When in doubt, blame Russia: British Election Edition

Last week UK Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn revealed evidence showing that 'the US is demanding that the NHS will be “on the table” in talks on a post-Brexit trade deal'.
So, if you are Boris Johnson and your plan to screw over the working people of Britain has been exposed, what do you do? You can try to deny it. Boris and the establishment media attempted to do that, but Boris is a known liar.

Thus the Tories have decided to do the exact same thing that the Hillary Clinton campaign did when it got exposed for rigging the primaries with hacked emails: Blame Russia!

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An anonymous online poster who disseminated documents later brandished by Jeremy Corbyn as evidence the Conservatives would put the NHS “on the table” in US trade talks was part of a campaign directed by Moscow, the site hosting the papers has said.

On Friday evening, Reddit confirmed it has banned 61 accounts; including that of a user called Gregoriator, who it believes was part of a Russian information operation known as Secondary Infektion.

The anonymous user posted copies of the leaked official documents on the site in late October. Corbyn presented the same documents at a news conference last week, saying they “leave Boris Johnson’s denials [that the NHS would be for sale] in absolute tatters” and touting them as “evidence that, under Boris Johnson, the NHS is on the table and will be up for sale”.

An anonymous online poster on Reddit that may have been Russian.
That's more important than the actual content, amirite?

Reddit insisted the post garnered minimal interest at the time and Labour has declined to reveal where it obtained the documents. The government has said it believes they are genuine.

However, questions will now be asked about whether Russia had a hand in introducing the papers into the UK’s public discourse and, if so, what its motivations were for doing so.

What were the motivations of this anonymous Reddit poster who dared to inject important factual information into the British elections?
My answer is the same as it was in 2016: who gives a shit where they came from?

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On Monday, the social media research firm Graphika said that, while it could not definitively prove the Gregoriator account was controlled by Moscow, its methods closely resembled “techniques used by Secondary Infektion in the past, a known Russian operation”.

It identified similarities, including grammatical errors in the early distribution of the documents via Reddit, three German-language websites and an anonymous Twitter account.

Secondary Infektion is the name given to a Russian operation exposed by Facebook earlier this year, operating across six languages and dozens of platforms. Subsequent analysis by the Atlantic Council, a US thinktank, demonstrated it was behind a string of largely failed attempts to disseminate fake news, including a blatantly false story that British remainers were planning to assassinate Johnson.

Atlantic Council = NATO
But who is Graphika?

One of those experts, Ben Nimmo, is described by Reuters and the Guardian simply as “head of investigations at Graphika.” The Telegraph had the gaul to refer to Nimmo and co. as “independent researchers” — yet nowhere in the mainstream press, is it disclosed that Nimmo is a former spokesperson for NATO, who has essentially dedicated his career to fear-mongering about Russia.

Nimmo has also been linked to the now-exposed Integrity Initiative, a covert psyop funded by the British Foreign Office, ironically masquerading as an independent disinformation-busting ‘charity’ — which was caught disseminating anti-Corbyn talking points on social media and attempting to link him to the Kremlin...
As for Graphika itself, its website proudly states that it is partnered with the US Department of Defense.

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Alligator Ed's picture

You can try to deny it. Boris and the establishment media attempted to do that, but Boris is a known liar.

This is a tautology.

Boris is a politician
All politicians lie
Thus Boris is a liar.
QED

The farce of Boris being pro-Brexit was discussed in Nigel Farage's rips off BoJo's Brexit mask.

Perhaps off topic, is failing Jeremy Corbyn, facing loss of Labour support. I'm not keen on Jeremy any more, since he is a Remainer and doesn't quash anti-semitic tropes by Labourites. This is akin to Bernie kissing the Evil Queen's ass, campaigning for her--possibly more than she campaigned for herself.

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@Alligator Ed

I'm not keen on Jeremy any more, since he is a Remainer and doesn't quash anti-semitic tropes by Labourites

Corbyn has been an EU-skeptic since the 70's. He's been under attack by Blairites for two years for NOT being a Remainer.
As for anti-semitic tropes by Labourites, that a Tory talking point. It has no basis in reality. It just got repeated over and over again.

This is a tautology.

Boris is a politician
All politicians lie
Thus Boris is a liar.
QED

No Boris is special. Even Tory voters don't trust him.

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Alligator Ed's picture

@gjohnsit From the Spectator Jeremy Corbyn's opportunity to unite the Remain vote

But with Johnson already the frontrunner, the opportunity for Jeremy Corbyn is the greatest. The Conservatives’ electoral strategy rests on the party uniting the Leave vote – and the Remain vote splitting between Labour and the Lib Dems. By cutting Lib Dems out of the picture, Corbyn has a perfect opportunity to pitch himself as the only viable alternative to Johnson and the only viable route to a second referendum.

A second referendum means that those promoting it are denying the will of a majority of Britons who already expressed a strong Leave preference. Yeah, repeat the vote until we get the result we want.

The Jacobin published Love Remain, Hate Jeremy Corbyn

In fact, Labour’s 2017 manifesto explicitly ruled out “no deal” — “the worst possible deal for Britain” — and promised to replace the Tory approach to Brexit with “fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union.” It also promised to “ensure there can be no rolling back of key rights and protections and that the UK does not lag behind Europe in workplace protections and environmental standards in future” and warned that “for many Brexiteers in the Tory Party, this was why they wanted to Leave — to tear up regulations and weaken hard-fought rights and protections.”

If this is to be accepted as fact and if you acknowledge Corbyn was Labour leader in 2017, then one might conclude that Corbyn's position was "Remain with Modifications". That position would have protected workers' rights but stay within the EU. Corbyn has been unhappy with the No-deal Brexit probably because simply departing the EU wouldn't confer any benefits to workers plus put the country's economic future into uncertainty.

