Things Veterans tend to agree on.

Some folks never served. In fact, a LOT of folks never served. So as a result they don't understand why veterans think the way they do. They see the issues and can't understand why a veteran might think the solution different. In some cases, it can lead to outright disrespect and failure to try to understand the other side.

So, here's just a few issues that most veterans I talk to tend to agree on. If you think they sound unfair in any way, I invite you to discuss why you feel that way in the comments.

1. Veterans HATE War and warmongers.

This is completely counter-intuitive to the MSM obsession with "Support the Troops", and may surprise you. However, nearly every combat veteran I've ever spoken to loathes the idea of sending the military into harms way. While they may praise having a "experienced" military, the last thing that they want to see is more people going through the crap they did. Most Veterans think that the best thing we can do with a Military is bring it home, secure our borders, and rebuild our country.

"Policeman of the world" is a phrase that you will find has a negative opinion among vets. The usual response to "We must do such and such because it is our responsibility" is a resounding and indifferent "Why?" Having seen first hand what that means, Vets are harder to convince. Which is of course you never see combat vets on TV. The talking heads on TV usually have a great deal of experience being insulated from the consequences of their wartime decisions.

2. Please don't tell us "Thank You For Your Service"

Vets HATE that fucking phrase. We hear it all the time and it feels hollow and fake. There's a million ways you can thank a veteran, and that particular phrase has joined "Have a Nice Day" in the annals of things we hate hearing. It feels like lip-service of the worst kind.

I understand that many people say that because they think it's what we like, so that's why I'm going on record about it. We don't. The MSM uses it as a pablum instead of acknowledging the real hell we went through while they supported the politicians who put us there. In essence, it feels official, and if there's one thing we are SICK of, it's official stories and bullshit. We got enough of that in the service. If you really want to thank a vet, come up with your own way of saying it. It's like the difference between a kid's form letter from a class and a package with a bandanna in it, in a war zone. Only one of those shows an insight into what the soldier actually NEEDS.

3. We don't trust the people who were shooting at us.

Vietnam vets have a hard time with people from South East Asia. Iraq and Afghanistan Vets have a hard time with Moslems. This is a fact.

Calling it "Islamophobia" or Racism or whatever you freaking want to. It's not going to change the fact that we are going to have a hard time with the accoutrements and imagery of what we had to fight against. Claim it was all military propaganda and that we are merely poor deluded fools, or whatever. It isn't going to change the fact that we are going to have a hard time with it.

So, forgive us if we bow out of conversations that discuss these groups. Forgive us if we say no comment. Because when we say this it's because we're keenly aware of the fact that society doesn't approve of a combat veteran's natural tendency to classify former threats as potential threats. The idea that we simply need to go to a mosque or spend time with Moslem people to change our mind is frankly insulting. But that's exactly what we will get if we continue the conversation, so forgive us if we avoid the topic.

4. Vets tend to favor Border Security

Again, this is one that isn't very "Liberal" but it's a tendency. Vets are used to thinking of territory as secured or unsecured. Unsecured territory is dangerous as hell. So as a result, combat vets tend to favor tough border laws. Note that I don't say a word about immigration. Many Vets are GREATLY in favor of loosening and making citizenship much easier to obtain.

We just don't like the idea of people here illegally. Once again, many will put this down to racism or any other word that fits their thought of the day. It's not about that. It's about the fact that we're used to jumping through hoops because of the need to keep ourselves and those we care about safe. People who break those rules are a direct threat to our sense of security.

5. Vets Favor Large Military Budgets, But only because of the consequences of small ones

When the military budget gets cut, the Military invariably takes it from those that need it most. It means less training, less pay, less benefits and early retirements for the soldiers. The defense contractors NEVER get the shaft. So as a result, most vets favor military spending, not because they want to support the MIC, but because of bitter experience where they saw their own livelihood shrink because of a politician's "Whim."

If you wanted to earn a vet's vote, start talking about shrinking the contracts for defense, not a word about shrinking the Military itself. While that may seem like a difference without distinction, it's actually HUGE.

