Open Thread - 3/31/16 - The Democratic Strategy
Let me start off with a disclaimer: This is assuming votes are actually counted. It is a continuation of a Facebook discussion.
This train of thought started when I read, once again, that Nader voters did it. You can figure out that it was some misguided comment comparing Bernie to Nader. After awhile you get tired of telling people that 60,000 Democrats voted for Nader in Florida and 300,000 Democrats there voted for Bush. These people can't really be talked to. If you tell them that they come back with "well those Democrats who voted for Bush weren't going to vote Democratic anyway". Now what the heck does that mean? And if that's true then why would the Nader voters be expected to?
Or sometimes the variant, the one that I got yesterday, was "Democrats who voted for Bush got what they wanted but Democrats who voted for Nader didn't get what they want". So....does that mean Nader voters were wrong but Dems who voted for Bush....were right? It drives me nuts, I tell you!
But it got me thinking. I looked up the national numbers for 2000 and saw that 11% of Democrats voted for Bush. That's one out of every nine while one out of every fifty voted for Nader. Looking at that I started understanding the thinking of Democratic strategists.
The strategists don't believe in policies. To them policies are irrelevant. They might exist but only as props. Hillary Clinton's campaign is entirely strategic, for example. She'll say anything, claim to be one thing one day, another thing the next. She's the embodiment of the strategist. Strategists only consider what might win. Go full Rove? If necessary. Why not? If it's immoral, so what? If it backfires then it's bad strategy, nothing more.
So, I wondered, what is the strategy here with all the screaming at lefties? Of course they want our votes but why scream, yell and shame? Is that going to get us to vote Democratic? And I thought perhaps they don't care if we do. Perhaps there's a different reason.
I looked back at those numbers of the 2000 election. 11% of Dem center-rightists voted for Bush. And, as noted, that number dwarfs the Nader count. Now if I were a strategist I think I'd go for the bigger number. How could that be done? And they decided "let's move even further right! That way we'll get a big chunk of voters back and maybe even get some more of those moderate Republicans." Because, if you look at 2000, that was a close race. If 11% of Democrats voted for Bush then some similar number of Republicans must have voted for Gore. And so they did. 10% of Republicans voted for the Democratic candidate.
With the Democrats moving right it's only natural that they'd bleed support on the left. But it's a smaller group than the one the strategists want. They'd like both. They'd like the center-right and they'd like the left. To get those centrists (or as we call them, "right wing Dems") the faces, those we think of as candidates, say crazy stuff like "Iran is the most dangerous country in the world". And we hate it and vow never to vote for that sort of thing.
For which we're yelled at, told it'll be our fault if these terrible candidates lose. I can understand that the strategists want that big chunk of voters but why not try a different tactic with us? Why not tell us they're doing it because that's where the votes are? Why not give us a reasonable explanation, why not talk to us intelligently? And I thought...well, they can't. In order to get the "middle" they have to insult us. In a sense the shaming is not to get us to vote for them at all, but to impress the Situs of the world. Being honest to us would jeopardize the votes of those in the so-called middle. "See? We're bashing the left! Vote Democratic!" And if, in the process, they can bamboozle enough of us to vote their way, so much the better.
Sadly there are lots of well-meaning people who believe it and argue that "this is the most important election ever!!" and "we can't afford Trump" or "think of the Supreme Court!", as if we haven't noticed that Obama didn't exactly nominate a liberal justice to replace the Smothered One.
Anyway, they really don't care how we vote in nearly all elections because the sliver is small. They only notice when it's close. Well, $#&*#$ 'em. We'll cut the cord. We're free!
Maybe I agree that this election is important, but it's not because we have to stop Trump or Cruz or Romney...I think Romney is still a possiblity in a brokered convention and I think he'd beat Hillary pretty easily. No, it's important because this is the time to NOT support the Democrats from the left. It's time to show them that their strategy is stupid, it's terrible, it's a loser. Should that lady...you know the one...Her Ladyship...get the nomination I think it's critical that we send some message. Either vote for Jill Stein or write in Bernie or write in Debs, but get some decent number. We know a lot of people are going to get suckered in and vote for that....that woman! But if we can get 10% of the vote away from her that'd be a good start. That is, of course, if Bernie doesn't get the nomination. And that is, of course, if they actually do count the votes.
