Open Thread 2-16-17: There's a Lot of Sheeple Out There

Submitted by Shahryar on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 6:00am

open thread.jpg

Sometimes when you look at something analytically you come up with apparent answers that you don't like. This is one of those times.

We are a particular subgroup of what we think of as "the left". We (for the most part) disliked Bill Clinton, hated Shrub, supported Obama or Edwards in the 2008 race, quickly realized Obama was a con man killer, hated Hillary, supported either Bernie or Jill Stein or nobody (see Big Al's various posts encouraging not voting at all).

We saw clearly that the Democrats had no intention of following through on the 2008 promises, that they were not too concerned with losing majorities. We saw that rank and file Democrats were not bothered by Obama's wars, by his deportations, by his Bush-ness. And I want to discuss why that might be, why people didn't care and why now they're crazier than ever.

We've seen people getting mad at Trump for naming a Goldman Sachs guy to head the Treasury. Now these are the same people who said "so what?" when you and I wanted to know what was in Hillary's speeches. These are the same people who didn't care about the Goldman Sachs influence in the Obama administration. We know they were aware of that connection, the one they pooh-poohed and yet here they are, now angry, as if it had never happened with Obama. As if Hillary had never given those speeches. As if she never said "you need both a public and a private position."

Tthis must be some sort of phenomenon. It goes beyond excusing actions because it's your "side". It's outright blindness. Take this Facebook discussion I ran into. Someone posted a photo of a conference in Russia with Michael Flynn, Jill Stein and Vladimir Putin sitting at the same table and *that* is considered conclusive proof!! that Jill Stein was working for Putin to undermine Hillary's campaign. Never mind that Stein said she went there to discuss why bombing the Mideast should stop. It simply doesn't matter to some people. They've seen a photo!! So I pasted in her quote and instead of reacting to what she said (!) the reply wanted to know "what she was paid". And yet those $200,000+ speeches of Hillary's are not relevant.

But there's that photo, man....Jill Stein at the same table as Flynn and Putin. So (and this wasn't hard) I found a photo of Hillary shaking hands with Putin and smiling and posted that in the discussion. Crickets.

Ok, you all know what I'm talking about. It's a real derangement. You put evidence in front of them....and they do NOT see it. And these are people you might have previously thought were intelligent. Which brings me to that answer I don't want to acknowledge. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone were smart? Then we'd have equality and life would be lovely. But I now feel that's not the case. I think the people who hated what Bush did, who liked it when Obama did the same and now hate it because Trump's doing it are ....well, "stupid" might not be the accurate word. But "sheeple" fits pretty well. And they are the majority! I know it sounds elitist but sometimes the desire to NOT sound elitist will cause us to deliberately make a mistake. We don't want to believe it but, and this is what makes us different from the sheeple, if that's what the facts are then we have to accept them.

People believe, as Charles Foster Kane observed, "what I tell them to!" Awful as it sounds and as much as we want to think otherwise, this is true. So what do we do with this knowledge? For one thing, we might as well stop believing that introducing facts will make a difference. People are not persuaded by facts. Well, you and I might be, but not the majority. We're going to have to try to sway people using emotional pitches. And since we're fact based we can see a little problem there. It's not our natural environment and we could be ham-fisted. This sounds Machiavellian, doesn't it? I'm talking about manipulating people. If we want to create change we have to do this. Maybe those street demonstrations are the way to go. They're pretty much devoid of content and big on emotion.

This is my new alternative concept. I'm still going with ignoring the outside world and living my life. But as an option maybe organizing events is something to consider. What do you think? Is the whole idea too horrible? Am I wrong in the assumption that people can't listen to reason?

Oh yeah, it's an open thread so if you want to talk about something else that's fine too.

Solomon Burke

and they're blind so...Blind Faith

just tell them something good

and now for some denial...

and some more of that...

Tags:

Open Thread

emotional approach

stupidity

Vote

Comments

Submitted by riverlover on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 6:52am

Logic seems to fly off the rails. You may be right about emo

moves, calculated, and yes, ham-fisted because we don't operate that way. Let them wear pink cat hats, politely. Good now to see people reporting real-time on FB where ICE catch zones are set up. Another light snow dump overnight, looks like a good 5" of new fluff from the temp. (23F). Persistent snow band affecting me. Supposed to stop within the hour.

—

Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Submitted by eyo on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 10:30am

This is a political scandal on the level of Watergate, or worse

Blind faith: "I'm wasted and I can't find my way home" what a perfect California song, thanks. For those poor and without shelter in California, here are your representatives. Being Jared Huffman:
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/6671501-181/congressmen-thompson-huffman-call-for

“This is a political scandal on the level of Watergate, or worse,” Huffman said in an interview, referring to the 1972 burglary of Democratic Party party headquarters that brought down former President Richard Nixon.

“No one wants to step up and show any leadership,” Huffman said, referring to lack of action by House Speaker Paul Ryan and the two Republicans in charge of the House intelligence and oversight committees.

The FBI’s intercept of Flynn’s phone conversation with Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak in December, touching on American sanctions against Russia prior to Trump’s inauguration, validated concerns about the administration’s seemingly cozy relationship with America’s former Cold War foe, Huffman said.
...

Like I said before, just kill me now. There is nothing left here, and there is no where else to go (is there?). Oh well, shush shush STFU because Russia.

Don't notice the Americans long marching for justice, or the constituents living under bridges, because Russia!

Edited: replaced vulgar comment with more local unreality.

