Here's what c99 means to me & why I want it to continue
I thought long and hard about this site after JtC's essay yesterday. It was sad to hear that people have left the site and some have withdrawn donations. What is there for me to say? Well, a lot really.
To begin, I intend to focus on what I know about c99. And what I know is that this community has great value to me, and, I believe, to many other people.
Now, I've written a fair amount of essays here. Not as many this year as last, but still more than enough to have learned a little about c99 folk, or at the least, those of you who choose to respond to the essays I've posted. And here's what I like about this community.
1) Your compassion.
I don't have to dig very hard to find evidence of this trait among you. Consider my essay from November 30th. It's the one in which I described in detail my experience being raped. Now, you don't need to read the essay, but take a look at the comment thread. I wasn't sure how people would react when I posted it. To be honest, I was worried that I might be making a big mistake. But read the comments. I was wrong to worry. What was the response I got from this community? Validation for my suffering, acceptance, empathy and caring from everyone who commented.
And that hasn't been the first time this has happened to me here, either. I've posted about the struggles of my wife, recovering from cancer and brain damage. I've written about my sexual orientation (I'm bi, by the way), my own disability, etc. Each time the community has come forward to tell me that they value me, and my personal stories, stories I often wrote, in complete honesty, as a form a therapy for myself. But your acceptance and more than that, the manner in which you responded to my posts felt like the bestowal of grace. A grace not given by some unseen deity in the sky, but by the people here living on earth, people who did not judge me for my deviations from the "norm," differences that are a big part of who I am as a human being. I can't tell you how much your acceptance and good wishes and good will have meant to me. It's beyond my ability to repay.
And, I'm willing to bet that others here have experienced similar reactions at c99 when they have discussed difficulties or problems in their lives. I can recall several off the top of my head, though I'm not going to name them - well, except for JtC. Remember when he wasn't sure he could continue to operate this site due to insufficient financial resources? Remember how so many of us rallied to create a donation drive to save this site? I do. But my essential point is the same. C99 is a place where good people help one another. We may not always agree about everything, but one consistent trait I've seen among longtime members is this compassion for those in need, for those in pain, not only in our community, but around the world.
2) The diversity of opinion expressed and encouraged here.
I was angry when I, and many like me, were effectively kicked out of Daily Kos in March 2016 for literally not toeing the Party line. For being censored and attacked and verbally abused by well organized gangs. But that was a blessing in disguise, for I found this place (through a link posted at DKos), and it has been a life saver. For years I wrote and posted my stuff at the Orange Satan, but always with the knowledge that often I self-censored myself, and with a feeling from many there that caused an underlying tension, a tension that resulted directly from the antagonism shown toward those who did not promote the approved line, whatever the approved line of the day might be.
Well, c99 does not censor what I write, nor does it make me feel the need to censor myself. And in addition to that liberating experience, it also led me to read and interact with a group of intelligent people of varying political and cultural views, knowledge and life experience. I can't tell you how many times I have learned something new because of an essay posted here, but more often than not from an insightful and detailed comment that was often better than many of the essays I wrote myself on the subject. That interaction has led me to do further research on a variety of subjects, from economics, philosophy, science, history and political movements. I learned information that I previously didn't know existed, expanding the horizons of what I thought I knew.
That's what the people here at c99 did for me, and its a great treasure. Because around the web there simply aren't many forums that will permit discussion without censorship of some kind, explicit or implied. This is a safe harbor in a sea of vitriol and "weaponized" thought control. I felt like I could breath for the first time in many years when I became a member.
3) The general willingness to debate issues in good faith.
All right, I confess. I had to qualify this one. In general, though, I believe it holds up. Most arguments and disputes here in the comments are handled between the people involved in a respectful manner. Obviously, that is not always the case, as the recent disputes and fights over what for shorthand purposes only I will call the #MeToo issue. But I believe that if we look back over the history of the site, these types of disputes have occurred less often and have been less nasty and strident and divisive than I've found elsewhere. To a certain extent, I think most c99 members grew accustomed to a level of civility and respect not seen outside the friendly confines of this site.
That is what makes the recent rancor among some (not all) c99er's o so disconcerting and hurtful. Perhaps it was unavoidable. The issue of sexism and sexual harassment faced primarily by women, though it pervades society at a systemic level, is also very personal and yes, people, very traumatic for the victims. After I wrote my rape story, I received several personal messages (and some people posted public comments, as well) about the pain they continue to carry with them as a result of a sexual assault. Frankly, I did not expect that, though, I should have. I certainly know how these stories in the media have triggered me.
It should come as no surprise that many other victims were triggered as well. And, in my opinion, we need to listen to the stories the women here at c99 are telling us about themselves, about how this abuse and the miasma of silence that surrounded that abuse, affected their lives. We have come to accept that veterans of war suffer from PTSD, even those who did not personally go into combat. So I do not understand the reluctance by some to simply listen to the women who have been effected, regardless of the "spectrum" (as Matt Damon so artlessly and inaccurately described it) of the misconduct perpetrated upon them.
So what about #MeToo at c99 (i.e., where do we go from here)?
I have no issue with considering why, at this particular moment in history, traditional, corporate media is obsessing about these high profile scandals. What was long hidden from public view is now constantly in the news. However, the two subjects, (a) the media obsession with sexual misconduct scandals among the elites, and (b) the use of sex to oppress and harm women are separate and distinct concerns.
