Open Thread - Thurs 27 Feb 2025 - Riding Donkeys!
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Riding Donkeys!
I started reading a new book (published in 2024) a couple of days ago. It's called Hoof Beats - How Horses Shaped Human History by William T. Taylor. It's about the relationship between humans and horses as discovered recently by archaeologists and historians. It's very good. I'm only a little under half way through it, and am looking forward to the rest of the book. But it's already taught me some new and interesting things which I thought I'd share.
Da Book! From bookshop.org, link above
Equines were domesticated later than other animals such as goats, sheep, cattle and, of course, dogs (the first domesticated animal). Before domestication horses were a prey animals, hunted and eaten by the peoples of the areas in which horses lived, the grasslands, savannah and near desert areas in Asia and far eastern Europe. Horses couldn't live in the wild in true desert areas, like Egypt or the Middle East, not enough food and water, but other equines could, like donkeys.
The first domesticated equines were therefore not horses. The first domesticated equines were donkeys and related equines. This domestication happened after humans developed agriculture, because humans had to grow things, at least for some of the time, that the domesticated animals could eat. It was around the beginning of the 2nd Milllenium BC when equines were domesticated, and depictions of humans riding equines first appeared around 1400 BC in Egypt, for instance. Chariots and wagons were pulled by domesticated equines before we developed a way to ride those animals. Wagons were first, as cattle pulled wagons, but having equines pulling these wagons was difficult, because the wagons were so heavy. So, the development of spoked wheels was integral to using equines to pull carts and wagons.
Another interesting thing the book discusses, the first equines that were ridden were not horses. They were donkeys! And that explains a really weird thing which I noticed years and years ago (along with everyone else, probably): ancient depictions of people riding 'horses' showed riders seated on or towards the rear of the animals, not in the usual horse riding position with which I was familiar. I always thought that was just artistic wev from the time, but it's not. It turns out to ride a donkey and some of the other equine breeds, it's best to sit far back on their back, towards their rear. Their body can deal with the extra weight that way. Horses don't need that.
Egyptian Rider, look at the position they are sitting in on the back of the equine: from this article on horse domestication called Horsemen
And those are a couple of tantalizing tidbits about horses and other equines! Here's the open thread - remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough, so tell us about where you're diving!
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Comments
Happy Thursday!
I was thinking about this later and realized I didn't really mean THOSE donkeys, you know, the Democrat ones :). Hah! Hope everyone's doing well this Thursday. We got some apple tree pruning to do, but first, I gotta pick off all the moss that grew over the last year on the trees. FUN!
What's up with you? Whatcha been reading, learning, doing? Let us know!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Good morning, sima, et al!
Chica, I could go on all day about horses and donkeys, their use in agriculture, exploration, war, and on and on.
I have to spend time with clients preparing for a trial this afternoon, but I will drop in some equine stories this evening.
Have a great day, and whup 'n' ride, over and under!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Looking forward to the equine stories!
And hope everything at work is smooth and simple today (like it ever is
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
domestication
Hi all, Hi Sima,
Thanks for the OT.
Just a quick drive-by, busy work day here on Thursdays...
Just wanted to mention... there seems to be a substantial body of convincing robust evidence that cats domesticated humans a very long time ago.
Have a great day everyone!
happy trails!
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.
both - Albert Einstein
Cats?
I figured they'd domesticated us a while back they've been with us a LONG time :). I haven't researched their domestication yet, but I think now I'm going to!
I hope work day is quick and painless! It's hot enough here today to sit out in the sunshine on the lawn. Weird for February, but we got the garlic manured and some of the moss off the trees.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Hola Sima, thanks for the OT. Horses and horse tack had
a major impact, but it's not something I'm really up to speed on. However, I felt a need to set the record straight on one thing. Though more or less the same animal, the original name for the symbol of the original Democratic party was a Jackass, which is specifically a male donkey. The particulars of this selection are beyond me, but it was clearly (and proudly) identified as such. Sometimes the NuDems try to appropriate this emblem to themselves, but it is not clear if the current emblem is a Jack, Jenny, or Mule, though I think that people should try to assert that it is a mule given that mules are sterile and the NuDems retain no characteristics of the original party.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
I thnk they are faking it...
Mules are super useful and good animals, so they aren't mules and they sure as heck aren't donkeys, also super useful, and even Jackasses are useful, even if only because they make other donkeys. So the Dems aren't any of these. They are now just cartoons, so maybe that's it, a cartoon donkey
Although upon a wee bit of thought, some of the Dems can be cartoon jackasses, because they make other Dems somehow!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
It has often been said
that the two happiest days in the life of a horse owner are the day they buy their first horse, and the day they part company with their last one. I've experienced both phenomena- when we had to sell the ranch, we also sold all the livestock, thank Gawd. Between those two happy days were days of more stall-mucking and hay hauling than I can bear to remember... Makes my back hurt, just thinking about it, and I can't even imagine how expensive hay is these days.