As far as antisemitism is concerned, the "unbiased" BBC published No apology from Jeremy Corbyn over Labour anti-semitism claims

Labour has been beset by allegations of anti-Semitism for more than three years, leading to the suspension of a number of high-profile figures such as Ken Livingstone and Chris Williamson, and an unprecedented investigation by the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
In an interview with Andrew Neil on BBC One, Mr Corbyn was asked four times whether he was going to apologise to the British Jewish community following the chief rabbi's claim that Labour was not doing enough to root out anti-Jewish racism.

Even if Corbyn himself is not an anti-semite, his failure to denounce anti-semitism publicly is supportive of my contention. As the putative Labour Party leader, he carries with it whatever moral authority that party can bring to bear on the question of anti-semitism.

I do not conflate being anti-Israel with being anti-Semitic. Israel is committing ethnic cleansing and war-crimes on a continuous basis. But this is not the issue we are debating.

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@Alligator Ed
Don't get me wrong. I'm not attacking you in any way.
I just think you are relying on biased sources.

A second referendum means that those promoting it are denying the will of a majority of Britons who already expressed a strong Leave preference.

1.) There was no "strong Leave preference". Brexit won by less than 4%.
2.) The polls show a majority opposes a no-deal Brexit, and wasn't what the pro-Brexit people promised.
3.) Having a popular vote on something is NEVER in opposition to democracy and the will of the people.

one might conclude that Corbyn's position was "Remain with Modifications".

No. Corbyn had to fight his own party to make their official stand on the 2nd referendum to be neutral. Neutral is not Remain by definition.
As for Corbyn historically.

In the 1975 European Communities referendum put forward by the Labour Party in the United Kingdom, Corbyn opposed Britain's membership of the EEC.[200] Corbyn also opposed the ratification of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, saying: "... the whole basis of the Maastricht treaty is the establishment of a European central bank which is staffed by bankers, independent of national Governments and national economic policies, and whose sole policy is the maintenance of price stability[.] That will undermine any social objective that any Labour Government in the United Kingdom—or any other Government—would wish to carry out. ... The Maastricht treaty does not take us in the direction of the checks and balances contained in the American federal constitution[.] It takes us in the opposite direction of an unelected legislative body—the [European] Commission—and, in the case of foreign policy, a policy Commission that will be, in effect, imposing foreign policy on nation states that have fought for their own democratic accountability".[201][202][203]

We have a European bureaucracy totally unaccountable to anybody, powers have gone from national parliaments - they haven't gone to the European Parliament, they've gone to the Commission and to some extent the Council of Ministers. These are quite serious matters.
— Jeremy Corbyn views on the European Union in 1996, Labour Party conference, 1996[204]

Corbyn also opposed the Lisbon Treaty in 2008[205] and backed a proposed referendum on British withdrawal from the European Union in 2011
.[206]

As for this: Even if Corbyn himself is not an anti-semite, his failure to denounce anti-semitism publicly is supportive of my contention.
All I can say is that it is total bullsh*t. You have been lied to.
It's bullsh*t on the scale of Saddam's WMDs and Russiagate.
I've written about it here before, and I don't want to spend time repeating myself.

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edg's picture

@gjohnsit

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@edg
You assume that I am a Remainer.
Like Corbyn, I'm not.
How does that change your questions?

OTOH, I don't think that when the used car salesman lies to you about the car you bought, that you should just shut up and accept that you're screwed. I think that when the facts change that people are capable of changing their minds, and common decency requires asking the people again.
Or do you think that alcohol should still be prohibited?

As for your question, have the facts about abortion ever changed?

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Alligator Ed's picture

@gjohnsit One thing you've never done in all the years reading your essays or comments, is the resort to ad hominem arguments. We sometimes disagree with each other and it is superb that we have a platform in c99 which encourages civil discourse.

As far as being lied to about the anti-semitism rap, my sources unfortunately are the UK's MSM, a wholy owned subsidiary of the Westminster Mob. In the spirit of obtaining information on the Corbyn/anti-semitism rap, your aid in what you consider reputable sources about the issue would be appreciated by me.

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@Alligator Ed
https://caucus99percent.com/content/corbyn-vs-netanyahu-which-one-anti-s...

https://caucus99percent.com/content/many-crimes-jeremy-corbyn

I know that I've written a third somewhere

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ppnortney's picture

@Alligator Ed

always provides a reasonable perspective and he lives in and reports from Nazareth: https://www.jonathan-cook.net/2019-11-27/antisemitism-claims-have-one-go...

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The smaller the mind the greater the conceit. --Aesop

edg's picture

@gjohnsit

I'm neutral on Brexit. I see merit on both sides. OTOH, Prohibition was in effect for 13 years before it was repealed while cries for a new Brexit referendum begain immediately. That smacks of sore loserism.

Have the facts about abortion ever changed? Why, yes. As medicine has advanced, the age at which a fetus becomes viable outside the womb has decreased. Our understanding of when human life begins has radically changed. The scientific arguments against abortion have strengthened dramatically since Roe v. Wade.

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Lily O Lady's picture

@edg

expectations regarding reproductive health as in Ohio where they expect the scientifically impossible reimplantation of ectopic pregnancies.

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"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

edg's picture

@Lily O Lady 1

Most have little or no knowledge of science. Many are lawyers. Some are crooks or religious wackos or both. Very few care very much about ordinary people, especially if those ordinary people are female.

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snoopydawg's picture

@Alligator Ed

Corbyn wants to reopen Auschwitz

‘The Jewish establishment in Britain and the Israeli propaganda machine have taken out a contract on the leader of the British Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn. The contract was taken out a long time ago, and it was clear that the closer Corbyn came to being elected prime minister, the harsher the conflict would get.’

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack

Alligator Ed's picture

@snoopydawg As I expressed to gj in a comment above this, I was unaware of UK outlets reporting the truth about anti-Corbyn anti-semitism smears, which the article clearly reveals them to be. Being an Amerikan, I'm unfamiliar with the British press, except that the UK MSM is just as corrupt as our Amerikaner versions.

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snoopydawg's picture

@Alligator Ed

from the media mouth dawgs for the PTB so it is hard to determine what's prop or not. Heh...

