Why Does the Clinton Machine Want Us to Leave?
I apologize ahead of time for the somewhat lightweight diary, but I decided to make it a diary rather than a comment b/c I want a larger number of people to see it and help me speculate on this question.
I came back to the Democratic party only to vote for Bernie, and had no intention of staying within it any longer than I had to. However, before lots of us make a move our enemy--and make no mistake, Hillary Clinton is our enemy--wants us to make, I think it's worth trying to answer the question in my diary title. And I'd like other people to have input, so that perhaps we can get farther together than I've been able to speculating on my own.
Why does Clinton want us to leave the Democratic party?
Why does her faction want us to leave so bad?
Because, I guarantee you, nobody in politics alienates a group this consistently for this long without it being on purpose.
Hillary is evil, and lacks charisma, but she isn't stupid. And neither are her 6-figure (or 7-figure?) consultants. They all know that we will leave. And they keep doing everything they can to make sure we will.
Even David Axelrod, an establishment guy if there ever was one, believes that the Hillary campaign is deliberately alienating us. He doesn't understand why the Hillary machine is behaving the way it is; he said on Twitter that he "didn't get" how Hillary could talk about party unity and then have her top aide get up and talk about how "destructive" the Sanders campaign is immediately afterward. Axelrod said "I don't get it."
They know exactly what they're doing. They want us to leave. As Anton Bursch said to me about 3 years ago: "I can't wait till you Greens get out of the party so we can bring the moderate Republicans in."
That's the only thing slowing my departure. Because I don't like making the move my enemy wants me to make.
I'll probably leave anyway--I only came back to vote for Bernie--but I'd like to know WHY she wants us out before I go.
Obviously, she wants to replace us with Bush Republicans and other Republicans who fear Trump, thus completing the transformation of the Democratic party she and Bill began in the late 80s....
But I find it highly doubtful she's going to convince a lot of rank-and-file Republican voters to fill the ranks we leave empty. Most of them don't seem to be buying; #NeverTrump doesn't seem as powerful as #NeverHillary.
And to the extent that Republican rank-and-file voters are crossing the party line to vote for a Democrat, they're voting for Bernie, not her.
So--is she intending to do without ALL of us? Create a coalition based on African-Americans over 45, white Democrats over 60, and Jeb Bush's donor list? And, I guess, maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of the Latino voters (that's a VERY rough estimate b/c I find the Latino vote difficult to read right now--for one thing they don't vote in a block quite the way African-Americans often do--and also, I'm seeing some changes in Latino support for Hillary. I think maybe word of Honduras is spreading).
Any ruminations, speculations, or information about this would be welcome.
Comments
Former bourbon lady here.
And I say "Scotch, eeeew!" but can tolerate rye. Now a dark rum... I never twanged before, and don't talk like a pirate, but I know the nautical terms. Avast means over yonder.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Yar! Drink up me hearties, yo-ho!
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I love me some rum, and now you made me think of a song to share
Love me some AleStorm.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f55CqLc6IR0]
Or this one.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfol_TLLnIw&list=PLkLa-m-un6E18UlV68tt8p...
Both of which are on my playlist for the boat.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
No, you don't understand--
*She's* supposed to be the face. Think Lex Lugar vs the Million-Dollar Man.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I love me some Nina Turner!
No matter what happens in this election, we must keep that lady in public life.
Twain Disciple
IMO, black leadership has sold out the black community
for their own purpose and gain. The older black voters are as ineffective and useless as the Democrats. Fear works well on all of us.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
I cringe at the
statement, "Bernie endorses Hillary" --- it sends a chill through my soul. I will feel betrayed by Bernie if he endorses Hillary! I just can't see him doing this! I will be heartbroken if he endorses her --- it really makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it. This is not healthy for me. I suppose I've over invested my heart in this damn primary. Shit, shit, shit!
If he does that, it will be sickening
But it doesn't have to break us.
That's where I'm at.
But he's being awfully cagey about that.
His line "I will do everything possible to stop Donald Trump from being President" is a masterpiece of political verbal engineering. I wish I'd thought of it. It could be taken so many ways.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
RW voters
For whom will they vote: the one who they hate who will protect their assets or the guy who is a wild card?
The RW voters I talk to don't have a hell of a lot of
assets. Some are still middle-class; most are falling out of the middle class or are working-class.
The upper middles and uppers do not hang out where I do.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
FWIW
The folks I'm primarily thinking of are similar in wealth to me, but have aspirations for significant increases...any day now. Just as the saying goes that you should dress for the job you want not the job you have, conservative voters consistently vote based on their beliefs about themselves more than their reality.
Right wing voters are my friends now.
I'm counting on them to defeat Hillary.
You know... keep your enemies close, blah, blah.