My wife used to ride all the time, and loved it, but I never got the feel for it. Mostly, I mucked. And mucked. And mucked. Mucking in the dead of winter, and busting the ice on the waterers twice a day, definitely got old. IMNSHO, the equestrian arts are best enjoyed by people with large sums of money- who can afford to have Someone Else take care of all that. But your mileage may vary!
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
Hey.. lots of work is true
We had horses from the time I was about 11 to when I was, well the last one died of old age at 33, so I was 44 then, heh. My parents only had two horses, so they weren't that hard to deal with, but dang, the mucking, the mucking...
Here on the farm, we never had horses although I planned for it, learned how to use horses in harness, and all that. Instead we'd go to a neighbors and get the muck from their stalls, put it in a manure pile to mature for a season, and put it on our fields. Good natural gardening. After we got the goats, we had our own muck producers. Goat manure is SO MUCH better for gardening than horse manure because it doesn't need to be composted and matured. The little hard balls of manure can go straight on the garden beds and break down with water over time.
As for hay hauling - husband is going to get some hay today. Ohh boy! We are both kinda looking forward to when our animals have lived out their lives. We've sworn to see the goats through old age and we will, but then... So much less work!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
True on the nature of the poop...
I did start a small compost pile of horse manure once, but never got around to using it- too many other things to do. A major reason was that we also had llamas, and their poop is garden-ready (not to mention being much easier to deal with, as coffee-bean sized pellets), just like your goats. Every spring, I would go clean up the pastures where the communal llama poop piles were, and the local garden club (they called themselves the Seedy Ladies) would come by and take every single bit of it off my hands, with great glee- some of them would pay for it with cookies.
The horses would eat roughly a quarter of a small square bale a day, per horse. A quarter of a small square was ~20lb, and they would somehow manipulate it in their gut to create 40-50lb of poop. Magic! I swear, horses can somehow turn the air they breathe into poop...
The llamas, on the other hand, would eat about 1.5-2lb of hay a day, and would produce about 1lb of utterly dry coffee beans, which they carefully and dutifully concentrated into their easy-to-maintain communal piles. With their 3-chambered stomachs, they were a great deal more efficient eaters. When you open up a new pasture for llamas, you take a coffee can of poop, and dump it where you want the communal pile to be- couldn't be easier... They also don't kill pastures. Any horse will turn a pasture into a lifeless, dusty dry lot in no time, but the llamas made the pastures look like they'd been mowed. Very tidy.
I miss the llamas- but the horses, not so much. You'll have to tell me what the going rate for horse hay is these days.
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
Horse Hay...
Well, we get orchard grass, it's to supplement the goat feed during the winter when the pastures aren't growing. It's like 24 bucks a bale, which is about 1.5 to 2 times what it was a few years ago. Bleh! Still it's good for the goats and they eat it all (unlike alfalfa where they will only eat the leaves, not the stems).
Your way of dealing with the little round coffee pellets of the llamas sounds a bit like how we deal with the goat pellets. Sometimes we compost them, but mostly we just scoop them up into a wheelbarrow and dump them on the fields/garden beds, evenly distributed, of course
.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
curious as to why a mare would go out with a jackass
.
then you've got your hinny, which is stranger still
a friend keeps a couple of miniature donkeys
but is now transitioning over to horses
start small?
thanks for the equinal OT
question everything
Yep, start small...
And sometimes remain small, like me with my dwarf goats :). As for why a mare would go out with a jackass? Forced to? Money (or equine equivalent - good hay/grain)? Necessity? Stupidity? Sounds like someone going out with a big time Dem, doesn't it?
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Anthropology fan, here.
.
Thanks for posting that c ool book report, Sima.
It immediately made me think of Clan of the Cave Bear, written by a research anthropologist and published in 1980. The book told a story that was set about 25,000 years ago, which featured a subplot about the domestication of a horse and, much later, learning to ride it. It became an anthropology-fiction best seller.
Years later, I was thinking about the story again, which I had guessed was set in northern Europe, perhaps in Russia. It was set during a time when both Neanderthal and modern Cro-Magnon humans occupied the same continents at the same time. The female main character was blond, and that is the only region on earth where blonds are indigenous, I believe. There was a lot of snow and numerous caves and earthquakes in the story. It could have been the beginning or the end of a recent ice age. At one point in the story, the horse began to run with the girl on his back, and there was a narrative understanding that an important message could be sent on horseback.