NO soldier likes defense contractors. They expect you to be a test bed for toys that the Army has bought when you'd rather be using something that works. What did we get for tight confines of the city streets of Iraq? HUGE freaking Trucks that were immobilized by one explosion. Now, not only were we a sitting duck, we had dozens of rooftops all around us for the enemy to pick us off one at a time, should they have a follow up plan...

Soldiers care about their health care, their pay, their ability to plan and retire. Cutting the budget without securing those fundings ensures that the Military thinks you really don't give a crap about them.

So there's a few insights into why Vets think the way they do. Course I don't speak for all vets, just the ones I know and speak to. If you find any of this objectionable or want further clarification, feel free to ask. Course, also feel free to give your own opinions on vets, past or present, who you know. More information is always a good thing.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBPSr4TsQkI]

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Pricknick's picture

I agree with the first four. The problem with number five is that us "lifers" were in long enough to see the complete corruption of the military budget. We're tired of supporting the military while suffering it's underfunded aftermath when it comes to medical care for those injured by war.
Cut the defense budget.

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Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.

detroitmechworks's picture

that the contractors got the axe first, I agree wholeheartedly.

It just seems that every time we do, the VA always seems to be the one who gets hit, along with the active duty folks.

Just my opinion of course.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

Bisbonian's picture

True fact. The people who don't have the power to do anything about it will face the brunt of any spending cuts, military or not.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

detroitmechworks's picture

how essential it is to get money OUT of politics, as soon as possible.

Seems like every good intention is sabotaged to only hurt those who can least bear it.

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in that particular way, but it does make sense. And the defense budgets have ALWAYS pissed me off in that no weapon systems ever really gets cut, but pay does. It is disgraceful in so many ways that active duty military families qualify for SNAP too. No one who puts their ass on the line should have to rely on subsidies to feed their families, ever.

I agree totally with that "thank you for your service" thing. When my niece graduated from Air Force basic I took a bunch of them to the mall by the base. I didn't know what in hell to say when someone would thank ME for their service either! I have co workers who know I served and do it, and I try to tell them why I find that annoying. Most don't get it, and if I do go too far then I risk getting into political polices that got us INTO the wars - not a nice convo to have with a co worker who you don't feel the burning need to piss off - and both "sides" do it too, I have conservatives that say it as well as lefty Libs. For me, most of them will back off when I say I did not do combat and do not feel that thanks is owed to me. Nice, politically correct way, no?! I find it insulting and trite too.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

detroitmechworks's picture

Sometimes I do put my foot in my mouth, but I actually had a nice talk today with a fellow veteran and the subject came up. Felt it was worth expressing neutrally and fairly.
And I also agree that nobody who serves should ever have to be on welfare.

I usually say something along the lines of "Wow. Don't know exactly what you went through, but I know it was tough." but I don't have a "Script". I try to match it to the person I'm talking to, because every vet had a different experience, I find.

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TrueBlueinWDC's picture

It's what you think you're supposed to say, even if you feel uncomfortable saying it or worse... rote or flippant. My dad and brother are vets, and I volunteer at a local vets' organization partly out of respect for them. The other reason was because of the post-9/11 days when libs were considered unpatriotic (my ass). Anyway, I don't normally say it in the course of day-to-day interactions, but I find myself saying it on Veterans' Day even to the people I've been hanging out with all year long or when an Honor Bus comes into town... and I always feel awkward.

As for borders, I also support strong borders... maybe that's my upbringing. But I'm not anti-immigration, either, and would like to see compassionate immigration reform.

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"Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change." Stephen Hawking

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Bisbonian's picture

Three officers flew one enlisted guy (the Boom Operator...gas pumper) to work. When we went to war, the military gave him a tent, and three hot meals. So, he didn't need BAS any more! (Basic allowance for subsitance...a roughly 50% add-on to his meager pay to cover rent and food and shit.) Oh, but then how does his wife pay the rent back home?

We divided his loss of BAS by three, and each chipped in that amount for him to send home.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

detroitmechworks's picture

And reinforces my view of the military. At its BEST, it's a family that takes care of its own. At its worst, it screws over people randomly, and if it weren't for good people, the entire system would collapse.