Isn't that ironic? And sad?
A childhood friend and I who have assiduously avoided talking politics recently bonded over our mutual hatred of Hillary. She's even voting in the Dem primary for Bernie because she wants to help deny Hillary a primary win. In the general, of course, she's for Trump. I, on the other hand, will be left without a candidate. But that's nothing new.
Twain Disciple
It would be a perfect strategy to take her down out west.
TOP says Hillary is leading in the polls in OR by 15 pts.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
That's shocking, if true--
but I heard it was one outlier poll that came up w/that.
I don't know, maybe Oregon will shock me.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
That's hard to swallow, but it's a strange year.
Twain Disciple
It would mean she had a larger lead going into the
primary in OR--than she did in New York.
That's what's hard to swallow.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Yeah, that guy, "I knew someone would pick me up,"
chose to work for the scumbag David Brock. He's only 24. I don't hold that against him, but I do hold against him working for a scumbag POS.
Yes, Hillary has brought me together with my RWNJ parents
She really IS bringing people together.
For the first time in my lifetime, my parents and I agree that the presumptive Democratic nominee must lose....
We don't agree on the means, but we agree on the ends.
The elites would prefer only one political party
But they can't do that--the illusion of democracy must be maintained. So their goal is for the second-best thing: two neoconservative, pro-Wall Street parties, one socially conservative, the other socially liberal (maybe, kind of, depending on which way the wind blows.) Us dirty proles still get to feel like we have a choice, but they get to be in charge either way.
This is the 40-year dream project of people who own private jets, and if the Democratic Party is the party of Hillary Clinton without that annoying progressive/New Deal faction to act as a counterforce, then they're this close to achieving it.
"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum." --Noam Chomsky
Bingo!
They could care less who sleeps with who and the only color they care about is Green (as in money, not environment).
As for religion, if they truly believed in the Christian Bible, they would quake in their boots for what it says awaits them.
It's just a useful tool to keep the poor in line.
They don't care one way or the other about abortion, either. They always had the money for a safe abortion, whether legal or not. But it's a wonderful issue (either side) to bind voters to a Party that is inimical to their financial interests.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
The Dems are suddenly pushing social issues
Most notably: transgender rights.
While this is certainly a worthy cause, I find the timing suspicious. "Let's pivot from beating back the Sanders rabble to scaring them." This is exactly the sort of tactic the GOP uses to gin up their base. Are we surprised?
Note that I am not arguing that activists are being astroturfed, just that it suddenly became expedient for the Democratic power structure to selectively listen to them and promote this one cause instead of all of the causes that we are been pushing.
We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg
couldn't
agree more. Within 2 days of the 'issue' of transgender bathrooms came to forefront of bullshit media/political discussion out here on the west coast, two friends of mine, one republican and one democrat spoke with me about the absurdity of the 'issue' that affects less then 0.1% of the population as if it is the most important issue of our lifetimes. Total nonsense and absurdity
For some reason, they feel sure that a new party couldn't
possibly compete. I guess b/c of electoral fraud?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Third parties do have a tough go of it
but I still think it's a miscalculation. These people live in a bubble, only talk to other people in the bubble, and only consume media that reinforces the bubble mentality. They've been leading us around by the nose for so long I'm sure they think they can go on doing it forever. So while alternatives to our Rep/Dem duopoly have a hard time getting off the ground, I think we've gotten to the point that when one finally comes it will build itself up more swiftly and comprehensively than the elites can imagine. Few French aristocrats saw the guillotines coming until it was their own head on the block.
"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum." --Noam Chomsky
If Bernie isn't the Democratic nominee
I'm betting that we will see Jill Stein get the highest vote total ever obtained by a third party candidate including Teddy Roosevelt with the Bull Moose Party in 1912 when he got 27% of the vote. Roosevelt originally ran as a progressive with the GOP because he felt that Taft, the GOP front runner, was too cozy with big business. When Taft beat him at the convention, Roosevelt split with Republicans and formed the Bull Moose Party. The Democrat, Woodrow Wilson, won the Presidency.
Beware the bullshit factories.
If enough people know about her, yes.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
$hillary is driving out the progressives ...
and appealing to the Bushites to join her "team", because her intention (although currently unarticulated) is to CREATE a third party - the MONEY PARTY - which need answer to no one but the 1 percenters (or, maybe, the 0.01 percenters). The repug progressives (such as they are) will be Drumpf followers; the true progressives never will vote for faux "Democrats" again; and the Money Party will be left holding the field - for the foreseeable future.
When Cicero had finished speaking, the people said “How well he spoke”.
When Demosthenes had finished speaking, the people said “Let us march”.
Say it, Sister! I would add to movie buff's excellent
comment, that we have to remember that the Establishment/Elite Dems are mostly interested in winning the the so-called 'Obama Coalition,' with a few Republicans thrown in, if necessary.
