Beyond Bernie
Wink wrote a pro-Bernie essay that I mostly agree with.
Chris Hedges wrote an anti-Bernie essay that I mostly agree with.
Just like Donald Trump is important, but still mostly a symbol of a larger problem, we shouldn't get hung up on Bernie Sanders.
Bernie never intended to overturn the corrupt system. Like FDR before him, Bernie sees his job as saving the existing system from itself. His intentions are noble and helpful, but even Bernie underestimates how broken the system is.
Nevertheless, and here's the important part, Bernie Sanders is necessary. Absolutely, unquestionably necessary.
If I was to compare Bernie Sanders to a historical figure, I would maybe choose Francisco I. Madero, who started the Mexican Revolution in order to reform and save the existing system, before he become a victim of events (and a bullet).
Bernie has filled the necessary role of opening up the Overton Window.
Previously forbidden words like "socialism" are no longer taboo.
Even more importantly, Bernie forced the establishment to show their hand and to openly rig an election against him. Thus shaking the faith of millions of Americans in our phony democracy.
Someone had to do this before any real, substantial change is possible.
For that we are all indebted to Bernie.
What comes next is the long overdue effort to reform the system.
This is also an absolutely necessary step. It has to happen, no matter if you think the system can be reformed or cannot be reformed.
No substantial change can happen without this step happening first, because even if the system cannot be reformed, that fact has to be proven to the general public before they will embrace anything more radical.
Can the political system be reformed? Neither you nor I know.
I have my doubts, but it can't be ruled out. If South Korea can do it, then it's possible here too. But that doesn't make it likely.
How long will the effort at reforming the system go on? It's impossible to say, although we'll certainly still be in the reform stage in 2020.
Much of this depends on the economy, which may be about to roll over. A full 40% of the population is barely hanging on, and that's too many people to passively accept starving to death.
Think of the food riot as a revolutionary indicator.
The next recession will create a crisis in the Republican Party.
Almost all of the Republican areas are depending on Trump's promise of economic growth, while the Republican establishment fully intends to gut what little of the safety net that still exists.
That means a lot of desperation for a lot of already angry people.
If you want the system to change, then you'll want Bernie to run in 2020, because the Dems will never allow him to win (again).
The Dems will almost certainly be more subtle about cheating Bernie next time, but the end result will still show the bankruptcy of the Democratic Party.
Thus 2020 will create a crisis in the Democratic Party.
Only at this point, after 2020, will a third party have a real chance.
Lots of other darker and more dangerous things will also have a real chance.
Comments
We can navel gaze until 2020 about...
whether or not it's a good idea for one particular politician to run.
At a certain point there must be action. If that action consists of getting out the vote and getting people to the polls, I will bow out. Changing narrative and winning hearts and minds is playing by the same rules that got us into this mess, and will not change anything. It doesn't work in our wars, and it certainly doesn't work in our politics, which at this point have degenerated into a war with clearly defined sides.
If that action consists of going to war against TPTB, you can also count me out. For obvious reasons.
I've seen repeated Liberal Heroes touted through the media as someone who has the "vision" if we will only trust him again. I have no interest in 2008, The Sequel.
For those who demand I personally give an answer if I do not agree with any of the obvious choices
42
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
You'll change your tune at your first food riot
There's nothing like an empty belly to get someone to change their mind and act.
My favorite Jewish saying is: Food on the table? Many problems. No food on the table? Just one problem.
You can call watching a collapsing system "navel gazing", but personally I think of it as a historic turning point being played out live.
Should such a day come...
I of course will be a loyal citizen who understands that the rations are only for the duration of the emergency, and will remain home while the disturbance is brought under control by the fine liberal president who assures us that the rioters are all criminals that must be detained in the freedom camps.
/snark
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
For the benefit of those in the NSA
I too plan on being a loyal citizen and peacefully starving in silence like a good patriot should.
Well, as a poor veteran...
I of course, would be reduced to merely relying on charity...
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snwqp-7QD7M]
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Bernie is John the Baptist crying out in the wilderness
"Make way for the Lord (salvation)" . . .
He is not salvation, but gave us a pretty good start.
Food riot.
Texas rates last = #50 - of the states producing local food. That is why I am so psycho about producing local food.
Let's grow food. Let's invent ways to make electricity. Let's embrace ways to live without electricity. Let's make shipping containers into affordable housing (or other ways). Let's create our own internet. Let's make our own music. Let's feed those around us (Stone Soup?). Let's become the Amish (maybe?).
Sure, we will vote. But what we do here and now with those around us is more important.
Marilyn
"Make dirt, not war." eyo
I watched a tyt interview
They were interviewing a progressive candidate from West Virginia that voted for Trump.
The whole interview was about that. But he said something that got ignored. He said that 90% of families in his district relied on the local food bank. 90%
so sad
Marilyn
"Make dirt, not war." eyo
Ande he voted for Trump
Economic disaster in Germany gave Hitler, not a Leftist reformer.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Let's be plain about what gave us Hitler.