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Bisbonian's picture

With halfway decent healthcare. I am a Socialist because of my military training!

(Not really..I was before that, but I could have been.)

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

hester's picture

Helps me to understand and to stop using that phrase, when I want to thank the Vets I see in my grocery store. It explains a lot. Thanks for this. Today is a good day. I learned something new.

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Don't believe everything you think.

detroitmechworks's picture

And I hope it didn't come across as condescending.

Just something that I think people do because they genuinely WANT to be supportive, but don't realize how it comes across.

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hester's picture

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Don't believe everything you think.

Bisbonian's picture

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

I don't get angry when I hear "Thank you for your service," but it does make me feel uncomfortable and always makes for an awkward moment. I don't really know how to respond---although lately I have taken my cue from exlrrp, and I say "You're welcome, America" as a joke and move the conversation to something else.

I am sometimes embarrassed/ashamed about number 3, especially because I was an advisor to the Afghan National Army, and lived alongside a whole mess of Muslims in Kunar. They risked their lives on patrols with me--several died. Some are still friends today (on Facebook). Yet, I cannot help but say it is true. I don't like it, but there it is. I still would never support any type of Anti-Muslim legislation or anything, but on a personal level, I don't want to live in or visit a Muslim country. My grandfather was in WWII and he would never buy anything German or visit Germany.

I especially hate war mongers, because the vast majority of them never served, or if they did, they were Fobbits/REMFs. I fucking hate those people (not all of them, just the war monger ones).

For number five, I agree that it is mostly true, but lots of veterans don't support big military budgets. I fall into that camp, along with Smedley Butler and a few others.

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detroitmechworks's picture

You've added a lot to the discussion and I really appreciate it.

Number 3 is a hard one to talk about, I agree. Especially when folks are looking for a social weapon, it's a tough one to address. I don't have a solution, but acknowledgement and acceptance goes a long way, IMHO.

Totally agree about the POG's. And just for the hell of it... Because this was popular when I was in country...

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Hqv5yBaXaI]

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Shigeru's picture

second because I got very sick and left country before six months, thus was returned to VN for another tour of 12 months, during which I was wounded but not badly enough to go home.

The first time I had ever, ever, ever been thanked for my service was in 2014. At first I was flummoxed, never having heard it before, but it does get a bit bewildering now. If it is individuals I assume they are well meaning. If it is from the media, politicians I just ignore it.

BTW I get sickened now with all the welcome home VN veterans crap that is going around. 50 years late is way too late. Now it is just being done for political cover.
I now live pretty much full time in Japan and my wife took me by a place where the US dead were prepped for shipment home. It is a warehouse area by a creek with a small pond. The people who processed our dead were part time workers, usually untrained HS or college students. In addition according to the locals the creek and pond ran red with blood for years after the war ended. So no, I have zero respect for our politicos, chickenhawks, and the wealthy who do none of the heavy lifting.

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Shigeru's picture

On point 3, while I don't disagree entirely, I bear no il will towards thep people I fought against. In fact I sometimes have more respect for enemy soldiers than towads our chcken hawk politicians. Which is virtually all of them; male, females, repub, or dem.
Other points:

  1. Most of us hate chicken hawks.I mean hate, not mildly dislike
  2. It is hard to fit back in society. Really, really hard. Esecially for combat veterans, not only because of adjustmnt issues, but also because of prejudice against us.
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detroitmechworks's picture

The attitude of the chickenhawk is one that is purely artificial false bravado. It is the nullification of all of your fear, exhaustion, and sacrifice with a condescending smirk and confidence that THEY could do better. I have nothing against the armchair historian who wants to re-examine ideas and maneuvers, but the fool who dismisses the service members struggles is worthy of nothing but contempt. And yes, when those assholes are on TV getting paid to spout their crap it is disgusting.

On point 3, your amplification is absolutely correct. I don't think we actively want to harm the people we fought against. But it IS an unease that will just not go away. I can't express it any better than just a general feeling of unease and desire to avoid the people/situations as much as possible.