When the latter topic is promoted over the underlying issue of abuse, it does feel like a dismissal of the pain victims suffered. I say that because that is how I felt about it when the Mat Lauer story was subverted by supporters of Hillary Clinton to explain away, once again, why she lost to Trump. But regardless of what I or you or anyone else believes is important about #MeToo, we have to address it the way we traditionally have addressed any other issue that is up for discussion at c99, with the willingness to listen to others, to take in what they say, and to not let anger or fear or other emotions cause us to lash out or misunderstand or resort to ad hominem attacks.
I believe I understand why gjohnsit wrote his essay about androphobia that unfortunately became the focal point of so much of the recent controversy here. I'm a man, at least according to what my genitals tell me, even though I do not identify with what many in American society consider masculine traits and roles. I sometimes experience the same vibe he expressed in his essay, a general sense that I am not trusted because of my appearance and gender. It's an unfortunate situation, because I believe that the majority of men do not engage in sexual misconduct and should not be blamed for the sins of a minority.
But I also know the stress of trauma caused by sexual abuse, at whatever level, and how that impacted my life. I can only guess at how the trauma of sexual abuse, in what ever manner it was experienced by the women here at c99, has impacted and continues to impact their lives. But isn’t that the purpose of empathy? To find something in our own experience to help us understand as best we can harms to which we have not been exposed, and then express solidarity with the people who suffered that harm? Can't we learn from our fellow female c99 members enough to be able to express empathy for them and to discuss solutions to what is a long term societal problem that in the end has negative consequences for everyone? I think we can.
But that's just my opinion. I'm not a fountain of wisdom, or a magician who can wave a wand and get us all to get along. But, I know that most c99ers are, as I noted above, good people who have acted many times in the past to help others, even others with whom we disagree. And to me, that is why I want c99 to continue. And not just to continue, but to grow. JtC is a wonder, and we are privileged to have him, as well as all the other original founders of this little corner of cyber space. But he cannot rectify or prevent all problems that arise in this community, including the one that has led to so much divisiveness over the past month. In the end that responsibility falls on all of us.
I for one am willing to make that attempt because I do place great value on c99 not just as a progressive website where I can post my meandering thoughts, but even more so as a community of people I've come to appreciate, many of whom I'm proud to call friend. I hope you feel the same way.
Steve
Comments
What C99 Means to me:
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4QBhC1uCP4]
It's my safe haven, and no matter how angry I might get, I can always find a perspective which will always make me at least think.
However, like PTSD, I find it is often better with Pot.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Amen and lol n/t
@detroitmechworks Most things are.
Most things are.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Beer or cider
ain't too shabby either!
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
No Censorship
No one has to respond or even read the entirety of a comment that is not respectful. We choose to engage and we choose the way in which we engage. The commenter's words are his or her own, and to the extent the commenter responds in a nasty or disrespectful way the words are reflective of the commenter, not the site. You own what you write and what you reap as a result.
I don't want a "safe space;" I want a forum in which I will be exposed to all sorts of "dangerous" information and ideas that I may not have thought about before and which may even provoke an emotional reaction from me -- which I will also think about and evaluate.
Once any sort of censorship creeps into a forum, it grows into a cancer that chokes out the free exchange of ideas and leaves you with the fetid carcass of approved groupthink. I visit this site less than I used to because of the creeping censorship I perceive, sometimes as subtle as removing an essay from the front page even though it is more recent than other essays that are still on it.
My two cents.
Huzzah! "Safe spaces" are useless in political discussion.
Read what you want; bypass what you don't. Be civil. If you disagree, give reasons. If you agree, giving additional reasons is also helpful.
OMG. Beautiful.
I too hope we can continue to reach out to each other. As always, Steven you have articulated it perfectly.
Marilyn
"Make dirt, not war." eyo
I'm staying away from #metoo
I've done enough unintentional damage in that regard.
I think the open class war being waged by the ruling elite is the most important issue of our era.
I'll refocus on that.
Keep Going
I appreciate your focus on the ruling elite and income inequality and have learned a lot. Keep going!!
Focus where you feel you'll be most effective
A lot of us feel that the two issues are not unconnected, and that the current media-driven awareness is not just a coincidence - almost like a distillation of the different priorities of Clinton and Sanders voters removed from the candidates themselves and brought to a boil. YMMV.
@gjohnsit
If it helps any, I personally had no problem with the essay, which I rather thought opened a much-needed discussion. And I did not at any point feel that anyone was supporting sexual assault or harassment, or belittling any victims.
Just my personal perceptions, but then again, I feel that I know the people here well enough to not be expecting any acceptance or promotion of such abusive behaviours - and have not had any recent personal experience of this nature (apart from some idiotic gross-but-non-threatening ass-grabbing under circumstances which made for a difficult social situation) to make me more likely to expect to see any, even here.
Misunderstandings and disagreements are going to occur in virtually any/all relationships among humans; where the humans matter to us, we stay around to try to work through them and survive these, ideally with a better understanding gained and, hopefully, so does this site survive.
If the community here can be quelled and dispersed so easily, we know that we would never have achieved anything anyway, although I find it hard to imagine this to be likely.
When you look at what we've all variously so far survived in RL, and at the people, support, discussion and information - the intelligent and reasoning humanity we find here, would we really sacrifice this site - our lifeboat amid the tempest trying to drag us down into acquiescent ignorance and a for-profit death For The Right People - for anything at all? All I can say is that I wouldn't. And that whatever happens, I will always be grateful for this site and to have known/read every one of you.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
That's a very thoughtful comment
and I thank you for it. You express how I feel as well.
"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott
Thanks Steve...
beautifully said. I am humbled. Thank you my friend.
A note to the commenters: Decorum please.