This coalition, as described by the Donna Brazile's of the world, would include:
youth/millennial voters
minorities--especially AA and Latinos
single (working class) woman, and
'liberals.' (Their definition of this cohort--the professional class.)
The rest of the left- or populist-leaning Democrats and Independents--be damned!
IOW, Dems long ago decided that they did not need working class men. (Or even women, unless their pandering rhetoric about the Lily Ledbetter Bill was sufficient to win them over.)
IMO, they have yet to figure out that many in the professional class (liberals) are also fed up with their empty promises, and corporatist neoliberal agenda(s).
My hope is that enough Dems and Independents will refuse to vote LOTE this election, and the PtB will be forced 'to get it.'
Mollie
"Every time I lose a dog, he takes a piece of my heart. Every new dog gifts me with a piece of his. Someday, my heart will be total dog, and maybe then I will be just as generous, loving, and forgiving."--Author Unknown
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
Just going through that list...
Youth/millenial voters---uh.. BAAAAP!!! Sorry, no go.
Minorities--AA--over 45, absolutely. Under 45? Starting to get a little shaky, but still solid. Might pose problems for future, but not for 2016--absent a catalyzing event.
Minorities--Latino--very difficult to tell. my instincts are telling me this ground is starting to seriously shake under her feet, but I can't tell how far the fault line goes.
single (working class) women--Um, no, not anymore. Sanders has started winning more women than Hillary.
"liberals"--Here I think they're still doing well, but that's just a guess-there's not a lot written about the upper middle class, and I haven't been keeping an eye on data and events in regard to them.
Nice to see you, Mollie!
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Back atcha', CStS! Good to be seen. ;-D Good Analysis. EOM
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
Thanks!
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I think Latinos stick with Hillary because of Trump
Not sure how well she'd do with the Latino vote without him. (She'd get the large majority, but turnout would likely suck.)
Professional-class liberals are, I think, the target audience for the media manipulation. People who "pay attention to politics" and watch MSHRC fancy themselves sophisticated, but in reality they're the most heavily propagandized voting bloc Democrats target. All the conventional wisdom media blather is just ongoing Big Lie tactics used by Democratic propagandists to keep their precious professional-class voters in line. It serves the same purpose as social wedge-issue pandering.
I think the percentages for all these groups will skew Democratic in November, but turnout will be bad. Clinton may well beat Trump, but it will depend on how hard the media hits Trump during the general election campaign. The media will make the next president, based on how they cover this election. Two candidates with strong negatives: the one the media focuses its fire on will be the one who loses.
Please help support caucus99percent!
Lily Ledbetter Bill
was a sop to lawyers. Great fodder for class action suits. Who can really prove what happened 15 years ago?
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
I feel driven out
I was politically educated by New Dealers. Part of the southern FDR circle. Their efforts folded into the Civil rights movement and the antiwar protests. I spent the next few decades watching the fading face of FDR (and MLK) in the party. I was hoodwinked by Billary into thinking 'democrats improved the economy' as the economy was being handed by Clinton to the oligarchs.
I feel like Charlie Brown kicking the football, cause here I came again buying into hope and change in 2008 and then voting for the "lesser of two evils" in 2012. Now the Democrats are blatant republicans with DWS offering mountains of evidence to that fact, not to mention the Clinton's and their foundation. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
I'm with Bernie all the way, and I'm still hopeful some crack of light will penetrate into the dark of public awareness. The movie "Clinton Cash" premieres Tuesday in Cannes. The FBI might do their job? But I don't know, the oligarchs are powerful.
I think the Greens represent my views better than what is masquerading as the democratic party. I've lost all belief in the party and the MSM including NPR and PBS.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Why? Because we are the last of the true 'Democrats' and they
need us gone so they can complete the transformation of the 'Party' into everything it is never supposed to be.
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks
Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa
We are the last to remember when American was great!
Thirving middle class, man on the power, the miracles f science were everywhere, each generation expected to do better..... We are the last to know what can be done when we focus on our governmental and capital resources on making life better for people, not capitalists.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
One party with two names is what the Wealthers want.
Bill Clinton openly sucked up to the financial parasites of Wall Street and turned the party over to them and their money.
Since Reagan, there has been open war on organized labor - Remember Obama's promise of the card check system of organizing workplaces? One of his bigger lies.
The left is hostile toward those who control the political economy and both wings of the Money party think they have the situation under control on both the flanks. (Trump is scaring them from the right: How will they buy him off?)
With it next to impossible to mount a 3rd Party campaign because of the antidemocratic laws in place, the rich figure the left will either buy the lesser of two evils argument or sit it out. Either way, they figure to win.