I Feel Free
I'm Free
Freedom
Set Me Free
no, really, I'm Free
Comments
Thank you, Sharyar, for a very insightful article and for the
music. We in the Rest Of The World are freaking out because we don't even get a vote on the horrors to come from the U.S.A. should anyone else than Bernie become Preznit of the World. As you say, you folks will get the opportunity for at last the kabuki theatre of going to vote on election day (unless your vote is suppressed before you even go, of course).
You say it well, "assuming the votes are counted." Here in Canada we vote with pencil on a paper ballot and ALL elections are run by the independent government agency called Elections Canada. If folks are interested in the details of how elections are held in a democracy (the U.S. is a republic, like Rome was, not a democracy), here is the link to the Elections Canada site: http://www.elections.ca/home.aspx
Thanks for a great article and the songs of freedom.
Resilience: practical action to improve things we can control.
3D+: developing language for postmodern spirituality.
lol, we are both using the phrase "that woman"
In some orange world that would be shamed as sexist!. I confirmed yesterday that I am still registered in NY as "Democratic" and "active". I printed that page, to carry with me on NY Primary Day. Voting card?? I cannot remember that I got a piece of heavystock paper 40 years ago when I moved to NY. If so, long gone, I never realized that that might ever have as much Existence Importance as my original Social Security Card that I got when I was 16. Latter puppy is in the fire safe, along with birth certificate and 2 Krugerrands bought years ago as "investment" that even then I joked could be used as possible currency for a loaf of bread, maybe 2.
Even before the Sanders coalescence I feared that 2016 might be the last election in the USA. Tick, tick, tick.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
And only 4 years off Heinlein's timeline...
Heinlein predicted the last election would be in 2012...
Close enough to be scary as hell.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
whenever a Democrat
claims that a vote for Nader cost the Dems the 2000 election several thoughts cross my mind:
No he didn't
So what if he did?
What is it about the concept of democracy that you don't understand?
You (the Democrat in question) is an entitled jerk - see above.
It's now been 16 years - get over it.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
I watched them certify the results in AZ yesterday
and realized that its very unlikely that all the votes will be counted. Certainly not in this primary. They don't even try to hide corruption any more, they don't think they have to because, really, what are the people going to do about it? Hardly 30% show up and vote in a good year, and no one remembers the crap legislators pulled six weeks ago, let alone last year.
They no longer fear the citizenry, so they no longer pretend that they are not bought and sold. I mean, even "that woman's" supporters know she's taking huge bribes--er, contributions--and they just shrug because "everyone does it, you have to in order to compete".
It absolutely sickens me. Their strategy was to fry our outrage meter and completely turn us off from the process--and for the majority of this country, its worked quite well.
Here's a strategy: let's boycott Arizona again
Just like Gavin Newsom did in 2010, as mayor of San Francisco and in response to Brewer's implementation of racial profiling via new immigration laws, he called for a moratorium on SF employee travel to AZ and a general boycott of AZ businesses.
A coordinated economic boycott of all gerrymandered districts across the country might be just the ticket, hmmm...
Actually, the more crap they pull, the more
people turn up to his rallies and donate money to him.
It's not working very well.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Excellent!
I believe that the Democratic party is going to be in for a big shock even if Hillary Clinton gets the Presidency. IMO, this election is the last dying throes of the Democratic party. Too many people in this country are truly pissed off at the establishment in DC. and something is going to have to give.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Agree GG
In many ways the damage to the the Establishment has been done regardless of the result. This movement does not end in January 2017. It will continue both inside and outside of the political process imo.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
wow, Shahryar
incredible post.
and bing_fucking_o:
"No, it's important because this is the time to NOT support the Democrats from the left. It's time to show them that their strategy is stupid, it's terrible, it's a loser."
ps... could you give links for the 2000 voting stats? helpful to have at hand. thanks!
“There are moments which are not calculable, and cannot be assessed in words; they live on in the solution of memory… ”
― Lawrence Durrell, "Justine"
here are the Roper exit poll numbers
this is the national total.
http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-g...
Interesting, I guess, that Florida exit polls seem to be missing. I googled, found links and they're all dead. "Oops, this page missing".
thanks Shah
and interesting how all of those are missing.
“There are moments which are not calculable, and cannot be assessed in words; they live on in the solution of memory… ”
― Lawrence Durrell, "Justine"
Gee I wonder why?
Well said, gg! There are only 2 outcomes from Nov8: one, Bernie
wins and he mobilizes people power in the streets to force democratic change, or two, someone else wins and people mobilize into people power in nonviolent resistance to domination - In The Streets.