And YES, it is hard as hell to fit back in. I think it's the reason in the past so many vets joined social clubs like the Moose Lodge or the Elks. Just any place where your experience was accepted and acknowledge instead of being viewed as a "Crazy dangerous guy"...

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jiordan's picture

every time I read one of your essays. Never thought about border security that way, and I really appreciate that you phrased in a way that made sense to me but also made me look at it differently.

And as for #2--I've never felt comfortable saying that phrase, it always felt phony, so I'm glad to know it feels that way to the recipients as well. Selfish, I guess, but I've never been able to bring myself to say it and always felt guilty. I never agreed with the wars and thanking someone for their service felt like thanking them for killing people, which seemed entirely wrong-headed and hypocritical, but I've never blamed the soldiers for doing their jobs--I admire them for that, I just think, thanks to stupid, greedy warhawks (looking at you, Clinton), they have a shitty job to do. Maybe that's what I'll tell the next vet I wind up talking to...

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detroitmechworks's picture

My kids tell me I should be a teacher, as does everybody who talks to me. Smile I take that as one of the greatest compliments I can receive.

And I'm glad that it also feels false to those saying it. It never showed up before 9/11, at least not that I can remember. I'm trying to remember how we talked to soldiers and veterans before then, and I am honestly drawing a blank. The societal rubber stamp comment just never did it for me. And your idea sounds fine. Anything that treats a vet as a human is preferable IMHO.

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Thanks for saying it.

I especially can't stand politicians who never served a day in the military throwing around World War II terms like "carpet bombing" in a vain attempt to hide their ignorance. How many times will our armed forces be ordered to carry out dumb missions by clueless officials? Nothing is impossible for the man (or woman) who doesn't have to do it himself (herself).

This goes for both major political parties. Remember when Madeleine Albright sarcastically asked Colin Powell, "What's the point of having this superb military that you're always talking about if we can't use it?" Our job is to defend the USA and our close allies, when attacked. "Team America World Police" was intended as satire.

I know it wasn't until I was on active duty that I realized we had non-citizens serving in the U.S. Army. Well, if that's not something that ought to be a path to citizenship I don't what is.

As for border security, I like to quote General George S. Patton, Jr. on the "folly of fixed fortifications." Trump's Great Wall is a fantasy - a 2,000 mile wall along the Mexican border would be impossible to build, and the 600-mile fence we have now is next to worthless. It's a "solution" in search of a problem, too: net migration from Mexico has been negative for the last decade.

Also, an estimated 40% of undocumented immigrants currently living in the U.S. crossed the border legally and overstayed their visas.

The Pentagon budget, including overseas contingency operations, exceeds the military spending of all other nations in the world combined, including our allies. Meanwhile countries that live under the U.S. security umbrella are free to spend money in economically beneficial ways.

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"We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty."

detroitmechworks's picture

Knew a gentleman from the Republic of the Philippines who served. One of the best soldiers I ever met.

Normally, I loathe Patton, having read his letters. (I also served in the 3D ACR, in which he served as Colonel.) Now, Trump's wall is certainly idiotic, agreed. However, at the same time, border security also refers to the influx of corporations using foreign labor under dubious visas, etc.

I personally think it's far more important to truly incentivize citizenship and to close Visa loopholes, but many Vets disagree and feel we need other measures. It's a complex problem, but I feel vet's concerns are justified. Pretending it is either Wall or Nothing, as the MSM does, is counterfactual at best, and actively confusing the issue at worst.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

I meant World War II General George S. Patton Jr., who I know only from his writing. I made the correction above.

General George S. Patton III commanded the 2d Armored Division when I was in it (Fort Hood, Texas 1976). He wasn't as inspiring.

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"We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty."

detroitmechworks's picture

3D ACR also had a large exhibit dedicated to him.

I also served at Hood, (07-11) so you have my sympathies. Smile Only thing I really liked about the place was it had a wonderful military library, and I had a chance to read some very good books there.

MOS? I was 13B, but since I served with a Cav unit got to join the "Order of the Spur", etc...

