Open Thread - 06-27-25 - Can You Tell Me, Please, Who Won?

The song, Wooden Ships, was written in 1968 by David Crosby and Stephen Stills of Crosby Stills and Nash fame, and Paul Kantner of the band Jefferson Airplane. My personal favorite of the two songs that were recorded was the Airplane version from 1969 on the album Volunteers.

The song was about a group of nuclear war survivors adrift on a wooden ship after both sides of the conflict were annihilated. After survivors of both sides meet one another, one ask of the other, "Can you tell me, please, who won?"

Three days after a cease fire agreement in what is being called The 12-Day War between Israel and Iran, I am asking that same question.

Wooden_boat.jpg
Attribution: Wikimedia Commons

Both sides are claiming victory.

Both sides are also claiming they acted in self defense.

I find this incredibly disingenuous that Israel would claim its naked aggression as "self defense" after their sneak attack was aided and abetted by the United States, which included an initial subterfuge head fake and later by joining in on the bombing of Iran with so called bunker busting bombs.

Clearly, Iran acted in self defense in launching barrage after barrage of missiles into Israel.

Both sides sustained massive damage in the attacks. Images have been circulated of the rubble and confusion from Iran, while a black out of images of damage was imposed by Israel, supposedly because of security concerns in the fog of war.

In a modern world of AI fakes and Photoshop wizardry, can we really be sure about any of it?

I do find it curious though, that Israel, who in past conflicts would barrel ahead on its own course and listen to no one in regards to their aggression, would suddenly agree to a cease fire, especially after their claims of having Iran on the ropes. If that claim was true why would they quit? The claim that they only wanted Iran's nuclear bomb capability destroyed is turned on its head with the later claim by the US that regime change was the goal.

So which is it?

The bizarre actions by the US president is another clue as to who the true victors in this conflict are. It's been said that Israel was handed their butt in this war and asked for the cease fire because they were about to run out of air defense ammunition and without it stood to be annihilated. Who knows? I don't. But it helps to make a little sense of it all, if that is the case. And if this is the case why would Iran stop and give Israel the opportunity to resupply their air defenses?

Anyway, I doubt this is all over. But, again, who really knows in this world of endless rabbit holes.

Which brings to mind another Jefferson Airplane song, White Rabbit, a song about hallucinatory non realities. An apt song for living in today's illusory interpretation of truth.

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are we not entertained?

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QMS's picture

@JtC
.
seem to go hand in hand these days
one of the tricks is being able to distinguish
betwixt the two Wink

thanks for the OD's

BTW, always suspected the other side won.

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Zionism is a social disease

@QMS
of disco music in the 70s, I consider most entertainment as noise. That's when politics took a turn for the worse as well, IMHO.

BTW, always suspected the other side won.

Me too.

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enhydra lutris's picture

for breakfast. Shortly thereafter, UPS dropped off a 110# box containing a picnic table for our patio, should be all weather, so way cool. We unboxed it in the driveway and carried the pieces to its final destination and I shall soon begin to assemble it.

Speaking of building or assembling things, it is IWW Day. Yay hooray. I'm gonna just throw an IWW song collection into the pot without previewing it and beat feet toward el patio.

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

@enhydra lutris
to RTFM, and make sure you're in the English section that typically starts on page 1,059, right after all the safety warnings.

Thanks for the Wobblies reminder and the tunage. Workers of the world unite! Except for picnic table construction, with that you're on your own. Good luck!

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Always, always...

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp
always, always.

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Cassiodorus's picture

(though I'm sure Marty wrote the love lyrics)

"Soon be in another country, yeah." It can be a theme song for the forthcoming exodus, as Trump makes America small again.

Of course, the crown jewel of Paul songs of escape is this one:

And this one, also written with David Crosby:

The plot for all this was cadged from Robert A. Heinlein's Methuselah's Children. Today one imagines that the Great Dream of Outer Space will end with the pollution of near-Earth orbit.

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"The proletariat needs to become like a family" -- Zoya

@Cassiodorus
of the Airplane and the Starship. I spent many a night listening while watching the swirling hallucinogenic paisley patterns on the ceiling. I still have all of their albums, but my favorite, Blows Against the Empire, I'm sure doesn't have many grooves left on it. The addition of Jerry Garcia made it double plus good.

