Open Thread - Thurs 27 Feb 2025 - Riding Donkeys!

Riding Donkeys!

I started reading a new book (published in 2024) a couple of days ago. It's called Hoof Beats - How Horses Shaped Human History by William T. Taylor. It's about the relationship between humans and horses as discovered recently by archaeologists and historians. It's very good. I'm only a little under half way through it, and am looking forward to the rest of the book. But it's already taught me some new and interesting things which I thought I'd share.


Da Book! From bookshop.org, link above

Equines were domesticated later than other animals such as goats, sheep, cattle and, of course, dogs (the first domesticated animal). Before domestication horses were a prey animals, hunted and eaten by the peoples of the areas in which horses lived, the grasslands, savannah and near desert areas in Asia and far eastern Europe. Horses couldn't live in the wild in true desert areas, like Egypt or the Middle East, not enough food and water, but other equines could, like donkeys.

The first domesticated equines were therefore not horses. The first domesticated equines were donkeys and related equines. This domestication happened after humans developed agriculture, because humans had to grow things, at least for some of the time, that the domesticated animals could eat. It was around the beginning of the 2nd Milllenium BC when equines were domesticated, and depictions of humans riding equines first appeared around 1400 BC in Egypt, for instance. Chariots and wagons were pulled by domesticated equines before we developed a way to ride those animals. Wagons were first, as cattle pulled wagons, but having equines pulling these wagons was difficult, because the wagons were so heavy. So, the development of spoked wheels was integral to using equines to pull carts and wagons.

Another interesting thing the book discusses, the first equines that were ridden were not horses. They were donkeys! And that explains a really weird thing which I noticed years and years ago (along with everyone else, probably): ancient depictions of people riding 'horses' showed riders seated on or towards the rear of the animals, not in the usual horse riding position with which I was familiar. I always thought that was just artistic wev from the time, but it's not. It turns out to ride a donkey and some of the other equine breeds, it's best to sit far back on their back, towards their rear. Their body can deal with the extra weight that way. Horses don't need that.


Egyptian Rider, look at the position they are sitting in on the back of the equine: from this article on horse domestication called Horsemen

And those are a couple of tantalizing tidbits about horses and other equines! Here's the open thread - remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough, so tell us about where you're diving!

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Sima's picture

I was thinking about this later and realized I didn't really mean THOSE donkeys, you know, the Democrat ones :). Hah! Hope everyone's doing well this Thursday. We got some apple tree pruning to do, but first, I gotta pick off all the moss that grew over the last year on the trees. FUN!

What's up with you? Whatcha been reading, learning, doing? Let us know!

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Chica, I could go on all day about horses and donkeys, their use in agriculture, exploration, war, and on and on.
I have to spend time with clients preparing for a trial this afternoon, but I will drop in some equine stories this evening.
Have a great day, and whup 'n' ride, over and under!

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Sima's picture

@on the cusp
And hope everything at work is smooth and simple today (like it ever is Smile ).

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

dystopian's picture

Hi all, Hi Sima,

Thanks for the OT.

Just a quick drive-by, busy work day here on Thursdays...

Just wanted to mention... there seems to be a substantial body of convincing robust evidence that cats domesticated humans a very long time ago. Wink

Have a great day everyone!

happy trails!

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.
both - Albert Einstein

Sima's picture

@dystopian
I figured they'd domesticated us a while back they've been with us a LONG time :). I haven't researched their domestication yet, but I think now I'm going to!

I hope work day is quick and painless! It's hot enough here today to sit out in the sunshine on the lawn. Weird for February, but we got the garlic manured and some of the moss off the trees.

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

enhydra lutris's picture

a major impact, but it's not something I'm really up to speed on. However, I felt a need to set the record straight on one thing. Though more or less the same animal, the original name for the symbol of the original Democratic party was a Jackass, which is specifically a male donkey. The particulars of this selection are beyond me, but it was clearly (and proudly) identified as such. Sometimes the NuDems try to appropriate this emblem to themselves, but it is not clear if the current emblem is a Jack, Jenny, or Mule, though I think that people should try to assert that it is a mule given that mules are sterile and the NuDems retain no characteristics of the original party.

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Sima's picture

@enhydra lutris
Mules are super useful and good animals, so they aren't mules and they sure as heck aren't donkeys, also super useful, and even Jackasses are useful, even if only because they make other donkeys. So the Dems aren't any of these. They are now just cartoons, so maybe that's it, a cartoon donkey Smile

Although upon a wee bit of thought, some of the Dems can be cartoon jackasses, because they make other Dems somehow!

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

usefewersyllables's picture

that the two happiest days in the life of a horse owner are the day they buy their first horse, and the day they part company with their last one. I've experienced both phenomena- when we had to sell the ranch, we also sold all the livestock, thank Gawd. Between those two happy days were days of more stall-mucking and hay hauling than I can bear to remember... Makes my back hurt, just thinking about it, and I can't even imagine how expensive hay is these days.

