Open Thread Friday 5-8-2020

A Look at China Part Three

Following the movement of Christians in China shows the potential of cross influences of Western and Eastern Culture over the millinea. General population may not have been aware of the two civilizations, but the awareness of religious, merchants and political leaders is a different story.

Christianity may have been in China as early as the first century.

The alleged visit to China of Thomas is mentioned in the books and church traditions of Saint Thomas Christians in India (Mar Thoma Syrian Church and the Syro-Malabar rites) who, for a part, claim descent from the early Christians evangelized by Thomas the Apostle in AD 52. For example, it is found in the Malayalam ballad Thomas Ramban Pattu (The Song of the Lord Thomas) with the earliest manuscript being from the 17th century. The sources clearly have Thomas coming to India, then to China, and back to India, where he died.

The common understandings of China as being isolated from the rest of the world has been slowly unraveling as we learn more about the civilization.

Christianity appears to have arrived in China in 6 major waves. Each time leaving a small pocket of believers.

1.) Christian Infancy - soon after the death of Jesus and the following first few centuries.

2.) Nestorian missions - during the Tang dynasty of the 7th century(600's).

The Tang dynasty (618-907) was “young and vigorous in 635” and ruled a much larger territory than any previous Chinese authority. Peace had been re-established between Persia and China and thus international trade along the Old Silk Road, the terminus of which was Chang’an, was flourishing. Along this route, Aluoben made his way, garbed in white robes to the emperor, carrying his sacred Christian scriptures. Once translated, and after the emperor had familiarized himself with their teachings, he issued the following edict:

The way does not have a common name and the sacred does not have a common form. Aluoben, the man of great virtue from the Da Qin Empire, came from a far land…his message is mysterious and wonderful beyond our understanding. The message is lucid and clear; the teachings will benefit all; and they shall be practiced throughout the land.

...
A massive internal rebellion nearly toppled the Tang dynasty in the 750’s such that native elements began to revive. Confucianists and other cultural conservatives began to decry the foreign influence among them and, in turn, an anti-foreign-religion sentiment began to emerge. In 845 this culminated with an imperial edict limiting all foreign religion, including Christianity. Emperor Wuzong (814-846) a zealous Taoist, decreed “all foreign religions be banned.

3.) Mongol Rule and the Spread of Catholicism - during the Yuan dynasty (1206-1368).

Prior to the Ming ascension the Mongol court was open to Christian missionaries and even turned over the administration of parts of northern China to Christian tribesmen from Central Asia. From Rome, as already mentioned, the pope also sent Franciscan and Dominican missionaries, in an effort to establish ties with Eastern Christians and to form an alliance with the Mongol empire.

4.) The Jesuits, Matteo Ricci, and the Spread of Catholicism - during the Ming (1368–1644) and Qing (1636–1911) dynasties.

For the Chinese, it was common to practice whatever indigenous folk religion was common in a geographical region along with a syncretic blending-in of Buddhism and Taoism. Why couldn’t Christianity just be grafted onto the beliefs that they had been practicing for generations?

Ricci’s approach, therefore, was to try to “tie Christianity to traditional Chinese beliefs and practices by pointing out the similarities between them.”[60] Ricci and his colleges even adopted native dress, unheard of among the missionaries of his time, in order to better relate to and gain the respect of the people. He learned rapidly and made adjustments as needed. Initially, upon his arrival he adopted the dress of a Buddhist monk (bonz), only to soon learn that the bonzes were despised among certain influential people. When this mistake was pointed out he and his fellow Jesuits accommodated, and began dressing as Confucian scholars, complete with long beards.

The Dominicans and Franciscans disagreed with continuting the practice of Chinese Rites and after about 60 years of theological arguments Rome condemned the rites in 1704 and 1715.

1724, that the legal status of Christianity was rescinded. Yongsheng, upon assuming the throne, began to tighten his control over both the state and society at large, being very alert to what he perceived as possible departures from, threats to, or disloyalty towards imperial Confucian ideology. He labeled Christianity a heterodox sect, “subversive of Chinese culture and values… and renewed the expulsion of missionaries outside Beijing, calling for all of them to be taken to Guangzhou and held under detention.”[81] Christianity would remain an “illicit religion” until the 1840’s.