Maybe trump was selected for MASSA since the US is a little too big for its britches lately. He is the bankruptcy king after all.

Thanks for the tunes, Cass.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

.
Following your thoughts has led me back to Iran's massive holdings of fossil fuels. And controlling Iran's strategic reserves is the only reason for regime change there, from the US point of view. The US is projecting that China will be reliant on Iran's oil, so if the US controls that oil, it will control China. So it presumes.

If you scroll down through THIS LIST of News Stories — just looking at the titles — you can catch a tiny glimpse of the only global geopolitics that matter to the Rest of the World. The World sees the West as merely bashing itself to death. Except for its natural resources, the West is a marginalized economic zone. Its economic activity no longer has a meaningful impact on the New World that is taking form.

This is why the narrative of the West makes no sense and why it falls apart when it is closely examined. It is no longer part of the world of Tomorrow. The existence of a US-centric or Euro-centric Civilization is shattered and fragmented — this out-of-date perception is engaged in deleting itself. All failing Empires fall apart this way. It is a very long slide down into some kind of half-remembered history of a former reality. Only a lingering hallucination persists.

Can You Tell Me, Please, Who Won?
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@Pluto's Republic
to the list, and another possible reason for the attack:

Historic Moment: Part of New Silk Road From China to Iran is Complete

Funny we don't hear about that in the mainstream media.

Thanks, P.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

@JtC

.....and profoundly important as the New Silk Road exists in this world. And that it is coming to fruition in our lifetime. It will change the world and empower humanity in unimaginable ways. The countries that it touches so far have experienced strong GDP growth and are undergoing social transformation. Advanced education is becoming a national goal. The Belt and Road is one of those remarkable human visions, like the pyramids or the great cathedrals that fascinate the human imagination. They all suggest a higher power that comes through the enhanced connections between individual human beings forming a collective whole mind — one of the forbidden secrets forcefully withheld from public knowledge and awareness. (Such as the anti-communist insanity and anti-socialist rhetoric that keeps humanity enslaved by the elite.) All of these achievements involve incredible feats of engineering and mathematics. The Masonry and many secret societies grew out of such projects, and the finished projects, themselves, became evolutionary triggers. But we cannot yet see this. That's why the Belt snd Road is so feared and loathed in the West. It establishes connections between individuals to cast a harsh light on the manufactured wars and false gods that undermine and waste the collective powers of humanity.

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soryang's picture

@Pluto's Republic

Thanks for your commentary PR. I had some unexpressed reflections yesterday contemplating the "old song" I posted and the contrast between the wasteland at the end of the road to war, measured against a path to peace and prosperity. This is a central theme in the East. It's promise is rooted in the culture and born of thousands of years of continuous experience. Necessarily, the "realists" in the west are skeptical and seek to discredit this historical current. I wasn't going to comment on this because the topic seems too ambitious but your comments encourage me to do so anyway.

I think some analysts whom I don't deny are China experts in a formal academic sense, try to dismiss the concept of China as a civilizational state, spreading its influence by the power of its cultural example and way of doing things. They are not using an analysis I learned in a class on jurisprudence. This is penumbral analysis. One word or concept has many different applications. As one approaches the core meaning there is cohesion and certainty, as one enters the penumbra the concept starts to lose its applicability gradually. The loss of cohesion doesn't happen at a "terminator" that defines the meaning in all circumstances. It isn't black and white. It depends on circumstances in each instance and requires insight, experience and competence to discern. Yet many people cannot move beyond "You're wit me, or agin me." This is the language of propaganda.

Only in the most extreme circumstance, should one abandon the central values of harmony and peace. And even then one should be circumspect and act with great restraint. To abandon these values and resort to violence, signifies loss, poor leadership, poor governance and portends failure or worse. Sometimes, simply letting things take their course, is the way. One should not lightly abandon reciprocity. It can ignite a cascade of damaging events.

