The condescending style of the Clinton people and this fall
So a good guy, Teacherken, writes the latest in a sequence of diaries essentially saying the Sanders people should all give up. The tenor is all the same: we told you he would lose.
Now most of these people never thought Sanders would break 30, so the idea the know something we don't is absurd. We long since outperformed their wildest expectations.
So I wrote this:
No it really is. Profoundly condescending.
You know, and maybe this will come as a shock to you, but we Sanders supporters can do math.
All of us have always known this was a long shot. Why people think they are telling us something we don’t know is a mystery to me.
I have been running delegate projections here, which includes an online model of every CD in the Democratic Primary since November.
And I don’t know why people who supported Clinton, who almost to a person completely underestimated him, now think their political acumen is better than those of us who worked for Sanders when not one of them would have dreamt he would win anything.
Even the electability argument is missing since Sanders runs better that Clinton against Trump and Cruz in most of the polling over the last month.
Those of us who worked for Sanders knew that we were building something far beyond this election. Something not reliant on big money from rich donations. A different type of politics.
IF we fail, we still will have accomplished a lot.
But that is OUR accomplishment, not yours. It is based on a read of modern politics very different from your own. Rather than trying to give a well meaning but counter-productive lecture here is a suggestion:
Try listening.
Try understanding that an entire generation is rejecting politics as usual. Try listening to us explain why so many in that generation find Clinton so unappealing. She is going to need those votes in the fall: I see nothing that you have written here that tries to figure out how she reaches those people.
I know these lectures mean well — but you can’t begin to understand how they appear to Sanders supporters. Honestly, if you did people here wouldn’t be writing things like this.
You would start by listening: but that would mean you would really think this is over.
And I don’t think you do.
Comments
I should also mention that I saw the commonmass
takedown, and to be honest, he pretty much earned the ban hammer. He really flipped out. Like, personality-disorder level stuff.
I was never particularly comfortable with his compulsion to boast about his sex life, either. If he'd been a heterosexual man, he would have been buried under HRs for that.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
He still should have been buried under HRs
He once directly replied to a comment of mine suggesting there might be something wrong with gay men who prefer a certain sexual position.
prog - weirdo | dog - woof
I missed all that!
I should have read the comments...
commonmass seemed to me to be prone to heavy drinking.
tk might benefit from tossing back few beers.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
My experience was much similar.
I'd tip,recommend and comment on his diaries but never a response except once when I asked about Leaves.
He didn't like that at all!
There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.
A word of compassion for the younker:
I criticized my parents' generation, too, until I realized how fucked up mine is. I now think that it has always been that way. But they must've done something right because there's still people like us around. What do you wanna bet the Reeps are doing THEIR math? Think they figure 1/3 of the Dems and 1/2 of the independents won't vote for She Whose Turn It Is?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire
too polite! TeacherKen is an NPR Democrat
Some people lack confidence in their own opinion and look to others to find out what they should be thinking and who they should be supporting. They believe that that is maturity. However, folks like that are why the word "sheeple" was invented.
Spot on in this case. Sad for an educator.
sheeple?
[video:https://youtu.be/Wo_Ejfc5hW8 width:560 height:315]
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Thank you
This ad by far is the best thing Carly Fiorina was and will ever be responsible for.
prog - weirdo | dog - woof
& tk will be first in line to blame bernie supporters for
shill's loss in november (if she gets that far).
i never realized what an arrogant pos tk was until this campaign. he's just like the candidate he supports.
I'm not at all surprised about TK
His diaries, all of them have always been "look at me". On every OT he'd "invite readers to my diary on X". it was always and ever about TK. Always. He wants a seat at the table and this is how he gets it. I never felt he had core principles at all, except narcissism. Sorry. That's how I see it.
Don't believe everything you think.
He is not very left wing.
He is not very left wing.
no--if anything, he's a conservadem.
he wrote a diary back in december(?) wherein he related the contents of a letter he claims he wrote to jim webb (who he says he supported for the senate), imploring him not to mount an independent campaign, & how it would destroy the d's chance to retain the wh.
it's clear, now, in retrospect, that he was really attempting to protect hillary's right flank. what an ass.
I got troll rated last night
I got troll rated last night for telling Teacherken he was smarmy. He came in a post about Bernie getting 4 million in contributions and talked about how we had to go through the 5 stages of grief. What an ass, and I told him so.
Tk was always about Tk
"Just call me Hillbilly Dem(exit)."
-H/T to Wavey Davey
I sincerely hope they stand by you
If you decide you want to stay there. The dealership, I mean.
I have not been back since the fifteenth, or I would have uprated.