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I was a tank platoon leader, a company XO, and then battalion transportation section leader (delivering fuel and ammo for 63 M-60A1 tanks and other vehicles). They sent us to Grafenwoehr, Germany for six months too.

The Cold War seems like a long time ago, except when I hear the neocons trying to re-start it. What are they thinking?

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"We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty."

detroitmechworks's picture

And that a long cold war will make lots and lots of money for the MIC. Unfortunately, the ROE have changed and it's not going to be a cold war. It's going to be a HOT war and we aren't guaranteed to win it.

BTW: Love Firefly, so great sig!

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>>Vets HATE that fucking phrase. We hear it all the time and it feels hollow and fake.

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******************************

Muerte al fascismo. Muerte a la tiranía. colapso total de los que promueven tampoco. A la pared con el unico porciento%

detroitmechworks's picture

Far too often it's said in a rather flat, dull tone, and feels like an obligation.

Not trying to say don't thank them. Just that ONE specific phrase, delivered in that standard, dull way drives us up the wall.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

1. Veterans HATE War and warmongers.

Fully supported and agreed. To the chorus of "Support The Troops" I hear altogether too often in my home town of Colorado Springs, Colorado, my answer is: "Support Our Troops Right: Bring them all home NOW!

I never served, being a reject. I was rejected for a perfectly bonafide, reasonable cause: I have NO base athletic talent. Specifically, when I was of joining age, I could not run a continuous mile regardless of time allowed -- and the recruiting standards of the day said that I had to be able to run a mile inside of 5:30 (five minutes 30 seconds), IIRC. Again, a reasonable cause for rejection. So veterans do for me things I cannot do for myself. But warmongers piss me off to no limit, as few if any of them have ever served, but they find it perfectly acceptable to put our young men and women in harm's way for causes in which we rightly have no horse in those races.

2. Please don't tell us "Thank You For Your Service". Vets HATE that fucking phrase. We hear it all the time and it feels hollow and fake.

Here, I must ask you and your ilk for a touch of forbearance. While the MSM has indeed rendered this into tasteless pablum, for most of us who offer that to veterans, it isn't. Again, see the notes on (1.) above. In my specific case, I am thanking them for doing something for me, that I needed done, which I was incapable of doing for myself. I also say "thank you" to those who "step and fetch" for me now that I'm crippled by arthritis, too. In addition there's another aspect to this: we are telling you that we DO. NOT. hold you responsible, or to blame, etc., for the abuses to which your service to our common country was subjected by the aforementioned warmongering politicians.

That some of us do not have the gift of better spontaneous phraseology should not be held against us; hence my request for forbearance. Most of us who break out of our shyness shells to say that actually mean everything I said we do above.

Of course, in my own personal case, I back it up where I can -- by resisting our tendencies to endless war and resisting the continuous militarization of our localities and our culture.

3. We don't trust the people who were shooting at us. Vietnam vets have a hard time with people from South East Asia. Iraq and Afghanistan Vets have a hard time with Moslems. This is a fact.

This one has bitten me personally. My entire ancestry (that I know of) was loyal to the United States of America in that War the United States Army, Navy, and Marines fought from 1861 to 1865. And we still don't trust certain secesh slavemongering traitors Southerners, to this very day. (Example: Senator Turtle McConnell from Kentucky.) We criticize Neil Young for pulling his punches:

[video:https://youtu.be/kVRxdPWV3RM width:560 height:315]

As for numbers 4 and 5, I do tend to agree with your view of the problem with insecure borders. But before we get all head-up about building walls and other such shit, how about addressing the root cause of virtually all illegal immigration into this country to begin with? To wit: Trash NAFTA! Mexican corn grower farmers and farmhands should not have to price-compete with subsidized American agrimegabusiness in their own country; neither should American industrial workers have to compete with maquiladora slave laborers in theirs. The only beneficiary of NAFTA is Big Finance Capital; everyone else gets royally fucked. Get the fuck rid of NAFTA, CAFTA, etc., and re-erect reasonable protectionism on both sides of the border, and the pressure on those borders will shrink greatly -- making them much easier and cheaper to secure.