5.) Protestantism and Evangelicalism – missionaries, mainly from Western Europe and America, arrive and evangelize during the 19th and early 20th centuries.

First missionaries were restricted to the coastal trade cities. they were expanded into mainland China after the first Opium War.

The most important provisions of the first set of treaties (those enacted at the end of the first Opium War – more were to come at the conclusion of the second) were: 1) extraterritoriality (foreign citizens coming under the authority of their own consular as opposed to Chinese jurisdiction), 2) Christianity would no longer to be legally outlawed, 3) the opening up of five coastal cities for trade and residence for all foreigners as well as the right to build churches, schools, missionary residences etc. in these cities, and 4) the return of all former Church buildings to the Christians, regardless of their present status

6.) Indigenous Movements

The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, literally the Heavenly Kingdom of Great Peace, later shortened[2] to Heavenly Kingdom (simplified Chinese: 天国; traditional Chinese: 天國; pinyin: Tīanguó) or Heavenly Dynasty (Chinese: 天朝), was an unrecognized oppositional state in China and Christian-Shenic theocratic absolute monarchy from 1851 to 1864, supporting the overthrow of the Qing dynasty by Hong Xiuquan and his followers. The unsuccessful war it waged against the Qing is known as the Taiping Rebellion. Its capital was at Tianjing (present-day Nanjing).

A syncretic mystic called Hong Xiuquan led an army that controlled a significant part of southern China during the middle of the 19th century, eventually expanding to a size of nearly 30 million people. The rebel kingdom announced social reforms and the establishment of Bài Shàngdì Huì, holding that he was the second son of Shangdi and the younger brother of Jesus. The Taiping areas were besieged by Qing forces throughout most of the rebellion. The Qing government defeated the rebellion with the eventual aid of French and British forces.

‘The True Jesus Church”, “The Jesus Family”, “Little Flock”, and “Local Church” which, especially after the Cultural Revolution of the 1960’s and 70’s, began to grow.

________

A 1902 lecture on Taoism by Herbert Giles, a British diplomat to Manchu Qing dynasty, 1867 to 1892. (43 min.) Interesting on how much our general knowledge of Taoism has grown over the years.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv8_ggaAPj0]

________

A Look at China Part One
A Look at China Part Two

________

Open thread all discussions are welcome.

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studentofearth's picture

Jesuits traveled to Japan to spread Christianity.

Arriving in Japan in 1549, Jesuit priest Francis Xavier played a key role in the early spread of Christianity in the country. His missionary work included preaching in Hirado in the northwest of present-day Nagasaki Prefecture, where Christianity took root most firmly and “hidden Christians” preserved the faith during centuries of prohibition. Today Hirado is home to numerous historic churches, testifying to the enduring influence of Spanish and Portuguese missionaries.

.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

@studentofearth

Pretty horrifically - a final rebellion in Kyushu - at Shimabara was
defeated with difficulty by the shogunate forces with the help of
the Dutch, leading to the closure of the country from around 1640
till 1854...

Shimabara Rebellion here and here

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studentofearth's picture

@Blue Republic than the Europeans. Used the weapons traded by Europeans to solidify various warlord factions to unify rule over Japan. Then threw out all the Europeans and influences, except the Dutch. Dutch had exclusive trade rights from 1641 to 1854 stationed in Nagasaki.

I have not watched these two videos but have enjoyed others in the series.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gezvniFUPFg]
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpCfxtvAqsw]

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

lotlizard's picture

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studentofearth's picture

@lotlizard of young campaign volunteers. They have no political home to direct them towards. Thanks for the video.