I'm just surprised that Bernie has been accused of that. Oh wait. He has been. Usually when I see attacks on people I look to see if there is a reason. Corbyn would be much better than Johnson that's for sure.

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack

Creosote.'s picture

@snoopydawg
He strikes me as being as trustworthy and alive as snoopydawg, gulfgal, CB, travelerxxx, and basically any of us here, including JtC.

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Creosote.'s picture

@Alligator Ed
at the Guardian, and learning how to judge whether the truth or something else is being spoken. While the paper is not what I understand it once was, there seems to be little contributor censorship when Comments are open. The British press, all bound tightly in Murdochthink, is so toxic that it almost makes the NYT look trustworthy. Many posters condemn the BBC as an openly pro-Tory vehicle -- and one for which they as British citizens are obliged to personally pay for.
What I don't see are many links to alternative trustworthy news websites. Now I wonder if the paper would permit that.

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dervish's picture

@snoopydawg

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7767789/Jeremy-Corbyn-biggest-g...

Wiesenthal continues to embarrass himself. They are getting desperate.

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"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."

snoopydawg's picture

@dervish

Jeremy Corbyn is the biggest global threat to Jews, warns Simon Wiesenthal Centre - the world's leading Nazi-hunting organisation - as Boris Johnson urges voters to save Britain from a 'nightmare'

Anti-Nazi hunting organisation says Corbyn is the worst antisemite on the planet
The Simon Wiesenthal Centre says Corbyn would turn Britain into a 'pariah state'
PM says Corbyn’s immigration policy would ‘put even more pressure on the NHS’

'Members and staff who have dared to speak out against the hate were purged, but not those who declared 'Heil Hitler' and 'F*** the Jews.'

The sad thing is that people will read the headline and the article and just believe without asking if it is true or not or wonder why the dude wrote it. Cui bono? It is frightening that people don't bother to look to see if there is any truth to articles anymore.

Edited

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack

TheOtherMaven's picture

@snoopydawg

The mind worms have eaten their brains.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

lotlizard's picture

@snoopydawg  
https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-group-names-uks-corbyn-top-anti-sem...

And German chancellor Angela Merkel visits Auschwitz, prompting this essay from Raúl Ilargi Meijer at The Automatic Earth blog:

https://www.theautomaticearth.com/2019/12/assange-and-auschwitz/

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ppnortney's picture

@Alligator Ed

isn't confined to the Labour Party and this was a deliberate smear of Corbyn because he supports Palestinian rights. The same thing happens here: if you don't support Israel's right to commit genocide you're an anti-Semite, if you don't support the US government's right to invade, loot and plunder any country that has a resource the corporate overlords want, you're a Russian agent.

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The smaller the mind the greater the conceit. --Aesop

snoopydawg's picture

@ppnortney

in regards to the smears against Corbyn. You are right that this is one reason why he is being smeared and is being targeted by the Jewish community. No matter what Israel does if you say anything about it you are called anti Semitic.

BTW. In my comment of Vlad summoning Pompeo it was snark. Bibi is the one summoning him because he wants his war with Iran. Trump is sending many more troops to Saudi Arabia and it sure doesn't seem to be bothering any democrats that he is acting outside of congress.

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack

edg's picture

@snoopydawg

Democrats only care about Trump acting outside of Congress when it suits their purposes. Such as having taxpayers pay Raytheon $391 million to give free antitank missiles to Ukraine.

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Alligator Ed's picture

@snoopydawg Since we are not at war with KSA, even though members of the House of Saud are at war with us, sending troops to an allied nation requires only sufficient funding which our duopoly has provided aplenty to the military.

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TheOtherMaven's picture

@Alligator Ed

which is how power-mad megalomaniacs always manage to get what they want once they are in power. They find the loopholes and exploit them to the max.

It's been that way at least since the days of Rameses II - probably a lot longer.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

snoopydawg's picture

@Alligator Ed

to put troops in their country. Just like Kerry said they paid us to overthrow Assad. "How much?" he was asked. "A lot!" he said and then giggled. And then everyone else giggled with him. However, the Saudi didn't cover the cost of the CIA arming AQ. Oh no that came out of our pockets.

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack

Alligator Ed's picture

@snoopydawg Diablo

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travelerxxx's picture

Heading to the local grocery this afternoon, I punched the car radio on. It happened to be set to one of our two public radio stations – this one was the official NPR station, not Pacifica. Anyway, radio came on to some dude saying something close to "... part of a campaign directed by Moscow ... part of a Russian information operation known as Secondary Infektion." What I remember is that when I read the highlighted section of gjohnsit original post, it sounded almost exactly like what I remember the voice on my radio saying.

Had to immediately cut off the radio ... before I barfed.

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wendy davis's picture

@travelerxxx

hand this barf-worthy agitprop to you then? NPR = bellingcat = the guardian:

retweeted by eliot higgins of bellingcat:

should i duck? ; )

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Alligator Ed's picture

@wendy davis

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travelerxxx's picture

@wendy davis

should i duck?

Nah. No worries, my friend. When it comes to major political parties and/or spokespeople – no matter which nation they call home turf, my default reaction is disbelief. I am as skeptical of the UK Labour outfit nearly the same as I am of our homebrew Dems. Corbin, I peg at about the same level as our dear Sanders: Far from perfect. Tories are as lost as our GOP. None of it is my rodeo, of course.

As far as The Guardian piece is concerned, their second paragraph was the tell: "... Bradshaw – who has repeatedly raised the subject of Kremlin interference in British politics, including in the EU referendum ..." Pretty much all I need to know right there.

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snoopydawg's picture

@travelerxxx

"All roads lead to Russia." No matter what happens anywhere that people don't like it's because Russia is causing it.