And military budgets: We do need to shrink the military -- profiteers capitalists first! Not only do military contractors need to be put on a diet, it also needs to be a permanent doctrine that the Department of "Defense" never, ever provides the entire economy of a locality, and any existing situations must be decommissioned as soon as humanly possible. Again, the only beneficiary of current spending levels and policy is Big Finance Capital.

In fine, we need to honor our veterans -- by taking the care of the ones we have, at least as well as we promised to; and also, by not creating so many of them in the first place heading forward!

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

detroitmechworks's picture

I've already gone over a few of these in the comments, but it's very nice to hear another perspective on it.

And as far as the budgets go, it just seems the DOD always seems to balance its budget on the backs of the soldiers. First to lose benefits, salary, etc...

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thanatokephaloides's picture

And as far as the budgets go, it just seems the DOD always seems to balance its budget on the backs of the soldiers. First to lose benefits, salary, etc...

No joke. And when the soldiers', sailors', Marines' and Air personnel's salaries get cut, we who live in economically militarized localities get seriously fucked, too. After all, the situation is usually that we cannot go back to the pre-militarization economy, especially on zero notice. Example: here in Colorado Springs, we're now using what was once our agricultural and industrial water to maintain over-large urban populations which were brought here to support all the military bases. That water can't be restored to agriculture and industry; those people still live here and are still drinking, washing, and bathing, and those dwellings are still here too. Upshot: Big Finance Capital (the real estate developers) gets their money, the rest of us just have to suck it up.

As I said before, all military budget cuts need to occur profiteers first. And localities like mine need to have funding to help us break the economic addiction to DoD's money by structuring private-sector civilian economies. As things now stand, if we abruptly stopped having a standing military, Colorado Springs would be a complete ghost town within 30 days.

Sad

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

detroitmechworks's picture

I could seriously get behind a "Stand Down" economy. Instead of being obsessed with cutting, it's more a case of acknowledging the value, but reducing the urgency.

Standing down from our hyper-vigilance as the worlds police for the last fifteen years. It actually REALLY appeals to me as a political slogan, but then I'm just one guy.

Stand Down from Terror? Any other ideas? Just to brainstorm?

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kharma's picture

the others to lesser a extent.
#5 - It always bothered me how when the end of the fiscal year (Oct) comes you spend like a drunken sailor. If you don't use up your fuel (or supplies or anything) for the year, you get less allocated next year. There is an emergency you prepare for in flight and it involves emergency jettisoning of fuel. So at the end of the fiscal year, if our squadron had extra fuel (you always do because you budget it that way so you have it if you need it) then we would waste it including taking off with full tanks and then jettisoning huge amounts (thousands of pounds) over the Atlantic until the aircraft weight was inside the landing envelope. Not only was this a small example of huge waste, but it shows the lack of environmental regulations and controls outside the continental US. That always bothered me that the military has to operate under the use it or lose it principle.

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There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams

detroitmechworks's picture

Military budgeting is insane. In essence there's actual punishment for being thrifty and reasonable.

How to solve it? Absolutely no idea, other than to change the culture of those who allocate funds, and they're so far up their own asses with pork it's insane. Sorry, ranting again.

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Big Al's picture

Right now, the military/national security/intelligence complex runs Americans anywhere from 1.2 - 1.4 trillion in total per year, mostly from the discretionary budget. It is absolutely astounding and what is it for? Where are my enemies? I'm an American, a Veteran, where are my enemies? I don't have any enemies, except the mofos in power who try to create enemies for me.

I can honestly say my time in the Navy didn't color my views on U.S. imperialism, it's what I learned later that tuned me in. I wasn't a combat vet, just spent time on a submarine. So I didn't see people killed, try to kill people or have people try to kill me, at least not literally.

But when I learned the real truth behind WWI, WWII, the Korean War, the Vietnam war, the Iraq war and the War OF Terror, that's when I understood what the enemy represents. The enemy is absolutely those in power who have created this Orwellian atmosphere on earth when humans should be evolving to a higher plane.

It's all built on lies, enemies are created for the powerful to kill people, including the U.S. military service men and women, to gain more power, control and wealth.