(((((Steven D)))))
Your concern and caring are palpable, and I am so grateful for you.
You rock, sir!
As one of the orignators of the idea of this site
I appreciate this, Steven.
I hope others value the site too.
If this keeps happening, we soon will not have a site. Every time a flame war happens, we lose a few.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Yes folks...
if it wasn't for CStMS' vision several years ago this site wouldn't exist (we're coming up on our third anniversary in January).
flame wars
I respectfully disagree. (Something I seldom do with you, CSTMS!) Those who flee because they can't handle disagreements properly are the few we want out of here; and if they "self-deport", that's so much less grief for our beloved Conqueroo.
Those who know how to handle differences like civilized, rational adults will remain; and so long as we do do, this site will remain as well, Cat willing! (Especially if said adults who can part with a Bit of Coin do so!)
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
@thanatokephaloides I don't actually want
I don't actually want them out of here. I guess we do disagree, than.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
No! Not on this subject. Just, NO!
No!
Check out this comment. One of the last ones made by her. Read how she was treated by the OP. She used to donate $10/mo. Not anymore.
https://caucus99percent.com/comment/312213#comment-312213
Here's a snippet, but you really should read the whole thing, and the response she received:
Again, no!
Edit: corrected amount donated. Sorry for the mistake. Still, that's $120/year.
Deja, I have to correct you...
I've seen you state this now at least two times and it is not correct:
Her monthly donation was $10.00 per month, not $100.00, and I can prove it. No one donates $100.00 a month.
@JtC I'd like to give
I'd like to give you $100/month. It might be a good idea if I got off my ass and finally gave you $25!
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
My bad, I'll correct it.
Thanks for the clarification. I did not hear it directly from her, so I got it wrong.
Apologies to everyone.
She didn't leave, if she has, because of a disagreement.
I've seen this show before. When you believe some people are flat out wrong, sometimes it's time to hit the road.
If you read her WHOLE comment, you'd know why
And then, read the reply she got from the essay author.
That's why she left.
That type of bs is why we're "bleeding members". Dismissal of victims, and propping up creepy ogres and slut shamers with upvotes.
And yes, it is disagreement. Fundamental disagreement, actually.
What I meant is
she left, if she has because I don't know that, maybe she's taking a break, because of disgust. Disagreement maybe, but disgust, yes. And I don't blame her on that.
And yes, I read the entire comment.
Deja...
You are creeping close:
I asked for decorum in this thread. One thing leads to another, back and forth and this is how it starts.
Please.
@JtC Unfortunately,
Unfortunately, I know no more civil way to describe them. My intention is to shed light. Upvoting inappropriate and antiquated bs is the opposite of solidarity with victims and survivors, which I always believed was a tenit of lefties, and our ilk.
I understand...
but this how it happens. Someone makes a statement such as that one, to them it is righteous. Another member reads that, gets insulted and takes great umbrage and retorts, stepping it up a notch. Someone else decides to jump in one one side or the other and it gets taken to another level. And off to the races we go.
Fires start with one little spark.
@JtC Heard and
Heard and understood.
@thanatokephaloides Most times--actually,
Most times--actually, every time except twice, a long time ago--I've been sad when someone's left.
The men's rights guy and one other person, who basically exploded at JtC because he wouldn't do a site-wide censorship of some things. They, I basically felt, were better off gone.
I've been sorry about everyone who's left over the course of the last two or three flamewars.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
deports
I didn't say I wanted it to happen. But sometimes we're better off with some of these gone. It's not what we would want or choose; but it is the way things are.
And it should also be noted, please, that I was being (and remain!) deliberately non-specific in making those statements. They were generalities and offered as such only. As I said, I've steered pretty clear of the sexual harassment issue and will continue to do so. Yes, I loathe abuse; but I also realize that nothing I can say or do about that issue here will do anything save harm, so I avoid it.
My apologies for any resultant misunderstandings.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
@thanatokephaloides No
No misunderstandings here, Than; I'm not pissed at you nor do I think badly of you. We just disagree.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
It should come as no surprise
It should come as no surprise that many other victims were triggered as well. And, in my opinion, we need to listen to the stories the women here at c99 are telling us about themselves, about how this abuse and the miasma of silence that surrounded that abuse, affected their lives.Telling these stories and listening to them and responding with respect is the only real antidote, other than simply banning the topic, which JtC won't do, or abandoning it, which we won't do. Unfortunately, some of us really don't want to tell those stories. Understandably, I think. I find writing about it a distasteful task, to say the least.
Most of the discussion I've seen doesn't involve us (by which I mean survivors) telling our stories and people reacting to them. Most of it is debate about the abstract issues of sexual harassment, sexual abuse, sexual assault, and their impact on human relations, the rule of law, and politics. All these topics are fueled by the emotions that are triggered because many of us are survivors. But for the most part, we're not talking about our personal experiences. The emotions are driving the discussion, but we're not actually telling the stories. Again, it's understandable.
As for the media manipulation of this issue, I get the message that people don't want to hear about that. I've already said all I can about it. If people want to believe that I am dismissive, or don't care, about other female survivors of sexual assault, there's not much I can do about that.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Ok. Me to
Bingo.
Prof: Nancy! I’m going to Greece!
Nancy: And swim the English Channel?
Prof: No. No. To ancient Greece where burning Sapho stood beside the wine dark sea. Wa de do da! Nancy, I’ve invented a time machine!
Firesign Theater
Stop the War!
I now understand
I understand the media exploitation of this subject. And you get support when you post about it.
What is impossible for me to accept is that the handful of members (males and females, alike) whose antiquated comments make my skin crawl, and make me feel like I'm in a time warp and on a right wing website, have been led to think this way due to recent media exploitation. These are people with deep-set beliefs, not orchestrated propaganda by media exploitation.
Thank you, btw, for breaking down the exploitation aspect of it. Between you, and a couple others, I understand it better. I just refuse to sit back while a handful of people dismiss and excuse things that have happened to real victims. I'd do it for you, if the need arose.
Thank you also for other things you do and have done regarding this site. It's generally a soft place to fall, and I love it! Like others have stated, I have learned so much from so many.
Edit: added male and female, alike
I agree with you wholeheartedly, which in retrospect
is pretty funny, given how much we've disagreed lately.
What is impossible for me to accept is that the handful of members (males and females, alike) whose antiquated comments make my skin crawl, and make me feel like I'm in a time warp and on a right wing website have been led to think this way due to recent media exploitation. These are people with deep-set beliefs, not orchestrated propaganda by media exploitation.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on that point. The media manipulation exists not to put things into people's minds that weren't there before, but to rake up things which already existed, so they can set people at each other's throats. So on the one side, where the survivors are, they want to rake up trauma; on the other side, where the non-survivors, especially male non-survivors are, they want to rake up any sexism or misogyny that happens to be in that person's mind. But not every male non-survivor is going to be a sexist or a misogynist, so the remainder are encouraged to believe they are under attack, and respond defensively.
I never meant that sexist comments on the site came from the big bad media manipulating them into saying such things. I wish I'd realized that's what you were hearing. I would have clarified that immediately. I just didn't think of it because, well, the very idea is ridiculous!
I have held back from flaming one or two people who said things that I believed were either sexist or unkind or both. There have been a few times when I've been genuinely offended. I've held back from turning both jets on those people because I care about the community, and the site, and I will do nothing (if I can help it) to encourage a flame war. I generally make a few comments to show where I stand, and then fall silent, because I'm not gonna get drawn into a pointless fight with someone who has no intention of changing.
There was one instance where I simply didn't say anything, because I couldn't think of a way to respond to a given set of words that wouldn't pour gasoline on the flames. I regret that, but I still can't think of a way I could have expressed my views without making things worse.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Believe it or not, I actually refrain as well
I know that's a shocker, but I do, especially the ones who piss me off so badly regarding this particular subject.
I don't want to argue, especially at my soft place to fall. It's a huge downer.
You're one of many here I'd happily have a beer with (or iced tea) maybe some pho too.
@Deja Hey, let's do it.
Hey, let's do it.
And by the way, my three basic ideas weren't aimed at anybody in particular.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@Deja Are you anywhere in
Are you anywhere in the SE? Pho is hard to do more than a few hundred miles away.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Lol
I'm West of Houston, so no. Though, I'm lucky enough to have pho 12 miles away, and I live in the sticks. I was shocked to find really good pho in a town of 23,000, and just 12 miles away.
If you're ever in Houston, we can hit my brother's favorite place, though. Or any place close to where you'll be. Vietnamese places and taqerias are all over the place. It's truly glorious!
@Deja By the way, I just
By the way, I just had a revelation, and in case you didn't read downthread, I wanted to copy it here:
For me, the discussion of media manipulation was not an abstract thing, or a politician-centered thing, nor was it really off the topic of being sexually victimized. In fact, I just realized, I feel victimized by the way this topic is being portrayed, and used, as a political tool. It is grotesque to watch the establishment putting their filthy hands on something that is intensely personal to me. It is beyond offensive that anyone is using this for political purposes. Making bank off it (like the media), restoring one's tattered credibility by exploiting it (like the media), using it to set people at each other's throats so they won't be a bother (like the wealthiest few)--all of these are grotesqueries.
I feel a bit like I felt when the Clinton campaign--at Harvey Weinstein's suggestion--decided to use the dead elementary school children of Sandy Hook to get a poll bump. It's vile. The only difference here is, I feel like I'm in the crosshairs, because I'm a survivor. They can do whatever they want to whatever topic they want, and people will believe them. I'll see what they're doing, but I won't be able to get anybody to believe me or take it seriously.
Yeah, I'm triggered all right. It's just that I'm seeing my abuser in the establishment and the press.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal I can certainly
I can certainly understand how you'd feel that way. It's completely offensive. Disgusting! It makes total sense, that you're feeling it, too. Perspective is very helpful, so thank you.
I'm also very sorry that you were victimized; am so very glad that you survived, and you're here, as well!
@Deja I wish I'd
I wish I'd figured out what was motivating me sooner. No matter how self-reflective you think you are, there's always going to be multiple things you miss! It would have saved some arguments, maybe.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Torch song
Believe it or not, I actually refrain as well -- Just as well since flaming someone is pretty much the same as hurling insults as a way to win an argument (worked for the Dotard in Chief, though). Worse, it begets more of the same and likely earns you the enmity of your opponent who might well be persuadable on another topic at another time.
This!
"....The media manipulation exists not to put things into people's minds that weren't there before, but to rake up things which already existed, so they can set people at each other's throats. So on the one side, where the survivors are, they want to rake up trauma; on the other side, where the non-survivors, especially male non-survivors are, they want to rake up any sexism or misogyny that happens to be in that person's mind. But not every male non-survivor is going to be a sexist or a misogynist, so the remainder are encouraged to believe they are under attack, and respond defensively."
Coming from growing up in RWNJ land, yes, it's to rake up old emotional baggage that we all have, left over from our own treatment or those stupid voices in our heads we got from our family. Great comment.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
@lizzyh7 Thanks, lizzy.