The Latinos have seen the greatest number of deportations under Obama so those who are swayed by this, really have no place to go either.
The voter turnout is the USA is among the lowest in developed(or formerly developed) nations and it's going to get a lot lower. What may be going up are serious street demonstration and acts of civil disobedience.
Those who back Clinton are much closer politically to Reagan than they are to Sanders.
If workers have become expendable, so have progressive voters. I'll add that The Contingent Work Study has shown that this form of exploitation has grown from 10.1% to 15.8% in the ten years ending in 2015. These workers are responsible for both their and the employer share of Social Security and Medicare taxes - think Uber. Under Obama, work in traditional jobs has declined while "alt" jobs has seen all the growth.
We are on the losing side of the class war.
"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"
The bright side?
At least the idea that we are, in fact, engaged in a class war is gaining traction rapidly. Mrs. "Skin-in-the-game" Clinton has all but told millennial to go fuck off and accept that eternal debt peonage is their lot in life.
Pity would be no more if we did not make somebody poor-William Blake
A majority of millennials favor socialism over capitalism.
And this is in the face of a lifetime of slagging off on socialists and suppressing accurate teaching of what it is. This means that they are willing to take a chance on an imperfectly known system over the neoliberal policies they've been subjected to. This heartening and should help keep Sen. Sanders on the path the older FDR laid out.
If Warren Buffet can call it a class war, then no one should shy away from using that accurate descriptor.
"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"
Until they do something like shutting down the Net
or making it impossible to use, I see a lot of ways we could build an alternative party, or maybe a networked coalition of many communities, that could be rather successful.
The obstacles to building such a thing are obvious: people are exhausted, overworked, demoralized; we are under constant surveillance; we have no answer, currently, to infiltration, which is one of the establishment's favorite tools; people generally don't like doing this kind of work (building alternative media, building IRL communities, figuring out how to work around the system to secure resources)--voting, and even campaigning, are less challenging and people are tired (see above) and scared to think outside the box sometimes too.
But if I were Sanders, I'd have people in place to build just that infrastructure, essentially preparing to repurpose the campaign infrastructure on a dime as soon as necessary--probably at the convention.
I think such a networked coalition could do great things. It would also inspire a counter-attack, probably along the lines of infiltration and character assassination in the press, and figuring out how to deal with such things is hard. But if we're going to try to do anything, we're going to have to develop ideas for how to deal with them.
The alternative is a bottle of tequila and a beach. Watch the world burn.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I am so disgusted with the Dems that
I would rather watch the Democratic party burn to the ground. In a way, they have been a more corrosive force in the lives of every day people. They have talked one way and acted another. We saw it with Obama. But Bernie coming into the national spotlight really blew back the curtain on what the party really stands for.
And why do I think the Dems are worse than the Republicans? Because we always knew what the Repubs stood for and they were out front. It is a lot easier to fight a known enemy than a back stabber.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
so true
... way back in 1994 I told my wife that NAFTA was one of the worst policies passed in my lifetime and results are going to devastating.... coupled with the continued, unwavering political support by both establishment parties for these policies with deregulation (or non enforcement of regulations) and privatization of essential services for the subsequent 22 years has led us to this point. The only thing that has surprised me is 1. How long it has taken many people to understand how wrong it is and get pissed about it 2. How much it was going to devastate me and my family (2002) despite all my engineering experience ...
I loathe globalists and don't see them as anything but pure fascists masquerading as human beings
FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph
I have often thought
that if all the disparate political parties across the country - the Greens, the Working Families Party, the Democratic Socialists of America, the various local/regional Occupy groups, BLM, Moral Mondays - could somehow consolidate their infrastructure, their platforms and their voters, electing leaders and running candidates in the FDR/Bernie mold, they would have a serious going concern.
I mean, why reinvent the wheel? The idea(l) s and the parties that support those idea(l)s are already out there; since Bernie came onto the scene even a blind person can see that.
Personally, I'd like to see Bernie flip his infrastructure and knowledge base into the skeleton of a third party if he is robbed of the nomination. If all those other groups could be convinced to come under that umbrella (and really, their respective platforms meld nicely) who's to say they wouldn't be unstoppable in ten years' time? Not that we have ten years. *sigh *
The trick, of course, is making it happen.
"When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained." - Mark Twain
I would not be surprised (meaning I really hope)
that there are talks underway between those elements to make it so. That could end/begin with Bernie at the Convention (after being officially declared Loser) standing up announcing his candidacy for President under new aegis. It would be thrilling history.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
since carter
carter proudly signed more anti union bills tan any other prez
Solidarity forever
I'm in favor of forming another party
whether Bernie wins the Democratic nomination or not. I'll support Bernie as long as he's running but in the end, I want a voice, dammit!