That would mean that shortly after horses were domesticated, a galloping horse would be the very fastest way a human message could be sent across land — and there would be no speed improvement for next 25,000 years! No matter how important the message was.
During that time, humans made all sorts of scientific discoveries, and even invented a wild array of religions and Gods that would keep the public busy begging for divine intervention. In the background, great Empires were born and spread across the earth — and then they collapsed and were buried. Wars were fought, many of them forgotten. Governments were formed, and later they were overthrown. Both Dictatorships and Democracies are regularly overthrown, even today. Literacy was achieved, and then later discarded. People simply could not maintain a complex system of rules without instant communications and supporting infrastructure. A motivated, enduring civilization with a shared vision and citizens who are motivated to ensure its wellbeing cannot sustain itself without direct instantaneous communications and authentic real-world gatherings, interactions, and participation.
This is the secret to China's 5,000 year old civilization. Over that time, and as far back as 11,000 years, they developed most of the new engineering innovations and observational technologies about 500 to 1,000 years before these technologies were 'discovered' in the West (the moveable-type printing press, for example. Ocean-going sailing ships, firearms, etc.) These innovations strengthened the civilization and sparked infrastructure building. Literacy and education has been core value of all Chinese governments. From pre-history to the present day, the Chinese government always holds a national exam for all graduating students. The Chinese government has always been based on meritocracy; students who do well on the yearly exams are tapped for university scholarships, government jobs, and leadership roles. There are hundreds of different languages/dialects spoken by the people of China. But all Chinese people are literate in the same written Chinese characters. (Word sounds are optional and unnecessary.) So, throughout their history the Chinese could all read and understand the nation's newspapers — even though a village 20 miles away may speak a different language. Today, the Chinese are still all on the same page, gossiping about the same news.
We don't understand that type of social cohesion in the West. We believe the Chinese should all be at each other throats. But they are not. The Chinese should hate their government. But the Chinese all know exactly what their government is doing. This is covered in dozens of newspapers on sale nationwide. Because China has a more a participatory democracy that most, government actions become part of everyday social life, even in the tiniest villages. Everything is written down, counted, analyzed, and recorded every day. It's part of everyone's cultural life without even realizing it. Their judgements are very practical. They feel connected to the government and believe that their concerns are heard. They are quick to know when their lives are getting better and they say so. They are aware when their country is on a good path.
In the US we wrote a Constitution that is based on a communications system that still travels at the speed of a horse. Much can be lost, forgotten, responses ignored, or disappeared. Elected officials in DC wouldn't want the government to work any other way. The Courts are delighted that no one can read the Constitution and comprehend its meaning. It is written in an antiquated language that masks the underlying intentions. Furthermore, it does not contain any of the wisdom gathered in the 19th and 20th centuries, when the world changed so profoundly. The document is void in scientific understanding and it is blind to ubiquitous conflicts of interest. It doesn't know which developing issues impact the lives of modern people who are alive today. All these considerations fall under the control of unaccountable political appointees on the Supreme Court who ave n o experience with the invasive technologies used by the government that negatively affect our personal lives and dignity. The Court is not concerned with the government's monstrous greed to control the world, which instantly sabotages our our choices about our own lives. If the Court tries to remain aware of the rapidly developing technologies and the emerging cultures of the 21st century, it does so at the speed of a horse.
About two-thirds of the way through the life-span of the United States, everything changed for everybody in the US and the world, due to the rapid development of technology, the industrial revolutions, evolving global economic systems, a press that is controlled and censored by the government, and competing communications that suddenly travel at the speed of light. But no one in the United States wanted a modern constitution that the People could understand and ratify. Americans feel safer when they are deceived. All other countries have modern constitutions. But not the Leader of the Free World.
This doesn't really matter anymore. It stopped mattering after 9/11. I am now convinced that denial and cluelessness are safe places for most Americans to ride out the coming decades.
Re: Clan of the Cave Bear
You must have gotten pretty deep into the series - the horses don't come into it until the second book, The Valley of Horses. (Also she meets her One True Love, a blue-eyed blond Cro-Magnon from the Vézère Valley in what is now southern France.)
Cave Bear (the first volume) is set in what is now Crimea, but she has to leave there for...reasons, and winds up on the mainland. (By the way, she is also Cro-Magnon, raised by Neanderthals, which gives her a rather...unique outlook.)
There are some good maps (in English and French) here: https://www.donsmaps.com/indexmaps.html
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
It's interesting how 'knowledge' has changed
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
OMG, I was so off!