During a time of Great Depression and political turmoil, President Paul von Hindenburg wanted his close associate (and general unpopular liar and drinking buddy) Franz von Papen to be chancellor. The Right had been in power, and the chancellor in charge was Kurt von Schleicher, who was pretty close to being a de facto dictator anyway, because he ruled through "Presidential government," which gave him (among other things) the power to dissolve the Reichstag and to rule by decree.
All of these characters were right-wingers and none of them had any respect for democracy, and they all disliked the SPD and the KPD, although they generally believed that Hitler was too far to the right for their tastes. They, in short, wanted to be conservative dictators, rather than being Nazi dictators. Their governments had in general bungled the Great Depression and were generally unpopular. Anyway, eventually what happened was that von Papen persuaded von Hindenburg that von Schleicher had to go, and that the way to do this was to appoint Hitler chancellor under the theory that if he were surrounded by a majority-conservative cabinet this would "domesticate" him. (Before they did this they tried to persuade Hitler to accept a secondary post in a conservative government run by von Papen; Hitler refused this offer -- it was Chancellor or nothing for him.)
Now, there was no secret by the beginning of 1933 as to what Hitler was about. Mein Kampf came out in 1925. But the conservatives wanted Nazi support anyway, so as to retain the allegiance of at least some of the masses and the military. So Hitler was made Chancellor, and the rest is an addendum. Von Schleicher was killed in the Night of the Long Knives. Von Papen was made into an ambassador, and von Hindenburg died of lung cancer.
Now, is Trump anything like Hitler? Not really. Trump is a conservative populist and an asshole, as his books show. I could see the conservatives in the US government, either (D) or (R), appointing someone like Hitler, though.
“Those who make Bernie Sanders impossible will make Luigi Mangione inevitable." - Dan Berger
There are however Nazis
in his circle.
Maybe not Hitlers, but certainly Nazis.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
Could we name names?
Also I'm sure everyone here would be interested in their plans for kicking the Jews out of the US -- remembering that Hitler was already public about kicking the Jews out of Germany when he took power on 30 January 1933.
“Those who make Bernie Sanders impossible will make Luigi Mangione inevitable." - Dan Berger
Replace Jew with hispanic, black, or Muslim and
replace Germany with the US, and you have the same thing.
Besides, it is so much fun calling them Nazis. They just hate it.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
the foo shits
Yeah, when the foo shits, it just sucks, doesn't it?
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Bannon.
Has Nazi written all
over him. And gone, maybe, but I'm sure he still is in dRump's "kitchen cabinet."
What's his name, the tall skinny 30-something fuck that, "from reports," essentially created this separating families and jailing the kids policy. Well, virtually all of dRump's cabinet, really. neoNazis the whole lot, if not the real (Third Reich) deal. It's my assertion that many an elected Repub is a Third Reicher. That it has taken 70 years, but Nazi Germany has won WWII, their Total World Dominance well underway.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
Bannon is at worst a Nazi sympathizer.
I guess part of my point in encapsulating Hitler's rise to power is that none of the Germans I mentioned above (outside of Hitler -- I mean von Papen, von Schleicher, von Hindenburg) was in 1933 an actual Nazi. They were your garden-variety set of right-wing jerks. They did have one thing that made them especially nasty -- their wish to see democracy in Germany ended. I don't see this wish among the Trump people.
I suppose the Clinton people can be said to have no respect for democracy, given the 2016 primaries, but none of them had the wherewithal to tamper with the 2016 general election or to declare their wish that America be a dictatorship. And certainly W.'s people had no respect for democracy, given the 2000 and 2004 general elections, but that didn't help Jeb much in the 2016 primaries.
And I don't see anyone of Hitler's stature in America today.
“Those who make Bernie Sanders impossible will make Luigi Mangione inevitable." - Dan Berger
their wish to see democracy ended
I do.
Jefferson Beauregard Sessions is opposing democracy on the subject of cannabis as I type this. Betsy DeVos is working to destroy our working public school system -- the base and backbone of any working democracy -- as I type this. And the Chump Himself just Tweeted that so-called "illegals" ought to be deported with no process of law at all. Due process is an indispensable component of both rule of law and democracy.
Yeah, I see the wish to see democracy destroyed among the Trump people. Easy peasy.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
I await the time --
when they call for an annulment of the First Amendment so they can kick all the Muslims out of the country. Or for the abolition of Congress, so that the President can rule by decree.
Nobody's denying they're a bunch of assholes.
“Those who make Bernie Sanders impossible will make Luigi Mangione inevitable." - Dan Berger
SCOTUS is getting close to this.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
@Wink Since there are
Since there are Nazis in the Clintons' circle too, and, I suppose arguably Obama's, since this happened under his administration:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-ernesto/the-irony-of-clintons-com_b...
I'm not really sure what the point is of saying that Trump has neo-Nazis in his circle.
Recently, discussion of Nazis and neo-Nazis in America has become, simply, one of many brickbats thrown in the American partisan struggle (such as it is). The words "Nazi" and "neo-Nazi" are used to up the ante when people won't comply with mainstream political thinking. It goes something like this:
Partisan: "You must fight Trump!"