Hold up military aid to anywhere - Russia
Withdraw troops from anywhere - Russia
Break a treaty - Russia
Cut millions from SNAP - Russia
Deregulation of everything - Russia
Tax cuts for the rich - Russia
Dawg poos in your house - Russia
Raining, snowing, foggy or sunny - Russia

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack

snoopydawg's picture

@snoopydawg

Vlad summons Pompeo to talk about putting more pressure on iran

Gee next thing you know Vlad will be in front of congress asking for more money to suppress the Ukrainians.

Watch the video in the article.

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack

Creosote.'s picture

@snoopydawg
of food production. With the result that Europe now sources an expanding percentage of its non-GMO food from Russia.

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wendy davis's picture

@travelerxxx

about bringing the whole enchilada at the Grauniad (some wits have rebranded it due to their frequent 'misspelled words') to make you barf more. that's all. ergo: duck?

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Bollox Ref's picture

We agreed that Johnson and Brexit are so dire that the only answer is to vote Labour.

Johnson's constituency (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) isn't far from my home village. He's never there, literally. I can only hope they fail to provide him with a majority, and thus boot him from Parliament. A PM without a seat. Now, that would be a laugh.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/07/uxbridge-election-campa...

Oddly enough, the Earl of Uxbridge commanded the cavalry in 1815. Let's hope that this is De Piffle's Waterloo. Ghastly individual.

(Edited)

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Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.

breathtaking, just astonishing, that they do this.

Thus the Tories have decided to do the exact same thing that the Hillary Clinton campaign did when it got exposed for rigging the primaries with hacked emails: Blame Russia!

Immediately. Stupid unfounded assertions that make no sense, but they're there, immediately, so you can think about Russia interfering before you even think through the original point.

It's clear. It's blatant. It's repetitive. It's stupid. And yet it achieves the effect of distracting. They may as well be saying baked custard caused the US NHS demands. It doesn't matter how irrelevant or pointless, except that if Russia is to blame for everything bad, we must spend more trillions on defense.

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Creosote.'s picture

@Linda Wood
a lot of wealthy people who would have to pay tax under EU regulations will be very happy.
Many, including leading Tory officials, have already shipped funds offshore.

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propaganda freakout angered me enough that I finally decided to watch Oliver Stone's interviews with Putin. Not that I haven't wanted to watch them before, but because I just haven't taken the time. Now I will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvlKSbYkTXI

In the introductory minutes of the first interview, there is audio of Trump being asked by Bill O'Reilly if he respected Putin. Here is a separate video of that exchange:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8-VB-XkjKQ

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/05/donald-trump-repeats-his...

… Asked by the host, Bill O’Reilly, if he respected Putin, Trump replied: “I do respect Putin.

“Will I get along with him? I have no idea. It’s very possible I won’t.”

O’Reilly said: “He’s a killer, though. Putin’s a killer.”

“There are a lot of killers,” Trump replied. “We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent?”

I remember having read or heard this exchange back when it happened. I'm posting it here not to derail the discussion but to emphasize how important it is to respond to the Russia Bad meme by getting real. And, frighteningly, I have to say Trump, as strange as he is, as unpredictable as he is, as boorish and odd as he is, now and then says something straight-out powerful and insightful. Yikes.

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travelerxxx's picture

@Linda Wood

Reading about this propaganda freakout angered me enough that I finally decided to watch Oliver Stone's interviews with Putin.

Glad to hear this, Linda. Ever since I saw them, I've been recommending to everyone that they watch those interviews. I don't care what their political persuasion is. I think they're important, especially now with the propaganda more pervasive than anything I've seen in my lifetime. This same propaganda is evidently more effective than in the past. I'm not sure whether it's due to the refined methodology and technology or the lack of discernment from populations. It's probably both.

I can understand why these interviews have been somewhat suppressed. There are a whole bunch of political actors who do not want (especially) Americans to see them. First, and foremost, you can't come away from watching these thinking that Putin is some kind of monster. In fact, far from it. Not that Stone is throwing marshmallows – he damn sure isn't. Further, anyone watching will quickly realize that *somebody* hasn't quite been telling the truth. Primarily guilty is the Western and particularly the American press.

If you're going to watch, note carefully toward the end of the series when Stone asks Putin who he favors in the (then upcoming) US presidential election – Clinton or Trump. His answer says it all.

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snoopydawg's picture

@travelerxxx

This same propaganda is evidently more effective than in the past. I'm not sure whether it's due to the refined methodology and technology or the lack of discernment from populations. It's probably both.

As ya'll know I peruse DK daily. Most of the time I am flabbergasted about how many of them are so anti Russia. From thinking that Trump is being controlled directly by Putin to them thinking every republican is in cahoots with Vlad to the massive McCarthyism they display. I wondered the other day what their parents would think of them pushing the new red scare. We have studied and talked about how easy it was for the country to go down that rabbit hole and yet people have packed their bags and are going down it again. Flabbergasted I tell you. But then that's why we are bombarded with propaganda isn't it? It works.

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack

travelerxxx's picture

@snoopydawg

We have studied and talked about how easy it was for the country to go down that rabbit hole and yet people have packed their bags and are going down it again.

I know you're referring to the Cold War and probably not the older Red Scare, but, yes we went there easily. Maybe easier the second time for the Cold War. I tend to classify them that way – the one just after WWI as the Red Scare; the one after WWII as the Cold War.

The whole modern propaganda thing scares the hell out of me. Sometimes it seems that, as a nation, we've learned exactly nothing. Maybe less than nothing. This time seems worse to me. In the 1950s, the USSR had nukes, but not all that many. Of course, any is too much. Today, it's a completely different story. Russia has very advanced weapons, with more just about to be put online. We have no defence for some of these, maybe most of them.

Still, we have the leaders of both American political parties, all the mainstream press (with the possible exception of [gasp!] Fox), and various of our foreign lackeys, ranting madly about Russia. Worse yet, we've pushed our military right up to their borders. Imagine if you're Russian, what this looks like... Imagine what their military thinks this looks like. Hell, I'm not even a Russian and I know what it looks like! Russia (whether Putin is the leader or not) has no choice but to take it seriously – and they are indeed taking it seriously. Reluctantly, you can tell.