I really appreciate your comment. Yep, I read the entire series. The Volga was on my mental map, but Crimea, no. The things that place has seen! I didn't realize the story spanned so much territory, but these tribes did have summer camps. I didn't remember France, but that makes a lot of sense.
Back then, I was focused on prehistoric behaviors and cultural patterns. I wasn't as mappish as I am now. The narrative about Neanderthrals adopting a stranded Cro-Magnon child was compelling. Not much was known about ancient DNA when the books were written. Those scientific advances came 20 years later. In the books,the Neanderthrals were portrayed as culturally brutal; recent anthropology describes Neanderthrals as more sensitive creatures. I had a hunch that there was a system of signage and trail marking along the nomadic routes. Cooperation, meet-ups, and trade between tribes could be essential to survival. Of course any evidence of that washed away long ago.
Denial and Cluelessness
Yep, that's what most Americans will use to ride out the next few decades, and perhaps what's been used in the past too? I don't know.
I love anthropology, love it. I would though (I have a degree in it
). That book Clan of the Cave Bear, came out just as I was entering college. It was one of the things that inspired me to change my focus after graduating, for a graduate degree. The other thing was traveling to Europe and remembering it from when I was younger, remembering how much I loved learning about the Greeks and Romans and Celts and Goths... and whatever :). Great memories! And thanks for the bit about China and the pasts of peoples from that part of the world. I learned some when I was younger, but not enough. I am refreshing old stuff and learning new stuff now!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I have never owned a horse but your essay brought back
memories from my childhood.
It obviously shows my age as I can recall the milkman delivering milk door to door from a wagon pulled by a horse. The animal seemed to remember the frequent stops on its route.
A representative image.
You must predate me
.
.
this is what I remember from the old milk delivery days
had a milk box at the back steps where we would put the
empty bottles and the delivery guy would pick-up the
empties and put in a batch of filled ones.
he drove an old Divco milk truck like this one
I forget the name of the local dairy now.
question everything
As best as I can recall it was in the early 50s. NT
I can remember this too..
But it was only down south, in the LA region in California, where my grandparents lived. There was a dairy nearby where they let people watch the cows being milked and then delivered that milk via a cart and horse to whoever ordered it. It was GREAT.
Hmm, actually I remember it up north too, in what became Silicon Valley, before it did. I was a bit older, don't know why I forgot the milk carts, because I loved those horses
Thanks for inspiring these great memories!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I was watching the Browsey Acres stuff on YouTube
Ronda Rousey and Travis Browne, both former MMA performers, decided at some point to plow their money into a ranch in Riverside County, and then later to branch out into a big cattle ranch in southern Oregon, where I live. They put out a lot of "Browsey Acres" videos on YouTube.
At any rate, at their place in Riverside County, they use a donkey to scare away predators that would kill their chickens, ducks, and/or goats. Just thought I would mention that.
In other news, the commercial entertainment addicts on YouTube were discussing the news, later denied, that Kathleen Kennedy is going to retire from her current task of ruining Star Wars. It's about ten minutes into their group video.
Of course there is some degree of skepticism as to whether or not anything new would happen if or when Kennedy goes away from Star Wars. But it's amusing to hear their criticisms, given that there wasn't much there to begin with -- I mean, how much can you do with an imaginary universe in which the heroes are Samurai with magical powers, the villains cling to ridiculous stereotypes, and the settings are vastly simplified or colorized versions of, I don't know, Poul Anderson or Robert Heinlein or any of the Golden Age space opera writers. Recommendation to Kennedy watchers: read. Find some of these old, dead, space opera writers. Read their stuff.
The reason people, including the famous ones, are going back to homesteading is that America is in decline, a trend evident in everything, including entertainment.
"The Democratic Party has been focused too much on pleasing people who matter too little in this society." -- Chris Cuomo
Donkeys as guards...
It works! We used alpacas for that, for a bit. Hubby got tired of being spit on, though. I dunno why, but they never spit on me. Hahah!
Our dogs work with the goats, and the chickens to keep away predators. It's just when the dogs aren't outside that we have had trouble. However, we've learned and now we don't even had that late night trouble. Those videos are very cool, thank you for introducing me to Browsey Acres!
As for Star Wars, I really liked the first three and now... neh. Would rather read a Heinlein book, much rather do that
And this is spot on:
I just wish more people could homestead.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
This gave me a good laugh
...a good laugh when I first saw it a few days ago.
I had no idea.
Thanks for the OT Sima
語必忠信 行必正直
I saw that video a while ago too...
