The Name of this Site is caucus99percent

First of all, I want to emphasize this comment made yesterday:

What I do continue to see though is what I term "broad brush insults". On both sides. Make a general statement about how bad this or that is and how stupid people are for doing this or that, while the generalized group targeted in the broad brush insult attack also include members of this site. On both sides. Without a clear distinction of intent those type of insults are easily transposed to any individual reading them. It's subtle and it hurts. It leads to division and is the antithesis of this site's premise.

https://caucus99percent.com/comment/543726#comment-543726

I would hope folks keep this in mind as they pen their rants.


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"Oh my, JtC how can you allow your site to be overrun by anti-vaxxers?!!!??"

For one thing I hate the term "anti-vaxxers". I am willing to bet that the vast majority of so called "anti-vaxxers" have ALL of their childhood and adult vaccinations, they are simply anti-this vaxx. Broad brushing the anti-vaxxer moniker is another form of "othering", lots of that going around, don't you agree?

The name of this site is caucus99percent.

This country has been "othered" into two camps, the vaxxed and unvaxxed, as if I need to tell you all that. The propaganda is thick, on both sides of the issue. It seems that dichotomy isn't lost upon c99 as well. Let me wax philosophically on that for a moment if you will.

One camp has the whole world and the vast Mighty Wurlitzer at its disposal. Everywhere you go and every form of media voices this camp's position. It is incessant and ubiquitous. You can't escape it. It censors all outside of its purview.

The other camp is threatened, ostracized, banned, cajoled, humiliated, censored, on and on, insert your own descriptors here _____. Guess where these folks have to go to voice their opinions. Is it any wonder that this camp gravitates to the very few sites that will allow them to be heard?

This site has always championed the voiceless and will remain that way until the day I die or it is taken down and "othered" by said Wurlitzer.

To that end, c99 will continue to stand upon its principles, to the bitter end. Like it or not, that is what this site is and always will be about. A voice for the 99 percent, especially when there are strong forces to the contrary.

I'll leave you with a quote from another essay here at the 99:

Covid has proven to be the most valuable tool in the arsenal of those that wish to divide us.

https://caucus99percent.com/content/what-c99

The name of this site is caucus99percent. There is room here for all 99percenters.

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Lookout's picture

For this site and your attitude. As I wrote in a comment today COVID isn't an either or situation...it is all things on the table. TPTB have scared the hell out of people, and scared people don't always act rationally. It is not one case fits all in this situation...we are individuals with different health histories who must wander through the misinformation minefield before us.

Again you are much appreciated and so is the entire community in my book.

Wow, I waded through a quick scan of the last link above...whatta shitshow. All the issues...lock downs, vax passports, AM I Gonna DIE? anxiety permeates that thread.

Interesting times in which we live. Wish everyone the best of health and happiness!

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23 users have voted.

“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Dawn's Meta's picture

firm statement of intention.

I find that when I am free to write, thoughts flow well, and the writing is better. When I'm worried what people, especially if they are some I admire, are positioned strongly against an idea I might have, then my writing is stilted and unbeautiful.

Thanks for continuing to knock down the barriers to writers trying to sort their own feelings out and to discern the path in the crooked way.

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17 users have voted.

A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit. Allegedly Greek, but more possibly fairly modern quote.

Consider helping by donating using the button in the upper left hand corner. Thank you.

is not immediately driven flush by the majority. There may be others forums that welcome differing opinions, the only proviso here being that debate needs to be respectful of the person behind each and every post and comment. This is not always easy and the community is not perfect in following this precept, but it is largely successful to a degree I have yet to find elsewhere. Nor do I even feel the need to look elsewhere.

Thank you JtC for holding true to the guiding principles and for your patience with us when we seem to forget what makes this place so unique. A diversity of opinions is essential, otherwise we’re just another group of like minded idiots. I’d rather continue my idiocy, with my very own ideas on as many subjects as possible, with friends who will provide more grist for the mill.

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19 users have voted.

“If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking” - Gen. George S. Patton

“Without a diversity of opinions, the discovery of truth is impossible.” - Alexander von Humboldt

Of course we should stand up for the 99%.
But I don't believe pro-vax=1%; anti-vax=99%.

Just so that my attitude and definitions are clear:
The costs of the covid lockdowns are far too high
The #1 risk factor for dying of COVID: Poverty

Selection_001_52.png

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5 users have voted.

@gjohnsit
you're entitled to your opinion.

The last paragraph in this meta essay describes my intention. There is plenty of room at c99 for all 99 percenters to voice their opinions. My intention was not to pigeonhole the class dichotomy but to give voice to the voiceless. That is the premise of this whole post. I thought you would have picked up on that, then again I wasn't clear and I can see where it could be interpreted differently.

The name of this site is caucus99percent. There is room here for all 99percenters.

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19 users have voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@gjohnsit

He said the 99% has been divided into camps: pro-vax and anti-vax. Neither side is "the 1%." It just suits the 1% to create those sides, giving one side a great deal of resources and the other just enough resources to make sure it continues to be a threat.

It's easy to do when you have a 24/7 media cartel willing to do your bidding. To say nothing of the country's politicians, also willing to do your bidding.

Under Bushco, the brand established with Reagan burned out. Or the American people burned out on it. It will take considerable work to rebuild that brand's credibility. So the 1% flipped American politics, using the so-called "left" as the dominant faction that works for and defends the priorities of the rich, while keeping the "populist right" around to be a convenient target for hatred and blame. The vax/anti vax divide is the most recent iteration of that framework--and a really good one, too. It activates people's survival instinct, which historically leads to people demanding authoritarianism and blood.

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12 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

"One camp has the whole world and the vast Mighty Wurlitzer at its disposal. Everywhere you go and every form of media voices this camp's position. It is incessant and ubiquitous. You can't escape it. It censors all outside of its purview.

The other camp is threatened, ostracized, banned, cajoled, humiliated, censored, on and on, insert your own descriptors here _____. Guess where these folks have to go to voice their opinions. Is it any wonder that this camp gravitates to the very few sites that will allow them to be heard?"

In other words, people who support the vaccines and argue that they are providing a vast majority of people with a safe preventative to falling very sick have the big powers of Pharma and government and whatever behind them, so their view is suspect and doesn't need supporting here. On the other hand, the vaccine suspicious Ivermectin promoting camp has been treated badly and don't have those powers on their side, so they need a boost on sites like this. But what if what the downtrodden camp is presenting is .... well... I know you don't like this, but say.. lacking in solid science? Should this site or any other site fall into just saying nothing for the sake of the idea that speech would be "suppressed" if challenged? One of my problems with Daily Kos is that opinions were simply blocked or banned. I don't want to ever see that here. But I also don't want to feel like I have to tip-toe around certain opinions or skip certain OPs because my challenges might upset some feelings. I've done that a couple of times, just skipped any OPs on the topic of Covid because I know it will be just a gish gallop fest of videos, links and claims etc. I even decided to try posting my own gish gallops just to see if people would notice how pervasive it is. It didn't work, but I sure upset Mimi! (smile).