My wife used to ride all the time, and loved it, but I never got the feel for it. Mostly, I mucked. And mucked. And mucked. Mucking in the dead of winter, and busting the ice on the waterers twice a day, definitely got old. IMNSHO, the equestrian arts are best enjoyed by people with large sums of money- who can afford to have Someone Else take care of all that. But your mileage may vary!

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

Sima's picture

@usefewersyllables
We had horses from the time I was about 11 to when I was, well the last one died of old age at 33, so I was 44 then, heh. My parents only had two horses, so they weren't that hard to deal with, but dang, the mucking, the mucking...

Here on the farm, we never had horses although I planned for it, learned how to use horses in harness, and all that. Instead we'd go to a neighbors and get the muck from their stalls, put it in a manure pile to mature for a season, and put it on our fields. Good natural gardening. After we got the goats, we had our own muck producers. Goat manure is SO MUCH better for gardening than horse manure because it doesn't need to be composted and matured. The little hard balls of manure can go straight on the garden beds and break down with water over time.

As for hay hauling - husband is going to get some hay today. Ohh boy! We are both kinda looking forward to when our animals have lived out their lives. We've sworn to see the goats through old age and we will, but then... So much less work!

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

usefewersyllables's picture

@Sima

I did start a small compost pile of horse manure once, but never got around to using it- too many other things to do. A major reason was that we also had llamas, and their poop is garden-ready (not to mention being much easier to deal with, as coffee-bean sized pellets), just like your goats. Every spring, I would go clean up the pastures where the communal llama poop piles were, and the local garden club (they called themselves the Seedy Ladies) would come by and take every single bit of it off my hands, with great glee- some of them would pay for it with cookies.

The horses would eat roughly a quarter of a small square bale a day, per horse. A quarter of a small square was ~20lb, and they would somehow manipulate it in their gut to create 40-50lb of poop. Magic! I swear, horses can somehow turn the air they breathe into poop...

The llamas, on the other hand, would eat about 1.5-2lb of hay a day, and would produce about 1lb of utterly dry coffee beans, which they carefully and dutifully concentrated into their easy-to-maintain communal piles. With their 3-chambered stomachs, they were a great deal more efficient eaters. When you open up a new pasture for llamas, you take a coffee can of poop, and dump it where you want the communal pile to be- couldn't be easier... They also don't kill pastures. Any horse will turn a pasture into a lifeless, dusty dry lot in no time, but the llamas made the pastures look like they'd been mowed. Very tidy.

I miss the llamas- but the horses, not so much. You'll have to tell me what the going rate for horse hay is these days.

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

QMS's picture

.
then you've got your hinny, which is stranger still
a friend keeps a couple of miniature donkeys
but is now transitioning over to horses
start small?

e790497578c23d438c8f7169c2ab740a-180933432.jpg

thanks for the equinal OT

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question everything

Sima's picture

@QMS
And sometimes remain small, like me with my dwarf goats :). As for why a mare would go out with a jackass? Forced to? Money (or equine equivalent - good hay/grain)? Necessity? Stupidity? Sounds like someone going out with a big time Dem, doesn't it?

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Pluto's Republic's picture

.
Thanks for posting that c ool book report, Sima.

It immediately made me think of Clan of the Cave Bear, written by a research anthropologist and published in 1980. The book told a story that was set about 25,000 years ago, which featured a subplot about the domestication of a horse and, much later, learning to ride it. It became an anthropology-fiction best seller.

Years later, I was thinking about the story again, which I had guessed was set in northern Europe, perhaps in Russia. It was set during a time when both Neanderthal and modern Cro-Magnon humans occupied the same continents at the same time. The female main character was blond, and that is the only region on earth where blonds are indigenous, I believe. There was a lot of snow and numerous caves and earthquakes in the story. It could have been the beginning or the end of a recent ice age. At one point in the story, the horse began to run with the girl on his back, and there was a narrative understanding that an important message could be sent on horseback.

That would mean that shortly after horses were domesticated, a galloping horse would be the very fastest way a human message could be sent across land — and there would be no speed improvement for next 25,000 years! No matter how important the message was.

During that time, humans made all sorts of scientific discoveries, and even invented a wild array of religions and Gods that would keep the public busy begging for divine intervention. In the background, great Empires were born and spread across the earth — and then they collapsed and were buried. Wars were fought, many of them forgotten. Governments were formed, and later they were overthrown. Both Dictatorships and Democracies are regularly overthrown, even today. Literacy was achieved, and then later discarded. People simply could not maintain a complex system of rules without instant communications and supporting infrastructure. A motivated, enduring civilization with a shared vision and citizens who are motivated to ensure its wellbeing cannot sustain itself without direct instantaneous communications and authentic real-world gatherings, interactions, and participation.