I've seen the change in Putin's attitude when he answers questions about this situation. Yes, he continues with that crazy "Our partners..." talk, but there is getting to be less and less of it. Now, his responses seem to always start with a big sigh. I don't blame him. What the hell can he do? I'm sure he's thinking he's up against mad men ... and he's right. Mad as in totally insane.

Sometimes I wonder just what the hell the war-mongering propagandists and their supporters think the end result of this belligerence is going to be. Do they actually want war with Russia? As mad as it sounds, I think they actually must want it. Perhaps they harbor some notion that everything will happen on Russian territory and they will remain untouched, still ensconced in their haut digs in places like The Hamptons, San Francisco, and Martha's Vineyard. It won't happen that way. If it goes down, they'll have half an hour – if that – before they're ashes like everyone else.

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@travelerxxx
President Putin is very concerned about aggressive US posture in moving to Russia's borders and withdrawing from the ABM and IRBM treaties. If the goal was to undermine his support it has badly backfired. The Russian people are also very worried, but President Putin has reassured them that the situation is under control. He insightfully understood that the US would move geostrategically towards an aggressive posture and has acted accordingly. Russia has an extremely potent strategic response capability and is deploying significant advances during these years. That was the purpose of his announcement of various new systems last year. Russia has a very potent triad of thermonuclear weapons that are unstoppable by current US defensive systems. The US has proven President Putin absolutely right in development of these systems, and not at all paranoid. He has also placed Russia in a position that is financially and technologically independent of the US. Again, he has been proven exactly correct in this. If the US had any leaders with wisdom it would understand that this very bad relationship is exactly reversible. The US created it and the US can reverse it. There is nothing that Russia can do except to make herself secure from US bullying.

If you want to educate yourself on President Putin the best way is to listen to him speak. There are lots of youtube videos with subtitles of him being interviewed or giving speeches or his marathon public Q&A sessions. Beware though, if you do that you might come away with the impression that the reality is diametrically opposite to the image painted by the Western media.

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Capitalism has always been the rule of the people by the oligarchs. You only have two choices, eliminate them or restrict their power.

Creosote.'s picture

@The Wizard
with Oliver Stone (2017) - full transcripts, including material not in the documentary. ISBN 9781510733428. Check Bookfinder rather than A-monopoly for sources.

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snoopydawg's picture

@travelerxxx

and the McCarthy era where the country went insane.

The whole modern propaganda thing scares the hell out of me. Sometimes it seems that, as a nation, we've learned exactly nothing.

Case in point I am seeing more propaganda about Russia on lots of MSM sites today. Here is one example:

Here is another one. I don't know who VOA is or if it is connected to the government, but I am curious what the point of this is.

One twit response:

To republicans Russia is a pipe dream come true. A nation ruled predominantly by white men where rich oligarchs and politicians wield political power with no regard for rules, ethics, or conflicts of interest.

Don't we already have that?

And this is a comment in the essay on it.

There is no doubt that Trump was recruited to destabilize America. Everything he has done has benefited Putin one way or another. We need to monitor these right wingers in the military, and when they cross the line, deport them to Russia. That goes for a lot of Republicans in Congress and of course Joe Mancini.

That someone actually wrote this let alone believes it and many people rec'd it is mind blowing to me. Now even Joe Manchin, not Mancini, is called a Russia stooge because he votes with repubs more than dems. But, but... I thought it was okay for him to vote with them as long as he gives us the majority when needed. Seriously how does that even make sense? He can be a democrat in name only and vote to screw us, but that's okay because of pretzelized reasons.

Then there's this type of BS:

The Russians have tapped into white fear around the globe, and unleashed basically a 21st version of the Aryan master-race logic of the Nazis.

What the ever lovin F? Russians are now the new Nazis? Vlad Putin is the leader of the Nazi empire? Again, WTELF? His parents were killed by them so I think he would be very against them. But that is what the non stop propaganda has brought us.

Sometimes I wonder just what the hell the war-mongering propagandists and their supporters think the end result of this belligerence is going to be. Do they actually want war with Russia? As mad as it sounds, I think they actually must want it.

Well isn't that why we are sending weapons to Ukraine? You know, to fight the Russians over there so we don't have to fight them here? Yes I do believe some do want a war with them because the attacked us during our elections don't you remember? People actually believe that Russia has invaded Ukraine and is marching on Kiev when it's the people in the Donbass area that are fighting the genocidal actions of the Neo Nazis that we propped up. The people who think Vlad is a white supremacist are not even aware of the NN in that have committed some very heinous crimes against native Ukrainians. Why? Because the only listen to the MSM mouthpieces that don't cover it and they don't bother looking to see if what they just heard is true. Rachel Moscow wouldn't lie to them now would she?

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack

snoopydawg's picture

Libya is a huge mess right now and we keep blaming Russia for what's happening there so yeah I think it might be a good idea for us to open a dialogue. We're saying Russia shot down our drone. But the Twitter heads are freaking out about the meeting.

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“When police break the Law then there is no Law - just a fight for survival.” - Billy Jack

@snoopydawg

about the possibility of nuclear war not happening every time we meet with Russian officials, especially if what we plan to do is listen, not just demand.

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ppnortney's picture

@Linda Wood

are off the rails.

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The smaller the mind the greater the conceit. --Aesop

Corbyn would crank up Auchwhich or anti-Semitism to lead to yet another such "camp".
Go there.
Learn about the gas pellets that came from the USA.
Get an education.
And then ask yourself, if Corbyn would do that.
I am not directing this to anyone on this site, but just ranting about the whole damn propaganda.
Visit Auchwhich, and you will most certainly rant.
Sorry if I went OT.
Half the people on my tour could not go there.
I did.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

@on the cusp

...as you go through your life experiences, and bringing that knowing back to those of us who will pass it on. It is a solemn act.

Politically and socially, bearing witness enables us to see clearly the entire web of causes and conditions that create suffering, and to take effective action to improve people’s lives.