Non-partisan (for whatever reason from informed dissent to extreme apathy): "Trump is a symptom of a political Augean stable so deep in shit I can't even believe it. Fighting Trump while living in the American political system is like fighting a fire in your backyard while the sun is exploding."
Partisan: "But Trump is a NAZI! If you don't fight Trump you're refusing to fight NAZIS! Never again! The silence of our friends! When they came for the trade unionists I didn't do anything because I wasn't a trade unionist! You have to Make Your Voice Heard or you'll be responsible for Black people being slaughtered!"
See how it works?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Doesn't diminish the
fact that Nazis are
among us. And I'm talkin' the WWII variety, not the snot nosed alt Right skinhead variety.
The real deal. By way of Argentina, Paraguay. Or more accurately their descendants, grandkids. Bannon, Miller... pretty much dRump's inner circle.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
I can't live with Trump
Me: "All right, both of you! Now you (looking at "Non-Partisan"): Are you telling me I've got no choice but to live with the Chump and his band of free-range boneheads? And speaking of boneheads (looking Partisan dead in the eye, which makes hir squirm): just how do you suggest I "Make My Voice Heard" in a manner that it sticks? Voting -- especially voting for the kind of "Democrats" Klan Klinton serves up for us -- doesn't do it. Neither do protesting and bothering political officials! Are you seriously suggesting I resort to violent means? For if you are, you're no better than Trump himself and his gang!"
(At which point I hope the local crickets know some Grateful Dead music, as I'm sure it's them I'll be listening to!)
[video:https://youtu.be/3I7CLy70WtI]
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
@thanatokephaloides I don't know.
I don't know. I assume we either have to live with Trump and his circle or get rid of them. If someone knows of a third option, I want to hear it.
If we choose to get rid of him, we have the following choices:
voting, lobbying Congress, and petitions seem to be one category of action
protests of various levels of intensity up to and including civil disobedience appear to be a second category of action
boycotts and strikes a third
violent resistance/rebellion a fourth
I haven't included seizing parts of society's infrastructure because that quickly becomes the same thing as an armed struggle, unless you're talking about
stealing their data through digital wizardry, a fifth
In general, I'd say that category one has been exhausted as a viable means of change; at least we've tried it over and over again with no success. If we intend to make a success of it, there would have to be something new suggested, some new tactic that would make voting effective. It would have to wrest the control of election machinery out of the hands of the powerful, who at this point include the Department of Homeland Security. It would have to do that at least temporarily, to give people a window to make an impact. You'd also have trouble with the media, because they are the ones who report the election results, and they can basically declare the election over with what results they like. We saw this in California with Bernie.
Category two, sadly, results in military suppression as at Occupy and Standing Rock.
It's difficult to boycott things these days because we are so rife with mergers; business has concentrated into so few hands that it's difficult to avoid particular bad actors, but despite that, I think we're at the point of trying category 3. Category five can be used at any time, but only by people who have the advanced skills necessary.
I don't have the advanced skills necessary for chaotic good internet banditry. So I suppose if I wanted to do something I should be organizing strikes.
If there are actions I've missed out, please tell me.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
The real gulf between me and people who shake their fist at
Trump, who does deserve to have a fist shaken at him except for the fact that he probably enjoys it, is this:
I have no emotions whatsoever about Trump as a distinct figure from the rest of the political system. People who are upset about Trump seem to be responding to him as an individual evil that is implicitly different from the rest of the political system: more radical, more extreme. What I see is that whatever differences Trump may have had from the rest of the political system, for good or ill, have now been digested, as Assange said many moons ago. The idea that he has some form of extremism that isn't present in the majority of our politicians, and that if we could only get rid of him we'd return to some better status quo, has no evidence to back it up, not in a world where the mainstream does this. Start at 4:23 in.
"The United States will treat cyberattacks just like any other attack. We will be ready with serious political, economic, and military responses. Russia's hacked into a lot of things, China's hacked into a lot of things...One of the first things I will do as President is to call for a new nuclear posture review. We have to make sure that America's arsenal is prepared to meet future threats."
Jimmy Dore: "Yeah, we really gotta make sure that we're ready for a nuclear war."
I know that you don't like Clinton, and neither do most people on here, but it's not possible to decry Clinton and still believe in a more-reasonable-than-Trump political establishment. Clinton is the face of the mainstream American political establishment. She has not only all Democrats, but most Republicans, at least all the Bush Republicans, from Cheney to Powell, on her side. Even Paul Ryan has a history of working with the Clintons. There is no mainstream political option that hasn't been absorbed into the Clinton/Bush alliance, and that alliance is just as extreme as Trump. They just aren't as noisy about it.
If you want a non-mainstream electoral alternative, you will have to do something pretty creative in a world where Jill Stein gets led away in handcuffs for trying to participate in a presidential debate.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Trump in a girl suit.
I have always said that Hillary Clinton was nothing else but Donald Trump in a girl suit.