When I saw an OP with the word "Team Vaxx" in the title, and it was not challenged (well I did try to get the author to explain the meaning of the term), I sensed a tilting of site sympathies in a certain direction.

Every time someone has presented links, videos etc. about Ivermectin, I have looked at them and considered them with the thought that maybe I need to look at things with a new view and keep an open mind. So far, however, the training I received when I worked in a scientific field (not virology) in terms of what to look for as being solid science has kept me unable to "get on board" so to speak. That is why I complimented innatimm for presenting information on what could become a balancing of the controversy. As soon as I did, I was informed that what he/she presented was not up to some sort of standard the the Ivermectin supporters would accept. So back to square one and certainly no indication that there is any spot for compromise.

I really don't know what the solution is here, JtC and I certainly don't envy your position in all of this. I have started, however, to see complaining that presenting information which counters the Ivermectin supporters views is somehow a "personal" insult even when absolutely no personal slamming has occurred. And that concerns me. People are making all kinds of statements that have no backing at all to them (like the vaccines might cause cancer) and those kinds of statements must be challenged without hesitation.

If this site is going to continue to be a location for the free expression of ideas, opinions, POVs etc. especially for the "voiceless", please keep in mind that giving too much weight to any camp out of sympathy or whatever may have the effect of creating a new set of voiceless.

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6 users have voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@Fishtroller 02
it's factual, please tell me where I'm wrong. How do I highlight that dichotomy without discussing the cause of the division?

"One camp has the whole world and the vast Mighty Wurlitzer at its disposal. Everywhere you go and every form of media voices this camp's position. It is incessant and ubiquitous. You can't escape it. It censors all outside of its purview.

The other camp is threatened, ostracized, banned, cajoled, humiliated, censored, on and on, insert your own descriptors here _____. Guess where these folks have to go to voice their opinions. Is it any wonder that this camp gravitates to the very few sites that will allow them to be heard?"

The balance of the content is up to the writers/commentors. The only weight I have is what gets promoted to the front page, and with that I try to be equitable. In other words, get to writing. Biggrin

If this site is going to continue to be a location for the free expression of ideas, opinions, POVs etc. especially for the "voiceless", please keep in mind that giving too much weight to any camp out of sympathy or whatever may have the effect of creating a new set of voiceless.

Thanks for your input.

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13 users have voted.

@JtC

Here's why. You put the people like me who support the vaccines and doubt the Ivermectin claims under the category of enjoying the backing of the "Wide Wulitzer". I assume that means government (Fauci etc.) and Big Drug/Pharma and whatever else that is mainstream acceptable. But I really can't stand Fauci, I don't trust Big Drug/Pharma and I am a harsh critic of both sides/parties of our government. So I don't fit your camp description. Am I in the 99% or the 1%?

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4 users have voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

snoopydawg's picture

@Fishtroller 02

or in my view big pharma, the CDC, FDA have the social media owners behind them and are censoring any news that doesn’t fit with what the Wurlitzer is saying. People such as Malone and others that are advocating for treatments besides just the vaccines or are even questioning the facts we’re being told get banned from the sites or have their videos taken down even when they post something that goes against what the Wurlitzer says even when it’s something that the Wurlitzer just said and they are quoting it. Rand Paul and some doctors that testified to congress have had their videos removed from YouTube because they went against what the Wurlitzer was saying. It’s absolutely mind boggling to see it happening over and over.

Plus we are seeing long term statements or known knowledge being changed to fit the current narrative. CB posted an article about this graphic at the end of my essay if you haven’t seen it.

625A038C-4C4C-41AC-90D1-4F73FBC684B7.jpeg

Plus they have changed what immunity to diseases mean for Covid. It’s been well known forever that people who got childhood diseases had immunity to them and didn’t need to get vaccinated, but now people who have gotten Covid only have immunity for a few months and should get vaccinated on top of it. Many recovered people have tested their antibodies and they are still quite high. I realize that science does change when new facts become available, but that’s not what is happening now and it’s causing lots of distrust in the people telling us that they are following the science. Biden decided to have people take another vaccine before the science said they should. Politicians shouldn’t be making policies, doctors and scientists should.

I believe that the vaccines do offer some protection. It’s just that they aren’t offering what most of us were led to believe about them. Biden stated unequivocally that if you got vaccinated then there would be no way you would get sick. And he said that if you are then you don’t have to wear masks anymore. Neither turned out to be true. And even after some doctors have questions about people being injured by the vaccines we are still being told that they are perfectly safe and that’s not true either. But the Wurlitzer is censoring anyone that says they are not. It’s not just from looking at VAERS, but a news site asked for stories about people who got the Rona and instead got flooded with stories about people who took the vaccines and got injured or died from them. This has happened more than once.

I hope you don’t see this as argumentative. I’m just describing what he means by the power behind the people in government making decisions. (Whoo it took me 4 times to spell this right)


Truth doesn’t mind being questioned.

A lie doesn’t like being challenged.

About your sigline. It could be said that without having the right to disagree then freedom of speech does not exist

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13 users have voted.

In a free country civil liberties are not only for certain groups.
So this is how liberty dies . . . with thunderous applause.
The donor class doesn’t want it, and Americans elect the bribed. So suck it up.

@snoopydawg

to disagree, and I have no idea where you would get that impression from. If I could put all this into a short sentence I would tell you what I told JtC. This whole Covid thing is about saving lives with SCIENCE. And as much as I loathe Big Pharma, Anthony Fauci, just about all of our government and the big powers in our world, seen and unseen, the science is the key and the vaccines are holding their own so far. We are not scientists, and even many scientists don't act like scientists when their focus is turned to other things to promote. So, the vaccines have done the science. And the vaccines are keeping people from dying from Covid. Those two things can be proven.

Of course there will be changes, and people will get side effects, etc. etc. That is true with EVERY medication and vaccine ever made. Lots of people can have opinions about science, but to claim that opinions ARE science... well there is where we get off track.

The vaccines were developed when the only major form of Covid was the alpha variant. So of course things that were claimed about them were changed. That happens a lot in science. You can post as many arguments you want about the vaccines and Ivermectin or whatever, but I have learned the hard way over many weeks that if I reply with a counter to that information, it is dismissed, not read, not responded to etc.etc. even if it is good science or even proof that the source used is dubious.

And I also have to say that I totally disagree with your claim that discussions and articles and arguments about vaccines vs. Ivermectin are being hidden from the general public. We wouldn't have so many millions of requests for IVM prescriptions if that information was being censored. The FLCCC is everywhere, and now that they are so visible, people are discovering that the group is highly flawed and not representing science, especially when they claim that Ivermectin could stop the Covid in one month. You can only claim censorship for so long.... until you aren't being censored and have to finally do the real work of rigorous clinical trials and all the rest.

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1 user has voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

snoopydawg's picture

@Fishtroller 02

but to the mighty Wurlitzer that is doing censorship.

This whole Covid thing is about saving lives with SCIENCE.

We will have to disagree on that. Lives have never been important to the parasite class in this country.

As for the rest I you have misunderstood what I said. I’m bowing out because we’re just going in pointless circles. No offense meant.

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13 users have voted.

In a free country civil liberties are not only for certain groups.
So this is how liberty dies . . . with thunderous applause.
The donor class doesn’t want it, and Americans elect the bribed. So suck it up.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Fishtroller 02

funded the building of, and controls the tunes played on, the "Wide Wurlitzer." The "Wide Wurlitzer" consists of politics and the media. IMO, anyway.

If you have to ask, you're probably in the 99%. That designation doesn't come from your advocating for one policy or another. It comes from the fact that you don't have the power to affect either the policy decisions that get made or the debates that get airtime. You can root for one team or another, just like when people watch the NFL. Some teams have considerably more resources than others and amount to being the League's special favorites. That doesn't mean that any of the teams are owned by anyone outside the 1%. Neither does it mean that any of the fans have any control over anything except which side they cheer for.

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9 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Fishtroller 02 .
.

Final note, based on past experience.

Yes the published data on vaccine results show that the treatments are living up to their only billing -- they reduce the symptoms for people who catch the virus. That is a great accomplishment, and if the corporate overlords would be honest, that would be an excellent component of an overall health strategy.

Instead, the lie goes on -- anybody who does not get vaccinated is a social criminal threatening the lives of our fellow citizens. That is nonsense. Furthermore, that nonsensical rhetoric has no chance of persuading the vaccine "reluctant" to repent and get the jabs. Quite the contrary, this constant insulting of the freedumb loving covidiots is pretty well guaranteed to make most of them dig their heels in much deeper.

Which, I suggest, is the real agenda at work. More and more and more ways to divide and conquer. Or, I should say keep divided and keep under control. Arguing about whether to let Big Brother stick you with a needle is the goal -- not to make you agree to be stuck with a needle.

.

I ignored your demand that I label myself. Your suggestion that I call myself, Team Anti-Vaxx, is not accurate.

This idea that there is debate between those who support vaccination and those who oppose it does not apply to anything I was trying to accomplish on that thread. The policy question is whether THIS treatment should be mandatory.

I am an Anti Mandator For This Particular "Vaccine."

.
My topic is always about the official rhetoric and how it is bullshit. When two sides are arguing, and one side makes questionable arguments while the other side's retort is, "Shut Up!" I know which side I am going to take if push comes to shove.

..

Regarding the OP's admonition against insulting rhetoric, I of course have no argument against you. In the first place, it is your board. Besides that I understand what you are doing and I respect it. I often write obliquely and although many people think I'm not funny at all, I often put satirical passages in my posts which are easy in misinterpret.

If some of my klinkers look like mean spiritied insults, I have no ego about deleting shit. I am glad you keep the lights on at this board.

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13 users have voted.

I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Fishtroller 02

First--I and JtC and, I bet, most of the founders of the site, are implacably in favor of all sides having their say.

Second--IMO, neither "side" actually has the power. As I said above, both sides are being manipulated by, and serving the interests of, the ruling elite. It suits their aims to have an asymmetrical struggle over this issue, so they've given lots of media support and political resources to the pro-vax position and a significant, but nowhere near as large, amount of media support and political resources to the anti-vax position.

I think they're hoping to foment actual violence. They've succeeded on the right-wing side--that ideology does attract some people who are pretty ready to reach for their guns.

I don't agree with him on everything, but I find Ed Murrow to be helpful on the question of censorship:

I believed 20 years ago and I believe today that mature Americans can engage in conversation and controversy, the clash of ideas, with Communists anywhere in the world without becoming contaminated or converted. I believe that our faith, our conviction, our determination are stronger than theirs, and that we can compete -- and successfully, not only in the area of bombs but in the area of ideas.

--Ed Murrow

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9 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cassiodorus's picture

JtC: "This site has always championed the voiceless and will remain that way until the day I die..."

Media Matters for America:

"60% of Fox News’ Vaccine Reports This Summer Included Anti-Vax Claims, Study Finds"

Most recently:

"Fox host calls for “civil disobedience” over vaccine and testing requirements"

Should I add:

Nearly all Fox staffers vaccinated for Covid even as hosts cast doubt on vaccine

Yep, totally voiceless. Fer sher.

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3 users have voted.

"Freedom is always, and exclusively, freedom for the one who thinks differently.” -- Rosa Luxemburg

@Cassiodorus

The other camp is threatened, ostracized, banned, cajoled, humiliated, censored, on and on, insert your own descriptors here _____. Guess where these folks have to go to voice their opinions. Is it any wonder that this camp gravitates to the very few sites that will allow them to be heard?

Fox News versus every other government and media outlet across the globe, yeah that's a good comparison.

Riddle me this: how many left leaning sites allow covid discussion, from both sides of the issue? Yep, I'll stick with voiceless.

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16 users have voted.

@JtC
Fox, that's who.

This is why I disagree with your definition of the 99%

Fox News versus every other government and media outlet across the globe, yeah that's a good comparison.

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3 users have voted.
Cassiodorus's picture

@gjohnsit @gjohnsit It's "rebellion" for JtC if we choose the minority faction of billionaires. In other words, it's pseudo-rebellion, and so basically it's a distraction.

Climate-change-amplified fires wiped out a very large portion of California's forests this summer, all the way up to yesterday's rains, after 110+-degree temperatures wiped out a town in, well, British Columbia at the end of, you know, June of this year. Last year the climate change fun wiped out my community, so I know it's real. If you were saved from the climate change fun this year, well, maybe we'll see you in a couple of decades when it's far worse, if we don't see you in the ICU first. Of course, how would "rebellion" against climate change non-policy be any fun in our present-day Brave New World if there was no Fox News host calling for civil disobedience in its cause?

Sheesh.

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3 users have voted.

"Freedom is always, and exclusively, freedom for the one who thinks differently.” -- Rosa Luxemburg

@Cassiodorus
continue to misrepresent this post have at it.

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11 users have voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@gjohnsit

are behind *both* camps, you're fundamentally in error.

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11 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
It's why I've been saying this whole vaccine debate is a waste of time.

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0 users have voted.
Cassiodorus's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal If being "anti-vaxx" is the "position" of the minority faction of billionaires, then being "pro-vaxx" is the "position" of the majority faction of billionaires. You may have read my most recent diary. I never said my position was that of any type of rebellion or revolt, though here and there I may have suggested that there are some positions on some issues somewhere in the world that might qualify.

Nowhere in the world does any of this nonsense matter so deeply as it does in the United States. (This is not an original observation: Saagar Enjeti made it in one of his broadcasts with Krystal Ball.) That ought to raise a red flag with someone.

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2 users have voted.

"Freedom is always, and exclusively, freedom for the one who thinks differently.” -- Rosa Luxemburg

said here a few days ago upon returning after a long break: having seen what's happening out there in the Big Tech social platform world re discussions on Covid and the very heavy-handed censorship by the site owners and their proxies, driven by their formal agreements with federal public health agencies and at least one Covid vax maker, this site by comparison is a refreshing change of pace in the direction of content Free Speech, with relatively light moderation mainly for tone not content.

We all probably differ on what concerns us most, and the site owner here has his concerns, but for me far and away the issue of free speech and censorship are of the highest priority. Things are getting out of hand out there in the social platform world, where most reside, our modern commons being closely monitored and tightly controlled for speech content by a handful of owners and their faceless minions who seem to enjoy the process of receiving snitch complaints, removing posts and banning people. Fundamental constitutional rights being suppressed. But not here thankfully.

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18 users have voted.

@wokkamile

issue, but I see far more of that going on with books and historical sites and figures than I see with pro/anti vaxxer conversations.

Also, what I am seeing on this site is what I would call an overbalance on the topic of Covid and the promotion of Ivermectin. Others might not feel that way, but I can't think of any other topic that has been front and center so many times within a short period of time as this one, and with an intent to basically sell people on taking a prescription drug. It seems kind of weird to me in light of the main thrust of opinion pieces that drew me to this site in the first place.

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3 users have voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@Fishtroller 02 on censorship by the MSM in certain historical areas. But history is usually just a tiny slice of the public discussion at any time, engaged in by relatively few, and doesn't have the massive social control implications that the current establishment display of censorship entails. Not even close.

As for this site being "overbalanced" in favor of my current favorite drug IVM, I don't think it's realistic to think any site can be perfectly balanced nor does it set out to seek such nice symmetry. The point is to allow open discussion from both sides on a complicated issue where there can be honest disagreements. That's what a good site should seek to do.

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10 users have voted.
ggersh's picture

For one thing I hate the term "anti-vaxxers". I am willing to bet that the vast majority of so called "anti-vaxxers" have ALL of their childhood and adult vaccinations, they are simply anti-this vaxx. Broad brushing the anti-vaxxer moniker is another form of "othering", lots of that going around, don't you agree?

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15 users have voted.

The correct response to someone who supports going to war if China attacks Taiwan is “Are you enlisted?”

The correct response when they inevitably answer “no” is “Then shut the fuck up.”

Caitlin

@ggersh
This is an honest question. I just want the info.

At what point is the dividing line between anti-this vaxx and anti-vaxx too small to be meaningful?
I'm looking for something measurable.

This isn't a rhetorical question, because there are already plenty of anti-vaxx people in your camp.
Thanks in advance.

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4 users have voted.
ggersh's picture

@gjohnsit and I have taken the J&J vaccine for Covid, I've taken the Shingles, Pneumonia vaccines
and all the childhood vaccines when growing up, so I'm not anti vaxx on what are vaccines that have gone through a rigorous process to get approved.

The vaccines for Covid didn't go through any such process, they all got "emergency approval"
and have been approved by "Operation WarpSpeed" and that brings me such relief in knowing what usually takes 20-30 years to happen was given Warp Speed priority for this disease.

Also what's seldom talked about here is how they treat those that have Covid, from what I've heard from numerous sources is the standard procedure of using Remdivisir is useless, it does nothing to help you at $3250 a dose. So the point being is why haven't we heard from the govt as to how to go about taking care of yourself, you have to question why the govt has an agenda, otherwise you are left to the mercy of a govt that allows/glorifies killing
as an everyday natural occurrence.

Hopefully that answers your question

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12 users have voted.

The correct response to someone who supports going to war if China attacks Taiwan is “Are you enlisted?”

The correct response when they inevitably answer “no” is “Then shut the fuck up.”

Caitlin

@ggersh

Also what's seldom talked about here is how they treat those that have Covid

It's seldom talked about anywhere in the U.S.
Because the moment that you bring it up, someone will ask "What about people with cancer? Heart disease?"

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3 users have voted.
ggersh's picture

@gjohnsit Ivermectin, Remdisevir, and other drugs that seem to both work and not for treatment of Covid. Also at one point the Doc states that corporate Walgreens, Rite Aid and others are not allowing Ivermectin scripts written by Doctors to be filled, why is that? We're being fucked with is why.

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9 users have voted.

The correct response to someone who supports going to war if China attacks Taiwan is “Are you enlisted?”

The correct response when they inevitably answer “no” is “Then shut the fuck up.”

Caitlin

@ggersh
The time we spend talking about Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine is time directly subtracted from talking about M4A.

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1 user has voted.
Raggedy Ann's picture

@gjohnsit

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3 users have voted.

"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

@gjohnsit

https://www.reddit.com/r/WayOfTheBern/comments/pri064/my_partners_altern...

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0 users have voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@gjohnsit asked a similar question

At what point is the dividing line between anti-this vaxx and anti-vaxx too small to be meaningful?

wrt the Russiagate debate. Many in the anti-Russiagate camp were pro-Trump. But there was a small and vocal slice of the independent, critical=thinking left who were also anti-Russiagate, and most were anti-Trump, an important distinction. I think there were many in the latter camp at this site, including me.

(Funny thing: when I joined a Progressives group on another site and expressed these anti-R-gate views, I was alone, and often suspected of being a covert Trumpster, including being reported by several members to the site's admins for misrepresenting my political views.)

There is indeed a significant difference or dividing line between those who reflexively reject vaxxes or who have historical reasons for doing so (many in the Black community) and those of us who aren't reflexively anti-v but who consider each one on its merits or lack thereof.

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7 users have voted.
yellopig's picture

@ggersh !

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7 users have voted.

“We may not be able to change the system, but we can make the system irrelevant in our lives and in the lives of those around us.”—John Beckett

Raggedy Ann's picture

Your voice is always needed in these parts when we, the participators, start to get off balance.

The thing is, people need to be respected for their decisions, especially when there is disagreement. People have reasons for their decisions, which they do not have to disclose if they so choose. Those that disagree with the decision need to respect that person instead of becoming belligerent.

People also need to stop hiding behind their keyboards while spewing such disrespect.

Thank you for continuing to work on keeping the balance here. Pleasantry

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10 users have voted.

"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

Pluto's Republic's picture

For those who have lost all perspective:

The human race is not going to be done in by this virus. Good god, y'all!

Think!

China is a largely vaccinated nation — with more than a dozen generally effective vaccines in use that are as good as any in the world. The Chinese tend to comply (for the sake of society), yet they have an unvaccinated population. (No, the unvaccinated are not being dragged from their homes and vaccinated at gunpoint. And they are not being sanctioned to death like a nation that practices Communist economics would be.)

The unvaccinated are not an earth-shattering issue in China because China has a functioning Public Health Care system that keeps people safe. Eventually the unvaccinated will show up in a contact exposure search, or they will show up at a clinic. They will either be vaccinated or encouraged to self isolate until the pandemic ends. They will receive the support they need to stay at home.

However, China is still fighting outbreaks all the time, including new variants. And every time they do, they win and suppress the virus. They remove it completely from a region no matter how widely it has spread.

China doesn't have any secret power. They don't have better medicines. All they have that is different from us is 'zero tolerance' for the virus. So they expend a lot of effort when the virus shows up. And they refuse to allow anyone to be killed by the virus. Of course, people still die, but the Chinese fight hard for every life. They've deployed their highly-educated military in this fight to staff up public health, wherever they are needed. They also provide advanced health-care guidance to the nations they interact with.

Every day China proves that humans are going to defeat this virus, even if they don't have special weapons. They can stop the virus cold, any time they want to. Scientists in every country are getting closer and closer to wiping it out.

In the past, we have used vaccines to fight some of these pathogens. We couldn't find a vaccine for Ebola, so we had to isolate it for now. But life goes on.

I'm not going to talk about the battles that humans are probably going to lose.

But this isn't one of them.

Even our own nationalized propaganda and gaslit cover-ups — as horrendous as they are — will ultimately be eclipsed by mature thinking and the persistence of reality. Even with all the destructive mistakes the US makes — the absence of real public health care in the United States, the greedy, harmful actions of the corrupted pharmaceutical industry, and the tragic policies of predatory and authoritarian capitalism that undermines the well being of the People — humans are still going to beat this virus into submission.

The only reason this is a divisive political issue rather than a humanitarian campaign that welcomes all cultures and views is because the US culture really is that primitive and unevolved. The morally flawed government, which the American People fund, has a powerful political cult at its core that seeks to use the virus, SARS-CoV-2, to trigger World War III against China, their perceived economic competitor. In their derangement, this political cult believes that a precision nuclear aggression used against China and its global outreach will catapult the US into the position of Supreme Global Dictator. They see themselves as the sole representative of the multinational corporations and of the wealthiest oligarch-investors of the 20th and 21st centuries. They believe their sociopathic power is the will of their Christian god, who defends their inhumane depravity as a theological necessity.

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18 users have voted.

Add some perspective to your news. Read People's Daily — Feel the difference in your mind!

Lookout's picture

@Pluto's Republic

The only reason this is an issue instead of a campaign is because we really are that dumb and unenlightened.

ill-informed. How can anyone make reasonable decisions with incorrect information?

The MSM megaphone has yelled so loudly that people can no longer hear. About war, COVID, our economy, and on and on.

That why I value you and the rest of this community. We need one another to manage this minefield of misinformation. Thanks for your help!

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16 users have voted.

“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

CB's picture

@Pluto's Republic @Pluto's Republic
are traditional inactivated virus vaccines.

BIBP COVID-19 was developed by Sinopharm's Beijing Institute of Biological Products which is controlled by the Government of China.

CoronaVac was developed by the Chinese company Sinovac Biotech.

Due to the technology used in these vaccines, there has been widespread acceptance in China. To date China has administered a total of 2.166 billion doses of COVID-19 vaccines as of Sept 16 for a population of 1.446 billion. They may consider booster shots if circumstances warrant. To date there have been 123,904 confirmed cases and 5,688 deaths. Source: World Health Organization

I might add: They use Chinese Traditional Medicine with a national participation rate of over 90% in their COVID cases.

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10 users have voted.

the pushback on this piece is revealing.

I did not realize that my concept of giving voice to the voiceless would ruffle so many feathers.

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14 users have voted.
Lookout's picture

@JtC

From my view the system has been captured and many people along with it. The red pill, blue pill mentality is pervasive and promoted by the heightened corporate propaganda pursuing an intellectual eye for an eye until everyone is blind.

That makes the site ever more valuable as we go forward cause as they say around here, "it ain't gonna get better, cuz".

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17 users have voted.

“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

@JtC
...and I am still a fan of this site. However, I think I might have an idea as to why this topic
might be different in terms of giving voice to the voiceless. I think just about everyone here agrees with that concept of allowing free opinion and discussion. The difference is that this topic involves .....drum roll...SCIENCE. Science is not really a matter of opinion, although I remember creationists at lectures about the Big Bang thinking that it is. I know that much of science has been co-opted by money and other less than scientific interests, but when it comes to such a large public health issue, the focus is on saving lives, period. We don't have that totally yet with Covid, and frankly we might never get it. Like it or not, the vaccines have a lot of science behind them. Peer reviewed and thorough science. The alternative proposals, like it or not, do not. At least not yet. So what we have here is a lot of science being discussed by non-scientists and that is where the train goes off the track, sometimes a bit, sometimes a lot.

And while we are all mired down in the ins and outs about our opinions about the science, in the real world a man who had a heart attack in Louisville could not be given attention from any of the KY hospitals because the ICU's are full of unvaccinated people dying from Covid. There is something very wrong with this picture.

Giving voice to the voiceless is great, but again there has to be some balance and some recognition that no matter how many links and videos and long narratives you post about possible alternative treatments, those narratives are lending to people choosing not to be vaccinated or even participating in misadventures with attempts to self medicate. The voiceless have responsibilities too.

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2 users have voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@Fishtroller 02
c99 should censor essays and comments to provide balance? OK then.

I see no other way to provide the "balance" that you request without limiting content. You do realize that that's what you're advocating for, right.

You start with this:

I think just about everyone here agrees with that concept of allowing free opinion and discussion.

And end with this:

Giving voice to the voiceless is great, but again there has to be some balance and some recognition that no matter how many links and videos and long narratives you post about possible alternative treatments, those narratives are lending to people choosing not to be vaccinated or even participating in misadventures with attempts to self medicate. The voiceless have responsibilities too.

Why don't you just come right on out and say it. You sure do imply it.

Anyway, I'll let you have the last gallop word.

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10 users have voted.

@JtC

If someone tried to post a god awful right wing rant, would you allow it in? You limit content when one or more of us get too close to personal insults, don't you?

That being said, you should not have to provide the balance. Maybe just recognize the imbalance and nudge us along to other topics. As I told you before, my concern has been and remains the misrepresentation of science the non distinction of science vs. opinion. I'll leave it at that.

My ending comment was more directed towards others reading it.

What was the meaning of describing my comments as a "gallop" rather than a word?

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0 users have voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@Fishtroller 02
You see, this pony I'm riding is getting bogged down in the mud, the poor little guy's hooves are making a gish, gish sound as he plods through the mire.

I need to give him a rest.

What was the meaning of describing my comments as a "gallop" rather than a word?

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9 users have voted.

@JtC

I may be sticking my neck out here but since you asked....

Yes, there is something you can do. Since this topic is so distracting and divisive, why not have a once a week Covid 19 free for all. One time a week where all new info and topics on vaccines and ivermectin or whatever can be shared and discussed fully. This rather than every other diary being on these issues?

Just a thought, my two cents, or as I like to call it, my word.

Now rest that pony!

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0 users have voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

CB's picture

@Fishtroller 02
what diary you wish to engage in. You can always exercise your free will.

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8 users have voted.

@Fishtroller 02 @Fishtroller 02 The busy news day, or that Friday night at 10 p.m. that doesn't get much play?
Do you think it would also be fair to limit the pro-COVID vaccine posters to 1 day as well?
Do you think some breaking news, either way, could saves lives, should sit in the waiting room for the COVID day to post?
This works both ways.

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8 users have voted.

@on the cusp

for ideas. It is totally up to him what to do with the ideas. I just don't think that we need every other diary on here to be about Ivermectin or vaccines etc. So if it were my site, I'd try to encourage a better mix of offerings.... kind of like the way the site was before the Delta variant turned everybody's heads in one particular direction.

That being said, I still support the site and JtC's work here.

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2 users have voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

Raggedy Ann's picture

@Fishtroller 02 . Reading this site is a choice. You are choosing to read this site. Choosing to read means you must have an open mind. If you are unhappy with what you are reading, stop reading and move on to something else. It's really simple. I look forward to reading your essays. Pleasantry

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3 users have voted.

"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

@Fishtroller 02
There are some interesting essays up right now about C. and S. America, about BLM...
I hope to see you there!

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5 users have voted.

@Fishtroller 02 @Fishtroller 02 from the top is still censorship. What this site needs to maintain is its organic integrity, the feeling that it's truly the c99% of its members who are most responsible for topics discussed here.

So my idea is that if anyone has a problem with a perceived imbalance in topics discussed, they should themselves start a thread or two on non-Covid topics, and see if the natives respond. Much better that than having the site owner or his admins constantly on the floor with pencil and paper just counting the score.

(edit: I see that a couple of others have the same idea, which is good. an obvious solution.)

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4 users have voted.
Lookout's picture

@Fishtroller 02

So if you're arguing for the silencing of science, it doesn't fit your mind set ...that is unscientific.

For example in another essay today to claim you can't trust FLCCC info, but then never offer why. These doctors are experts in their field. Now if you don't want to "believe" their scientific findings that is your decision. But belief isn't science, following evidence is the nature of that discipline. You often claim MSM is science...like the now refuted Rolling stone horse paste emergency room LIE!. Debunked by several sources.

Now as I've said several times I'm not asking you to buy into IVM treatments, just asking you to quit saying it doesn't work and poisons people using only MSM sources like NYT articles. If FLCCC doctors are quacks give us your evidence. That is way science works. Follow the evidence.

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13 users have voted.

“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

@Lookout for Covid Remdesivir has likely poisoned more patients by far than the few poor souls who unwisely, or out of desperation, took the wrong form of IVM. Didn't Fauci once tout Remdesivir as a "game changer"?

I don't know if I 'd call him a quack exactly, when the Corrupted by Big Pharma explanation is still available.

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9 users have voted.
Pluto's Republic's picture

@wokkamile

....would mention Remdesivir and the profound corruption of the FDA when they approved that useless drug — which has been the ONLY treatment ever approved by the FDA to treat Covid-19 in the US.

The shame and disgrace of this unscientific fraud by the FDA can be topped only by the extortionist price of $3,000+ per injection — for this recycled treatment for ebola that never worked at all.

For some reason, this reminds me of Donald Rumsfeld and the obviously faked evidence showing that Iraq sought ingredients for WMD from Nigeria — complete with a "business" letter from a Nigerian uranium provider on letterhead crudely drawn with a felt-tip pen. Here's the connection: The war-industry profiteer and Neocon grifter, Donald Rumsfeld, was instrumental in the success of both frauds — Remdesivir and Iraq WMD.

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11 users have voted.

Add some perspective to your news. Read People's Daily — Feel the difference in your mind!

@Lookout

And I don't advocate for silencing FLCCC. What I do advocate for is a thorough vetting of the claims made by that group, and unfortunately when that vetting has occurred, several concerns have appeared. But you know, if I try to point those out, the door is already shut by those who just don't want to accept the results of the good hard look side of the FLCCC.

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0 users have voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@Fishtroller 02 checking out the claims of the FLCCC, provided you use the same strict scrutiny of claims made by the public health, academic and media figures repping the pro-COV vax side.

But last I saw, despite excellent arguments and evidence from FLCCC that would normally be good to go in front of the FDA for approval on non-coved matters, it's all of no avail bc the rebel doctor group can't show a Really Big Expensive Yearlong RCT of the type Big Pharma normally funds and undertakes.

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7 users have voted.

@wokkamile

was invited to testify ( this sort of flies in the face of the claim that these arguments have been suppressed). If you read this article, you will see why FLCCC remains suspect in terms of science. They shot themselves in the foot with this testimony and some of the outrageous claims they made about Ivermectin.

How Ivermectin Became The New Focus Of The Anti-Vaccine Movement

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1 user has voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@Fishtroller 02 can bring in a relevant witness in some of these committees, as I understand, which is probably what occurred. So to that lone senator's credit. one individual was able to use the process and bring valuable information to the public. The suppression started when the MSM failed to pick up Kory's important testimony, at least to my knowledge. Then after Kory's testimony began to pick up steam up YT, the censors there removed it. Suppression #2. (I doubt if Dr Kory has ever been interviewed in the MSM, certainly not by the cables other than maybe Fox. They are just interested in covering the IVM story as horse paste.)

Suppression #3 is how his testimony is dismissed later in some MSM coverage, as with the highly biased, one-sided NPR article you favorably cite. Did the alleged journalist do due diligence and fairly report both sides, or did she act as an advocate for the anti-IVM side? It's clear her intent was to do another MSM hit job on IVM. Look at the many anti-IVM people, supposed experts, she quotes to denigrate the treatment, while interviewing and quoting ZERO persons in the pro-IVM camp.

Oh, I found this part laughable and also revealing of the state-friendly, armchair state psychologist tone of that hit piece

"It fits into the bigger narrative about the so-called 'medical deep state' [in which] scientists, pharmaceutical and political elites have an interest in making people use more expensive, experimental drugs" to increase the profits of the pharmaceutical industry, Yang says. "And they have an interest in not showing the public the cheap, widely available drugs that can supposedly cure COVID-19." (Ingraham has labeled Dr. Anthony Fauci as part of the "medical deep state.")