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I do not know if the people of the United States would vote for Enlightened Men — if they ran for public office — but there can be no doubt that such men do not run.
— Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

@Pluto's Republic The only thing you can do is take a deep breath, step inside, and open your eyes.
It is ignorant and disrespectful for the camp to be brought up at all in terms of today's politics.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

@on the cusp

In any event, I am addressing only the process of expanding the wisdom of the group. Which I appreciate.

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I do not know if the people of the United States would vote for Enlightened Men — if they ran for public office — but there can be no doubt that such men do not run.
— Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

@Pluto's Republic idiots calling out Corbyn. Should have made that clearer.
Nobody on this site is falling for that propaganda.

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lotlizard's picture

@on the cusp  
just tried to use camp victim ashes to send an “Antifa” type political message. It went over like a lead balloon.

It is ignorant and disrespectful for the camp to be brought up at all in terms of today's politics.

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-activists-apologize-for-holocaust-memorial...

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lotlizard's picture

Right on schedule. People don’t believe me when I say the entire German establishment is just an extension of the U.S. Deep State. But I think in time they will.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-defense-minister-calls-out-russia-after-ber...

I’m a member of the co-op that publishes the Green/alternative-left daily taz. But more and more often, spearheading political correctness and “cancel” culture in Germany as it does, with a few exceptions its staff more and more looks and sounds to me as if it’s been turned into just another Atlanticist asset.

That’s the dilemma here in Germany — nowadays the only real choice seems to be between “progressives” of various kinds who de facto advance the real fascism of the U.S. Deep State, or “populists” who, according to “progressives,” are all fascists.

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travelerxxx's picture

@lotlizard

That’s the dilemma here in Germany — nowadays the only real choice seems to be between “progressives” of various kinds who de facto advance the real fascism of the U.S. Deep State, or “populists” who, according to “progressives,” are all fascists.

I would say to you that it's not just Germany. It's the choice here in the US, too. The future sometimes looks pretty dismal. Fascists + Fascists = Fascists. Worldwide, it seems to be the trend.

There is actual resistance, and not the bogus kind. But it's small. My hope is when I think of the initial resistance to the Vietnam War here in the US. It went from absolutely nothing to massive. I watched it happen. It started with people talking and writing. Much later came the crowds and the protests. It started with just a handful of people speaking. Those people were up against both of the massive political parties in the US and had no support whatsoever from media in any form. Kind of like today.

When I remember all that I realize that what we do here on c99 is important. Hopefully you can be that spark with taz as you are here.

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lotlizard's picture

@travelerxxx  
among many, lost in the crowd. But thanks for the encouragement.

Although more than a bit of a bother at my age, I still do have the option of taking the German equivalent of the Greyhound bus from Dresden to Berlin to take part in various workshops and discussions the taz hosts.

From the (exceptionally wordy) webcomic Subnormality — can anyone really know the full consequences of any of our words or actions?
http://www.viruscomix.com/page556.html

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Pluto's Republic's picture

@lotlizard

From the (exceptionally wordy) webcomic Subnormality — can anyone really know the full consequences of any of our words or actions?
http://www.viruscomix.com/page556.html

Not likely. The way you feel when someone, decades after the fact, tells you that something you wrote or said back them sent their life careening off in an unexpected direction. And you have barely any memory of it. The system is far too complex for one person or a small group to know where to poke it to move it effectively. Even though, it often happens like that.

Thanks for the comic link. Wish I could better assimilate your views and dilemmas. Your comments make us feel a connection because they reflect the same patterns we see in our own surroundings. But our comments don't seem to bring any comfort or resonance to you. We are missing to much of the spectrum that you observe to make a meaningful connection. Perhaps some comments might even seem hard or myopic. Wish it was clear how to remedy that. The links you post do help.

More likely, we are lost voices in the expanding ball of chaos. The last of those who tried to embrace its wholeness and pull it back into the center.

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I do not know if the people of the United States would vote for Enlightened Men — if they ran for public office — but there can be no doubt that such men do not run.
— Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America
Pluto's Republic's picture

@Pluto's Republic

It took some time, but I finally fell into the consequences.

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I do not know if the people of the United States would vote for Enlightened Men — if they ran for public office — but there can be no doubt that such men do not run.
— Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America
lotlizard's picture

@Pluto's Republic  
http://infogalactic.com/info/Subnormality

For broadening my horizons to include webcomics, I am thankful to Scott McCloud and his three books Understanding Comics, Reinventing Comics, and Making Comics.

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OzoneTom's picture

@lotlizard
I have a copy of McCloud's first book from the 90's but hadn't followed-up so didn't realize there were the others.

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mimi's picture

@lotlizard @lotlizard
who lifted Kramp-Karrenbauer into her current position as Secretary of Defense, who sent our former Secretary of Defense Van der Leyen to the EU to become President of the European Commission? We voters, Merkel by herself or by some specific or all representatives?

Where is the proof that this is the job by those you describe as “progressives” of various kinds , who de facto advance the real fascism of the U.S. Deep State, or “populists” who, according to “progressives,” are all fascists?

You are right, because you said "de facto". But I like to see the facts and not rely on "de facto" derivative statements.

I have no trust in Kramp-Karrenbauer and Van der Leyen. So who is responsible for them being lifted into their position? Is it Merkel alone? Are these our 'Representatives' in the 'Bundestag' and do all of them represent 'US Deep State' interests or the 'Federal Security Bureau of the Russian Federation's' interests?

How about blaming each voter and each representative for not knowing when they will change their minds about things they themselves don't know exactly?

You follow these things in detail and since a long time, myself I read only a little bit and can not handle the sources or evaluate them, nor did I ever archive them (I am grateful for many posters here on C9p, who have obviously done so, and I wished I had done the same)

So from what I get, it's either - (no one personally targetted here and specifically not you, lotlizard) - one of several options, ie an anti-semite, or a racist, or a neo-nazi, or neo-liberal, or those antlanticists friends, who kiss the feet of Drumpelstiltzchen, or one of the hidden Putinchen-lover-boys, or one is just flat out uneducated and dumber than batshit.