We covered last weekend’s Steelhead Festival. This anadromous salmonid that spawns in our Russian River was listed in 2005 as endangered by the federal Environmental Protection Agency. There is a federal hatchery at Warm Springs Dam dedicated to the survival of this species. Those are all facts supported by scientific research and decades of local eyewitness accounts. If the Trump Administration abolished the Environmentasl (sic) Protection Agency or the Endangered Species Act, our steelhead fish population would still be threatened.

Wine-grape industry is destroying the watershed, so of course "If the Trump Administration abolished the Environmentasl (sic) Protection Agency or the Endangered Species Act, our steelhead fish population would still be threatened." Dumb shit.

Another current local news story has to do with immigration laws, sanctuary cities and the local population of undocumented immigrants. Our reporting covers real people and families that are expressing real fears their families may be deported or divided by increased federal immigration law enforcement. The real facts are that there are 21,000 unauthorized non-citizens living in Sonoma County. Half of this number (15,000) are eligible for temporary legal status to remain here but only 4,000 so far have registered....

And ...? He moves on after that, so what's the point? "Our reporting covers real people and families that are expressing real fears their families may be deported or divided by increased federal immigration law enforcement." And ...? WTF!
Three's a strange way to be delivered.

Submitted by janis b on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 8:46pm

If only real and valid fears were transmitted by the media

@eyo

we might have a chance. Good that your local media is trying. There's so much that can be understood about the bigger picture by listening to what's happening locally and personally.

Blind faith: "I'm wasted and I can't find my way home" what a perfect California song, thanks. For those poor and without shelter in California, here are your representatives. Being Jared Huffman: http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/6671501-181/congressmen-thompson-huffman-call-for “This is a political scandal on the level of Watergate, or worse,” Huffman said in an interview, referring to the 1972 burglary of Democratic Party party headquarters that brought down former President Richard Nixon. “No one wants to step up and show any leadership,” Huffman said, referring to lack of action by House Speaker Paul Ryan and the two Republicans in charge of the House intelligence and oversight committees. The FBI’s intercept of Flynn’s phone conversation with Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak in December, touching on American sanctions against Russia prior to Trump’s inauguration, validated concerns about the administration’s seemingly cozy relationship with America’s former Cold War foe, Huffman said. ... Like I said before, just kill me now. There is nothing left here, and there is no where else to go (is there?). Oh well, shush shush STFU because Russia. Don't notice the Americans long marching for justice, or the constituents living under bridges, because Russia! Edited: replaced vulgar comment with more local unreality. We covered last weekend’s Steelhead Festival. This anadromous salmonid that spawns in our Russian River was listed in 2005 as endangered by the federal Environmental Protection Agency. There is a federal hatchery at Warm Springs Dam dedicated to the survival of this species. Those are all facts supported by scientific research and decades of local eyewitness accounts. If the Trump Administration abolished the Environmentasl (sic) Protection Agency or the Endangered Species Act, our steelhead fish population would still be threatened. Wine-grape industry is destroying the watershed, so of course "If the Trump Administration abolished the Environmentasl (sic) Protection Agency or the Endangered Species Act, our steelhead fish population would still be threatened." Dumb shit. Another current local news story has to do with immigration laws, sanctuary cities and the local population of undocumented immigrants. Our reporting covers real people and families that are expressing real fears their families may be deported or divided by increased federal immigration law enforcement. The real facts are that there are 21,000 unauthorized non-citizens living in Sonoma County. Half of this number (15,000) are eligible for temporary legal status to remain here but only 4,000 so far have registered.... And ...? He moves on after that, so what's the point? "Our reporting covers real people and families that are expressing real fears their families may be deported or divided by increased federal immigration law enforcement." And ...? WTF! Three's a strange way to be delivered.

Submitted by smiley7 on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 10:05pm

@janis b Hey janis, celebrate..

@janis b Hey janis, celebrate...been trying to catch you online as I come and go infrequently of late these past months; sending love.

Submitted by janis b on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 10:35pm

smiley!

@smiley7

Yes, let's celebrate love!

Very nice to see you.

[video:https://youtu.be/qBKFihD4CYM]

Submitted by eyo on Fri, 02/17/2017 - 2:55am

If only

@janis b thanks. The editor of our local paper is a tool for the wine-grape industry, without it there would be no paper. It was bought up by a neo-lib media group some years ago, and became part of the same boring template that gets applied everywhere. Commerce? Yay! Community? Meh, okay if you say so. Here, have some school sports and a bunch of churches.

It's embarrassing to admit, I lived in southern Sonoma County for thirty years in a bubble, before that the Marin County bubble, Bay Area proximity disease. The abuse and exploitation of field workers still exists up here in Virginia Dare apocalypse country. The wages are crap, there is practically no housing and rents are absurd. There's a yuge homeless population. Sure, some people "make it", and have their own exploitive businesses. Every one scratching for crumbs. Except the tourists, who come for the beauty? Wow. That is the thinking that needs to change. Inequality is not beautiful, no matter where.

So, what I'd like to see in the paper is what the fuck are the corporate employers doing? Are they providing security? Documentation? Housing? What is anyone doing except talk talk talk, while people get deported. I know there are a lot of lawyers stacking up to help, but that is just more of the same. If the industry is so great, then step the hell up and take action to protect the community from which you extract such a heavy price. Get creative.

Thanks

Submitted by janis b on Fri, 02/17/2017 - 4:24pm

So true, eyo

@eyo

Inequality is not beautiful, no matter where.

Submitted by importer on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 7:41am

My concern is that Obama et al are finishing the job on

what used to be the Democratic Party. These groups erupting all over the place, seemingly spontaneously are suspect. If they were able to get rid of Trump by some means, who do they think will take his place? Mike Pence is a raging evangelical fruitcake - ask Indiana, they are trying to unravel the mess he has created there with his religious fanaticism. He is the wet dream of the religious right, The Family, Doug Coe. He is the "ONE" they have been waiting for. They couldn't get their crazies in the front door, but they have one in the bull pen now, if they can take Trump down. The REPUBLICANS want Trump out, what better way than to create these riots and blame them on the Left.

Those "Democrats/liberals/progressives" who are buying into this "resistance" movement and listening to Michael Moore who seems to have slipped his moorings are being used and abused by the Right. Obama has spent 8 years destroying the Democratic Party, Hillary was to finish the job. They ALL have to protect their own butts from prosecution if someone actually gave a crap about the war crimes we have been perpetrating for years. Those that are following them in this endeavor have been duped, they are in denial that the last eight years have been a sham. That the way to power for the left is to get rid of Trump. That ship has sailed, we need to be organizing an effort for 2018 that can overcome the disaster of the DNC, Hillary and Obama. A new party would help. Instead, we are locked in a pitched battle that we can't win.

Those who don't identify left/right, but watch the passing parade are being conditioned right now to reject the Left in the next election. I'm having trouble myself relating to what is going on. If I'm having trouble, there are a lot of other people out there in the same boat.

I'm just holding my breath hoping they don't take Trump out by some means only to install Mike Pence who will continue the Neocon/lib march to World War III and have women in fashionable maternity wear with no shoes.

Submitted by WaterLily on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 11:02am

It's all too surreal.

@importer A good, in RL friend of mine actually posted on Facebook last night that if Trump were to be impeached/removed, he would like for Paul Ryan to take his place.

Paul. Fucking. Ryan.

This is the same guy who supported Bernie, was laid off from his job for no good reason and has been unable to find professional work because of what I suspect is ageism. He's now working retail and eventually would like to retire -- yet is willing to support Paul Ryan, the guy who seeks to gut Social Security. And why? Because "he's better than Pence."

He is an intelligent guy. But the manipulation is working.

Shoot me now.

what used to be the Democratic Party. These groups erupting all over the place, seemingly spontaneously are suspect. If they were able to get rid of Trump by some means, who do they think will take his place? Mike Pence is a raging evangelical fruitcake - ask Indiana, they are trying to unravel the mess he has created there with his religious fanaticism. He is the wet dream of the religious right, The Family, Doug Coe. He is the "ONE" they have been waiting for. They couldn't get their crazies in the front door, but they have one in the bull pen now, if they can take Trump down. The REPUBLICANS want Trump out, what better way than to create these riots and blame them on the Left. Those "Democrats/liberals/progressives" who are buying into this "resistance" movement and listening to Michael Moore who seems to have slipped his moorings are being used and abused by the Right. Obama has spent 8 years destroying the Democratic Party, Hillary was to finish the job. They ALL have to protect their own butts from prosecution if someone actually gave a crap about the war crimes we have been perpetrating for years. Those that are following them in this endeavor have been duped, they are in denial that the last eight years have been a sham. That the way to power for the left is to get rid of Trump. That ship has sailed, we need to be organizing an effort for 2018 that can overcome the disaster of the DNC, Hillary and Obama. A new party would help. Instead, we are locked in a pitched battle that we can't win. Those who don't identify left/right, but watch the passing parade are being conditioned right now to reject the Left in the next election. I'm having trouble myself relating to what is going on. If I'm having trouble, there are a lot of other people out there in the same boat. I'm just holding my breath hoping they don't take Trump out by some means only to install Mike Pence who will continue the Neocon/lib march to World War III and have women in fashionable maternity wear with no shoes.

Submitted by Amanda Matthews on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 12:41pm

Getting rid of Trump doesn't really help us at all. He's

@WaterLily
a useful idiot as far as I'm concerned. Let him fumble his way through the next 3.? years and then vote his ass out. No Pence, no Ryan. Trump may be a jackass, but those two are hyenas (for lack of a better example)

—

I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

Submitted by janis b on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 8:49pm

At least get your garden in first ; ).

@WaterLily

Submitted by WaterLily on Fri, 02/17/2017 - 9:08am

Yes!

@janis b I've been busy planning out a new space in the front yard, and it's keeping me sane (ish).

Submitted by janis b on Fri, 02/17/2017 - 4:28pm

Saved by the garden ; ).

@WaterLily

Enjoy, Eagles.

Submitted by dkmich on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 8:19am

I don't like liars, partisans, and hypocrites....

They do it because why? OK, most people are sheeple, but how can the rest keep from throwing tomatoes at them? Speaking of the party, this video takes 21 minutes to share just a couple of nuggets. An update on the race and an understanding of the inside game that is being played. Anyone but Perez would be progress.

—

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Submitted by Citizen Of Earth on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 8:31am

I gave up on Obama in his first month

as soon as he appointed Summers and Geithner to economy and treasury. They quickly continued the Bush bailout of the banksters and fingered the taxpayers to pay for it all.

Fast forward to Pres Hemorrhoid Trump. Look at his cabinet and appointments. I'm expecting Great Things -- NOT.

—

Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.

Submitted by ghotiphaze on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 10:48am

Funny Trump is the gremlin.

@Citizen Of Earth I picture him in Peter Falk's role in The Mirror.

—

There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

Submitted by Citizen Of Earth on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 12:12pm

Hahaha. Several perfect analogies in that image

@ghotiphaze

1) Only William Shatner character is aware of the unfolding disaster. (in our case there are a few of us but small numbers)
2) He's looking for the stewardess thinking she can/will help -- Fat Chance.
3) The lady sitting next to him is obliviously fast asleep (the sheeple).

—

Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.

Submitted by Not Henry Kissinger on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 8:57am

I prefer 'Eloi' to 'sheeple'...

A typical DNC meeting....

Election Day...

—

The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

Submitted by janis b on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 8:59pm

"The Time Machine"

@Not Henry Kissinger @Not Henry Kissinger

a perfect analogy! Shepherded by alarm.

* changed gathered to shepherded.

Submitted by Pricknick on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 9:09am

Darth would be proud.

The hate, anger and fear are strong in todays world.
Perhaps is is better to acknowledge that we're screwed, tend the flowers, enjoy a favorite beverage, smoke some herb and watch it all burn from the comfort of our favorite lawn chair.

—

Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.

Submitted by Big Al on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 9:11am

Hopefully, and I mean that sincerely,

there's no where to go but up.

[video:https://youtu.be/JrdEMERq8MA]

Submitted by the_poorly_educated on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 9:49am

Founders template doesn't fit over corporatocracy reality

This is the disconnect. People trying to make sense of world using "The Founders" template. Doesn't work. Now lay a corporatocracy template over what you are seeing and it all makes sense. The world is ruled by corporations, mostly US corps and the Congress and WH follow their orders. Trump is just following Big Oil's orders. Obama and Hillary fell on the MIC side of the corporatocracy but it's just a game the rich play to see who gets the bigger part of the pie with regard to gov't contracts and Congressional legislation. All the players will still be rich regardless of outcome but the little guy is the one who pays the price and argues over stuff that is inconsequential. Trump was negotiating with the rich in Russia to overturns Obama's little trick of screwing over Tillerson and his 500 billion dollar deal. It's all just a game they play disquised with "national interests" bullshit. There are no nations anymore. There is no treason if their are no nations. If you lay that template over whats going on, it all makes sense. OWS was right. Our "Democracy" is a sham with the corporations controlling the decisions and Congress playing along as if the people have the power. Whether they're re-elected or not , they're probably taken care of by the corporations regardless. The amount of money at stake is tremendous. What's a little corporate welfare for the politicians?

—

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho

Submitted by Mark from Queens on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 10:05am

Summed it up quite nicely, Shah.

If I had only one wish and one wish only, it would probably be for the entire world to remove completely from their daily intake, all corporate mainstream news and advertisements. I've been saying this for years because I think it really has everything to do with why we can't evolve as a society. Where does one get his/her information from? How does it either cement or chip away at preconceptions that were either formed early in one's formative years by bigoted family members and/or friends, along with an education system designed to indelibly imprint concepts of American Exceptionalism and the falsehood of the American Dream via unbridled capitalism? The media and advertisements drive those concepts home with subliminal precision.

Can you imagine what a different world it would be if people were reacting to one another, not from fear, suspicion and competitiveness, but with the universal language of empathy, compassion, and cooperation? When you boil it down it really comes to the degrees to which one has been propagandized by the news, that people take on the most confounding positions, often against their own interests and hypocritically against their self-professed beliefs. We all know these fundamental truths at our cores, but we're blinded by this extraneous garbage flying at us all day, every day, at warp speed.

For those reasons I find myself lately also disconnecting from news almost entirely, save for being here and checking out the various stories and links from a place I trust. I'll still watch Jimmy Dore and Lee Camp, read Greenwald and Hedges, and check in with Democracy Now and TYT. But as you and Shaz and some others have been alluding to, I'm also much more of a mind to establish local community bonds and ties with people I've been working with and looking forward to establishing some ways to further that while also bringing new people into the fold. In my view, it's a great time for forward-thinking people like us to get out in front of this new-found interest protest, so that it's not entirely co-opted by the shitheads in the Dem Party under the ruse of some bullshit Resistance(TM).

When I feel like completely checking out, but know that I can't because we're all the same here - compelled to stay engaged and fight, I often turn to check in with this guy. Russell Brand has shown to me an exceptionally evolved, brilliant person, who has such a cogent understanding of things, a gentle disposition, and filled with compassion. Plus, he's got a lovely British Cockney accent, is a rebel, a former drug addict, R&R spirit - all the things many of us dig!

If you don't really know him, this is an amazing interview. It's with a sort of British Bill O'Reilly character. Check out how he handles a smug RW attacker. Similarly, on the super-lame Morning Joe show he gave an exemplar of how to deal with the vapid, stilted mainstream corporate tv show set in which the assembled punditry insists on engaging in crass superficiality, dishonesty and lack of dignity.

The humorists, from Twain to Lenny Bruce to George Carlin and Bill Hicks, and their progeny Brand, Dore and Camp, they keep me sane in times like these.

—

"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:

THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC"

- Kurt Vonnegut

Submitted by the_poorly_educated on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 11:28am

Bernie needs to start talking corporatocracy not oligarchy

@Mark from Queens I feel the same. I feel totally disconnected from the MSM and the regurgitators I deal with everyday. The population is being scammed. I think even Donald Trump was scammed and the Republicans are smart enough to let the left wing do the dirty work. Trump was totally duped. Now we're gonna have Pres. Pence and the most rightwing cabinet since rightwing was a word. It was a brilliant plan.

If I had only one wish and one wish only, it would probably be for the entire world to remove completely from their daily intake, all corporate mainstream news and advertisements. I've been saying this for years because I think it really has everything to do with why we can't evolve as a society. Where does one get his/her information from? How does it either cement or chip away at preconceptions that were either formed early in one's formative years by bigoted family members and/or friends, along with an education system designed to indelibly imprint concepts of American Exceptionalism and the falsehood of the American Dream via unbridled capitalism? The media and advertisements drive those concepts home with subliminal precision. Can you imagine what a different world it would be if people were reacting to one another, not from fear, suspicion and competitiveness, but with the universal language of empathy, compassion, and cooperation? When you boil it down it really comes to the degrees to which one has been propagandized by the news, that people take on the most confounding positions, often against their own interests and hypocritically against their self-professed beliefs. We all know these fundamental truths at our cores, but we're blinded by this extraneous garbage flying at us all day, every day, at warp speed. For those reasons I find myself lately also disconnecting from news almost entirely, save for being here and checking out the various stories and links from a place I trust. I'll still watch Jimmy Dore and Lee Camp, read Greenwald and Hedges, and check in with Democracy Now and TYT. But as you and Shaz and some others have been alluding to, I'm also much more of a mind to establish local community bonds and ties with people I've been working with and looking forward to establishing some ways to further that while also bringing new people into the fold. In my view, it's a great time for forward-thinking people like us to get out in front of this new-found interest protest, so that it's not entirely co-opted by the shitheads in the Dem Party under the ruse of some bullshit Resistance(TM). When I feel like completely checking out, but know that I can't because we're all the same here - compelled to stay engaged and fight, I often turn to check in with this guy. Russell Brand has shown to me an exceptionally evolved, brilliant person, who has such a cogent understanding of things, a gentle disposition, and filled with compassion. Plus, he's got a lovely British Cockney accent, is a rebel, a former drug addict, R&R spirit - all the things many of us dig! If you don't really know him, this is an amazing interview. It's with a sort of British Bill O'Reilly character. Check out how he handles a smug RW attacker. Similarly, on the super-lame Morning Joe show he gave an exemplar of how to deal with the vapid, stilted mainstream corporate tv show set in which the assembled punditry insists on engaging in crass superficiality, dishonesty and lack of dignity. The humorists, from Twain to Lenny Bruce to George Carlin and Bill Hicks, and their progeny Brand, Dore and Camp, they keep me sane in times like these.

—

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho

Submitted by lizzyh7 on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 12:19pm

Russell Brand, loved his book

@Mark from Queens "Revolution" and may need to go back and read that one again. Thanks for these videos and I too love his accent as well as his attitude!

If I had only one wish and one wish only, it would probably be for the entire world to remove completely from their daily intake, all corporate mainstream news and advertisements. I've been saying this for years because I think it really has everything to do with why we can't evolve as a society. Where does one get his/her information from? How does it either cement or chip away at preconceptions that were either formed early in one's formative years by bigoted family members and/or friends, along with an education system designed to indelibly imprint concepts of American Exceptionalism and the falsehood of the American Dream via unbridled capitalism? The media and advertisements drive those concepts home with subliminal precision. Can you imagine what a different world it would be if people were reacting to one another, not from fear, suspicion and competitiveness, but with the universal language of empathy, compassion, and cooperation? When you boil it down it really comes to the degrees to which one has been propagandized by the news, that people take on the most confounding positions, often against their own interests and hypocritically against their self-professed beliefs. We all know these fundamental truths at our cores, but we're blinded by this extraneous garbage flying at us all day, every day, at warp speed. For those reasons I find myself lately also disconnecting from news almost entirely, save for being here and checking out the various stories and links from a place I trust. I'll still watch Jimmy Dore and Lee Camp, read Greenwald and Hedges, and check in with Democracy Now and TYT. But as you and Shaz and some others have been alluding to, I'm also much more of a mind to establish local community bonds and ties with people I've been working with and looking forward to establishing some ways to further that while also bringing new people into the fold. In my view, it's a great time for forward-thinking people like us to get out in front of this new-found interest protest, so that it's not entirely co-opted by the shitheads in the Dem Party under the ruse of some bullshit Resistance(TM). When I feel like completely checking out, but know that I can't because we're all the same here - compelled to stay engaged and fight, I often turn to check in with this guy. Russell Brand has shown to me an exceptionally evolved, brilliant person, who has such a cogent understanding of things, a gentle disposition, and filled with compassion. Plus, he's got a lovely British Cockney accent, is a rebel, a former drug addict, R&R spirit - all the things many of us dig! If you don't really know him, this is an amazing interview. It's with a sort of British Bill O'Reilly character. Check out how he handles a smug RW attacker. Similarly, on the super-lame Morning Joe show he gave an exemplar of how to deal with the vapid, stilted mainstream corporate tv show set in which the assembled punditry insists on engaging in crass superficiality, dishonesty and lack of dignity. The humorists, from Twain to Lenny Bruce to George Carlin and Bill Hicks, and their progeny Brand, Dore and Camp, they keep me sane in times like these.

—

Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Sat, 02/18/2017 - 7:35pm

@Mark from Queens Hey dude, I'm on exactly

@Mark from Queens Hey dude, I'm on exactly the same page (again).

If I had only one wish and one wish only, it would probably be for the entire world to remove completely from their daily intake, all corporate mainstream news and advertisements. I've been saying this for years because I think it really has everything to do with why we can't evolve as a society. Where does one get his/her information from? How does it either cement or chip away at preconceptions that were either formed early in one's formative years by bigoted family members and/or friends, along with an education system designed to indelibly imprint concepts of American Exceptionalism and the falsehood of the American Dream via unbridled capitalism? The media and advertisements drive those concepts home with subliminal precision. Can you imagine what a different world it would be if people were reacting to one another, not from fear, suspicion and competitiveness, but with the universal language of empathy, compassion, and cooperation? When you boil it down it really comes to the degrees to which one has been propagandized by the news, that people take on the most confounding positions, often against their own interests and hypocritically against their self-professed beliefs. We all know these fundamental truths at our cores, but we're blinded by this extraneous garbage flying at us all day, every day, at warp speed. For those reasons I find myself lately also disconnecting from news almost entirely, save for being here and checking out the various stories and links from a place I trust. I'll still watch Jimmy Dore and Lee Camp, read Greenwald and Hedges, and check in with Democracy Now and TYT. But as you and Shaz and some others have been alluding to, I'm also much more of a mind to establish local community bonds and ties with people I've been working with and looking forward to establishing some ways to further that while also bringing new people into the fold. In my view, it's a great time for forward-thinking people like us to get out in front of this new-found interest protest, so that it's not entirely co-opted by the shitheads in the Dem Party under the ruse of some bullshit Resistance(TM). When I feel like completely checking out, but know that I can't because we're all the same here - compelled to stay engaged and fight, I often turn to check in with this guy. Russell Brand has shown to me an exceptionally evolved, brilliant person, who has such a cogent understanding of things, a gentle disposition, and filled with compassion. Plus, he's got a lovely British Cockney accent, is a rebel, a former drug addict, R&R spirit - all the things many of us dig! If you don't really know him, this is an amazing interview. It's with a sort of British Bill O'Reilly character. Check out how he handles a smug RW attacker. Similarly, on the super-lame Morning Joe show he gave an exemplar of how to deal with the vapid, stilted mainstream corporate tv show set in which the assembled punditry insists on engaging in crass superficiality, dishonesty and lack of dignity. The humorists, from Twain to Lenny Bruce to George Carlin and Bill Hicks, and their progeny Brand, Dore and Camp, they keep me sane in times like these.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by detroitmechworks on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 10:47am

I know many folks aren't big gamers...

But this topic of "People only believe what they're told" has come up in them recently, again, and again.

I can think of at least 7 games just last year that covered that exact issue. Some better than others, but at least the discussion is being had. Notice how quickly corporate media are quick to dismiss gamers as sexist, misogynist, basement dwelling virgins, who need to be silent and listen to what the censors say about their product and hobby.

I would think we've all seen this script before. *Coughberniebroscough*

—

I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

Submitted by Shahryar on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 1:29pm

interesting bashing of gamers

@detroitmechworks because, if you look at it, it's what they did to Scott Ritter, what they did to Julian Assange. They suggest that whoever they don't like is a pedophile woman-hater. They did it to Bernie as best they could, claiming "Bernie Bros" (Paul Krugman's favorite term for those against war and corporatism) were misogynists. And yet they resisted the idea of Anthony Weiner being a pervert since he's in the ruling class. They weren't interested in asking the question "what were Hillary's emails doing on a pervert's computer??"

The more they do it the more obvious they are. Hey, that reminds me. I saw an article last week that identified Snowden as "leaker and alleged spy". Wow.

Submitted by detroitmechworks on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 4:22pm

I find gamers are a bit like SF fans in makeup

@Shahryar Of course, this is my own personal view, but I find they tend to gravitate towards products and niches where they feel comfortable and accepted.

As a result, like any subculture, they have their own language and attitudes. However, politically, they are a pretty solid reflection of America, in that they don't tend towards any major party overwhelmingly. However, almost all of them loathe the corporate control which has overwhelmingly taken over the AAA market with its non-stop war-promoting games and constant nickel and diming players for the most basic of features which used to be standard in releases. Many are also free-speech advocates and are firm believers in "If you don't like it, give it a bad review and don't play it" and as a result are VERY protective of their preferred hobby's presentation in the MSM. (Not just video gamers, I hasten to add. I recall a murder in my home town which the local media tried to link to "Earthdawn" a rather underwhelming tabletop RPG. The reporters in question wrote several weeks worth of articles comparing themselves to Salman Rushdie for the "Persecution" they suffered for "Telling the truth about the links between games and violence.)

What bothers me is how many on the left were perfectly willing to believe that gamers were everything the media told them they were, while conveniently forgetting the past witch hunts against comics, Dungeons and Dragons, Magic the Gathering, Harry Potter, et al. The only difference was that it was professional feminists pushing the panic. Much like the alliance with the Religious Right against porn in the 80s, merely adding in the "Women are being attacked in HUGE numbers" lie made a moral panic somehow ok to run with.

Here endeth the rant.

—

I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

Submitted by Cant Stop the M... on Sat, 02/18/2017 - 7:37pm

@detroitmechworks Gamers, like

@detroitmechworks Gamers, like professors of the humanities and social sciences, understand how narratives are used to steer people. That's why we get hammered. We're the ones with the training and inclination to see what they're doing. Gotta take those people out, make sure the others don't listen to them.

—

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Submitted by CB on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 12:07pm

First Russia got their Yeltsin

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=48&v=cRysHHzLAmM]

Now America got their Trump.

Then Russia got their Putin
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnqx6PYLqoQ]

What's next for America? More irrational goofs? Are there no statesmen left in America?
I'm fucking embarrassed.

Submitted by dennis1958 on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 12:34pm

I'm watching Trump on TV

That looks like some kid of breakdown to me.

I didn't look through the comments here.
I'm pretty sure someone has already pointed this out.
I can't stop laughing, but I think it's that 'I just found a dead kitten' laughter. A laughter not based on humor.

—

With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

Submitted by enhydra lutris on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 12:51pm

It was once argued that scientific knowledge and understanding

progressses through death - when the discoverers, inventors, proponents and practitioners of the old theory are gone, the new orthodoxy finally replaces them. As mimimally conforting as that is, it is questionable, else why does generation after generation believe in the efficacy of prayer, in angels and a meddling and meddlesome god or gods?

One thing I have often wondered is the extent to which universal education in both informal and formal logic (followed by rudimentary semantics and scientific methodology) would help the advocates of reality and reason to slowly but surely drive home such an approach to life, thought, decision making and the like. We cannot expect to see such a thing occur in the schools, so we must begin to do it in conversations.

OTOH, trickery and emotion might be a much quicker road to a political revolution, at least in the short term.

—

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Submitted by Shahryar on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 1:34pm

they don't teach much logic, do they?

@enhydra lutris I love those logic problems. You know the ones....Betty and her husband have two cats. Mr. Johnson and his wife have no children. The Smith boy is too young to drive....etc. And you have to figure out who's who. Those are great They make you look at all the bits to find a whole picture.

Is that part of school now? I don't know. Having seen the lack of logical thinking in my own, slightly younger friends I have to believe no one is taught to think critically these days.

Submitted by ghotiphaze on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 2:19pm

My kids range

@Shahryar from 31 down to 22, grandkids are 10 and12, and I don't remember seeing those problems in any of their homework. They were common in my day.

—

There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

Submitted by enhydra lutris on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 3:11pm

Well, I found one impediment - as a college freshman, I used

@Shahryar
An Introduction to Logic by Irving M. Copi. The current, 14th edition, version goes for 127 new and 91 used on Amazon. Try providing that to all 1oth or 12th grade students. Hell, try providing it to all college freshmen.

—

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Submitted by Shahryar on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 1:39pm

This is heaven yet...abandon hope, all ye who enter here

sorry I'm feeling a little negative today. It is so simple. Enjoy life, don't be greedy. That's a friendly way of telling greedy people "do unto others etc."

by the way, unnamed poster at this site, that's love in action and IS the answer. But a large scale depression has settled over the country. A big cloud of hate. It seems (and this is my worry) that the collective sheepleness (or eloi-ness) is too large, gravity-wise, to be overcome.

Submitted by Mark from Queens on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 3:08pm

"...and you know that, for sure."

@Shahryar

Indeed, Shah. Here's a couple for ya:

Strolling Central Park, John.

So keep on playing those mind games together
Doing the ritual dance in the sun
Millions of mind guerrillas
Putting their soul power to the karmic wheel
Keep on playing those mind games forever
Raising the spirit of peace and love
(I want you to make love, not war
I know you've heard it before)

It is the answer, and of course also, the most difficult thing of all to do. Thing is, we all need inspiration to at least keep it in sight. Music and the arts derive their power from that, I believe.

Half of the Beatles, post-Fabs, took pretty seriously, I'd say, what they wished to project onto their massive pop audience and the larger world.

Inspiration. That's what it comes down to. Inspire one another, to get better.

—

"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:

THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC"

- Kurt Vonnegut

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 6:06pm

Inspiration

@Mark from Queens

Inspiration. That's what it comes down to. Inspire one another, to get better.

[video:https://youtu.be/GAIvo6QkOgc width:420 height:306]

"Inspiration, move me brightly
Light the song with sense and color
Hold away despair......"
-- Jerry Garcia/Robert Hunter

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by Shahryar on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 1:42pm

the meaning of life, as told by Duane Eddy

this, along with kissing one's wife and taking care of what you need to survive in the 21st century (as measured by people lost in the universe, looking for an anchor)

Submitted by native on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 3:11pm

A very astute analysis

of Trump's difficulties in dealing with the deep state, from Paul Craig Roberts. His conclusion: Trump is dead meat.

"The print and TV media, which serve as propagandists for the ruling military/security complex and Wall Street elites, make certain that Americans have nothing but bogus orchestrated information. Every household and person who turns on TV or reads a newspaper is programed to live in a false orchestrated reality that serves the tiny few who comprise the ruling Establishment.

"Trump challenged this Establishment without realizing that it is more powerful than a mere President of the United States.

"This is what has happened: During Obama’s second term, Russia and its president were demonized by the military/security complex and the neoconservatives using the presstitute media. The demonization has facilitated the ability of the controlled presstitute media, such as the New York Times, Washington Post, CNN, MSNBC, and the rest, to associate contact with Russia and articles questioning the orchestrated tensions between the US and Russia with suspicious activity, possibly even treason. Trump and his advisors were too inexperienced to realize that the consequence of Flynn’s dismissal was to validate this orchestrated association of the Trump presidency with Russian intelligence."

Roberts says (and I agree with him) that these are the words that doomed Trump when he declared war before he had his army assembled:

“There is nothing the political establishment will not do, and no lie they will not tell, to hold on to their prestige and power at your expense. The Washington establishment, and the financial and media corporations that fund it, exists for only one reason: to protect and enrich itself. This is a crossroads in the history of our civilization that will determine whether or not We The People reclaim control over our government. The political establishment that is trying everything to stop us, is the same group responsible for our disastrous trade deals, massive illegal immigration, and economic and foreign policies that have bled this country dry.
“The political establishment has brought about the destruction of our factories and our jobs, as they flee to Mexico, China and other countries throughout the world. It’s a global power structure that is responsible for the economic decisions that have robbed our working class, stripped our country of its wealth, and put that money into the pockets of a handful of large corporations and political entities.”