Thanks, lizzy.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
Me, too! Exactly! (starting from the last bit quoted, lol.)
As for the rest: boy, you nailed it! (As usual, lol. Man, I love this site and the people here so often saying what I'm thinking, only better written!)
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
I think its a matter of emotion
I agree that not everyone can or wants to tell their own story. Re-telling is traumatic in itself as I discovered when I wrote my essay (though when it was over I was glad i did).
However, the women I've heard from (and a few men as well I should add because I received messages from both men and women) do relive that trauma and do feel dismissed when the subject is limited to "What is the bad media/deep state/Dems up to this time?" I hope that makes sense to you,
I think we need to find a way to have these considered as separate discussions if we are going to keep talking about the underlying "rape/harassment culture" that exists in many places, and the meta-topic of why is the media doing all these exposés now when it has been a well known problem for decades. It's valid to talk about the latter, but I saw too many people in the threads I read not distinguishing between a problem that transcends the Weinsteins, Frankens and Trumps of the world, i.e., one that has a profound effect on our millions of lives v. the discussion about the political exploitation of that issue because it may be part of a scheme to de-legitimize the Trump administration.
Maybe the way to do this is simply to have essays about the topics considered separately. Just spit balling here.
Take care
"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott
Again, what's weird is that I completely agree.
Just as with Deja, it seems, quite weirdly, that I'm in agreement with you more than I realized:
I think we need to find a way to have these considered as separate discussions if we are going to keep talking about the underlying "rape/harassment culture" that exists in many places, and the meta-topic of why is the media doing all these exposés now when it has been a well known problem for decades?
I absolutely agree, and that's why I thought I ought to write my story--it would shift us firmly out of the media whirlwind and into a real discussion. I don't want to suppress discussion of these topics. I want to reclaim them.
It's valid to talk about the latter, but I saw too many people in the threads I read not distinguishing between a problem that transcends the Weinsteins, Frankens and Trumps of the world, i.e., one that has a profound effect on our millions of lives v. the discussion about the political exploitation of that issue because it may be part of a scheme to de-legitimize the Trump administration.
De-legitimizing Trump is only part of it, IMO, though I find Mollie's analysis convincing. Anything that will set ordinary people at each other's throats has been exploited over the past two years. It's like somebody's got a list of potentially incendiary topics and is working their way down it. (well, this topic isn't working so well anymore, how about we bring up rape?)
For me, the discussion of media manipulation was not an abstract thing, or a politician-centered thing, nor was it really off the topic of being sexually victimized. In fact, I just realized, I feel victimized by the way this topic is being portrayed, and used, as a political tool. It is grotesque to watch the establishment putting their filthy hands on something that is intensely personal to me. It is beyond offensive that anyone is using this for political purposes. Making bank off it (like the media), restoring one's tattered credibility by exploiting it (like the media), using it to set people at each other's throats so they won't be a bother (like the wealthiest few)--all of these are grotesqueries.
I feel a bit like I felt when the Clinton campaign--at Harvey Weinstein's suggestion--decided to use the dead elementary school children of Sandy Hook to get a poll bump. It's vile. The only difference here is, I feel like I'm in the crosshairs, because I'm a survivor. They can do whatever they want to whatever topic they want, and people will believe them. I'll see what they're doing, but I won't be able to get anybody to believe me or take it seriously.
Yeah, I'm triggered all right. It's just that I'm seeing my abuser in the establishment and the press.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I liken c99%
as my church.
Many people go to church to find freinds with whom they can converse with.
They discuss things that they have in common, primarily religious in nature.
So where do atheists, humanists, or good people who are not particularly religious go? For many, if not most, are good people without religion.
C99% is where I come to find good people. And although many people here are religious, I appreciate the fact we don't have prayer before we begin or end our discourse.
There are good people here. Smart people. Engaging people.
This is my church.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
@earthling1 You just touched the hell
You just touched the hell out of me, earthling.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
This is my church too
Thank you!
Marilyn
"Make dirt, not war." eyo
This is all good.
Yet there is RL out there. JTC is concerned, and that's okay. You are supporting this great site.
The elephant in the room is that most of the community visits and contributes occasionally.
I, for one, had no idea that this was a thing on the site. I believe most didn't know that either.
JTC suggests shutting it down? Getting all Administrative? I don't get it.
If JTC wants to say this topic is pissing me off and don't talk about. Fine with me. There is so much else for us to engage on.
It's December, not the Ides of March, for jeebus on a stick.
Prof: Nancy! I’m going to Greece!
Nancy: And swim the English Channel?
Prof: No. No. To ancient Greece where burning Sapho stood beside the wine dark sea. Wa de do da! Nancy, I’ve invented a time machine!
Firesign Theater
Stop the War!
Jeez Ed...
you need to get out more. The "Shutting it down" thing was well over a year ago. And who better to be "all administrative" than the administrator.
As far as the not knowing anything is a thing here, only you can fix that.
I didn't know about it until yesterday either
until JtC posted about it, so that’s perfectly understandable. No one I know reads everything posted at C99 or participates in every thread of every post.
"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott
Raising my hand
I do read everything that's posted on here because I'm a political junky. I follow most of the links and then go to the homepage and read some more. If it sounds like I have too much time on my hands, I do. Sadly.
This is what I like about this site as well as the commentary. The topics that are discussed here are what we need to know about if we're going to find a way to deal with them. I am saddened by the number of people who have left the site for one reason or another.
Dallas Doc, Dammit Janet, moneysmith and Jekyll and Hyde and so many others who have moved on from here. Some have gotten disgusted with what happened to the country after we were screwed over by Herheinous and her henchmen and women.
Hopefully this was a hiccup and after the dust settles we will get back to normal here. No one has hurt me enough with their words for me to hope they are gone. And I'm hoping that those that left will find their way back here some day.
Me too
I would like to see them back too.
"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott
@snoopydawg I really miss Dammit
I really miss Dammit Janet! She was a joy. I actually still wonder about her, her son, their life from time to time. I sure hope they're way better than okay.
I texted with Janet months ago
she asked me to say hello from her to people here. I think she is just busy with and in real life. She will be back at some point, I think.
This is the only place I comment.
Between the election and the end of last January I came close to dropping off. It had nothing to do with the people here or the comments they were making. Thinking about the things that are happening became excruciatingly painful and, beyond my very local community, I see no way out.
Reading essays and comments and, still more, replying became a painful thing. I just didn't want the pain. I cut my reading back a bit but it was a feeling of solidarity with others here that caused me to stay. We may not quite be a family, but we are a community.
One other factor. I would guess that most sites discussing politics see an uptick in participants during election seasons and a fall off afterward.
I have no doubt that some left because they were offended. Others may have left because they found places they felt were a better fit. Then there are those who unplugged the computer, having long ago unplugged the TV, and spend their time taking walks and listening to their favorite CDs. Sometimes I think they're the lucky ones, but I couldn't keep what I see happening in the world bottled inside.
I am happy that you stayed with us
and that you can purge your feelings in a friendly environment.
"We may not quite be a family, but we are a community."
^^^this^^^
This is how I feel about this place too. We are a community and if or when the crap hits the fan, we have discussed becoming a commune on some land and ride out the upcoming catastrophe together.
The Hill and some other websites' commentary is beyond reprehensible because people are constantly bickering over someone's comments. I enjoy reading people's comments on the topic of the article, but on the Hill's site, I can't find anyone who is discussing it. I've been banned from it for who knows why and I've written them to complain about the bickering, but nothing changed.
Most of the time when we disagree with each other it's done politely. This is how a good website should be.
I Haven't Left and Am Still Here on c99%
For old times sake, here's an editorial cartoon on an issue in the news.
I haven't really left and still lurk here on c99% when time permits. It's been over 1 1/2 years when I last posted on DK, primarily because I didn't appreciate how Bernie Sanders and his supporters were treated there in 2015-16. I simply quit posting there - without much fanfare, or elaborating why I didn't feel like doing so. Perhaps things will change in the future. Since then, I haven't had much free time primarily due to work obligations; hence, my sporadic postings here.
As you well know, I was extremely active on DK right from the beginning when that blog started in 2002. I spent a great deal of time and effort working with numerous groups and individuals behind the scenes in organizing blogathons, fundraising efforts, and the like. I loved posting very long diaries on historical and political/policy diaries, many of which took 25-50 hours each to research and write. Not to mention maintaining a large database of editorial and other types of political cartoons. That was then, exhausting and time-consuming as it was!
As to the topic of this essay and JtC's earlier posting, I am completely in the dark. My approach to blogging is very simple (here is an example of my blogging rules and maintaining one's sanity) and requires keeping a very healthy and dispassionate distance from issues and individuals. It is entirely possible to believe passionately in issues without putting others down all the time and creating unnecessary drama to shine the light on oneself. Bloggers complaining about this, that, and the other while threatening to leave a blog is nothing new. It's always been that way, and I suspect will continue to be so well into the future.
No one has ever pissed me off and I'm not mad at anyone. JtC, joe shikspack, and others do a great job managing c99% and I am extremely grateful for their collective efforts. Also, a big shoutout to those who regularly post essays and comments here. This blog differs from many others in at least two respects: it is decidedly not boring and one doesn't detect a great deal of conformist thinking among its regular posters.
I'm not sure when I'll have more time to participate actively. Should Bernie decide to run again in 2020 - and we'll have a good inkling of that by mid-to-late 2018 - I will be again supporting his candidacy with my customary enthusiasm and vigor.
Thanks for remembering me.
A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma
Thanks for being here...
my friend.
@snoopydawg I think Doc and
I think Doc and DammitJanet were disgusted by the condition of politics, not the condition of the site, and that's why they left; but of course, I wouldn't want to speak for them--it's just I don't recall them ever saying anything bad about the site.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Kudos For This essay SD
And a standing ovation for the comments. I heartily agree and would like to emphasize this point:
My participation here has been both an educational widening of my horizons and an opportunity for personal growth. I am a better person for having the opportunity to share this safe haven with so many good people.
"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn
Well said
My thoughts exactly.
political issues university (PIU)
I forget who brought up this concept a while back, but I agree. One of the strengths I find here is the education on issues and expansion of viewpoints. Getting harder to find out in the wilds.
question everything
Perhaps it was this:
c99: University or Technical School
That's It!
Alligator U.
Thanks
question everything
Bravo, Steven.
What you said.
Hugs to everyone here. We're in this -- all of "this" -- together. It's rare that I feel that same sort of resolve anywhere else in life these days.
I think it's the "good faith" bit that is on trial here
We shall see, I suppose, whether "good faith" is in fact the desire of this community or does it, instead, wish to be some sort of insular little reality bubble like DKOS.
I see this issue as probably the first real test of this community. It's repercussions go well beyond #MeToo.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
@SnappleBC Oh, it's come by a few
Oh, it's come by a few times before.