And you're right on one other point: unless the people of this country break themselves out of the Taft-Hartley Act box and learn to general strike again, we really are fucked.....
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
@Cassiodorus I guess if you
I guess if you dabble in political three dimensional chess you never know what the prize will be.
Especially if you don't believe in democracy --
and have been trying to get rid of it for some time.
“Those who make Bernie Sanders impossible will make Luigi Mangione inevitable." - Dan Berger
The Democrats don't believe in democracy,
and have been trying their best, and have been doing a damned good job of getting rid of it.
As Black Agenda Report has noted, the Democratic Party is a "people suppression" mechanism.
But apparently, few notice this, as they get their attention diverted to Trump and his evils, both real and imagined (and, of course, Bernie Sanders assists in this process.)
But I tell you, boys and girls, . . . . one day, we progressives will succeed in taking over the Democratic Party and reforming it, and on that day, a beautiful golden light will break out across the land, as politicians like Bernie Sanders lead us to the promised land . . . . .
(I think I'll start calling Sanders "Bernie Christ," since "Christ" is Greek for "Messiah."
As in "Bernie Christ will save us.")
So OK
The Democrats don't believe in their own internal democracy. (Not believing in democracy per se would mean that they're okay with a Trump dictatorship unto death, which hasn't happened yet.) This isn't news.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_primary#History
“Those who make Bernie Sanders impossible will make Luigi Mangione inevitable." - Dan Berger
Not necessarily
One is able not to believe in democracy and still believe in things like aristocratic republicanism, oligarchy, croneyism, plutocracy, elitism, and corporatism.
It is clear that the Democrats DO believe in such things, while eschewing outright absolutist dictatorship and monarchy. In that, they are right in line with the framers of the constitution, who, as Gore Vidal once observed, disliked democracy (because it set up a tyranny of the supposedly unenlightened "mob") and also disliked absolutist tyranny centered in one person (because it set up a different kind of tyranny, one in which an individual ruler had absolute power.)
Thus, the framers set up a "moderate aristocracy," clothed in such ideas as "republicanism," "ordered liberty," laws having primacy over the whims of men, and power distributed among three supposedly different branches of government, and sold to the public as "representative" due to having regularly scheduled elections. But make no mistake, their "republic" was an aristocracy, and they admitted as much in their writings.
One thing the Democrats don't believe in is "democracy," meaning "rule by the body of the common citizenry" ("the demos" in ancient Greek), otherwise known as "the people."
The Democrats, like the framers of the constitution, do not believe in "rule by the people," and will do their damnedest to make sure it never breaks out in any meaningful sense.
Here in NC
the county where I live has income levels slightly above the statewide median and poverty levels slightly below the statewide median. So we are doing slightly better than the rest of the state. And yet nearly 1/4 of the population in our county relies on the local food banks. Most of those families have at least one family member who is working. Food banks fill the gap left by cut backs in SNAP or other programs for which many cannot qualify. In addition the local food bank provides paper products, cleaning supplies and importantly, school supplies not covered by other programs. The United States is becoming a third world country populated by the working poor.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
yep. before our very
eyes.
And as they increase Medicare costs I soon will be joining the bread line.
Unthinkable just a few years ago.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
nice essay
Bernie helped promote awareness. He is the major voice for us in the senate. He might have a shot at the presidency if he would join with the peoples party...or some other entity...and lead a new party. The democrats are not an answer as we've hashed and rehashed to death.
Chris and Ralph discuss the Myth of Democracy in America (25 min)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9OJZOMEjOU
Perhaps Marilyn's suggestion to focus on self reliance and food production is a good strategy? Do you have any hope about the poor peoples campaign?
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
I don't know what else we can really do . . . .
IMO we get and vote for whoever looks good. But taking care of our friends, neighbors, and family, and . . .
Well, prayer turns out to be a sort of creepy word. But if we see it as intention . . . willing goodness for all . . . for our family, our friends, and the world. That seems to be a good use of time. During the day we wish blessings (in a general sense) to family friends, neighbors, and the peoples of the world.
I turned them into songs and their melodies stay with me all day long.
Sounds hokey . . . but what else are we going to do?
I wish blessings on you all tonight.
This is not religious.
Marilyn
"Make dirt, not war." eyo
it is funny about helping our neighbors...
When there is a crisis...tornadoes, hurricane, earthquake, blizzard, etc. we do a great job. However under normal conditions we don't hardly know who our neighbors are.
Aldo Leopold had a interesting notion about ethics...
According to Leopold the first ethics dealt with relationships between individuals. In a second phase this was extended to the relation between the individual and society. What we now need, in a third move, is an extension to the relation to land and what grows upon it. In spite of some individuals advocating such a view (that it is wrong not to respect the land), the land is still seen as property and the land relation strictly economic. Leopold sees the conservation movement of his time as the start of a societal confirmation of this third extension of ethics. It is interesting to notice how he sees an ethic as a kind of community instinct in-the-making, as a mode of guidance.
