Open Thread - Thurs 14 Dec 2023 - Dogs! Part I

Dogs, Dogs, Dogs - Wow

I thought I'd present a few bits of knowledge I've gotten from one of the papers in the book on dogs I'm very slowly reading. The book's in pdf format, for some reason that makes it slower to read - I guess because I can't read it in bed before I go to sleep! The book is entitled Dogs, Past and Present: An Interdisciplinary Perspective. It's very, very academic - each article has like 4-10 pages of bibliography! Smile I found it at Archaeopress, a publisher in England where I frequently get books about archaeology for my research. The book is available as a pdf through open access, which is an English/British library system which allows online access to research publications; it's sort of like going to the library on your computer at home.

big_help_feb_11.jpg
Jaska would sweep the floor, or do the scrapping, if she had thumbs! She's a big help!

The paper with bits I'm going to highlight is chapter 2.3 in the book and starts on page 72. The paper is titled 'Why Wolves Became Dogs: Interdisciplinary Questions on Domestication' and it's written by Juliane Bräuer and Blanca Vidal Orga. Both are from Universities in Germany. The paper opens by discussing some areas where dogs show especially remarkable skills, skills they have from birth, compared to other animals. The skills are in three social-cognitive domains.

The first social-cognitive domain in which dogs are skilled is communication with sounds and signals. For example, each dog uses different kinds of barking for different kinds of things it wishes to communicate to humans. Dogs can practice and understand gaze alteration - in which the dog or human looks at something which isn't in their immediate area to indicate interest of whatever kind. Dogs understand human communications, including words, 'iconic signs' and gestures.

Dogs are born, it seems, with this ability to understand humans and follow directed input. Directed input in this case is a human pointing at something, so the dog looks in the direction pointed and goes to get or do whatever is indicated. Or perhaps a human is staring at something and the dog turns to stare at it. An example - your dog follows your gaze as you look at the place you hid their favorite toy. They then go to that place and ask for their toy.

'Free ranging dogs and shelter dogs with limited human contact are also able to use', to understand, human gestures (such as pointing) to find hidden food. This is a skill apes, our close animal cousins, perform much worse at, at least at first. Wolves, hand-reared, do not do as well as dogs do at this task (although the wolves' social organization, the pack, gives them skills which dogs and humans have modified and use). But dogs can do this from at least six weeks old!

'A second social-cognitive ability that has been intensely investigated in dogs is perspective taking - the ability to assess what others can perceive.' Dogs seem to be able to know what we, their humans, can see. They know when we are paying attention to them, and when we are not, even if it's only looking. They can also assess what we can hear, or can't hear and modify their behavior accordingly. Amazing, isn't it?

The third social-cognitive domain in which dogs show special skills is cooperation. This is a behavior which is beneficial to others, and perhaps, but not necessarily, beneficial to oneself. Dogs cooperate with humans in just about everything. They hunt, they guard, they pull sleds and other things, they herd, they rescue, they signal, they search, they guide. They are companions and friends. They learn, and learn, and learn. Dogs prefer humans to other dogs in social interactions (I know, this seems nuts, but it's true, see the article, page 73, and Snoopydawg and I have talked about this in our own experiences with our dogs). The dog-human bond is much like the infant-mother bond in humans. Dogs do need special training to help humans in special instances, such as the human having a heart attack. Dogs don't recognize it immediately, they haven't been trained in how to give support and can't do that naturally. They have to learn, like humans do! When they are given time, they do learn. When the human has a problem which is obvious, like being unable to open a door, dogs learn to help very quickly. And they continue to offer that help, without reward.

That's just one chapter, and just a couple pages of that chapter, of the book. The book is intense, full of information. Some is interesting, some not. In the future, I will do a post about the evolution of dogs and what has been learned so far. For instance, we don't actually know how, or when, these cognitive skills in dogs evolved. We may never find out, but they sure are interesting to learn about! It makes one wonder, what skills do other animals like horses, or goats, or cats, have that us humans don't pay much attention to, but which makes our lives so much better?

So, thanks for reading a tiny bit about humans' best friend and here's the open thread - remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough, so tell us about where you're diving!

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Sima's picture

I hope everyone is having a great day! Me, I will be relaxing a bit, maybe, before the holiday onslaught. Or, that's the excuse Smile

We had a gorgeous sunrise yesterday. I was still up for it. Here's some pics, that I didn't take, but they show how gorgeous it was. And the first pic has a dog in it!


