. IOW, I think he is bought and paid for.

What I notice about elections recently, most recently the Warnock victory today, is that candidates who can say I come from a working class background, I have been where you are now, I know what you are going through and here is what we need to do about it are winning primaries, and elections. Not always, but often enough to be noticeable.

up
0 users have voted.

Nastarana

enhydra lutris's picture

@Nastarana @Nastarana

activities over the course of that election seasons and can't see bothering wasting time trying to find out for no reason whatsoever. "Concluding" stuff with absolutely no basis in fact, no evidence and no reason to so believe is a pretty weird use of that word, assuming, or guessing, or perhaps accusing would be more linguistically correct imo.

be well and have a good one

PS - DiFi is like earthquakes. She's well funded by the donor class, never attracts a viable primary opponent and is always opposed by somebody from the GOP who is both worse and very unlikely to unseat her. Nobody here relly wastes any time on her, she's a curse that lingers.

up
3 users have voted.

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

@enhydra lutris @enhydra lutris Dore was on the comedy club circuit, talked politics, but didn't become particularly activist until fairly recently, particularly with the COVID shut down.
I agree his history with Feinstein is not apparent.
I do not think he is bought or paid for, particularly when he was booted from a paying gig, TYT, for disagreeing with the party meme.
Anyway, I would be hard pressed to believe he is living large off of payola.

up
2 users have voted.
enhydra lutris's picture

@on the cusp

but had no idea when he went activist, and, fo course, I then realized that there is a disconnect with DiFi anyway, she's horrible and owned but also can't be ousted, nobody really even tries, everybody just ssits around and prays she finally quits.

The whole thread is preposterous. Why did he go clear across country to criticize ..., but not Why did he go clear across country to feature, promote and endorse the exact same politician earlier in her career; it all smells of "JD criticized my idol so I'm gonna besmirch his reputation with anything I can think up". Just felt I had to put my oar in because of the illogic of it all.

be well and have a good one

up
2 users have voted.

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@enhydra lutris

Why did he go clear across country to criticize ..., but not Why did he go clear across country to feature, promote and endorse the exact same politician earlier in her career;

up
0 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Nastarana

I'm about as far from being Californian as you can get, being Floridian. As per your description of how American politics works, I don't know anything about that particular moment in the CA legislature. I do know that Jimmy has, in the past, castigated CA for not getting single-payer healthcare through even though the Democrats basically ran the entire state. But I don't know anything about that specific moment. So answering your question would require me to do deep background on Jimmy Dore and the CA legislature. I'm not motivated to do that, since I don't actually care where he was at that time.

Oh, wait. It's actually not the bill that Feinstein's opponent was trying to pass that you're talking about; you're talking about the moment that that opponent was trying to unseat DiFi...

So, just made a cursory search of Jimmy Dore's videos for Feinstein's re-election. I came up with this.

and this:

Edited because I realized I'd misunderstood the moment you wanted me to focus on.

up
0 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Nastarana

I conclude that, while Dore is likely not a "Fed", he does likely receive funding from various entities which entities hint, suggest, even direct him to go after some targets and avoid others. IOW, I think he is bought and paid for.

How did you get there from nobody responding to your single-payer question?

Anyway, I responded now. I still don't see what it has to do with Jimmy Dore being an operative.

up
0 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver