The Mother of All Destroyers (Updated)

“Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds”

Many years ago, if I remember correctly it was 2009-2010, I was a member of a vibrant left leaning blogging community that was about the same size as this one. In retrospect it very much reminds me of c99p and I know several of our members here were also members there and may recognize the scenario that I'm about to expand upon. As a matter of fact much of the design and concept of this site was borrowed from that site. There are many similarities.

But there appeared a dark cloud on the horizon. I personally witnessed this community destroy itself.

This community I speak of blew itself up over a very divisive issue, IP (Israel/Palestine). If I remember the timeline correctly a comment was made in a diary that the administrator deemed as antisemitic and the commenter was banned. Several folks disagreed with the banning. This led to several dueling heated diaries on the I/P subject, tempers came to the boiling point. Members lashed out at each other, it was ugly. Lines were drawn, fingers were pointed, folks that were allies became enemies. This war dragged on for several days and did eventually settled down. But the damage was done. Several members were banned and many folks left and never came back. The site limped on for a while after that but never recovered from that fiasco. One by one more and more people left. The site lost its mojo and became a ghost town. It still survives but the original community was totally and utterly destroyed. It was a sad and sorrowful situation.

Witnessing that destruction left a lasting impression on me. I loved that community. It was fun, very smart and mostly open, as we are. I learned the lesson well. I am hyper-vigilant that the same does not happen here. A case in point: about a year ago a very heated essay and comment thread threatened this very community. Essentially it was about the same issue. It immediately brought back memories of the demise of the community that I mention above. With that debacle vivid in my mind I took action to stop what I saw as a very possible rerun of what I had witnessed before. So after much deliberation I decided to shut down the comment section of that essay. I took quite a bit of heat for doing that but in my mind it was worth it knowing what the vitriol could lead to. People were pissed at me, stating my action as censorship, but the site did not blow up.

Now we are faced with an issue that very well may be the catalyst of demise of this site, and that is not hyperbole. We need to get a handle on it now before it's too late. The sexual harassment issue is tearing this site apart and I as the lead moderator am not sure what to do about it. Something must be done before we go too far down the road of destruction. But what?

We take pride in our open discussion tenet so how do we reconcile that with an issue that is so volatile and divisive and destructive. Initially I thought that letting essayist and commenters have at it that it would get it out of our collective systems and eventually calm down. That hasn't proven to be the case. It dies down after a while only to rekindle again and every iteration seems to get worse. This issue is only going to get worse in the day/weeks/months ahead on the local and national stage so it's not going to go away any time soon. I expect it will be the same here. Lines are being drawn, sides are being taken, feelings are being hurt and folks are leaving. We are becoming what we all loathed elsewhere.

It would be much easier if we proceed as most sites do and just make certain issues verboten. But that's not us. Didn't the vast majority of us leave other sites because of that very thing? We lose our identity if we make certain issues unmentionable. I despise that idea. But how do we stop ourselves from tripping into the abyss?

Here are the options as I see them:

* Make the issue verboten. Not good. We become what we hate.
* Ban folks. Not good. We become what we hate.
* Close down comments on all essays on this issue. Yes, this is a viable option but could lead to dueling essays rather than dueling comments.
* Close down comments when they take a wrong turn. Yes, this is viable but how does one arbitrate without taking sides?
* Warnings and vacations (I hate the term timeout). This leads to hard feelings and folks will leave.
* Let things go as they are and let the chips fall. Nope, too much work went into this site to sit back and let it fail.
* Everyone make a concerted effort to be civil. That's our only standing rule here and so far it hasn't worked too well on this issue.

I have my own opinions on this issue and believe me many times I want to speak out, so I wrestle with myself to stay as neutral as possible. This is tearing me up watching this happen to this community.

Before I take a course of action, and possibly the wrong one, I want to pose this to the community. Personally, I am leaning towards closing all comments that breach this issue.

Please folks, how do we pull back from the abyss? I need your help. We need our help.

Update: There is much wisdom flowing from the comments which is what I was hoping for. I'll refrain from commenting for now. I'll just listen to what you have to say. Thanks folks.

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Unabashed Liberal's picture

because this issue is so painful and emotional, I've opted--with the exception of expressing myself to Steven D, some time ago--to comment only on the 'political' aspect of this topic, as it relates to the MSM and politicians/lawmakers/candidates. (I have a 14 December NYT piece to post on this topic, later.)

Personally, I don't see this topic as a wedge issue, although I suppose that it could be in conservative blogging communities, considering their more patriarchal tendencies/worldview. Thank goodness, that's not C99P!