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detroitmechworks's picture

But as far as imperialism goes, you're dead right.

Course I'm all in favor of severe military reforms, as I've documented multiple times before. So, I'm not 100% on your side, but I agree that most if not all the wars we fight are unnecessary and only enhance the rich.

But I do think there's a place for a Military in a non-imperialist society. What that is, is of course radically different from its current incarnation.

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Big Al's picture

I'm not sure who agrees with anybody about everything. But again I'd ask, why? Why do humans need militaries? Who are the enemies, each other? How are the enemies created, how do they happen? It's always been the same, war, it's for power, control and wealth. Even the supposed "Good War", WWII, was absolutely manufactured by the powerful and was in reality an extension of WWI, all for power and control. It was not a necessary war, the powers that be wanted it so they created the atmosphere for it. The Civil war was not necessary, that too was about power and control. All those people did not have to die. Humans can resolve their differences without war and fighting, it's been proven on a daily basis throughout history, that is how humans live. The wars are a result of the powerful wanting more, it's always that way.

We should abolish all war and all militaries on the planet, stop the weapons making and burn them all. Back in 1928, much of the planet came together after years of introspection and politics to create the Kellogg-Briand Pact. WWI was so horrendous and manufactured by the powerful it spurred people to say never again.

"The Kellogg–Briand Pact (or Pact of Paris, officially General Treaty for Renunciation of War as an Instrument of National Policy) is a 1928 international agreement in which signatory states promised not to use war to resolve "disputes or conflicts of whatever nature or of whatever origin they may be, which may arise among them."

The world tried to abolish war but the very people who signed the Pact, particularly from the U.S. and Britain, reneged on it. The people of the world wanted it, but those with the power went forth anyway. And now the entire planet is engulfed by war, the Global War OF Terror. Nearing one hundred years later.

We're simply going to have to do it again.

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detroitmechworks's picture

I don't think we'll ever be able to truly get rid of war. I loathe it, and honestly agree with H.G. Wells in one of the first War Games, called "Little Wars" that he Felt that:

"How much better is this amiable miniature than the Real Thing! Here is a homeopathic remedy for the imaginative strategist. Here is the premeditation, the thrill, the strain of accumulating victory or disaster—and no smashed nor sanguinary bodies, no shattered fine buildings nor devastated country sides, no petty cruelties, none of that awful universal boredom and embitterment, that tiresome delay or stoppage or embarrassment of every gracious, bold, sweet, and charming thing, that we who are old enough to remember a real modern war know to be the reality of belligerence. This world is for ample living; we want security and freedom; all of us in every country, except a few dull-witted, energetic bores, want to see the manhood of the world at something better than apeing the little lead toys our children buy in boxes."

So, yeah I wish that we could confine the idea of war to the theoretical, but there's always going to be some asshole...

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Lenzabi's picture

Having served during a cool period in the Cold War (no pun intended), my stationing in Germany was cushy compared to actual combat duty. But yeah cut the contracts down, if they can't prove the toys are actually practical, The Huge Trucks and F-35 come to mind, they get the shit-can job. Make VA more accessible and friendly to veterans, shift some of that money from contractors to making the VA less hostile.

Borders, while I do not agree with the crazy wall idea, sensors and patrols can do a lot to help secure borders. You can't stop all folks coming over illegally as there are many tricks to slip in. But they want in for reasons that have nothing to do with harming America directly or on purpose, small % want to do harm, and if we become aware of them, then it rests on the FBI/DHS and other agencies to actually grab them and not allow the harm to happen.

I agree on the phrase "Thank you for your service" it does ring hollow. Making the VA and other safety nets for us to access less a circus act to get into would b e a big help for starters, why it takes hiring lawyers to get help is beyond me and seems counter-productive!

If we go non-imperialist, then our military, as many others have become, is simply a self defense force. An interesting concept, but maintaining a massive war machine is eating up so much of our national budget, can we actually afford to stay on a war footing for decades on end again? It nearly collapsed us during the Cold War, it is likely to sink us now.

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So long, and thanks for all the fish

detroitmechworks's picture

Since it represents the payment for all the wars we are no longer fighting.