My major concern about progressives is that they are very reluctant to take to the streets. I get that it is the result of a myriad of factors (one of them being privileged), but I so hope that c99 would help progressives grasp that they must learn how to take to the streets. IMO (no false Humbleness in me, eh :=), there is no other outcome possible from Nov 8 than taking to the streets in nonviolent resistance, either to support Bernie, or to stop fascism.
I worry that none of the discussion here on c99 so far shows any signs of that understanding. Americans are notorious for not knowing history or about the rest of the world; progressives tend to be the exception, but I see little recognition of the urgent need for grasping people power. I have some experience with being on the "thin blue line" facing massive people power in apartheid South Africa. I'm here to tell folks that it is the only option after Nov 8.
Forgive me, folks, if this thought pisses you off. It is going to happen, whether you learn to grasp it or not.
Resilience: practical action to improve things we can control.
3D+: developing language for postmodern spirituality.
You most certainly don't have
humbleness.
I am curious as to what authority entitles you to make these judgments about large groups of people?
Are you simply smarter than the rest of us?
'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "
If we can do this peacefully
A Bernie win would encourage people to use peaceful demonstrations to plead their causes.
A Trump win would result in great efforts at repression of peaceful demonstrations and the whole thing would degenerate into violence. And this violence could escalate rapidly.
I would really like to see these changes made peacefully, but that is only a wish. I realize that it could sink into a nation-destroying civil war as the US collectively commits suicide.
We'll see.
Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.
Conditions have to get pretty bad before the citizenry rise up
I've seen a dramatic raising of class consciousness in the US since I first came here 25 years ago. The burdens the under30s face with student debt, stagnant wages, astronomical rents/real estate prices along with their lack of concern about race/gender/orientation are a big gravity well to class awareness.
We've seen it grow from "looney left" of the Dem base to OWS, 2012 GE, 2016 Dem primary.
If the establishment is smart they'll put Trump on the GOP ticket. That will scare the Dem base back into line.
the electoral shamans
in both parties operate in a Reality in which the key real estate is the middle; to win, each believes it vital to wrest from the other a sufficient number of cud-chewers standing in the middle of the road. The "base" of each, it is assumed, will, before election day, flock home to daddy (or, now, mommy), because of fear of the Other. Each election, to each base, is pitched as a Gotterdammerung unmatched in human history . . . until the next one.
The rightist propaganda organ-grinder Sean Klannity, for instance, has, like clockwork, every two years, earnestly urged that "this is the most important election of our lifetime." Because Klannity is an intensely stupid person, he probably doesn't even notice that he does this. His audience, which is even stupider than he, certainly doesn't.
The only thing that is in some ways different this cycle is that Trump is the first national political figure since George Wallace to make it abundantly and publicly and repeatedly clear that he genuinely enjoys hurting people, killing people. And his supporters respond to him precisely because of that. Even a screw-loose sick fuck like Richard Nixon, he managed to mask that sort of thing, communicated it to his people with a wink and a nod. Rather than, as has Trump, emblazoning it on a tower, in neon letters nine miles high. Like Wallace, Trump spreads sepsis, everywhere he goes, but one place he is not going is into the White House. Like Wallace, he is going home.
Sadly, Trump is saying what they've all wanted to say
out loud for a long, long time. And it is the under educated and ignorant that seem to be responding to him the most. But the stage was set for this type of discourse by the Limpdick's and Klannity's of our media, they make this type of talk more and more acceptable every day. He is the culmination of the dumbing down of the Repuke party, and they have only themselves to blame for it. Well, that and a sold out Dem party that sure as hell helped bring this ugliness out. I think there's plenty of blame for the emergence of Trump, from the parties to the media, lots of blame for all those who are merely out to win.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
I think it's rather simple
"Where you gonna go?" Use of fear, shame, LOTE, and utter disregard of leftist economic concerns, masked by more "enlightened" social programs have been/are keeping the left in line. For example watch the Hillary people pivot as soon as Hillary gains the Democratic Nomination (I assume that she will win, one way or other). How many people on TOS who support Bernie state they will "reluctantly" vote for Hillary because of those scary Republicans? I fully expect some "loyalty oath" after the nomination. As long as the left falls in line and votes Dem nothing is going to change; in fact, why should these right-leaning DINOs change?
Great essay, Shahryar!