2016 Bernie campaign treatment was was given as part of the reason by George Webb for his becoming a citizen journalist.

[video:https://youtu.be/bRj9z2afXRY?t=119]

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

who went to China to study the silkworm. They eventually hid some in their walking staffs
and smuggled them back to Europe. Also heard of Chinese immigrants bringing their own little stash of silkworms and mulberry trees into their new countries.

Silkworms (incorrectly spelled silk worms) are the larval form of the domesticated silk moth, Bombyx mori. The silk moth was domesticated in its native habitat of northern China from its wild cousin Bombyx mandarina, a cousin which still survives today. Archaeological evidence suggests that occurred about 3500 BCE.

https://www.thoughtco.com/silkworms-bombyx-domestication-170667

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studentofearth's picture

@QMS by foreigners and Chinese migrants hoping for a more prosperous life outside of the country. Silk, porcelain and tea production moving outside of china decreased exports. Gunpowder and the printing press assisted European culture colonization efforts across the oceans. New problems circled back to China.

Our politicians and Intelligence Services (oxymoron?)scream about China's Government organized theft of intellectual properties. Corporations, religious organizations and motivated individuals are rarely totally answerable to political leaders of any government.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

Lookout's picture

Catholic churches sit atop old Maya temples. Our god is better than your god.

Interesting progression in China. I look forward to exploring some of the links to learn more.

Have a good one!

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

studentofearth's picture

@Lookout used to buy trade goods from China for European royalty and merchant class.

Members of the Catholic Church still working on destroying indigenous religiious symbols.

Breaking news from Rome, everyone: Some courageous soul has decided there’s been enough dialogue and bridge building and it’s now time for some action: The disgusting Pachamama idols that had popped up in the church of Santa Maria in Traspontina and that Francis had blessed in the Vatican Gardens on Oct. 4 in connection with the ongoing Amazon Synod, have been removed by an as-yet unidentified individual and cast into the Tiber river.

Video footage of the heroic act has been made available, and reactions have begun pouring in:
video one
video two
Now this will really turn things upside down in the Vatican press hall. An act like this is a million times more effective than some petition, some book release, or some conference.

To whoever did this: Thank you! God bless you!

October 2019

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

enhydra lutris's picture

information. My attention was, of course, really caught by The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, spreading the cult by the sword and by lies and fraud beyond the ordinary mystical superstition (establishment of Bài Shàngdì Huì, holding that he was the second son of Shangdi and the younger brother of Jesus.) Some things seem ever constant. What is it with humans that they crave some eternal cushy afterlife so much that they will sacrifice all of today for some phantom tomorrow? Whatever.

be well and have a good one.

edit - changed mu to my

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

studentofearth's picture

@enhydra lutris but when they become too strong need to be squelched. Old story. Disfranchised individual energized by new ideas and encouragement from foreigners. Destabilized area becomes too large and the foreigners feel the need to respond militarily to stop spread.

Thanks for stopping by.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

lotlizard's picture

I wouldn’t be here …

The Community of the Transfiguration, an Episcopalian order of nuns who at the time ran a mission, St. Lioba’s, in Wuhu in Anhui province, made it possible for a little Chinese girl to emigrate to the U.S. and go to school in Hawaii — the child grew up to become my mother.

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@lotlizard

Han, Hakka or something else? I was under the impression that a lot of the Chinese
immigrants to Hawaii were Hakka...

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lotlizard's picture

@Blue Republic  
and the old-time Chinese in Hawaii, especially the real Paké kamaaina family lines that go way back before the world wars, even back to when the kingdom of Hawaii was an independent country, would be no different.

My great granddad on my father’s side, who was already in the Islands in the mid-19th century and a naturalized Hawaiian subject, was certainly Hakka. My mom was from central China, so not Hakka.

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@lotlizard

hard for most of us to imagine what it took for people to
survive so we could even be here.

BTW - for anyone that's never read them, very much recommend
Jack London's Hawaiian Stories as well as his South Sea Tales -
all written about 1910-11.