ETA:
And if the nomination is stolen from Bernie, I don't care how much damage a third party run would cause. I'm not convinced that Hillary would be better than Trump. He is a strange bird, all right, but I doubt that Hillary is completely sane.
Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.
I don't think she's less dangerous.
She's much more likely to start WWIII than Trump. Her ideas about Iran show that.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I agree
More wars and trade deals are exactly what Clinton is all about.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
I sometimes wonder if we'll make it through 4 years of Clinton
Much less 8.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
The TPP & other "trade" deals will kill all climate hopes
plus give away our national sovereignty to multinational corporations. Hillary has supported them (says now she doesn't). Forget about any Common Good moves if Hillary gets in.
The Clinton machine "knows" we won't leave.
Opinion polls have shown that, in election after election, liberal Democrats are the most loyal Democrats. That's what makes such bullshit of the hippie-punching that you see after Democrat defeats -- of course it wasn't the "progressives" that deserted the party in 2010 and 2014. But they knew that already. They are counting on the liberal vote. Liberal-bashing is to get the conservative vote.
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
This time is differerent
Clinton and her supporters have inadvertently turned a whole generation of liberals into leftists. These are people who think it's OK to wage economic war on American workers at home and on innocent civilians in the Middle East just as long as they mouth pretty words about redolence and inclusion. These are beautiful people, you see, people who turn the world outside their bubble into a living hell and then have the gall to ask their victims "why are you people so angry?"
Pity would be no more if we did not make somebody poor-William Blake
They don't think so.
And they have a rather substantial polling history documenting their overconfident assertion that you all have Stockholm syndrome and will vote for the (D) no matter what. Moreover, there are still plenty of people out there who will vote for Clinton out of some sort of mistaken loyalty to the Democratic Party, such as Robert Reich and TomP. This is what makes Sanders' forthcoming endorsement of Clinton such a scary prospect. The Clinton faithful will blame the Bernie-or-busters for the election outcome and we will all be back to square one.
Clinton has merely streamlined the process that you saw in 2000 and 2004, except of course that she actually wants to be President, which distinguishes her from Gore and Kerry. Nobody cares about political promises anyway when scary stories about the other candidate will do. The Republicrats compete to see who wants it more, since there are no real ideological differences between them and a firm desire on both sides to crush the popular will in the headlong reversion to Victorian-era standards of mass poverty.
This is the outcome you must prevent. Can you do it without Sanders' support?
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
If we build it, they will come.
The #NeverHillary #NeverTrump feeling is *strong* in this country, and getting stronger, it seems to me, daily.
Nobody ever believes in change until they see it happening. Not even leftists. But the past is not always prologue. I keep telling people this time is different, but people don't listen.
One of the problems is that activists fall into two categories: electoral and non-electoral, and it's rare to find anyone who's both, and hard to get them talking to each other/working together. Electoral people tend to have tunnel vision and non-electoral people tend to be massively cynical and therefore the work of shifting from an electoral movement to a persistent one rarely gets even attempted.
Here's what I think is going to happen:
Without some serious organizing, I expect to see turnout crater if the choice is Hillary vs Trump. The "ooh scary Trump!" thing may work for some partisan Democrats, but partisanship--despite what MSM wants you to believe about our "polarized" nation--is at a low. The pattern of "OMG must vote Blue!" or "OMG must vote Red!" still exists, but it is vastly outnumbered by the people who despise both parties and both candidates--and the number appears to be growing weekly. The only question is: can organizers come up with an action that those people will use to express their beliefs and their desire for change, if/when Bernie ceases to lead the movement?Better yet, can organizers come up with a larger plan that incorporates many actions? Can we build a persistent movement? If we can build one, and disseminate the knowledge that it exists, people will come. In large numbers.
Without that serious organizing, all that we'll have is a massively alienated population sitting out the Republicrat/MSM shitshow.
With serious organizing, we could achieve a persistent movement.
A few other thoughts:
It's patently not true that "nobody cares about political promises when scary stories about the other candidate will do." The guy making promises is drawing thousands at his smallest rallies--everywhere--and the Scary Story Lady can hardly pull a few hundred in her favorite places!
As far as Sanders supporting Hillary, that will knock off some from the movement, but this is an extremely independent-minded movement. I don't know if Cenk Uygur is a decent guy or an establishment tool, but the end of this rant is actually spot-on (h/t jamess) http://www.caucus99percent.com/content/cenk-deconstructs-super-ds-tone-i...