― Aldo Leopold
https://www.aldoleopold.org/post/understanding-land-ethic/
He's one of my mentors though we lived in different times.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Not just the land, but also the animals
snd bugs and snakes and birds...
We have to quit killing everything we touch.
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks
Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa
Many of our wedding readings came from
Sand County Almanac by Aldo Leopold. Great stuff there.
Especially like the metaphor of the geese who take off for the North not knowing what will be the conditions when they arrive. They just jump and go. Much like our marriage in the third stage of our lives.
Thank you.
You may choose to look the other way, but you can never say again you did not know. ~ William Wiberforce
If you can donate, please! POP Money is available for bank-to-bank transfers. Email JtC to make a monthly donation.
hello fellow Aldo fan
I found him in my youth of 20 years or so, and he has inspired me ever since...
“There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot. These essays are the delights and dilemmas of one who cannot.” — Aldo Leopold
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
peace and blessings upon you too, Marilyn
It is kind-hearted benevolence, loving-kindness, pure and simple. The real "one true religion".
-- Grateful Dead, "Uncle John's Band" source
source publishing with express permission of copyright owner
And may that benevolence ever be returned upon you and yours, Marilyn!
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
food production
For the 10% of us who are fortunate enough to have real access to the land, sure.
For the 90% of us who have never had it, and have had no real alternative options to life in a building-internal apartment, not so much.
I mean Marilyn no ill in any way. Having the access, she's making it serve until it screams. And she's damn good at it. But for just one example, to have similar access to the land, I'd need to have made at least $70,000 a year after taxes, every year without interruption, since I graduated from high school in 1976. (In today's money.) Nobody my age or younger (I'm 59) has/had access to that kind of reliable livelihood. And you can't "gig" your way into this kind of holding. You need a constant, stable, and adequate money stream to do it. Biennial layoffs interspersed with unemployment insurance and gigging just won't cut it, especially when one has no partner.
Acreage, especially the arable acreage a resilience project like Marilyn's requires, doesn't come cheap. Most of southeastern Colorado, as well as half of Utah and nearly all of New Mexico and Arizona, need not apply (desert). No surface water and no native trees tells the tale here.
Bottom line: if the bottom really does fall out, I am dead, along with everyone like me (currently seriously disabled after a lifetime of working poor).
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
One way of getting around that --
take over city councils, have the cities buy land, plant community gardens on the land.
Since your average city already produces large quantities of compost, it's also a matter of organizing the compost ingredients so that they can be properly managed to produce food. The best time to start is in the autumn -- send groups of young people out to harvest the property owners' deciduous leaves.
“Those who make Bernie Sanders impossible will make Luigi Mangione inevitable." - Dan Berger
You're right
It's different if you have land . . . even crappy land. Our place was $900/acre and we put a mobile home on it. Much less than a house in the city at the time.
There are urban farms, etc. - but I don't know how quickly they can rise to meet the need.
Marilyn
"Make dirt, not war." eyo
$900 an acre?
No income I've ever had would ever support either one. (It's a major part of why I have no children.)
And the cheapest I've ever seen an acre of land go for was about $2500 for an acre of outright desert with no water rights.
Some of this may be due to my ineptitude at the real estate game, I suppose.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Bernie has two roles. One he succeeded, other he failed..
Bernie did for progressives and many others have called this era's New Deal. He was for the understanding of progressive policies what OWS did for understanding class war.
I remember single payer advocates being marginalized and pushed aside on democratic party sites for years. And now, some variant of it is accepted by very large numbers of people (not necessarily in the democratic party). Bernie gave people a clear vision of progressive policies and what they should be. The proverbial barn door can never be closed on them again.
Bernie the political reformer has lost and will lose again. The same democratic party organization from city, state, and national that cheated him, will be there in 2020. So will be the donor money, and this time focused even more on destroying Bernie or any progressive movement within the party. Add to this is the fact that the TOP/Hillary/Obama wing of the party is simply not progressive. Calling them liberal would be generous.
But yes, 2020 could see a definite Dem-exit. Not sure if this means a third party can emerge as dems will do everything possible to destroy it as they did to Nader in 2004.
The most positive aspect is again, the articulation of a New Deal if the progressives can take over.
The big reason The New Deal went through
was that the US had the Soviets on their asses. Since they were sold back to the Oligarchs by Yeltsin, though, the bourgeoisie see no reason to concede anything.
Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.
Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.
There was that definitely in the sense...
here was that definitely in the sense that if reform did not happen, there was a mass movement ready to over thrown capitalism from the Left.
People over at ToP did want single payer at first
I remember reading NYCeve's diaries during the time that they were working on the ACA. But she did start getting flack after it was clear that it wouldn't pass.
"What part of they don't have the votes don't you get?" Remember that? Then the ACA was passed with just 51 votes because they used reconciliation which only needed that many to pass. Oops. No excuse for the democrats to not have passed whatever they wanted to. But they spent a year letting the republicans water it down because they wanted their votes. The democrats knew damn well that no republican was going to vote for it.