I agree the military budget needs to be slashed, but as i've said many times before, not on the backs of the soldiers and the people who serve them. We need to start standing down, and it's long overdue.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

If we go non-imperialist, then our military, as many others have become, is simply a self defense force. An interesting concept, but maintaining a massive war machine is eating up so much of our national budget, can we actually afford to stay on a war footing for decades on end again? It nearly collapsed us during the Cold War, it is likely to sink us now.

I draw your attention to the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Your last sentence is basically the story of how that happened.

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

detroitmechworks's picture

we use too many mercenaries.

Only thing I worry about is when they turn on us, who are they gonna be supporting? My money's on Corporate entities...

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Lenzabi's picture

too much of our national budget

If we go non-imperialist, then our military, as many others have become, is simply a self defense force. An interesting concept, but maintaining a massive war machine is eating up so much of our national budget, can we actually afford to stay on a war footing for decades on end again? It nearly collapsed us during the Cold War, it is likely to sink us now.

I draw your attention to the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Your last sentence is basically the story of how that happened.
- See more at: http://caucus99percent.com/content/things-veterans-tend-agree#comment-42684

I was actually thinking of the Roman Empire's collapse when I wrote it. Wink

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So long, and thanks for all the fish

widem's picture

For #3 I disagree. As a child in the 1950s, I never thought WW II vets would reconcile with the Japanese but they did eventually. And I think most Vietnam vets have done so with the Viet Cong and the NVA. We were the invaders interfering in a civil war on their soil after they had thrown off their European colonial masters. It took awhile for me but after reading the history of Vietnam it was obvious we had made a very tragic mistake for a million Vietnamese and 58,000+ Americans.

I disagree with #4. The border issue is just being used by the Republicans to stir up their base. To claim terrorists are using our southern borders to infilitrate is so bogus. It's much simpler for terrorists to fly here with forged passports and over stay their student visas. Pretty far fetched that a terrorist is going go to the trouble to go to Mexico and then try to come across the border in the desert when they just have to get on a plane and enroll in a flight school.

I disagree with #5. We have been in the military. We have seen the waste and know the real dollars are going to the defense contractors and arms merchants. And Rumsfeld outsourced many of the jobs that the military used to do itself like pulling "KP" duty.

Now I recognize I may be a minority in my opinions among Vets. But hate is not a strong enough work for my feelings on chicken hawks and war in general.

Semper Fi

Marine Vietnam Vet

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“Some men see things as they are and say, why; I dream things that never were and say, why not.” Robert Kennedy paraphrasing a George Bernard Shaw quote.

detroitmechworks's picture

I'm glad you don't feel that unease. I've met and spoken with other Vietnam vets who still have the problems. Don't know what the answer is there, so thanks for another perspective.

Considering how many vets I know who are Republicans... I hear what you're saying, but it's still an issue that seems to come up in every group session I ever had at the VA, or casual chat across the fence. No matter what the opinion, it's an issue that Vets do talk about quite a bit. Once again, glad to hear your opinion though, even though it differs from my experience.

I agree, the waste is horrific, but once again, it's never the pork barrel stuff that gets cut on the military budget. And yeah, it was the "Security Contractors" who let a guy through at the base I was at who shot almost fifty people. Just have to find a way to cut out the crap without hurting the troops.

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lotlizard's picture

Being taken for Japanese although I’m actually mostly “paké” (Hawaiian of Chinese ancestry).

Hawaii was bombed by imperial Japan, millions of Chinese died because of imperial Japan, but random haole guy (not even always a vet) is unloading his hatred of Japan and Japanese people on me?

Update: “Why Do All Asians Look the Same?” by Bruce Reyes-Chow
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-reyeschow/asians-look-the-same_b_172...

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detroitmechworks's picture

It's a sensitive and hard topic to talk about.
I honestly want to put it down to the toxicity of war, period. War has a negative effect on the human psyche.
You're right. It isn't a good thing. But it's essential for understanding the mentality of Veterans. How do we solve it? I don't know. I'd like to think that when we can end stupid wars this unease will end.

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