"But to return. Hawaii is the home of shanghaied men and women, who were induced to remain, not by a blow with a club over the head or a doped bottle of whiskey, but by love. Hawaii and the Hawaiians are a land and a people loving and lovable. By their language may ye know them, and in what other land save this one is the commonest form of greeting, not "Good day," nor "How d'ye do," but "Love"? That greeting is Aloha - love, I love you, my love to you. Good day - what is it more than an impersonal remark about the weather? How do you do - it is personal in a merely casual interrogative sort of way. But Aloha! It is a positive affirmation of the warmth of one's own heart-giving. My love to you! I love you! Aloha!"

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studentofearth's picture

@lotlizard between old China culture and the Western world: ideas, people, writings, goods ... In the big picture both cultures probably benefited. On the individuals level there were winners and losers. I am glad your family was a winner.

Many of the English translations and original works I read were done by missionaries. The benefit is twofold. I get a sense of the mind set regarding the type of individuals who traveled to Oregon as missionaries during the same time period to claim the land for the God of Abraham. The Native American culture did not fair as well as China. Am also avoiding the spin modern propaganda has placed on Chinese studies. If I read the older stuff first, I am more likely to notice differences and make a conscious choice which opinion to give greater weight.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

ggersh's picture

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I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish

"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"

Heard from Margaret Kimberley

@ggersh My hand raised first!
Loved Caitlin's poem.
A judge called my legal argument a "volcanic eruption" this week during trial.
All I needed was a vibrator in hand...Marked as "Exhibit 'A' for Identification".
Must get to work for a couple of hours, see how my day shakes out.
My tee shirt from Kenya says "If you can't climb it, drink it. Kilimanjaro"
Great beer, btw.
I may never get back there to scratch a rhino behind his ear, or kiss a baby giraffe right on her lips, but I did do that, I will tell everyone about it in the old folks home, and the nurses will tell the dr. to give me extra sedatives.
I look forward to tonight, can't look much farther ahead.
Hope everyone is well!

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

enhydra lutris's picture

@on the cusp
preferred Tusker, great brew and a great history.

IMG_0258

Did you get to Tsaavo?
tsaavolion1

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

@enhydra lutris I also prefer Tusker, but sometimes it wasn't available. Maybe because I drank all they had?
Didn't go to Tsavvo, but maybe next time...
Ever had a driver in the safari van suddenly stop, say "Oh shit!", throw it in reverse and haul ass?
Well, the huge and pissed off elephant in Kenya caused that while I was sitting in the van, trying to get that perfect picture.
Good times!

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

enhydra lutris's picture

@on the cusp

challenging the right of way, so to speak, both at Governor's Camp, as I recall. Also a Buffalo that we had to stop perpendicular to, tailgate first, in order to just boogie at any time because it was prone to charge.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

ggersh's picture

@on the cusp @on the cusp At Phinda Reserve in SA, when the elephant charged and the wife covered the kids, I giggled for their was a moat between us, but then the driver panicked and I said "oh shit"

Stay safe everyone, am indooors in wintery Chicago where the temp is a brisk 39 degrees

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4 users have voted.

I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish

"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"

Heard from Margaret Kimberley

CB's picture

@ggersh
Xi Jinping's Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is out capitalizing capitalistic America while still retaining socialist ideals (for now).

Shanghai Disney is now open for business. All you need is a temperature check, face mask, QR code that says you are healthy and you are good to go to spend your hard earned cash on your inner child.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iAIldXsZoA]

The sleeping dragon is reawakening:

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzyGhEWh75k]

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ggersh's picture

@CB as the number one country in the world, and it wasn't too difficult considering all the help ameriKa gave China to achieve that goal.

up
3 users have voted.

I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish

"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"

Heard from Margaret Kimberley

@ggersh

into suspecting the enemy is something the us military
will squash to protect us interests cause of big guns and such
personally, don't believe the concept
bombing ones way into the hearts and minds of a global people
just ain't gonna work
first show us a way to work together
without blowing up the friggin' world

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studentofearth's picture

@CB it could provide a significant boost to their economy. Stay vacations could be the next trend. They have become the largest segment of international tourists.

Thanks for the videos.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.