The ACA is hugely flawed, but the kos kids will defend it for eternity because their buddy Barry passed it. And you are right that they would attack Bernie if he decides to run again. Funny how Bernie ran on a lot of the same things that Obama's first campaign did, but after his tenure they all moved to the center with him.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt
Arguing themselves into capitulation and weakness
Really started to see this during Bush the Younger's regime. Bush and the gop were political juggernauts and the democratic party just had to compromise. And then with Obama the same. You would think given the excuse making on TOP that the presidency was the weakness institution among the three branches. And now with Trump. Trump is the super duper all power fascist, and all democrats can do is throw spitballs drenched in borsch at him. In many ways saw this thinking for supporting Hillary over Bernie. Oh, Bernie would never survive theinvincible gop propaganda monster in the general.
"Whaa! The democrats can't get their message out because
the media refuses to cover them." I'm seeing that over there too. Well that is why gawd made Twitter wasn't it? If the media won't cover them there are many ways that they can get their messages out to the public.
Funny as hell yesterday. I saw an old time member asking what the democrat's message should be? People don't want to hear any message from them, they want them to tell them what their policies are going to be. How do they plan on winning back congress and if they do what will they do to help Americans? It doesn't cost them anything at all to lie to people, but at least try it!
Oh yeah, and some of the messages were downright hoots!
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt
That's the puzzle
I am astonished at how much power the GOP wields when in the minority, and how powerless the dems are when in charge. Almost as if by design.
yep. n/t
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
Many people think that Bernie should have jumped ship to the
Greens.
I heard Stein on WBEZ begging him to come and take the nomination.
What if he had? He would have been Nadered for sure.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
True. And Hillary likely
wins the three-way race
if Bernie would have gotten at least 20% of the vote on the Green line. Which was likely.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
"He would have been Nadered too." So what?
Are you going to go through your life letting your political enemies define you or worrying about the mean things they might say about you?
I mean, really: What thinking, psychologically healthy human being gives a shit about such considerations?
@The Voice In the Wilderness I'm not sure it matters
I'm not sure it matters how the powerful take you down.
Rather than "being Nadered," whatever that means, he drove his electoral car into the wall of fraud and voter suppression. He's now backing it up and aiming at that same wall again.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
3rd party
I've been following Bernie and voting for him for a long time. I doubt he has any interest in preserving the existing system. I think the 2018 midterms are very important for Bernie. I wouldn't be surprised if he chose that time to announce a third party bid.
Vermonter
Not gonna happen as
far as I can see.
There's been no hint, and I'd be shocked if he announced that. Shocked!
But as I've said here often, if he runs as an Indie - not Green - he has a great chance of winning
(if those that show up at his rallies actually vote)! And the only way I contribute a dime to his campaign. But, hey, maybe you see something that I'm not seeing. Hope so!
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
No hint?
I suppose there's this:
https://twitter.com/HootHootBerns/status/1002869328969117697
“Those who make Bernie Sanders impossible will make Luigi Mangione inevitable." - Dan Berger
Missed opportunities...
I think his ship sailed while he was busy endorsing Hillary and the Democrats, but hey, nothing ventured nothing gained.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
The other thing Bernie accomplished
was showing that you could run a Presidential campaign, which is the most expensive kind, without taking big money donations. That more than anything else has the chance to discredit corporate Dems.
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone
No. Not Sanders.
From Hedges article (and where my line is drawn)...
He still had his hand out for money though. He owed it to his donors to speak up.
He wasn’t only cheated, his supporters were disenfranchised. And he has never once commented on the fact that the Dims say they have the absolute right to do exactly that. I have no intention of supporting a guy who supports the DNC.
We have 2 years to see who throws their hat in the ring. Two long years. Demanding “who you gonna vote for then” is ridiculous at this point. Hopefully someone who’s REALLY ‘in it to win it’ and means it will show by then.
EDIT: deleted an ‘I’
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks
Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa
Don't have an answer to Hedges.
sorry to say it.
the entire article is worth reading, imo.
thx.
Edit. "We needed a hero,but we got Bernie." - ik
@irishking So what is Hedges
So what is Hedges suggestion for a progressive leader and presidential candidate...Stein ? Oh please. She is not serious...and talk about leading your followers astray.
Why are you even asking this question?
Why is it Hedges' responsibility to name a candidate for you, especially when, if you've ever read Hedges, he believes at this point that NO MEANINGFUL CHANGE CAN OR WILL COME THROUGH THE BALLOT BOX because the whole electoral system is so hopelessly rigged, corrupted, and compromised.
He's said as much on numerous occasions.
Hedges has made it clear that the only thing that will change political realities in this country at this point in a meaningful way is REVOLT in the form of large scale civil disobedience.
In view of his often stated and well articulated positions, your asking for him to give you a "satisfactory" candidate that will usher in the new and positive political order, is ludicrous.
@SoylentGreenisPeople It's his
It's his responsibility because he is whining about the only one that actually preaches a civil disobedience revolution. So I'm not gonna worry about Hedges purity trolling when the guy has his own little library of books to sell to make a living and does jack else ? No thanks.