This makes so much sense in so many ways. I am in such agreement about the Obama SCOTUS pick. As soon as I read about his record, all I could think of was - here we go with another semi-conservative justice just so he can get it passed. Bullshit! I won't have it anymore. I 'm so happy that Bernie said he would ask O to withdraw the nominee if he is elected POTUS so he can nominate someone to start the process to undo Citizens United. It's got to stop somewhere!
I, too, have been fooled into choosing the lesser evil because of - horrors! - the SCOTUS - Drumpf - the rethugs - but no more! I've been voting for 44 years and this time I'm voting for the best candidate. I will not vote for any establishment candidate. I will vote for Bernie no matter the nominee.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Morning Shah, good people~
Where ya gonna go? What ya gonna do? Ya dirty hippie! Ha! Well, guess what shitweasels? This ain't about the party for us. The joke's on you! At this point, your little engine of corruption and back scratching bullshit can crumble and fall. If you no longer serve the people, what good are you to us? You can't plead, shame, threaten, scare, or bargain for my for vote anymore. Give me something to vote for or go away.
Vote blue no matter who? Fuck you.
And now, something pleasant--art:
Cat Lady Day
I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~
It's not working for me, either, triv~~
I'd love to appreciate it, though!
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
It's the same one as last night RA,
I'm posting for the morning crowd. I am hard at work on my next piece tho. My husband asks when I'm going to do something other than trees and ladies and such, I told him I would...when I was done. heh!
I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~
It's so beautiful, triv!
I'm happy to see it again. I love the brilliant colors - that's what always attracts me to an art piece ~ the colors! You do great work, my dear!
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Thank you, it means a lot to me.
I used to be a painter, I put art aside for 20 years. After my Mom died I was kind of at loose ends. I saw a youtube video on mono-printing on a gelli plate, and I was intrigued, but poor, and those plates are pricey. But I found out I could make one for around 12 dollars, so I did. One I had all of those gorgeous batik-like prints, I began to envision what could be done with them and I was off to the races. I was really happy with the results. I never imagined how many other folks would like them too.
I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~
still loving it, triv
it has fresh perspective. beautiful composition, good story . . . what more could one want from art???
“There are moments which are not calculable, and cannot be assessed in words; they live on in the solution of memory… ”
― Lawrence Durrell, "Justine"
All I wanted was to mend
What I got was much more.
I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~
This is wonderful triv33!
I adore mixed media. I have my very own art room, but I haven't done anything at all this year.
I think I'm going to try some political pieces to see what happens.
Thank you for sharing your art. There are millions of awesome ways to do cats and trees art
'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "
I used to have a corner of the dining room table...
that had to be cleared for meals and everything else. Right after Christmas my husband set me up a corner space.
I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~
Beautiful, beautiful painting, Triv.
Thanks for sharing it with us.
Only connect. - E.M. Forster
Thank you so much dancingrabbit
I was honestly afraid to share my work at first. I've been bowled over at the reception here.
I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~
It's very nice
You should be proud
There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams
Thanks kharma...
proud? Huh..I hadn't really thought about it that way, I was either happy with it or not, but yeah...yeah, I guess I am. At the same time, I think I feel my cheeks getting warm just typing that. Us humans are weird creatures.
I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~
:)
There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams
I like a some lovely art
in my morning OT. Thanks Triv33 glad to see your still arting. Art is so needed right now. It is crumbling and Fuck you indeed.
I had a little bleak winter down time...
but I'm rebounding.
I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~
hmmm
I see a little square instead of a picture....is it just me?
I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~
white cat in a snowstorm?
extreme closeup of one hair on my head? No, it's not just you.
Damn it!
If you click on it you can see it, but let me try to fix it.
I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~
Thanks Shahryar
The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. - Friedrich Nietzsche -
I wished there were an electoral college revolution
...just occupy that damn college and force the profs and board of director to close it and come up with normal nationwide election procedures. No Western democracy has such a gawd awful electoral system as you have. Bernie or bust. Why not? May be it would change something a little bit, but hard to believe in. Bernie or HerLadyship? What for? It won't change any of the mess. Not voting at all? Why not? Who is voting anyway, if nothing changes no matter for whom you vote?
No strategy will help to change anything, as long as you worship in that darn electoral college.
Occupy the electoral college.
https://www.euronews.com/live
Partisan electoral politics
is the preview, the set up to the main show. Do people really suspend their belief and think that either puppet hand is going to fight the other evil to restore some semblance of decency, justice, equality or the common good? Why do they fall for this badly produced obviously bipartisan horrible kabuki show? Why are the truth teller's shouted off the stage or declared heretical Dr.Commie Rat's? Spoilers,traitors and enemies of the state because they dare to disrobe the latest greatest lying performer who's going to be the next selected next Emperor. Everything revolves around believing that this is the only reality there is.