This dilemma is imo innate to Democratic Representation. So, do I still want to be a democrat or rather a fascist or rather a fake news delusional believer?

I can't stand my own questions, because whatever I answer, I fall in one of those categories above and that hurts my feelings and I ain't no masochist either.

As I can vote in Germany, I'll make up my mind about my choices two minutes before I go to the ballot box. I vote by my guts and if that doesn't work beause they have out-shitted themselves, I flip coins. Period.

Totally tired of reading more blame xyz comments. Very interested though in all of you talking about it. So, yes, I think it is important to talk here. C99p has a valuable function to promote democratic values.

Peace and Nothing for Ungood.

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“Trauma is not what happens to you.
Trauma is what happens inside you,
as a result of what happens to you.”
— Dr. Gabor Maté

lotlizard's picture

@mimi  
the CEOs of some of the world’s biggest military contractors are now women too.

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-women-defense-ceos-20180808-story...

And now for some time already the head of the CIA has been that torturer lady, Gina Haspel.

That all happened while I wasn’t paying attention. Apparently at some point there was a big push to, so to speak, put a pussy hat on the Pentagon.

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lotlizard's picture

@mimi @mimi  
who despise Germany and Germans — sorry, “Almans” and “Kartoffel” (pejorative terms for Germans). Gosh, they feel just so darn discriminated against all the time. So any platform they’re given, they use to harp on how hard they have it, blah blah.

https://taz.de/ICE-Fahren-im-Ruheabteil/!5644335/

It’s not that I don’t understand the exasperation; stateside I was often enough accused of being an ungrateful immigrant — even though we in Hawaii never came to America; it was America and Americans who came to us.

Still, bitterness as a shtick is such a dead end, turns other people off, and feels like crap to boot. At my age I’m often reminded that there are better things to do with one’s limited remaining time on earth than go in for grievance collection.

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mimi's picture

@lotlizard

Still, bitterness as a shtick is such a dead end, turns other people off, and feels like crap to boot.

So true, I think that some people can't overcome their bitterness, others don't want to overcome it. They need to see everything in the most negative ways to justify their feelings or to take advantage (political or personal) out of it for themselves.

I am an 'operational' immigrant to the US without some of the rights of US citizens, but the same responsibilities as they have. I refused to become a US citizen, but never said that out loud. It is here for the first time I talk about it. I still wouldn't want US citizenship, as long as I can remain a legal permanent resident to the US. I don't want it because of the US' inhumane health care system.

My African husband, for example, became an half orphan at age 12 in 1957. His father worked under German colonial regime in the 1900 to 1916-ies, and lived in area which became a French colony. They came from an area that is the french-speaking part of what is Cameroon today. So, my husband went to French - in colonial times and after Cameroon's independence - schools. Thus he became french-spaeking and the German colonial roots can only be remembered today by the German name of his village he was born, ie 'Lolodorf', 'Dorf' being the German word for 'small village'.

Was my husband an immigrant to Germany ? No, because he was offered a scholarship from the EU to study either in Switzerland, France or Germany. If they hadn't offered him that scholarship, he would have either ended up in the Cameroonian military or would have immigrated into France or Germany as an 'economic refugee' (being dirt poor, which he experienced, he hadn't enough to eat ever so often).

There were lots of reasons why my husband could have been an anti-German immigrant, but he didn't show his feelings as such, openly, in front of other German students. He was though critical of the French and let this shine through in the company of Germans, but not in the company of French. I guess in company of the French he would have sounded a bit openly anti-German. Oh well, that's what humans are.

The French again were very critical of him, because he had so to speak betrayed the French by choosing Germany as the country to study in. But the French didn't say that openly either, they were way too polite and smart and seldom talked in vulgar terms about the Germans at those times. Nevertheless I know for sure that emotionally my husband was 'not happy' and not at home with both, the French or the Germans.

So when he was offered a job in the US, he became familiar with (white) Americans. He felt that they lied much less than the Germans or French. His job was a secure one (which he went through seven interview rounds to be accepted), so he didn't have to fear to lose it and not be able to pay for his living expenses in the US. Nevertheless he would have never accepted US citizenship, which he could have gotten easily if he had wanted to.

His and my son, as a kid, experienced some violent discrimination by German kids and watched his father being silently 'disliked' by Germans. He knew his father disliked 'them Germans' too. My son watched me being burdened with the mutual dislikes of both, though it was never talked about and was kept locked up inside of all of us. My son didn't feel discriminated by his French peers in elemantary school. When we came to the US, he was though very confused in the American school system. Growing into his twenties he started to hate his father, who wanted to make an African out of him, religiously speaking, performing cultural rituals of his father's liking, which my son didn't want to do.

So, as a kid my son wanted to be an American, but had a hard time, because of his school and life experiences with the German and French.

Was he an immigrant into the US? Not really. Later on he became too depressed and poor in the US and ended up in the US military for a pay-check, and quickly learned what it means to fight on the US side in countries similar to his father's home country. He experienced having to kill innocent civilians in Iraq. He learned the lies of US politicians supporting US imperialism oversees. His combat experiences in Iraq has left PTSD symptoms in him, which I watch helplessly not knowing how to help him overcome them.

He ran away to Hawaii after he left the US Air Force and tried to build his life over there. And I didn't get over to not have understood how damaging the US military service could be. I regretted it so much to not have prevented my son from enlisting.

One of the experiences I had in Hawaii visiting my son, was that some Japanese showed a fondness towards me (and were therefore also a little more mellow in their reaction to my son). I couldn't understand why that was. I guess they still think of Japan being somewhat closer to Germany thinking back to time when both countries were allies in wwII. It is only an assumption and I may be very wrong. But the whole experience made me feel sick and stuck in my mind.

One of my nightmare scenarios at that time, was that my son would be deployed to Cameroon, because the US military had a base their to 'help' the Cameroonian political elite fighting their Cameroonian anti-american rebels, classifying them as terrorists and a threat to the US.