Here's the link to the whole series of sunrise pics from yesterday

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

janis b's picture

@Sima

I really enjoyed your essay about the nature of dogs. The sunsets were also a treat. I wonder what Jasper thought of your gorgeous sunset ; ).

My dog stories -

Scooter - My parents arrived home in the middle of the night from visiting relatives in North Carolina with a shetland sheep dog puppy. I was 13, my brother 11, and my sister 7. My grandmother, a life-long Brooklyn city dweller was beside herself, and we kids were of course elated. Scooter brought much joy to the family and lived till 15, the last few years with my husband and I after my parents moved into an apartment where he would not have enjoyed apartment life.

Duffy - She joined us before Scooter came, and after we tricked the animal rescue centre in letting us adopt her. The first time we went to the centre and found Duffy they wouldn’t give her to us because we were jean-clad university students. We fell in love with her immediately, so we created a plan to try and adopt her. First thing the next morning my husband put on a suit and tie and went in alone. End of story, Duffy lived a very good life and gave us much pleasure.

Ernie, my third and last dog was the best. She came at 8 years old as a favour for a friend who was marrying and moving to England. She loved Ernie deeply, and didn’t want to subject her to a 6 month quarantine (because there is no rabies in England, like most islands). Ernie camped with me across America, from west to east and then on to germany. She was the best dog I could ever imagine myself knowing and living with.

Dogs can truly be man’s best friend.

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Sima's picture

@janis b
You mention that your last dog was your best. I feel the same, but I wonder, is it because its then, as our time with dogs get longer and longer, that we humans realize and understand how to make good relationships with dogs? I don't know. But Jaska is definitely my best dog ever. Like Ernie was for you.

Hope your travels were good, it's good to 'see' you back! Smile

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

janis b's picture

@Sima

It sort of makes sense that with maturity and experience our relationships improve ; ). Nice catch.

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QMS's picture

Dogs in the realm of culture ..

Rin Tin Tin, Lassie, 3 Dog Night, Bowie Diamond Dogs, Pink Floyd The Dogs of War
Biden dogs bite secret service, Dog Eat Dog, Dog Gone Movie, Doggie Boogie,
Snoop Dog, Patty Griffen Wild Old Dog, Mr. Bojangles, Dog House Blues Bill Monroe,
Teach an old dog new tricks ..

Thanks for the essay. Will dog ear it for later Smile

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question everything

enhydra lutris's picture

@QMS

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Sima's picture

@QMS
Old Yeller too! Smile I love the 'will dog ear it for later' comment!

Hope your day was good, and your coming weekend is great.

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

dystopian's picture

Hi all, Hey Sima,

Doggone interesting stuff! Very cool.

I gotta fly, just thought I 'd share this pic... sorry about the watermark.

This is a street rescue ms d and I picked up in San Antonio in late 80's. He got to bird in about 25 states. Liked fish too. That was a 60 gal. marine tank, and his stool. Never could get consensus on what he was, even multiple top pro groomers and vets were not sure. His name was Goofy, and I am not allowed to name any future dogs.
dogsdigfishtoo.jpg

Have good ones all!

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.
both - Albert Einstein

QMS's picture

@dystopian

Looks in deep contemplation as to what the fishies are up to.
Who knows what crosses a doggies' mind?
thanks for sharing

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question everything

Sima's picture

@QMS
Maybe just joy and interest in watching the fish move? Or wondering how the fish breath or... who knows. Who knows.

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

dystopian's picture

@QMS Hi Capt.,

Yeah clearly there is much going on there, and how can we even guess at what levels?

The RCA Victor dog had nothing on Goofy. Smile

If we let his hair grow, he was just a broomstick short of being a dustmop.

take care brother!

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.
both - Albert Einstein

Sima's picture

@dystopian
I can understand why you aren't allowed to name any future dogs, though Hahaha! Smile Heh. My husband is the same, he named our cats Ash, Hash, and Puffy White Feet. We have a heck of a time teaching other humans that Ash and Hash are different cats.

It's great how interested Goofy was in the fish. I have really started to pay attention to all the things Jaska does that are kinda surprising for an animal, but make for a great relationship for a dog with a human. Directed gaze is a big one. Understanding words (up to 600 or so for some dogs, around 300 for most). Her big word is 'OK'. She waits until she hears that, then does what I've approved of her doing. She knows what a thumbs up means. I taught that to her as a puppy, because my previous dog, Reyna, had lost hearing and needed the thumbs up for an approval sign, like 'OK'. Anyway, I bet Goofy was a wonderful companion!