Civilizational influence does not necessarily equate to being "civilized" in all respects and at all times. But in the case of traditional East Asian thought, it's obvious that harmony and a natural order of things are to be valued highly; these values were observed to greater and lesser degrees over the centuries, in China and Korea and probably other Asian states, regardless of their unique national identities. Just because one values harmony as a desired cultural value, pursuing humanist goals that only peace affords, doesn't mean that you don't need an army to defend against barbarians or police to guard against public disorder, subversion, and even domestic civil strife. However preparing for conflict and war isn't a way of life as it is in the barbarian world, that is, as in the west.

The best way to avoid strife and disorder is to provide for your own people. This is done by promoting an ethical and behavioral code that respects reciprocal social obligations and rituals, like the ritual of diplomacy for example, respecting others, honoring agreements, and faithfully executing your duties, whether political or commercial. Cooperation in contrast to taking advantage of the other, or just taking from the other, the barbarian practice. In a related vein, it is best to promote learning, merit and achievement over who you know and who one sucks up to. The advisor to the emperor is supposed to give the best advice possible, even if it means telling him, at the pain of death, what he doesn't want to hear. In the cynical west, this is regarded as naive. Who does this in the US and has a future? The west has lost sight of the principle of civic virtue, if it ever was a priority. The west operates on the might makes right principle. The strongest take all. Whatever I can get away with. Tell your superiors what they don't want to hear? You must be kidding. Nihilism rules. This is a behavioral pattern that has very limited utility. It has a short lifespan. The rule of the jungle. In the short run, it may not appear to be so. Over the centuries it seems to be the way.

fwiw

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語必忠信 行必正直

QMS's picture

@soryang
.
.
highlighting the east vs. west approaches to foreign relations.
Thanks for explaining this.

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Zionism is a social disease

soryang's picture

@QMS

Your comments prompted me as well. I learned the character 趣 from you too.

You probably saw this etymology 字源 web site before:

Chinese Etymology

I saw a collection of oracle bones at the Taipei National Museum once a long time ago. Turtle shells, and scapulas from oxen.

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語必忠信 行必正直

@Pluto's Republic accomplishment. I have followed it through numerous countries, ending with the canal in China the tour guide said he "built".
I am impressed by the new railway route, and hope all involved benefit.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

soryang's picture

low cost estimate for each missile- 4 million.

“That hit ended the war," he said. "I don’t want to use an example of Hiroshima. I don’t want to use an example of Nagasaki. But that was essentially the same thing. That ended that war. This ended (this) war.”

But I just did.

Tweet implies that these people might be NK defectors, but nothing about the six Americans has been disclosed. They are obviously trying to provoke a North Korean response and at the same time discredit the newly elected democratic administration which has basically reinstated prohibitions on provocative actions against North Korea. Thanks ally.

I don't think this is over by any means. The strategy against Iran in particular goes way back...
Thanks for the OT JtC!

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語必忠信 行必正直

@soryang
Trump is getting bad feedback from his advisors or his ego doesn't allow himself to listen to them at all. Either way it's not a good look. His mouth gets ahead of his mind too easily.

Thanks for the tweets or Xs or whatever they're called now, my friend.

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orlbucfan's picture

on your weekly diary cos of the tech updates you're doing on the site. Now, I just check in cos I love the tunes. I've got a vinyl collection that a dear college housemate pointed out would be worth a small $$fortune. He lives near me, was a very successful lawyer (now retired), and commented on it again a few years ago. I never cared. I collected the music cos I liked it, and could have cared less about the monetary value. Still don't. I have to say the popular musack now is just that: Rap/Hip-Hop and pop musack. Stay safe. Smile

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Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.

@orlbucfan
have a large album collection. The vinyl itself is in good condition even though they were well used, I always took good care of them, they were the most important thing in my life back in the day. Now, the condition of the album covers, that's a different story. I loved reading them while listening, not to mention they made great rolling trays.

Analog vinyl has made a big comeback, but like you, I don't care about that. My son who grew up hearing all of that music will inherit them some day.

There is some really good music now-a-days but you really have to hunt for it.

You stay safe as well there in gator land. Hurricane season is almost upon us. I live in East Texas where we have both as well.

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One of these days the string is going to break!

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-expects-iran-inspections-bombs-dro...