Once the abuse went unchecked, evil prevaileth.
5 stages of grief has a very specific meaning, and to use it for insult is smarmy.
I am ok for now, but if Bernie
wins a lot, it may get bad for all there.
Life is good. It's just a blog.
I saw the writing on the wall when I started getting
hide ratings for comments that were pretty much on par for me - for 12 years at DKOS. I got my first slap on the wrist and had to promise to be nice - something that had never happened before. After that, almost every comment I made had a Hide rating from someone. So I guess they started following users to piss them off - and they did. I have an extremely low tolerance for BS.
I saw the writing on the wall when I started getting
hide ratings for comments that were pretty much on par for me - for 12 years at DKOS. I got my first slap on the wrist and had to promise to be nice - something that had never happened before. After that, almost every comment I made had a Hide rating from someone. So I guess they started following users to piss them off - and they did. I have an extremely low tolerance for BS.
HR and flag abuse
In eight years I have never been timed out. Only ever had a couple of hr's, from teacher haters in education threads. Til this election. Got my first real HR from Armando for paraphrasing news articles about the former S o S and FOIA investigations, flagged for disagreement, of course. Then got some flags for saying I would never vote for her (before the purge.) In eight years, next month. I saw the writing on the wall, too. I don't cuss people out, I never diaried, and I rarely HR/flagged except spammers and truly awful messes.
I was nobody there, am nobody here, but for real they do not deserve my clicks.
I saw the writing on the wall when I started getting
hide ratings for comments that were pretty much on par for me - for 12 years at DKOS. I got my first slap on the wrist and had to promise to be nice - something that had never happened before. After that, almost every comment I made had a Hide rating from someone. So I guess they started following users to piss them off - and they did. I have an extremely low tolerance for BS.
[redacted by author for lack of compassion] n/t
Improve the Resilience Resource Library by adding your links.
Vote Smart - Just the Facts - 40,000 politicians by name or zipcode
well ... I don't like to badmouth people ...
I am not that smart as being taken seriously by seriously educated English teachers like TK and commonmass and all others who can shine with the brilliance of their knowledge, ethics and humane hearts. I self-censored myself to comment in any of TK's diaries. I met him twice in person. The first time I was scared of him, the second time I was not, but he was hard for me to understand (literally, he talked fast and in a low voice and all his thinking is always complex and multifaceted. I felt a bit incapacitated to participate what became more a monologue of his, but was meant to be a dialogue). I do not want to talk badly about him. He is a good humane man with good intentions. So, I will not join you in the brouhaha of making disappointments about him more vocal than you feel it to be necessary.
But I read the linked diary and couldn't help thinking very simple things about it. (I can't do more than simple, sorry)
1.
I really can't believe he believes himself in that statement. Math is malleable and can be used to prove a lot of things, that are neither the truth nor a lie. They prove things you want to prove, it's up to you how to use the math and what for. He is working within the current electoral system and never questioned its "morality" of being a fair and just system.
What he doesn't seem to count into the equation is that many people don't want to live and vote and elect their representatives with that kind of "unethical system" anymore. If Math doesn't lie, it also doesn't say the truth about the electoral system, which is simply to many of us so unacceptably wrong and rigged that the so-called not lying math becomes rather irrelevant.
2.
I would think intellectually honest in his mind, doesn't include to be morally right. I rather feel right with my morals than right with my math.
Teacherken scared me in the past more than I liked. I know he wouldn't have been the right teacher for a kid like my son. Not intellectually capable enough to follow the teacher, I guess. Like me. And my son. Sometimes it seemed to be a drag to read through his diaries. I blamed that on myself. I never knew how to pinpoint those feelings of mine. In the end of such inner questioning of mine I resorted to my mother's advice to know it's better to leave some thoughts unexpressed and to swallow the words and digest them in silence.
He sure is a fine man, who sticks to his wife and loves her dearly. I value that very much. He is a fine human being. And his math is ... oookayyy. (in my other life a long time ago I did a lot of math ... it always ended up to be fuzzy.)
Math doesn't lie.
People with Math lie. Often, to themselves.
And how certain are you that your interaction with TK was "meant to be a dialogue"? Perhaps he meant it be exactly the monologue you experienced.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
I am certain it wasn't intentional, he is getting old, he was
tired and I can imagine he talks a lot in his mind, more or less to himself. I don't think he has a clear conviction about his political ideology. May be that is smart. From the link I got here in the thread from one of his diaries in 2011, I think he simply is a little confused these days. If one doesn't like one's political position, one can disagree with that person, without pulling down a person as a human being. I just can't handle well the outpouring of feelings against a specific person. I don't hate Clinton and don't hate Obama, but I absolutely don't want them to continue to be in power.