As Cenk said, the movement pre-existed Bernie; Bernie coalesced the movement around him. The movement attaches itself to Bernie b/c he has a 40-yr record of supporting its goals (and also b/c people believe he is honest). If Bernie supports Hillary or her policies, the movement moves away from him. When people ask "What if Bernie supports Hillary?" almost every Sanders supporter I've seen replies "Bernie doesn't make my decisions for me" or "I like Bernie, but I'm not in this for Bernie." One of the fundamental differences btw this movement and past ones is that it is profoundly anti-authoritarian and NOT personality-driven. It's far less personality-driven than the Dean campaign was.
So, in answer to your question: can I prevent (this outcome) without Sanders' support?
Do you mean the outcome of Hillary or Trump "winning" the election? No, I probably can't stop the MSM from calling that result or corrupt politicians from certifying it, without Sanders' support.
But we can build a persistent political movement the likes of which hasn't been seen in this country for at least 70 years, and perhaps ever.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I think "they" are wrong...
They've been horribly wrong about the Sanders campaign from the beginning. They don't understand it and they don't understand that people are not buying it anymore.
I know its anecdotal, but I've talked to so many people who are diehard liberals who are considering Trump if its between Trump and Hillary.
I think they are wrong about this election, the mood of the country is changing.
Sure, its possible that Clinton will say all the right things and pull out a narrow victory in November, but I think its more likely she won't. I think the Clinton camp underestimates how scary and unlikable she is.
Once you see things as they are, you can't unsee them.
Between the Clinton trash and Obama, registered Dems are only
29% of registered voters and that number is probably high. (Which is a new historical low.) The party has been dying a slow, ugly death since her hubby (you know, the guy who's been earning frequent flyer miles on the Lolita Express) stuck the knife in its heart to kill it.
Time for a new start. There is no saving or taking back what calls itself the 'Democratic' Party anymore. Same for the Pubbies, but I don't give a damn about them.
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks
Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa
From your lips to Queen Hillary's ear.
I do indeed hope that this is what she thinks.
She's wrong.
She's been losing people throughout this campaign.
In fact, Dems lost 6% of their party just in the past four years.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
We better hope she's wrong.
It would be easy for history to prove her right. In 2004 even the Green Party decided to (partially, at least) annul itself merely out of the misplaced hope that John Kerry could become President.
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
Since "history" is the history of the Clinton crime family's
dominance of the Democratic party (ca 1988-2016), of course it's easy for history to prove her right.
When it is NOT easy for history to prove an oligarch right? If you're a massively powerful tyrant, of course history proves that you will win. History is mainly the record and reflection of your power. And of course writers and thinkers (like yourself) can easily prove that nothing can be done to disturb the eternal progress of the tyrant. What kind of tyranny ISN'T the odds-on favorite for your average gambler? Isn't that kind of what tyranny is?
Hey, I'm up for the tequila-on-the-beach, watch-the-world-burn option if everybody wants to party till an inevitable apocalypse. But if we're going to do that, I suggest that we should do it IRL, and stop talking about politics, capitalism, politicians, elections, climate catastrophe, torture, war, propaganda, lies; in essence, if we're going to give up, let's give up in the most living-well-is-the-best-revenge-NOLA-till-you-die spirit of defiant fun we can muster.
Revolution or hedonism?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Preferably a southern hemisphere beach
I'll start scoping out jets with big enough tanks.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
Keep me posted! :-)
I'd love to see them before the end. Never been to the Southern Hemisphere.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw9gLjEGJrw]
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I can pack light
and my dog fits under seat.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Yes, new party or new country?
Maybe we should all just buy a little beach together somewhere and declare it the country of C99.
Then we can point and laugh from afar.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrehJovpKfo]
Oh, lovely.
A wonderful song, and a wonderful thought.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Learning from history can be dangerous
The DNC appears to be assuming that the past is a good model for the future. But phase changes like this year's election are non-linear, and they assume this at their peril.
We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg
Really awesome comment.
I think you understand this (what's happening/spirit of the age) better than I do.
You're putting what I intuit (sometimes w/out the words to express it) *really* well.
Feel free to talk more about non-linear phase change.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
This is exactly what happens
with revolutionary change. It seems to appear to happen overnight because most people were not paying attention to the undercurrents behind it for years. But I firmly believe we are on the brink.
I am a big believer in social movements as the impetus for major change. We have seen the Occupy Movement, the singers in Wisconsin, the Moral Mondays movement, the BLM Movement, and the movement that Bernie is giving a voice to. These movements all have very much in common and they are definitely not dying. They are growing and it only takes a relatively small percentage of people behind a social movement for it to have a lasting impact. I believe we are very close to that critical mass, if not already there.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
I think we are there as well
I think we are there as well as a lot of people figure we have nothing left to lose at this point I for one am sick of the lesser of 2 evils routine. I think the infrastructure is being laid by the millennials that are for Bernie as they are about to become the largest voting block in the country as an overall voting block.