Yes, it's SO far-fetched to consider such interwoven elites wanting to suppress a cheap effective drug in favor of a later more expensive one. They would never do that. And of course They don't really exist. It's just a figment of your fevered conspiracy-deluded imagination.

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6 users have voted.

@wokkamile

a right winger with an agenda, so to praise him for his sponsorship of Kory and his organization is rather uncomfortable, don't you think? Just google "Senator Johnson of WI on Ivermectin and you get a boatload of doctors writing articles on his POV and how it is hurting public health (17 conformed cases of IVM poisoning in WI). They ask Johnson to stop promoting an unproven treatment. If you take the time to read all those op-eds, they demonstrate the myriad of problems with this promotion.

In fact, if you research Sen. Johnson's record and statements on many topics, you might come to the conclusion that Dr. Kory and FLCCC did themselves no favors by hitching their wagon to his star.

I notice that you focus on all the conspiracy stuff and not on the medical/science claims that Kory made in his testimony. https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Testimony-Kory-2020-12-08.pdf In one section of his testimony, Kory claimed that as of Nov. 2020 there had been 21 clinical studies done on IVM and that these studies achieved 100% positive results. That claim in and of itself should have given anyone who knows anything about science and medical clinical studies pause. It is no wonder that people backed off on supporting FLCCC and/or deciding not to pursue disseminating their claims.

Kory claimed "Mountains of data have emerged from many centers and countries around the world showing the miraculous effectiveness of ivermectin, it basically obliterates transmission of this virus. If you take it, you will not get sick." Then in Sept of 2021, Dr. Kory, while on the FLCCC recommended protocol got sick with Covid 19. He caught it from his daughter, who also was on the same IVM protocol as he was. Here is his tweet of August ..."I have experienced and am getting reports from FLCCC Alliance members that Delta variant patients crashing into ICU’s… are not showing responses to MATH+. We are demoralized and frightened. Early treatment is CRITICAL. Every household should take I-MASK+ upon first symptoms." He was on the ivermectin and all the other supplements that he and FLCCC pushed for and claimed would keep you from getting Covid at all. Now FLCCC is recommending that people double the amounts originally suggested. This new recommendation is nothing more than guesswork on the part of Kory and FLCCC.

All along, I have been writing here that the science is the most important part of this whole conversation. It still is. People like Kory and those involved in the FLCCC group have not, I repeat, not shown that science is their first priority. And that just could be the reason for the massive rejection of their message. Now that their claims are unraveling, it will be interesting to see what happens to their "science".

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0 users have voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@wokkamile

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/09/19/1038369557/ivermect...

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0 users have voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@Fishtroller 02
Science is not a religion. Pronouncements are not made ex cathedra.

My own field of Physics once believed in phlogiston. It also laughed at early proposals of time as a dimension and quantum mechanics.

Science changes. Also before this I never (or rarely) heard of Medicine described as a science. Certainly not an unquestioned science.
Why don't we bleed people to cure covid. Or give them heroin because it is non-addicting? (Heroin was touted as a non-addicting replacement for morphine according to Ken Burns).

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9 users have voted.

I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

@The Voice In the Wilderness

for 5 years. I had to present the work of the scientists to the public, which meant having to understand it as best I could and then translate it into understandable terms. So I am quite familiar with physics, at least as it was practiced there. One of my favorite memories was walking down a hallway with Leon Lederman who was telling me jokes. Absolutely loved my experience.

Physics, as just one of the disciplines of science, is certainly not at all like religion. Every idea and every experiment is subject to correction and refusal or change. You can't do that with Jesus!

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1 user has voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@JtC @JtC

If you want to continue to misrepresent this have at it.

I've never had an issue with "giving voice to the voiceless", and I would call out anyone who said otherwise.
It's your definition of "voiceless" that I find disagreeable.

If you want to talk about voiceless, I'd start with the homeless. They aren't just voiceless, they are totally invisible. This is an example of what I think of as "voiceless".
But if you're going to compare the current crowd that refuses to wear masks (speaking of which, I got harassed by some rando on the street because I was wearing a mask last night) to the homeless, then I'll call you a "Karen".
I'm not saying that you are making this comparison.

If you are talking about the people who refuse to get vaccinated, who are getting actively cheered on by the largest cable news network on a daily basis, and try to tell me that they are "voiceless" then I'll accuse you of not knowing the definition of the word "voiceless".

I visited my brother this weekend, and they had CNN on. I wasn't really watching it, but I noticed that after 4 hours they were STILL talking about COVID. I had to yell, "Jesus Christ! Can we watch something that isn't about COVID? Can we watch BBC news?"
I'm guessing that all the other cable news networks are similar.
I don't watch cable news EVER.
That's why I haven't lost my f*cking mind over COVID like some people I know have (I'm not thinking of anyone here). But I do know a sure-fire cure:
TURN OFF THE CABLE NEWS!
Even if you haven't lost your mind, turn it off anyway.

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7 users have voted.

@gjohnsit
you usually do a better job of researching.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/20/business/media/fox-news-covid-vaccine...

https://www.newsweek.com/more-fox-news-viewers-open-vaccinations-after-h...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2021/08/05/vaccine-skepticism-...

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/564210-fox-news-airs-psa-telling-view...

Please note the dates of these articles. And the sources.

I think I understand "voiceless" quite well.

If you are talking about the people who refuse to get vaccinated, who are getting actively cheered on by the largest cable news network on a daily basis, and try to tell me that they are "voiceless" then I'll accuse you of not knowing the definition of the word "voiceless".

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10 users have voted.
snoopydawg's picture

@gjohnsit

Why are you bringing in people we have no control over? And in case you missed it most people are not anti vax because they have had their childhood vaccines which they have stated numerous times. They are questioning these vaccines that HAVE been rushed to market without long term studies on them. I hope you will read this on leaky vaccines and you might get something out of the video included. That it’s on the Jimmy show shouldn’t cloud your judgment if your mind is open to things you might not know.

https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2021-09-18/debate-leaky-vaccines/

That the current vaccines would be leaky ones was well known in advance because of previous studies on them. Fauci has even discussed knowing about it, but went ahead and did it anyway. You just don’t do massive vaccines during a hot virus or if you do you just protect the most vulnerable. And you leave kids alone until the trials are finished.

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14 users have voted.

In a free country civil liberties are not only for certain groups.
So this is how liberty dies . . . with thunderous applause.
The donor class doesn’t want it, and Americans elect the bribed. So suck it up.

@snoopydawg
There has not been time for long term studies. Therefore mandates for the unwilling are wrong. Informed choice, yes.
Mandates for measles vaccine, YES. Mandates for covid-19 vaccine? Maybe 20 years from now.
Choice now? Yes.

And people like me wouldn't be wary if government and big pharma hadn't lied to us continuously for at least fifty years.