Of course that was only in my nightmarish dreams, but I saw my son having to shoot at his father's family and other innocent Cameroonians. Luckily such a scenario never existed. But it could have been easily the case, as US military is not only in the ME and Afghanistan, but in sub-saharan Arican countries like in Burkina Faso, Somalia, Nigeria,. Niger today . see here and here
And frigging unbelievably German military is there too.

Am I bitter? Yes, I feel that you find racial feelings in every corner of the world and such feelings promote abusive advantage-taking of one group of people on the back of another group of people whatever races, religions, ethnicities or nationalities are involved.

Therefore I asked in my previous comment, why one would need to know to what kind of country or ethnicity a person, who committed a violent crime, belongs. It doesn't matter much. The media wants to make the audience watch and listen to what they say, write and produce. If they publish race, ethnicities and religion or if they hide them, you will always have people complain that the media is hiding and lying or is hate-inciting and lying. In the end you just close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears, as you feel overfed with stuff that is not right.

As to the pink pussy hats, may be they could serve as a new 'helmet' of the US and German military. That would be the icing on the cake I am going to bake tomorrow.

Good Night. Sleep well. And again 'Nothing for Ungood' and apologies, if i may have talked about this before and forgot.

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“Trauma is not what happens to you.
Trauma is what happens inside you,
as a result of what happens to you.”
— Dr. Gabor Maté

lotlizard's picture

@mimi  
about the “volcanoes” of fate that formed your “island” in life.

My volcanoes a.k.a. family issues are more run-of-the-mill and mundane.

Last summer at a high school reunion, talking to a sympathetic female classmate, I found myself comparing my school years to Harry Potter’s treatment at the hands of the Dursleys, except there was nothing about me that was magic, only what today would be recognized as Asperger’s or high-functioning autistic spectrum disorder. And in this version, “Harriet” Potter only gets to go to Hogwarts starting with 10th grade and has to go home to the Dursleys every day instead of only at end of term.

Of course, the trouble with that framing is the way it locates all the dysfunctionality in the Dursleys. In real life the dysfunctionality is also ingrained in Harriet. So even though she leaves her birth island in disgust and moves to a galaxy far, far away, ghosts and habits from long, long ago continue to haunt her. She never does find the heroic heroes and heroines holed up in their heroic heroes’ hideout, nor is she able to help the heroic heroes and heroines save the universe and bring about the heveryone-healing happy ending.

Wait a minute — could caucus99percent be that long-sought hideout of heroic heroes and heroines? Wink

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mimi's picture

@lotlizard @lotlizard
I should redact my comment, because, hmm, those 'We know where your kid lives'-spaghetti monsters were trolling my mind. I can't stand these trolls, when I am half awake. I love spaghetti, fear the monsters and am weak in fighting my thoughts.
Wink

Now, though I am probably one of the rare persons, who hadn't read or seen Harry Popper's tales, which also confirms right a comment a Native American Lady's made to me (ie that I am probably too distant from the general cultural environment of my comrades and co-compatriots these days), I will leave my comment in the public, playing the overlooked jealous heroine in this hide-out of ours.

I remember that once upon the time you said something in a short comment about your disorderly dysfunctionalities. And I remember too that I thought to myself I should learn something about it. Asking once the leading male hero of this precious hide-out etablissement, in a pm, the hero said he had no idea what I was talking about. Ha, proof you can stay hidden here. Bingo. Thank God. But now I make another effort to read Harry Popper and to learn for real about your awesome functionalities.

Oh, yeah, C99p, is a place for humble heroes and heroines. I mean, have mercy with them, they need a place to live too, no? I am all for sharing the earth's land- and spiritual mass equally with all the people to give them a space to prosper peacefully.

You are a lovely lady and I can only stay awestruck by the power of your expressions.

... the “volcanoes” of fate that formed your “island” in life...

Wow, you deserve JtC`'s award of being the most heroic humble female wordsmithing author poet. (JtC has a well hidden desire to be our hero too. He is my secret love, I have a couple of loves here, but ... shhh ....)

Thank You, lotlizard. Thanks for the links all the fish.

Air kiss

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“Trauma is not what happens to you.
Trauma is what happens inside you,
as a result of what happens to you.”
— Dr. Gabor Maté

lotlizard's picture

@mimi  
To be honest, I think when they first came out I fell prey to a certain inclination to intellectual snobbery — “if it’s that popular with little kids and all, it can’t be any good, can it?” [turns up nose and reaches for her print copies of The New Yorker and The Economist].

It was only two years ago that I first read the series, as a side effect of making a Braille version of the U.K. edition for a friend.

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lotlizard's picture

@mimi  
http://tonyattwood.com.au/about-aspergers/girls-and-women-who-have-asper...

Amazing insights that, alas, are too late to make a difference? One ends up like Mrs. Figg, except really alone with no Order of the Phoenix supporting her, without even the comfort and companionship of cats and kneazles.

The following is not me, but rather a woman who lived nearby when she was a first-year college student over thirty years ago. Not an Aspie, sort of the exact opposite, with interesting talents and an almost magical level of social skills:

http://tanjasfhoffmann.de/

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mimi's picture

@lotlizard
or am I the idiot again who cant find a way to boost the microphone's level ?

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“Trauma is not what happens to you.
Trauma is what happens inside you,
as a result of what happens to you.”
— Dr. Gabor Maté

lotlizard's picture

@mimi

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I suggest the essential point here is that the US govt., that would be our government for most of us, has NO business telling Britain or any other country what kind of health care system they can have. Does no one understand that whatever we do to others they might someday do to us? That garden in your yard, can't have it anymore because country X is exporting tomatoes and you need to buy from them.

Unfortunately, this doesn't surprise me at all coming out of DC; the only distinction I can see between the two major parties on the matter of national sovereignty is that the Dims. think the whole idea is obsolete, while the Rethugs want sovereignty for us but no one else.

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Nastarana