Each time we lose a few.
This time, it's been much worse than usual.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
As in life...
one finds that not everyone is going to like you. That holds true for online communities as well. Some folks are just not into us.
And that's OK.
That's what I was thinking
To my understanding this community, insofar as it has any core principles, is rooted on truth and reality. Those who find truth and reality troubling are not going to find this a welcoming place.
This particular issue has already been taken mostly off the table. Alternate viewpoints are, at this point, silenced. So no further discussion can be had. Now it's a support group for survivors and our end conclusion is "burn them all at the stake."
I think that within any community there are bound to be a few such issues... this is the second of them I have for this site. I hope this site doesn't go down that path regularly. It reminds me a great deal of GOS. First get rid of all the alternate opinions then have a pretend-discussion bemoaning why the rest of the world doesn't see it our way.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
You have epitomized a major danger in community cohesion
If we have "pretend discussions", we are goners. Pull the plug. Shut it down. If I wanted a web site wherein most everyone echoed others, it wouldn't be here. If that uniformity is to be a feature, then I won't be here. I don't want everyone to agree with me. How could I learn anything if that were so?
Thank you, Steven.
You've articulated the issue beautifully. I appreciate you very much.
In reference to a comment you made up thread - I agree - I don't read everything posted and many times I'm only on the site a couple hours a day depending on my schedule.
I stop responding when I find myself at an impasse in a discussion or if I feel bullied. I also refrain from reading any responses I've received in order to disengage. It's self censoring, but I am not going to argue incessantly with folks here or anywhere. That's not my MO.
In reference to this subject, I could care less that the media is exploiting it for whatever nefarious purposes people think is occurring. I am all about its about time we bring this and all of it's ugly and shine the light on it and maybe it will decrease substantially. I'm too realistic to know it will never stop.
I am entitled to my feelings, as they are based in my reality - shit happened to me. I told one story of an experience I endured. I have many more, however, as Steven expressed it is difficult to tell it and relive it all over again. Being dismissed and marginalized is not my cup of tea. This subject is now on my taboo list, so will not discuss it with anyone anymore.
To JtC ~~ happy holidays ~~ it's not much, but I'm increasing my monthly contribution in the new year. I love this place so much it is the only one in which I invest. A million thanks for all you do.
Have a beautiful evening, everyone.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Orange Dead State
lost its sense of humour years ago.
Hopefully, we can all still enjoy a pleasant laugh.
Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.
Dead State
Actually not a bad Zombie Survival Game...
Dead State, I mean.
Needed a little more refinement, and honestly the noise mechanics were crap... but I wish the developer had kept it going.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
I'm in favor of show trials
Maybe a little nostalgia for 1937 will improve things around here.
The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.
@Cassiodorus I was thinking more 1953
I was thinking more 1953.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Well right now I'm holding a piece of paper --
with the names of forty-two card-carrying traitors to C99%...
The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.
@Cassiodorus You think C99 is
You think C99 is McCarthy?
Interesting view.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
C99 is my oasis in a red political desert
When you live in Alabama and think, you have to learn tolerance for other views. That is if you are going to interact with anyone out in the world. What's weird is most of the folks around here have the worst politics and self-righteous religious views, but the will stop and help you if you have a flat tire or other emergency.
We all have good and bad points. How can I be mad at my neighbors for their blindness when the system has contrived to insure they can't see? Like Rodney King suggested, I try to get along. I might steer a conversation toward the weather, or gardening, or...
So c99 provides me a place where my socialism isn't considered crazy, extreme, and un-American.
Having taught for decades, learning the get along is a skill you develop. One of the best lessons a veteran teacher shared with me when I was starting..."You're going to have students that you just can't get along with, but you know the saying 'They're not so bad once you get to know them?'...It's true." And I found it to be so. That kid that drove you nuts...ask them what they did last night, about their hobbies, and so on...and before long you're friends (at some level).
I think Deja and CSMS's conversation in the thread above is kind of an example of that...once 'let's go have a beer' entered... all the tension was gone.
The reality is we are in a digital world with different parameters. Seems we could all be moderators when we see flames arising. We can climb on Big Al's fire truck and put it out before it becomes a problem. Seriously we should all call out anyone who is shooting down or intimidating others whenever we encounter it. When we feel things strongly it is really difficult to accept others see it differently and it is easy to get carried away. Having others suggest we're getting carried away would help...IMO.
So tolerance, kindness, and compassion go a long way in a blog and in life. Thanks JtC and all of you for being this community!
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Ditto, Steven D, let's continue - I feel lost, but ...
...that's the most comprehensive thread of wondering minds about what the discussion about sexual harassment/rape's consequences mean.
I only feel I should apologize/explain my participation in that discussion again, because I feel bad about what happened.
That being said, here my "excuses":
One of my most deeply felt personal life experiences is that one can not really overcome any tensions between races, gender and religions, if one has not physically - in the real world -experienced them in one's own life. It's different, if you have lived it or if your mind is just thinking and imagining them and the compassion is based on something more 'in theory' than lived experience. One thinks and hopes one can overcome that. My personal experience is that seldom one can.
That's why I think most of us get so attached to sites like C99p, where people are deeply involved in making sense to what causes the tensions we live with on a daily basis. That is so honorable an attempt that I never would want these attempts by all of its participants to stop and be a cause for them to leave this site.
At the same time it's such a painful experience to witness how futile our attempts are, when it comes personal and private experienced issues of sexual or racial or ethnic/religious discrimination, abuse and sexual physical violence.