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

dystopian's picture

@Sima Hi Sima,

Yes I think it hard for the human brain to wrap itself around what other brains are doing. We are just finding out so much about so many animals, say like bird tool usage, far more common than long thought. That 600 words is major, I think what some of the better parakeets and parrots get up to. Goofy looked at the fish like I do birds. He loved watching them.

be well!

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.
both - Albert Einstein

Sima's picture

@dystopian
I remember, in my first anthropology classes, when tool use was 'only' human. And then, oops, apes did it. So it was 'only' ape and human. And then monkeys... birds... dogs (when trained) and on and on. Ohh learning as a child that animals had no thoughts or emotions; they were just things to be used! Automatons. I knew that was bunk then, and it sure is bunk now!

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

janis b's picture

@dystopian

I can only imagine the bird brained names you'd come up with ; ).

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dystopian's picture

@janis b Hi Janis,

This will shock you I am sure, but our Parakeet said "wanna go birding?" Sometimes with 'turkey', or 'chickadee' after. Did a perfect 'Chickadee' call, and I taught it a Whip-poor-will call, and so on...

Smile

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.
both - Albert Einstein

janis b's picture

@dystopian

Did your parakeet have a name? Did the parakeet say it with your accent ; ).

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enhydra lutris's picture

you can download pdf files to it and there are open source readers available for reading them.

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Sima's picture

@enhydra lutris
It's a samsung, but I bet that would work. I could read the pdf while I'm lying in bed then! I have a laptop. It's very old. But I should get off my mumblemumble and get those pdfs onto it. That would work in bed too!

Thanks for giving me a good idea about reading pdfs! Hope your day went well Smile

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Had a beagle several years ago. This dog quite literally had a different bark for different people who came by. I had never heard of that before. Best dog ever. Someone stole her. I think that they wanted a "good" hunting dog. That's how I got her. Just wandered in the yard one day. I think her former owner dumped her because of that.

I would love to get another dog but currently I am owned by 4 cats.

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Sima's picture

@Enchantress
It took a while for us humans to understand that. So very cool that your beagle had them. And so very awful that someone stole her! That just sucks. Sad

One thing my dog does is murmur. I think it's her version of 'talking' like us humans talk. And so, I never get mad at her for it, even though she does it a lot at times. She's just being part of the group!

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

dogs?
I prefer them to most people, in fact.
But then, Dear One had to escort me safely into and out of the courthouse today. The bailiff gave escort to my client.
People! Stupid and dangerous sometimes.
I have had some really smart dogs over my lifetime. They come in very handy when a person is grieving.
They are good warning systems, as well.
Can't wait for the next part, Sima! Thanks for the OT.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Sima's picture

@on the cusp
Be safe in the court house, or wherever. People are, as you say, stupid and dangerous sometimes.

I've got so many tales about the tails in my life... err dog tails :).

Have a great weekend!

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

@Sima We were a family of 4, Mom, Dad, my brother, and me, the younger kid.
We were headed to a farm, raising cotton. A suburb (giggle), called East Gate,of Dayton, Texas, back in about '55, and I saw a white dog. I jumped off the truck tailgate, grabbed her from a ditch. Pregnant of course. Whitey. Some of the best dogs we had all the way to adulthood were Whiteys progeny. She was the first dog I rescued, and will not be the last.
I truly do not remember life without dogs, especially the ones nobody loved but me.
I remember Cisco Kid on TV, a house, when I was 6 months old. My first word was "Tico". Cisco Kid in baby speak.
At 2, I sang for the Baptist Church "Do Lord", and all the rest is dogs, until I was 4.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

picture Sima. I only get to see those when I go elsewhere since here I am surrounded by trees on a slight incline.

Thanks for the very interesting OT. I scanned it quickly and then took a side trip into Archaeopress, and I am still there actually. I'm multitasking, so I'm commenting in bits and pieces. But this chapter in the book you cited is also interesting[among the many interesting chapters]; from 3.6... Women, Power and Dogs in First Nation Societies in Northwest North America. Now I have to figure out how to download that section.

Back to the social-cognitive domain and communication with dogs. That is absolutely fascinating. Anyone who has worked with dogs wants to know all there is to know about that! Thanks for bringing it ...such cool stuff.

edited to add a dog song

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Sima's picture

@randtntx
Did the archaeopress stuff work out? If not, I do have a pdf copy of the book, I could 'lend' it to you Smile

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp , about a good dog. Thanks!

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