Let me offer the flip side
And I really do appreciate your thoughts.
I teach math, and people can make math lie. You've covered it well.
Re: TK Smarm. Don't lecture people about being intellectually honest without expecting the flak to fly. See point #1 you made. Point two is insulting and judgmental and as a very intellectual person who finds almost nothing honest about his candidate and the practice of politics or the state of the race, I would invite him to stifle himself.
I teach secondary special education math and science, I am very smart and I am very good at simplifying the complex without insulting people's intelligence. Would that your 'fine man' could or would do the same.
And please, don't blame yourself for his inadequacies.
Any time math discussions come up...
I of course think of the PROOF that 7 X 13 = 28
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkbQDEXJy2k]
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
reminds me of something
my son had to learn long divisions by hand first in the french school system, then in the German school system and finally in the American. They all do it differently. That's not only frigging confusing for a child but for all the teachers as well (up to college level). the only methods my son could remember, which seem to have been hardwired for sure was the German one, but no teacher could understand what he was doing. And were puzzled that he could come up with the correct result.
Funny how you all always have some slap stick video clip for everything at hand.
I'm a theater/film buff...
So as a result, my brain easily selects clips that fit the scenario. (Also did a review show for a couple years on the internet, so old habits die hard.)
I guess it just goes to show that everything old is new again, eh?
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
it also shows how much everyone is living in the
fictional world. It's amazing how often people refer to movie' clips to prove the facts of the real world to be correct. Especially sci-fi movies... I still live in the cave world and watching you guys posting one clip after the other just boggles my mind. But it's a lot of fun. And for the music, it's absolutely wonderful. Thanks.
Hence why I go for HUMOR.
I find clips and music work well when trying to be humorous, mainly because most folks are more visual than we want to admit.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Simplicity is a gift
I hate that we've indoctrinated people to undervalue their own intelligence in such a way. Complication isn't profundity. It isn't better because it's complicated. Just because something is simple doesn't mean it isn't right or profound or valuable. I tell my students all the time to say it as simply and truthfully as they can.
It's not a deficiency. It's an asset.
"Math doesn't lie."
-- Anonymous
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Nope, you cannot.
They own your existence in their neighborhood.
The only people I had phone contact with
in my 10 years at TOP was commonmass and Ilbear. Tricia Wise sent me a couple of helpful emails about feral cats.
I missed out on lots of controversies. More often than not, I never finished reading a long comments thread.
I went there for information and for the brilliant diaries that gave insight and true context to media talking points. I depended on the diarists to dig up the background info that my limited time prevented me from doing.
I am now seeing my needs met right here!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
The Clinton Campaign and their legion of
brainwashed supporters are conducting a clumsy psy-ops war against Berners and they are coming at us on a multitude of fronts:
1. Using fear to shame us into lining up behind Clinton, portraying Trump as a super-villain Hitler. The very same guy Bill golfs with, the very same guy at whose wedding the Clintons were seen yukking it up over caviar and champagne.
2. Demoralization. Everything from the media on down to corporate dem blog sites and even to individual persons on social media, telling us that we MUST choose Hillary or we are doomed and it's your fault if you don't! One of my (now former) FB friends just yesterday assured me that I will be responsible for back alley abortions if I don't vote for Hillary. See #1 above
3. Total media blackout. Many Sanders supporters are unware of marches for Bernie that have sprag up all over the country and hundreds, sometimes thousands in each city, marching in support of Bernie Sanders. Last night in Utah the crowd was 17,000 people! He'll be here in Seattle tomorrow. We had about 17,000 last summer, tomorrow will be a blow out! The Sanders campaign has to be the most underreported story in the history of American politics. The corporates do not want this revolution and they will do ANYTHING to stop it!
That includes shutting down the internet at some point, I suppose. That's how the Arab spring was hampered, and it's already routine to shut down cell towers during protests in big cities in America. I know I sound a bit paranoid, but I think if Sanders wins the big blue states as he is projected to, despite corporate media interference and blackouts and demoralizations, the people will not give up.
We have to remain impervious to these techniques which are, truly, psy-ops. Propaganda if you will. Brainwashing. KILL YOUR CORPORATE TV and stay the hell away from brainwashing blogs!
Peace and infinite love.
It's not paranoia...
When they really ARE out to get you. It's called paying attention.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Condescending Teacherken
I read a couple of Teacherken's commentaries and didn't like them. The only worthwhile thing I could derive from his pompous and long-winded
lectures was the inspiration to stop reading them. TK reminded me of one of Dickens's characters -- Mr. Pecksniff, perhaps.
Pages