And it really made me laugh. Thanks for sharing it. Animals are human too and can get jealous, or humans are animals or... yea, we are all in it together
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I was in court until after 6 pm,
my client lost, but was able to get in some evidence that will help him in the future. He is an elected official with a cabal gearing up for more lawsuits, and likely criminal investigations. My goal was to get evidence out in public to help in the cases coming soon.
I am fascinated with dressage. It is actually war maneuvers, with each movement being an offensive or defensive movement. Russian cavalry officers who were experts in dressage and jumping came to the US and taught the farm boys in the cavalry how to do the basics. My Dad was in the horse cavalry from 1035 until it was disbanded and transitioned to motor vehicles. in 1942. He could train a horse from a wild thing to a dependable working cow horse. So, he could ride a buck.
My uncle bought a barely ridden but expensive dappled gray gelding quarter horse. He bucked everyone off, would not reign right or left, stopped when he felt like it. He was dangerous.
Well, Dad got on him, spurred him, and the horse bucked all over the 2 acre plot, and when he started getting tired, Dad pulled the reins so that the horse could not turn his head, and ran him straight into the side of a barn. Almost knocked the horse out. Dad eased him away, the pulled the left rein and had the horse's nose to the saddle, and he ran him at the barn, and the horse turned left. That was repeated with running the horse at the barn with his nose to the right side of the saddle. He turned right, rather than smack into the barn. This was repeated several times with looser reins, nudges by the spurs, pats on the neck, "good boys", and after about 30 more minutes, the horse was bridle wise. He never bucked again, and even kids could safely ride him after his training session.
Good times with the warrior Dad.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Wow...
Your Dad really knew his stuff with horses! I love dressage, I have to admit, although I never did it. My riding was always western, heh. It makes tons of sense that dressage originated with warfare. So, here's a video of a song put out about 3 years after I was born (the song is older than that, I think) showing the Russian cavalry riding across the hills. It's really cool!
I'm sorry court took so long and your client lost, but at least you got the evidence public.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Great video
Greeks started the horse as an essential war weapon.
I rode western, too, a bit of barrel racing. Mostly rode herding cattle. Even on my beloved donkey, Tar Baby, a/k/a The Tar. I competed in dressage to third level, but managed to train my horse to Prix St. George. It was just a stress reliever from work for decades.
I hate losing. There was something odd about the trial. The judge was going off on a tangent, misuse of county funds, when the trial was about determining who owned a dog. It was a doggy ownership excuse to try to get info about some misuse of animal control county funds. The charity dog shelter is run by the animal control officer's wife. Animal control officer is now sheriff, and has political enemies. Lawfare. Nothing new.
As for donkeys, their backs slant downward from hips to shoulders. Their center of gravity is farther back behind their shoulders than horses. To keep their weight equilibrium, sit back. I know from my experiences that introducing a donkey to riding is MUCH easier than horses!
It was wonderful to think back on my experiences with the equines, especially on a day that didn't have that desired outcome, chica.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Dressage brought down Park Geun-hye
And led to her impeachment. She had a "friend" as wikipedia calls her, whom she had known for many years, Choi Soon-sil, who was the daughter of a cult leader who had been an adviser to her dictator father. Allegedly Choi effectively acted as Park Geun-hye's chief of staff, gate keeper, and managed her calendar. Evidence on an infamous lap top was reported to show that she even wrote Park's speeches. It was also reported she arranged to provide former President Park with intravenous sleep aids. In any case, the effective owner of Samsung was implicated in giving bribes to Choi, in the ultimate form of at least one dressage horse, stable facilities, etc., in Germany for political favors.
Insight: How ties to an 'equestrian princess' landed Samsung at center of a scandal
Chung Yoo-ra was Choi's daughter.
Seems like yesterday.
語必忠信 行必正直
Well, well,
Caveat: Germany is crazy about dressage, but I can't think of a comparable country. It is a niche sport everywhere else.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
It seems they sponsor
...a lot of sports. I never checked before but Samsung does have a soccer team, baseball team, and basketball team, it's not surprising. Lee would have sponsored whatever Choi for her daughter wanted to get the president onboard with the National Pension Fund selling him more shares so he could get the controlling interest in the group. Lee actually went to jail for this which kind of surprised me when it happened.
I know next to nothing about dressage although I was once close to someone who had some experience when she was young. She went through the buying and raising horses and then later selling them off. She loved animals. These were just ordinary horses. My brother was into thoroughbreds, and racing big time, that was his pastime.
語必忠信 行必正直
Florida is where
Best to keep careful watch on horses in all those fancy barns and stables, since alligators can get inside their stalls.
Some of the best sport horses in the world are bred and sold from Florida horse farms.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
There's an area on I-75
Where all the horsey set are. Knew an attorney who worked over there.
語必忠信 行必正直