This is the secret to China's 5,000 year old civilization. Over that time, and as far back as 11,000 years, they developed most of the new engineering innovations and observational technologies about 500 to 1,000 years before these technologies were 'discovered' in the West (the moveable-type printing press, for example. Ocean-going sailing ships, firearms, etc.) These innovations strengthened the civilization and sparked infrastructure building. Literacy and education has been core value of all Chinese governments. From pre-history to the present day, the Chinese government always holds a national exam for all graduating students. The Chinese government has always been based on meritocracy; students who do well on the yearly exams are tapped for university scholarships, government jobs, and leadership roles. There are hundreds of different languages/dialects spoken by the people of China. But all Chinese people are literate in the same written Chinese characters. (Word sounds are optional and unnecessary.) So, throughout their history the Chinese could all read and understand the nation's newspapers — even though a village 20 miles away may speak a different language. Today, the Chinese are still all on the same page, gossiping about the same news.

We don't understand that type of social cohesion in the West. We believe the Chinese should all be at each other throats. But they are not. The Chinese should hate their government. But the Chinese all know exactly what their government is doing. This is covered in dozens of newspapers on sale nationwide. Because China has a more a participatory democracy that most, government actions become part of everyday social life, even in the tiniest villages. Everything is written down, counted, analyzed, and recorded every day. It's part of everyone's cultural life without even realizing it. Their judgements are very practical. They feel connected to the government and believe that their concerns are heard. They are quick to know when their lives are getting better and they say so. They are aware when their country is on a good path.

In the US we wrote a Constitution that is based on a communications system that still travels at the speed of a horse. Much can be lost, forgotten, responses ignored, or disappeared. Elected officials in DC wouldn't want the government to work any other way. The Courts are delighted that no one can read the Constitution and comprehend its meaning. It is written in an antiquated language that masks the underlying intentions. Furthermore, it does not contain any of the wisdom gathered in the 19th and 20th centuries, when the world changed so profoundly. The document is void in scientific understanding and it is blind to ubiquitous conflicts of interest. It doesn't know which developing issues impact the lives of modern people who are alive today. All these considerations fall under the control of unaccountable political appointees on the Supreme Court who ave n o experience with the invasive technologies used by the government that negatively affect our personal lives and dignity. The Court is not concerned with the government's monstrous greed to control the world, which instantly sabotages our our choices about our own lives. If the Court tries to remain aware of the rapidly developing technologies and the emerging cultures of the 21st century, it does so at the speed of a horse.

About two-thirds of the way through the life-span of the United States, everything changed for everybody in the US and the world, due to the rapid development of technology, the industrial revolutions, evolving global economic systems, a press that is controlled and censored by the government, and competing communications that suddenly travel at the speed of light. But no one in the United States wanted a modern constitution that the People could understand and ratify. Americans feel safer when they are deceived. All other countries have modern constitutions. But not the Leader of the Free World.

This doesn't really matter anymore. It stopped mattering after 9/11. I am now convinced that denial and cluelessness are safe places for most Americans to ride out the coming decades.

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memories from my childhood.

It obviously shows my age as I can recall the milkman delivering milk door to door from a wagon pulled by a horse. The animal seemed to remember the frequent stops on its route.

A representative image.

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QMS's picture

@humphrey
.
.

this is what I remember from the old milk delivery days
had a milk box at the back steps where we would put the
empty bottles and the delivery guy would pick-up the
empties and put in a batch of filled ones.

he drove an old Divco milk truck like this one
I forget the name of the local dairy now.

0f63161bc0897a51998c6717fc11b0ec-2171874614.jpg
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question everything

@QMS

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Cassiodorus's picture

Ronda Rousey and Travis Browne, both former MMA performers, decided at some point to plow their money into a ranch in Riverside County, and then later to branch out into a big cattle ranch in southern Oregon, where I live. They put out a lot of "Browsey Acres" videos on YouTube.

At any rate, at their place in Riverside County, they use a donkey to scare away predators that would kill their chickens, ducks, and/or goats. Just thought I would mention that.

In other news, the commercial entertainment addicts on YouTube were discussing the news, later denied, that Kathleen Kennedy is going to retire from her currently task of ruining Star Wars. It's about ten minutes into their group video.

Of course there is some degree of skepticism as to whether or not anything new would happen if or when Kennedy goes away from Star Wars. But it's amusing to hear their criticisms, given that there wasn't much there to begin with -- I mean, how much can you do with an imaginary universe in which the heroes are Samurai with magical powers, the villains cling to ridiculous stereotypes, and the settings are vastly simplified or colorized versions of, I don't know, Poul Anderson or Robert Heinlein or any of the Golden Age space opera writers. Recommendation to Kennedy watchers: read. Find some of these old, dead, space opera writers. Read their stuff.

The reason people, including the famous ones, are going back to homesteading is that America is in decline, a trend evident in everything, including entertainment.

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"The Democratic Party has been focused too much on pleasing people who matter too little in this society." -- Chris Cuomo