They may 'know' that. They are WR-WR-WR-WRONG
Democrats are less than 29% of registered voters and the numbers are sinking. The DNC is broke. The 'Party' is dying and the knife was shoved into its heart by Bill Clinton and his enabling wife.
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks
Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa
They may 'know' that. They are WR-WR-WR-WRONG
Democrats are less than 29% of registered voters and the numbers are sinking. The DNC is broke. The 'Party' is dying and the knife was shoved into its heart by Bill Clinton and his enabling wife.
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks
Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa
They want only one viable party
We generally think about a two ideological party system. The Republicans start at the far right and build a coalition towards the center until they get to 50% plus 1. The Democrats start at the far left and build towards the center until they get to 50% + 1. The general election action is in the center - where will the persuadable swing voters go this cycle?
The DLC/Clinton plan is and always has been to get to 50% + 1 in the center. If you take a flanking position you run the risk of the other party getting those last few swing votes and winning. If you claim the 50% in the center that leaves 25% on the left that can't win and 25% on the right that can't win. "Which side of the bed do you want, babe?" "I'll take the middle. And all the blankets."
Take their votes if they offer them for free, but don't give them anything. One centrist party that gets all the money and all the power and can't be pushed out from either side. Bonus points of you can get the candidates of that party to wear jerseys with different colors - blue and red - providing the illusion of choice.
No matter who wins, no matter what they promise their respective bases, it's bailouts, tax cuts, reduced regulation, permits for natural resource extraction, and war-war-war. One imperial/neoliberal platform no matter whose jersey they wear.
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone
I sure hope they're thinking just like this
Because, while this is an accurate view of the left-right political organizing of both parties--traditionally--and it obviously holds some truth, it is also one-dimensional (that's not an insult, I mean it literally--it's only a horizontal axis--left/center/right)
The center they think exists--if they do think it exists--doesn't.
The real truth of politics in America is more up-down than left-right, and looks at the intersection of both those axes. And I suspect that's just the beginning of real political analysis.
May our enemies always engage in one-dimensional thinking!
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Thank you for this!
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
You're welcome.
I realized, while writing that comment, that I'm only seeing in two dimensions. Which is better than one, but maybe there's a third. Not just up and down and right and left, but?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Time. We mark progress on an analog clock face
giving a view (in elementary school) of one hour, demarked into minutes, and another hand moving faster marking seconds. So one is presented with a pictorial minute and hour. If it's a classic clock, it even ticks, an aural reminder.
We all hear that tick, tick, tick as reassuring or scary background noise. So many of us c99ers hear that sound louder every day.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
I've seen that clock
laying in an ICU bed hooked up to so many machines that you can't move. You watch the second hand go around and just before it hits 12, the minute hand moves back a half minute and then forward a minute and a half. If you ever want to torture someone, that clock is better than waterboarding.
Before the electronic era, they were called “impulse dials”
and were wired in to a remote master clock which sent them an electrical impulse every minute.
Decades ago I once watched the (then government-operated) German railway system “spring forward” to summer (= daylight) time by sending all their clocks 60 impulses in short succession. The “fall back” was accomplished by having all clock faces stand still for an hour during which no impulses were sent.
Nowadays, instead of “impulse dial” or “impulse clock,” the terminology seems to be “slave clock” (ugh).
My classic round face analog clock is tied to Colorado
and theoretically keeps perfect time. The standard/saving switch is worth being awake for, especially the autumnal one, where the clock runs FORWARD, 11 times around. Hands-free!
[did I do my math right?]
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
I reckon so, since 11 ≡ –1 (mod 12). n/t
Absolutely! I've read every comment in this thread.
My take for what it's worth:
Greens: have a lot of baggage with the name and whether true or not an image of one issue politics. Lack of involvement in the day to day machinery of governing. Those party staffers are lifers.
Other movements and parties: need to coalesce, but that requires a group of them getting together and leading the charge. There are enough numbers: yes critical mass has been reached, but fragmented. Which makes Jefferson's rabble in the the streets and off with their heads, more likely. Not a pleasant outcome. Just like the voids we have created in the ME, what will fill the voids left by the traditional two party system?
There must be a game plan; coalition; leaders agreeing to come together even if for each specific group not all of their agenda is on the table (purity); getting on all the state ballots? How?
I don't know how but a "Peoples' Independent Party" or something like it, sounds right. Getting through the hurdles including PR is the issue. Getting the tired and scared to take a chance or a risk, difficult. But...otoh, many middle-class professionals have been hit hard, and don't have a place to land.
As for the truly disenfranchised, boots on the ground, door-knocking, parking lots, house meetings: ground up.
Maybe organizing to help neighborhoods in deep trouble. Show them. We are in this together.
It's the monied who are not with us. Simple PR animations showing what is happening: with our money to the climate. Lots of talent ready to go.