Bill gates says most proles should die. Then he says we should all get vaccinated. Then I read that he was involved in vaccine disasters in africa. That's a reason to run away from covid vaccines.

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9 users have voted.

I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

enhydra lutris's picture

are subtly insidious (if that isn't redundant) because early on one learns that arguing about ideas is ok but insulting persons is not, and the classic instance is that you can say something is dumb but not that somebody is dumb. That's a very thin line, however, because if you say believing that idea is dumb, then that implies that persons who do so are dumb, and that difference is easily glossed over by writers and readers alike.

The simple answer is to stick to non-pejorative descriptors, if something is wrong, call it wrong, or erroneous and leave all words on the idiotic/moronic/dumb/stupid spectrum out of discussions entirely.

I suggest that all who use "broad brush" type terminology to slyly insult or demean one or more others should always remember that such behavior is widely seen as strong evidence that they have no support or basis for their position, as in this old example of what they are doing:

If the other side has the facts or evidence, attack the logic or law
If the other side has the logic or law, attack the facts or evidence
If the other side has both the facts or evidence and the logic or law, attack the other person personally.

I know that my general reaction to all sly innuendo is to discount whatever the poster is asserting or implying, and I suspect many do likewise.

be well and have a good one

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15 users have voted.

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

@enhydra lutris
mi hermano.

I think some folks do it unknowingly, but that doesn't lessen the impact of the subtle insult.

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11 users have voted.

@enhydra lutris

one of the basic problems with challenging religious ideas is that people could not or refused to see the separation between criticizing religious IDEAS and CLAIMS and personal criticism of the people holding those ideas. If you said, for example, that the concept of salvation is divisive, the religionist would respond with "hey are you calling me decisive"?!

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1 user has voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@Fishtroller 02

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2 users have voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@enhydra lutris

about the elites. Smile

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7 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

enhydra lutris's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

anybody here by doing so.

be well and have a good one

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2 users have voted.

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

gulfgal98's picture

I no longer feel comfortable here any more simply because I DID choose to become vaccinated for very personal reasons which I have stated on multiple occasions. I have already posted that I am no going to participate on this site in any further discussions regarding this topic.

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6 users have voted.

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Lookout's picture

@gulfgal98

I too was vaccinated. I'm glad I did. No one is suggesting that people NOT get vaccinated, that it is a personal decision which shouldn't be mandated but determined by individuals based on their own health history. My view is we need both treatments and vaccinations. The vaccination message is loud and clear, but treatment information is suppressed....even disappeared. You don't want to participate at a site where various approaches are open for discussion? Julian being silenced is the same phenomenon IMO. Only instead of CIA/MIC silencing Julian, it is big pharma/ hospital lobby silencing these doctors and others. To my mind this is the issue,

I feel I've "known" you for a long time. You (and RA) brought me here from the old BNR at the Daily lost. You've always been a rational voice here to my mind. I've noticed your missing voice of late, but I guess you've got to do what you feel is best for yourself and your ethics.

I wish you the best, and hope you will reconsider your abandonment of c99.

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13 users have voted.

“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

enhydra lutris's picture

@Lookout

I have already posted that I am no going to participate on this site in any further discussions regarding this topic.

(my emphasis)

I'm on her side with that, but I sort of have an obligation to keep an eye on everything. I find it all monstrously boring. There's been something of a yearlong gish gallop from the "anti" faction, none of it new as far as I can see, and a lot of it bordering on religion "It will reprogram your DNA" and hence irrefutable and, accordingly, not worth discussing. I actually stumble across a lot of "pro" stuff that seems not too widely known, and certainly never gets mentioned here, but don't bring it up because there would be no point in doing so. This will continue until the next thing somebody can create a controversy over comes about and in the meantime, you do or you don't, place your bets and take your chances. if anybody wishes to endlessly reiterate why their choice is the (only) correct one, that's fine too, everybody just has to be civil about it.

be well and have a good one

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8 users have voted.

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

@enhydra lutris

"There's been something of a yearlong gish gallop from the "anti" faction, none of it new as far as I can see, and a lot of it bordering on religion."..... mostly because that thought has crossed my mind many times in reviewing the "information" being offered. I should have just let it go like you do so well. I miss the variety of diaries and discussions that has marked this site since I came to it. I guess I'll just have to be patient.

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2 users have voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@gulfgal98 Are you suggesting censorship? That doesn't sound like you. You have always been a voice speaking to power, taking the unpopular view. And respecting all who disagree with you.
If you do follow through with a permanent absence, your lovely voice of reason will be missed. You have garnered great respect here.

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10 users have voted.
enhydra lutris's picture

@on the cusp

be well and have a good one

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3 users have voted.

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

@enhydra lutris @enhydra lutris You do not have to be hall monitor, any more than anyone else here, besides the administrator.
Let's enjoy life. Celebrate your choices. Be glad others can celebrate theirs.
With all sincerity, not some auto sig line, be well and have a good one.

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9 users have voted.

@on the cusp
el is a moderator here. I'm pretty sure that's what he meant by keeping an eye on everything.

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5 users have voted.

@JtC First mistake, like, in a long time. Like, decades...

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6 users have voted.
Pluto's Republic's picture

@on the cusp

... who hasn't disappointed me in this thread.

Or perhaps I am the only one here who didn't drop acid. Did I miss the memo or something?

More on this another time . . .

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6 users have voted.

Add some perspective to your news. Read People's Daily — Feel the difference in your mind!

@Pluto's Republic Btw, I intend to check out the website in your sig line. It looks extremely interesting.

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3 users have voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Pluto's Republic

I'm always interested to hear your insights.

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4 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

enhydra lutris's picture

@on the cusp @on the cusp

"be well and have a good one" is not an autosig, nor even copypasta but manually entered bonafide well wishing. That is how it comes to pass that I periodically forget it (though I also sometimes omit it out of hurriedness.) It stems from a not quite superstitious belief that personally injecting a little well wishing into each contact with others makes the place at least infinitesimally brighter and better, somewhat like a Tibetan monk spinning his prayer wheel regardless of the weather and worldly woes.

be well and have a good one

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4 users have voted.

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@gulfgal98

I've lost too many friends already.

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4 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@gulfgal98

I hope it was the right choice. I had to roll the dice, hoping that the shots will actually give us a better chance of not contracting the disease, basically because of Kate. Both she and I, ordinarily, have no interest in taking experimental drugs, but if you're an organ transplant patient in an epidemic, you do what your medical team tells you to do. And so do your relations.

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7 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

with the subject of COVID. I would like to see at least one post about it every day. This issue is having tremendous impact in a myriad of ways. I want to talk about it and I want to read about it in all its aspects. Clear thought and an honest attempt to get to the truth of things should be the goal. I'm not interested in garbage arguments but I am interested in argument as a way to try and figure out the best course and the best ideas.

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14 users have voted.

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