May be a simple way of saying it, would be to consider that it's the difference between having experienced hunger (being hungry all the time) and thinking about what it would be to suffer hunger. Honestly, I believe one can't know what it feels like, if one hasn't experienced it oneself, neither hunger, sexual assault or being oppressed and losing one's livelihood (job, home, shelter), because one had spoken truth to power.
I was lucky to not have been harassed or molested in any of my work places and never physically sexually assaulted, as an adult or a post-puberty teenager.
But someone, who was just 13 years old, has tried to use me at age 8 to live out his sexual fantasies. Both of us were children, one pre-puberty, one just about post-puberty. It is clear that my parents considered me a victim, and it was also clear that my parents judged the 13 year old a 'victim' of his own coming into age, ie puberty, gone off the 'chart'. Luckily that didn't last longer than a week, was realized quickly by my parents, and all I remember is that it was a "huge" deal, because I cried so much that next day I didn't even have to go to school. (see, what's really important to an eight year old.. ;-)) I was neither physically harmed or assaulted, just experienced the attempt of using me sexually.
For that and other reasons - later in my life I witnessed attitude manipulations of elderly people as well - I came up to argue with the user 'on the cusp' about folks making differences between children pre-puberty and post-puberty. I understood the court of public opinion to be what folks outside the legal system, ie non-lawyers, non-judges, not real courts, how those folks would judge in their own minds. That's what sucked me into commenting. And in hindsight, I regret that.
It was not worth it. I should have known better.
Ok, I am out of words, excuses and thoughts now. I hope you excuse my spaghetti mass of words. It's not easy for me.
I hope you come back here and read or write or comment and just go through this as we make that path by having walked on it.
Peace.
https://www.euronews.com/live
What I have planned for tomorrow.
I will escort a man still in high school to the jail. He will be cuffed, fingerprinted, and we will have a hearing on his bail.
I will not know until afternoon when I see the arrest warrant if it is misdemeanor or felony, up to 99 years in prison, until I see it. I do know the alleged victim is older than my client.
I have presented cases to grand jury to get someone charged with a sex crime.
I have gotten parental rights terminated for sexual assault.
All of you talk about this as media manipulation, as MeToo, as due process and Trump pussy grabbing.
Or, maybe your personal experiences as a victim, or your fear of being attacked as a perpetrator at the work place when all you ever meant to do was flirt.
The laws I work within are supposed to set limits on cave men (and women)and so forth.
So talk away. Pontificate. State your views.
I will be inside a jail, taking care of a client who just threw up, possibly soiling himself,shielding him from cops who just want him to "explain some things" to them and give up his right to remain silent, ( right he does not understand he has)and I hope all of you have a nice day.
I am going to be very picky in the future about commenting. This whole topic changed my view of the site.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Damn, otc, good luck n/t
Surrendering him into custody
should be an indication that he will not jump bail.
I do not want that young man in that jail.
He is so small. He will not do well in general population.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Yesterday night I tried to read through
your profile and comments and realized you are a lawyer, clearly involved deeply into law and sexual molestation issues. I didn't know that. And I am sorry I jumped at you for the choice of words you made in reacting to my initial comment.
I can't really say to this comment anything other than say that a legal system that gives someone who is not of legal age (in my home country it used to be 21 and then as of the 1970ies it became 18 years, if I remember correctly) a life sentence of 99 years, makes me throw up. I am glad you try to protect the young man's rights. I am a firm conscientious objector of the death penalty and would defend a woman's right to choose an abortion unconditionally. I am also a firm believer that anti contraceptive pills a should be free of cost for all girls and women and higher education of any kind should be free of cost. I pretty much hate it that in the US these basic rights have never been achieved politically.
I admit that I am basically naive in many ways about the level of sexual assaults happening around me. In my life I just got nebulous hints of them having happened in my extended circle of friends and family. I know they have life-long consequences on the victims, but are not easily to be recognized, understood or acknowledged. So, I think, I am grateful for any support of either side of people involved in sexual assaults, of which I think both sides can be unfairly judged, by the courts or by the public.
May be I can add a little anecdote about how I learned how some 'natives' (in Caucasian minds people who live close to 'cavemen's' attitudes) deal with attempted sexual assaults of young girls. Basically the girls band together and make huge noises about the sexually assaulting young man. Complain wildly about him. He then is chased into the deep jungle by the elderly village folks and left there to fend for himself (which is very difficult and can cause him to die). After he has been 'lost' for several months, someone in the village sneaks into the woods, searching for him and secretly gives him some food. Again many months later the man reappears into the village and the case is 'closed' meaning the village folks ignore the case as if it never happened.
I know that severe violent rapes happen in African countries south of the Sahel zone to the extend that special clinics for the victims are established to help them overcome the trauma, but I believe these rapes are are based on war fare. We had them at the end of wwII in Berlin, Germany, as well, when the Russians marched in. So, that's another issue altogether.
I have my own trigger of getting testy. My job between 2007 and 2014 was to watch US TV pool feed (CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC video material made to cover the political events for the American audience), so I had been overloaded with watching US made TV videos covering political events. To be frank, I often couldn't stand it anymore and many of our German producer got hissy fits watching HOW political events were covered in US media. I am allergic against HOW events are reported, not what they report on. Hope that helps understanding my 'ponitfication'.
Peace.
https://www.euronews.com/live
@on the cusp OTC, I've got no
OTC, I've got no problem with you or anything you've said. If you've got a problem with me and what I've said, I regret that, as I've always liked and respected your comments over the years.
I'm equally sorry that you won't be commenting much on the site from here on out.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Pages