President Donald Trump at a press conference on Friday said he expects Iran to work with international inspectors to verify it doesn't restart its nuclear program, warning in a separate response that if Iran can still enrich weapons-grade material he would "without question" bomb the country again.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump-terminating-trade-discussions-can...

U.S. President Donald Trump says he's ending all trade discussions with Canada while signalling he may impose a blanket tariff to hit back at Ottawa for imposing a tax on web giants.

"We will let Canada know the Tariff that they will be paying to do business with the United States of America within the next seven-day period," Trump said in a social media post Friday.

Canada and the U.S. have been locked in negotiations to get Trump to lift his punishing tariffs on Canadian goods, levies that have already led to major economic dislocations, job losses and a drop in southbound exports. Trump and Prime Minister Mark Carney agreed at the G7 last week to reach some agreement on the trade dispute within 30 days — a timeline that is now very much in doubt.

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@humphrey
his mind is a yoyo as well.

Humphrey, snoopydawg hasn't posted here since the 20th, a week ago. That's not like her. I know you and her have X accounts, can you access her account to see if she's posted anything there since the 20th?

I don't mind if she's taking some time off or has moved on, I don't begrudge anyone for that, but I'm getting a bit concerned for her.

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@JtC

quite noticeable. Unfortunately I do not know what her twitter handle is so I have no way of contacting her.

OTC has previously had contact with snoopy so maybe she reach out to her.

I thought that she might have gone camping but even then she attempts to stay in touch.

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@humphrey
I have her email but she uses a filter that's almost impossible to get by. Maybe you're right about a camping trip. Let's hope so.

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@humphrey that her email account rejected my emails, both my personal and business email accounts. We communicated through the pms.
I know she and Sam bug out ahead of the July 4th fireworks, but typical a couple of days before.
I have her snail mail address and may send her a letter, just to see if everything is ok.
Her x hashtag is snoopydawg, iirc. I do not use my x account for professional reasons. FB and X are those places where lawyers get swarmed for free legal advice.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp

anyone that resembled her. I even tried "samdawg" but got the same results.

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The as of now memory-hole residing precursor to "The 12 Day War" was called a "Tit for Tat" almost a year ago as missiles flew and lots of shit got blowed up while many folks in front of keyboards got real nervous for a bit. And this insane life we lead carried on.

We need a new term to describe military action as a "response" like from a school kid who claims he got hit first. On the playground, such conflicts rarely escalate to hypersonic missile launches.
But you cannot expect sovereign states to laugh off getting bombed. So a reasonable amount of mayhem should be okay, when the alternative is open-ended escalation.

The only thing lacking is a label for war as gesture -- "Gesticular Warfare!"

Absurd? Maybe. But it beats the heck out of Armageddon.

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I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.

@fire with fire
"Gesticular Warfare" or maybe Performative Warfare, or in Trump's case, Geriatric Testicular Warfare.

Maybe the "Tit for Tat" was a probe to gauge the reaction, both regionally and internationally. Let's hope the next iteration isn't an escalation like the last one was.

The world's gone crazy, man.

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QMS's picture

@JtC
.
how to deal with the present state of affairs.
The result of current think tank operations are
in the oven, awaiting the critical cooking temperature.
Baked in madness?

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Zionism is a social disease

soryang's picture

I'm from the suburbs of NY, so this compelling talk by Finklestein resonates. His insightful observations and moral judgement, I think, will be viewed by historians, and other scholars, hundreds of years from now, if the human race still exists, which is doubtful at this point.

Israel, Zohran Mamdani and the coming class war | Norman Finkelstein | The Big Picture

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語必忠信 行必正直

I'd assume Israel suffered more than the 5 or 10 deaths reported nightly.

Israel also really did have air superiority over Tehran and most of Iran for most of the two weeks. Being able to fly whenever and wherever you want without fear is a pretty strong win, and Iran has shown no captured pilots nor destroyed aircraft. Israel really did kill some very senior military commanders also, Iran is not denying it.

My hope is that Iran quits funding terrorism and sanctions are lifted. Iran is a large highly educated country. Iran has no reason to butt heads with Israel. They live a long ways from each other.

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@ban nock

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981