I'm still thinking. If I have anything worth reading, I'll write in.
You may choose to look the other way, but you can never say again you did not know. ~ William Wiberforce
If you can donate, please! POP Money is available for bank-to-bank transfers. Email JtC to make a monthly donation.
Great comment. Please add more if you think of anything.
As far as the Greens, I like them--and I was one for a while--but it's silly for Bernie's movement to go under their umbrella when Bernie's movement is far better known than they are. And--
OK, I haven't entirely thought this out yet, so bear with me. But things are happening around Bernie's campaign that bode well for a persistent movement, coalition, or political party. Some of these things I haven't seen before, at least not to this extent, in any of the many movements or campaigns I've been in, with the notable exception of Occupy.
1)People are developing an internal symbolism (the thing with the bird leads the list, but it's not limited to that). The campaign is beginning to develop its own language. The history of the campaign is reflected in that language.
2)People are connecting the campaign to an internal set of morals that has nothing to do with transactional politics or the odds of winning. This is quite a break from all the politics I've been involved with in the past 20 years other than Occupy, and it's the main battle of this campaign. I could probably write a diary on that, so I'll leave it there for now--suffice to say that this is the development that throws a serious wrench into Clintonism, and one of the two reasons they're *really* pissed about #BernieOrBust
3)There are even indications that the bare beginnings of communities are developing around this campaign, although that may be my optimism talking. It helps that a lot of the supporters are in their 20s, when developing connections is the main (social) job you have (sort of like developing autonomous mobility is your main job when you're 1 1/2-2 years old).
Anyway, if we don't make use of the emerging language, history, and communities here, it'll be like leaving carrots to rot in the ground. And--I like the Green party, they're good people--but in 25 years they haven't managed to grab the imagination of this country like Bernie has in 10 months.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Great comment. Please add more if you think of anything.
As far as the Greens, I like them--and I was one for a while--but it's silly for Bernie's movement to go under their umbrella when Bernie's movement is far better known than they are. And--
OK, I haven't entirely thought this out yet, so bear with me. But things are happening around Bernie's campaign that bode well for a persistent movement, coalition, or political party. Some of these things I haven't seen before, at least not to this extent, in any of the many movements or campaigns I've been in, with the notable exception of Occupy.
1)People are developing an internal symbolism (the thing with the bird leads the list, but it's not limited to that). The campaign is beginning to develop its own language. The history of the campaign is reflected in that language.
2)People are connecting the campaign to an internal set of morals that has nothing to do with transactional politics or the odds of winning. This is quite a break from all the politics I've been involved with in the past 20 years other than Occupy, and it's the main battle of this campaign. I could probably write a diary on that, so I'll leave it there for now--suffice to say that this is the development that throws a serious wrench into Clintonism, and one of the two reasons they're *really* pissed about #BernieOrBust
3)There are even indications that the bare beginnings of communities are developing around this campaign, although that may be my optimism talking. It helps that a lot of the supporters are in their 20s, when developing connections is the main (social) job you have (sort of like developing autonomous mobility is your main job when you're 1 1/2-2 years old).
Anyway, if we don't make use of the emerging language, history, and communities here, it'll be like leaving carrots to rot in the ground. And--I like the Green party, they're good people--but in 25 years they haven't managed to grab the imagination of this country like Bernie has in 10 months.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
It's something they understand well...
Coke or Pepsi...Ford or Chevy...You 'DO' have a choice after all.
With 'limited choices' oligarchs win every time.
Will you have your 'shit sandwich' on wheat or rye?
I want a Pony!
Mc the Donald’s or Burger Queen? n/t
clinton and chemical arms sales in egypt
http://www.ibtimes.com/hillary-clintons-state-department-increased-chemi...
the corruption ....it never ends with her...
did 9 months in California prison, because Neoliberal Democrats and GOP maggots work together to profit off the drug war
What if Bernie does win,
does that mean everyone here will remain a Democrat?
I already left...
I already left the Democratic Party. If Bernie wins the nomination, he has my vote. Downticket Democrats only receive my vote on a person by person basis. After 2008 and being sold a pack of lies, I am very careful with my vote now. And yes, if Hillary wins the nomination, I will not be voting for her in November.
War, War Never Changes - Fallout Series
So you've left but you'll still vote for them?
Well, who is "them?"
Anybody who accepts the Democratic label?
analysis on a case-by-case basis is what poster is proposing
As for me, I'm not interested in judging by party affiliation, but by individual's relation to money and media. Who are they raising money from, and how? Who's paying them? How do they interact with the propagandists/press? How does the press react to them (that's a big tell).
The parties are both corrupt shitpiles. Individuals? Keep your eyes open and judge each carefully as you can. What else can you do?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
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