Your response is nonsensical.
Ayup! Everything you said
He did nothing and told people nothing about what happened to him.
This was a horrible way to repay people who gave so much to him. Lots of them gave money that they couldn't really afford to give because they believed that he could win. He certainly did win a lot of primaries that only went to Her because of the superdelegates! Of course the media was complicit in covering up a lot of the dirty tricks because they stopped reporting on the exit polls.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt
Plus, as we’ve discussed before, he’s
also riding the Crazytown Trolley screeching “THE RUSSIANS! DID IT” as loud as the rest of them. I seriously wonder about what’s up with that.
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks
Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa
"This was a horrible way to repay people who gave so much . . .
. . . to him."
Yep. Or, in other words, it was a BETRAYAL of those people's hopes, dreams, efforts, resources, support, etc. In other words, BERNIE BETRAYED THEM! (Some progressive political "leader," huh?--one that even today people still want to invest their hopes in.)
But, when I pointed out that this was a BETRAYAL by Bernie on these threads several weeks ago, I was told by posters here--including many now posting in this present discussion--that in fact, what Bernie did was NOT a betrayal.
I don't get why
you are so convinced that a 3rd party is developable, if and only if, certain events occur in 2020.
People were ready in 2016 for a third party. Bernie would have easily appealed to the Trump voters. (laugh all you want - he would have easily appealed to workers across the political spectrum)
A third party has been viable for years. The voters are there; the money is there. Someone with some guts needs to pick up the torch.
dfarrah
I phone banked for Bernie in red states
More than one person said they liked him but were reps and voting trump.
We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg
Yes, but we really
don't know how it would have turned out if Bernie had gone head to head with Trump, or if Bernie had run-third party.
A huge opportunity just washed down the drain....
dfarrah
What likely would have happened, if Bernie had
gone third party, is that the usual suspects would have vilified him for doing so. Hillary would have gotten even fewer popular votes than what she did get. And maybe at least 15% to 20% of the electorate would have gone to a Bernie/Green ticket (perhaps even more.) (Of course, the Dems in the Senate and the political establishment, would have acted to exact a heavy political toll upon Sanders in retribution.)
However, with that 15 to 20% going toward a Bernie/Green ticket, it would have hastened the decline of the Democratic Party and made it clear to the establishment of that party that if they ever hoped to maintain any kind of legitimacy with progressives in the future, they would have to start dealing with them as a serious power block that they could no longer ignore or try to shut out.
Thus, the Democratic Party would have become even more irrelevant in the public's eyes, and in much quicker, time than what it already is.
It would have hastened the end of the Democratic Party as we know it today. It also would have opened up the possibility of the Green Party becoming a political force in near future elections.
In short, it would have been a GLORIOUS result.
Too bad Bernie was too compromised to take any such drastic, yet courageous and principled stand. Too bad Bernie was unwilling to sacrifice his political career for his ostensible political beliefs.
Eugene V. Debbs, Bernie certainly isn't and never will be.
@SoylentGreenisPeople The Green Party is
The Green Party is an organizational DISASTER. They couldn't get college kids to an event with free beer.
The Green Party once again ran Jill-Part-Time Stein. A candidate that in the Fall of 2016 had what a dozen campaign events ? So Bernie not hitching his wagon to this group of ineptness was a lost opportunity ? Yeah, for the Green Party maybe.
But sticking with the Democrats
of course, was the wise course of action . . . what with all the "eptness" they've displayed over the past two decades in terms of winning elections (seems to be your only real criteria), or doing anything of any real substance for the people.
Did I grasp your deep wisdom and meditations on this subject correctly?
@SoylentGreenisPeople Wow so much
Wow so much hostility.
So in addition to making democratic socialism a front page issue, Bernie was supposed to create a functioning 3rd party in a two party system ? Or was he supposed to try and burn the Democratic party to the ground and support Stein after he got shit on ? How noble, of course that would make him persona non grata back in the Senate but I guess he could always caucus with Republicans.
Bernie has not done enough to speak out against the MIC, Bernie is not anti-gun enough, Bernie shouldn't be so ingratiating towards thankless Dems, Bernie should have a clear and cogent foreign policy etc etc. There is lots of room for criticism but suggesting is some sort of traitor to the cause or whatever you are trying to say is just purity trolling - but I repeat myself.
I don't know what hostility you're talking about.
The fact is, you are all over the place.
You made a point about the Greens and their lack of organizational effectiveness and how that would have rendered an association with them by Sanders a foolish move.
I thought I rebutted and defeated that specific point quite succinctly and effectively in my response to you, and yet you come back with a complaint about "so much hostility" after I defeated that point you made?
Also, as if that isn't enough, you start bringing up other sorts of points and arguments, each of which, while not irrelevant, is worthy of its own thread. (As for this particular one--"Or was he supposed to try and burn the Democratic party to the ground . . . . ?"--my response would be "At this point of where we are in our political situation, and after the way the DNC cheated/s and handles/d Sanders and his supporters and progressives in general, YES, 'burning the Democratic party to the ground' would be a very good place to start as NOTHING LESS than this will bring about or accomplish the changes in which Sanders claims to believe and for which he claimed to fight.")