Our whole society not to mention the economy is built around this delusional construct backed by data, demographics and numbers that are meaningless outside the gates of Eden. Obstruction and gridlock are part of the show. They do not like it when citizens/people actually participate. When the masses get all riled up they amp up the partisanship and stir the culture war pot. Divide and conquer and keep them believing this is a democratic representational republic. Do you want a vagina probe along with your austerity? If not vote for the candidate whose not a theocratic fundamentalist.
One thing I do know is that they have gone too far, like all of these want to rule the world assholes with power always do. They dice and slice the demographics of mass deception and hook it up to the meaningless political spectrum right left and center. Everybody that's not a nasty authoritarian, or a brainwashed loyalist knows this is not what democracy looks like. Some go along with it as they are doing okay and fear they will lose their right to live in a beautiful house and drive a big honking earth destroyer. Their invested in the system because they are successful and winning the game. When the gate keepers become the next losers will the established order get challenged. Will the cooked up numbers and the strategies hold their meaning?
500,000 unemployed to lose SNAP benefits tomorrow
Good afternoon. Thought I'd drop this article link here. Thanks for the open thread.
A throw back to Bill's legacy 1996 welfare reform, supported by HRC then and in 2008... "More than 500,000 Americans stand to lose SNAP benefits" on April 1st www.citylab.com/politics/2016/03/more-than-500000-Americans-stand-to-los...
P.S. Beautiful painting, triv. And an art area is such a great present.
P.P.S. You can blame me for W. Was so utterly disgusted and disappointed by Bill, I refused to vote for anyone associated with his administration.
"Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change." Stephen Hawking
NEW: http://www.twitter.com/trueblueinwdc
thanks for posting this TrueBlue
I don't blame you in the least . . . if you voted for Nader, your decision was perhaps more moral and courageous than most. i wish i had . . .
as to our brothers and sisters, unemployed and losing food assistance . . . i keep thinking: this is all happening under a Dem administration.
i just keep focused on the young people and send every bit of energy i can to them. and to use this platform and social media to spread ideas of creating doable and measurable strategies that produce systems that are both more sustainable and stable.
but still, your reminder of the hard road for so many makes me feel such grief. such utter grief.
“There are moments which are not calculable, and cannot be assessed in words; they live on in the solution of memory… ”
― Lawrence Durrell, "Justine"
I think you nail their linear
I think you nail their linear thinking. Of course, what they miss, and which Sanders is tapping into, is that there is also this economic populism which is on a different linear axis than the social left/right axis (if we have to think in linear terms of course). And that's why Bernie is able to peal off more of that "middle" without having to be centrist himself - really at all. Anyhow, good post.
I figure they trash the left
As a kind of well poisoning, to discourage people from listening to us. "You know what those people are like, so unrealistic." They are trying to sell destructive strategies as being useful. You can't do that without distraction, we become the distraction, one of the things to fear.
Stay on track. Stay in lane. Don't throw rocks.
This may well be our now or never moment. If Clinton does end up
getting the nomination there will be a big attempt to draw us back into the fold, mainly via time tested fear tactics, (SCOTUS; scary Trump; Cruz; who/whatever). It's worked fairly well for them in the past and if too many of us once again cave and vote LOTE we will simply further convince them that nothing's changed and they can continue to ignore and/or play us. There's a lot of us, even more than usual this time around. It's time we stand up and be counted.
All I want is the truth. Just give me some truth. John Lennon
hello darlin'
as usual, you hit the sweet spot with your comment.
so very good to see you again.
“There are moments which are not calculable, and cannot be assessed in words; they live on in the solution of memory… ”
― Lawrence Durrell, "Justine"
FSC had 'Bernie Supporters' Thrown Out Of Her
Townhall this afternoon.
She was in Purchase, New York.
Per Wikipedia:
Whew!
Thanks for the OT, Shah--you nailed it!
(Music City) Mollie at C99P & DKos
elinkarlsson@WordPress
"Vision without action is a daydream. Action without vision is a nightmare."--Japanese Proverb
"Every time I lose a dog, he takes a piece of my heart. Every new dog gifts me with a piece of his. Someday, my heart will be total dog, and maybe then I will be just as generous, loving, and forgiving."--Author Unknown
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.