The Trump Presidency: RIP

—

native

Submitted by CB on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 4:42pm

Twain said “The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated."

@native
The 'Deep State' is not of one faction or of one mind. There is more to this structure than just the intelligence agencies (and even they have in the past proved to have deep internal splits). There are also financial, energy, military, private defense and corporate interests involved. The intelligence agencies are just the foot-soldiers.

I think what we are now witnessing is a shakeout among competing elements of the Deep State. A time to re-organize and restructure if you will. Obama did not do this to any significant extent at the beginning of his presidency. You will need to look at each and every person and their backgrounds that Trump has appointed to his cabinet to see where he is going.

of Trump's difficulties in dealing with the deep state, from Paul Craig Roberts. His conclusion: Trump is dead meat. "The print and TV media, which serve as propagandists for the ruling military/security complex and Wall Street elites, make certain that Americans have nothing but bogus orchestrated information. Every household and person who turns on TV or reads a newspaper is programed to live in a false orchestrated reality that serves the tiny few who comprise the ruling Establishment. "Trump challenged this Establishment without realizing that it is more powerful than a mere President of the United States. "This is what has happened: During Obama’s second term, Russia and its president were demonized by the military/security complex and the neoconservatives using the presstitute media. The demonization has facilitated the ability of the controlled presstitute media, such as the New York Times, Washington Post, CNN, MSNBC, and the rest, to associate contact with Russia and articles questioning the orchestrated tensions between the US and Russia with suspicious activity, possibly even treason. Trump and his advisors were too inexperienced to realize that the consequence of Flynn’s dismissal was to validate this orchestrated association of the Trump presidency with Russian intelligence." Roberts says (and I agree with him) that these are the words that doomed Trump when he declared war before he had his army assembled: “There is nothing the political establishment will not do, and no lie they will not tell, to hold on to their prestige and power at your expense. The Washington establishment, and the financial and media corporations that fund it, exists for only one reason: to protect and enrich itself. This is a crossroads in the history of our civilization that will determine whether or not We The People reclaim control over our government. The political establishment that is trying everything to stop us, is the same group responsible for our disastrous trade deals, massive illegal immigration, and economic and foreign policies that have bled this country dry. “The political establishment has brought about the destruction of our factories and our jobs, as they flee to Mexico, China and other countries throughout the world. It’s a global power structure that is responsible for the economic decisions that have robbed our working class, stripped our country of its wealth, and put that money into the pockets of a handful of large corporations and political entities.” The Trump Presidency: RIP

Submitted by native on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 6:00pm

So you think those two paragraphs

@CB

by Trump were mainly just campaign talk? That could well be, but there's certainly been a concerted effort to stop him from even trying to reach detente with Russia. I've seen no evidence of a pushback to this effort from anyone in any of the 16 intelligence agencies. And none from any of the msm either. If the Deep State is as factionalized as you say, then how can we explain the unanimity of its opposition to Trump's Russian overtures?

—

native

Submitted by CB on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 8:03pm

Have you seen the latest Trump presser?

@native
Looks like Trump is set to clean house in the intelligence agencies.
https://www.rt.com/usa/377604-trump-news-conference-orlando/

‘Real leaks, fake news’: Trump spars with hostile media in first solo press conference

“The whole Russia thing, that’s a ruse. It would be great if we could get along with Russia.”

“The leaks are real, the news is fake.”

On the resignation of Michael Flynn as national security advisor on Monday, “I was not happy with the way” Flynn informed Vice President Mike Pence on his talks with Russian diplomats, Trump said, but the talks themselves were not problematic. Rather, it was the people who leaked to the press that were the issue.

They “should be ashamed of themselves,” Trump said, calling the leaks an “illegal process.”

Flynn spoke with 30 countries, not just Russia. “He was just doing his job.” But he didn’t tell Pence about that properly, Trump explained.

“Much of the media in Washington, DC, along with New York and Los Angeles, speaks not for the people but for the special interests, who benefit from the obviously broken system,” Trump said, blasting the media whose "level of dishonesty is out of control."

Gotta admit Trump has a point there.

Purge: Trump Prepares Major Overhaul of Intelligence Apparatus
...
On Thursday, Trump vowed to punish those leaking classified information to the press, including the details about phone calls between former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn and the Russian ambassador.

"We're going to find the leakers and they're going to pay a big price," Trump told reporters.
...
"I've actually called the Justice Department to look into the leaks, those criminal leaks," Trump stated. "I think, you will see it stopping because now we have our people in."

Trump now has one hell of a lot of corporatists and big money behind him that used to back Hillary. They could care less about the politics as long as the government serves their needs. The spooks are going to have to get with the new program or their days are numbered.

I'll give you 10 attaboys to one I'm correct in my assessment. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Submitted by janis b on Thu, 02/16/2017 - 8:34pm

Most of TV and radio generate only drama,

and people in general seem to thrive on the heat that drama and outrage present. Sometimes I think the only purpose it serves is to liberate the deep-seated pain and anger that is within many; which could be a good thing if something constructive were generated by it. If the purpose of the news were to question and inform we’d all be learning and more engaged with how we see things, but few take the time for reflection, which we all need to process things sanely rather than prematurely or stupidly. But too many, otherwise thinking people, find it easier to use all the outrage and drama on TV as a substitute for finding their own individual thoughts.

https://youtu.be/pYvdTdhW2hg?list=PLNe0lktuHfEp0NprGiWIx2vY6mv3qYkCh