If you choose to continue this discussion with me, then first read this before doing so:
https://russia-insider.com/en/politics/12-ways-bernie-sanders-pro-establ...
It would be interesting to see if you think the points raised in that piece also comprise mere "purity trolling."
@SoylentGreenisPeople The
The hostility is quite evident in your sarcastic ad hominem:
As for your claim that you dispatched my argument by referring to ineptness of the Democrats is incomplete. There are inherent advantages to being in one of the two parties. One of the most compelling for Sanders was the ability to immediately share the stage to compete for one of the two major (D or R) nominees slots. This requires far less time and resources to gain considerable traction by primary-ing, rather than building a party from scratch. So in other words, rather than struggling like the Greens to gain ballot access in 48 of 50 states at the 11th hour, you can focus on campaigning and messaging.
The article you linked is a very thorough list of Bernie's bad decisions, some of which I already mentioned. The article doesn't reference what resolutions Bernie voted for and in what context they were presented. That said:
#4 is laughable...his alternative is to vote with GOP or abstain.
#5 Is unsupported conspiratorial nonsense. Bernie did NOT herd anyone anywhere:
#11 While he may have voted for that bill in 1994, he is obviously NOT pro death penalty.
#12 Um no, he did not instruct anyone to vote for HRC because she was the Wall Street candidate. She was one of two Wall Street candidates and was the lesser of two evils in his mind.
You're right. My words conveyed hostility.
In most other respects I still disagree with you. Bernie should have burned the house down by running third party--Green, or something else.
Anything less was a betrayal of his stated principles.
@SoylentGreenisPeople Fair
Fair enough. Take good care.
Bernie is the question
not the answer.
(Edited)
Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.
Totally Agree. Bernie is
still relevant if for no other reason than being America's Most Popular Politician. And, yeah, there's a lot to be desired, maybe, but in the absence of anything remotely resembling "Resistance" or alternative to the status quo, Bernie is what we got. And, if nothing else continues to be the one that exposes the b.s. he exposed in 2016. Is likely all we can expect from 2020.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
Clearly, the system does not want to be reformed.
They have been war gaming and planning for this uprising you are suggest may be our salvation for decades. They understand what we so rarely even think about:
There are far too many people already on the planet, consuming diminishing resources.
The planet is warming, placing additional strain on agricultural production.
Hungry people will resort to violence.
Violence will be met by greater violence.
Many will die.
These "exceptional" and "important" few will survive. That is the plan. There is no other plan.
“ …and when we destroy nature, we diminish our capacity to sense the divine,and understand who God is, and what our own potential is and duties are as human beings.- RFK jr. 8/26/2024
Think
The Kingsmen.
dfarrah
This part is what I definitely agree with
What Bernie's campaign did, whether on purpose or accidentally, was to show large numbers of Americans just how corrupt our system of elections is. For our entire lives, we have been indoctrinated into believing that voting and elections matter. Now we have all seen that it is all a farce.
Real change comes from outside organized politics and government. It comes via social movements. And it is a process that is both painful and dangerous. Desperate people are dangerous people to the powers that be. And there are no people more desperate than those who are hungry. With climate change, the future looks very grim for many things, not the least of which is food production.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
After watching this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqxq03izxrQ
I no longer think there is anything we can do to change things without revolution. Voting will do nothing because tptb will only allow one of their own to win.
It's revolution or just go shopping.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
that film made me more aware of the shadow government
...and all it's power.
Electoral politics seems to be kabuki theater to make us think we have some control through the ballot box. To begin to create a better country we need to complete JFK's mission to break the CIA into a 1000 pieces. (Of course now we have NSA, DHS, and many other manipulating agencies to dismantle too.)
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Bernie's ship HAS sailed
He's betrayed and alienated too many people by his capitulations and compromises since 2016, that have revealed him to be no more than just another lying, self-serving politician.
He won't be getting jack shit from me in 2020 . . . and I gave him over $1K in 2016.
I doubt I'll even take the time to pull the lever for him.
So, you Bernie supporters, continue to "stand by your man" and invest him with all your political hopes and dreams as much as you like.
But you'll be doing it without my support . . . . and without the support of thousands of others like me.
As a famous person once said: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
Bernie made a calculation.
Bernie is a socialist. In his heart of hearts he would like America to be a socialist country. He, however, made a calculation that in America, Socialism is not happening in the near future. So to improve the lives of the American people he promotes a New Deal agenda that he hopes will pave the way for socialism long term. Whether he can achieve this by running in the Democratic Party is an open question but he has changed the political calculus which is more than what we achieve in our self satisfying cynical smugness on this blog.
Running for the House as a Dem in New York state’s 19th district
The Battle of Woodstock: Part One
The Battle of Woodstock: Part Two
The Battle of Woodstock: Part Three
A party apparatus and management caste focused on fund-raising above all else.
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