Pleasantry

For certain, by expressing this 'political' viewpoint, it's not my aim or intention to shutdown, or belittle discussion of this painful topic. My apologies to Deja or any other member, or reader, if that's how my words have come across. My comments have been related to the conduct of the media, not the conduct of the survivors of abuse.

Believe me, I'm well aware that the ability to open up, and speak of sexual abuse violations in a friendly and supportive environment, can be healing, in and of itself.

Mollie


"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage."--Lao Tzu
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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

Deja's picture

@Unabashed Liberal
I just need someone to, please, connect the dots between a subject as old as human existence (with very slow progress made since then), and it being called orchestrated propaganda, now that it's finally being talked about, out in the open and in the media.

If someone, anyone, can connect the dots, I'd be greatly appreciative. If I can't see the connection, which has been the case, every time I've tried to get an explanation that makes sense to me, then I see it as a dismissal. Doesn't make it so, but it's certainly what it feels like, to me.

I have the utmost respect for you, and hope you can help me understand the connection that you see.

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Unabashed Liberal's picture

@Deja

I may have hurt you (after reading your comments in this thread), and that was the farthest thing from my mind. I am very sorry.

Let me run 'the B' out. Then, I'll be back, and give it my best try.

Mollie

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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

Unabashed Liberal's picture

@Unabashed Liberal

in rain, and 'the B' is getting pretty feeble.

Okay, maybe I should begin with 'there's absolutely no smoking gun that I can offer.' Actually, over the past couple weeks or so, I did try to lay out my thinking on the topic of the MSM's attempt to create [what I perceive as] a milieu in which to 'retry' the Donald. I am, of course, referring to the fact that there were a slew of (DT) sexual assault accusers who came forward with their stories in October of 2016, but, it appears that the charges were mostly ignored, since some 63-65 million Americans went to the polls in November, and cast a vote for him. The rest is history, as they say.

As pretty much a news hound, I've noticed that since the Romney speech in March 2016, most of Cable News has been a relentless onslaught of negative commentary, etc., about anything and everything to do with DT, his family, and his Administration (much of it deserved, undoubtedly). Excepting Fox News Channel, of course. And, even when there are what would normally have been considered major news stories--terrorist attacks (San Bernardino, NYC), hurricanes (Harvey, etc.), or mass shootings (Orlando, Nevada, etc.)--Cable News coverage of it is mostly cursory. (To be fair, they did give a couple or three days, each, to Harvey and Orlando and Nevada, before they fell off the radar.)

Including, when TV icon--Bill Cosby, who had approximately 60 charges of documented (alleged) assault charges--went to trial this past spring/summer. From my observation, the Cable News channels mostly covered this spectacle as an 'aside.'

So, when the Weinstein accusations came up, and the MSM/Cables News hosts/ jumped into the conversation with great relish for several weeks--nonstop--it caught my attention. (And it wasn't, at all, because I regarded these events/accusations as unimportant. It was because it was so unusual for the MSM to allow their attention to be diverted.)

Somewhere around week three (after Weinstein's story broke), the talking heads began to make reference to DT's earlier accusers. Soon, stories retelling their accounts/stories begin to crop up in MSM print media (WaPo, NYT, etc.). In a couple more weeks, after the resignations of Franken and Conyers--there were loud calls for DT's resignation, and/or calls for him to be 'held accountable.'

To be clear, it's not that I believe that the accusers' stories have been fabrications. My point has always been that I believe that when the Weinstein story first broke, the MSM decided that pursuing this story would provide them a 'platform' to call for the re-litigation of DT's accusers' charges.

IOW, they were both 'opportunistic' and/or cynical in their pursuit of these stories.

Folks may recall that I looked it up, and it was 3 October when the Weinstein story broke. At that time, the Comey/Mueller investigations had been ongoing since July of 2015--and had yet to yield an indictment, or a smoking gun. I 'suspect' that the bipartisan Deep State/One Percent/MSM had concerns that the Russia saga would be a bust. As a result, they may have reasoned that sexual assault charges could provide them with a 'backup' narrative, upon which they could build a case for bringing articles of Impeachment--if Russia didn't pan out.

Regardless, however, of the MSM's ulterior motive--or my impression of it--in no way does it detract from anyone's account of sexual abuse/assault/harassment. Period. End of story. At least, not in my opinion.

Or, to put it another way, my obvious disdain for the MSM should not be mistaken for disdain of any survivors (or accusers) of sexual assault.

Hope that helps explain my views. If others don't share them, it's okay with me, and probably to be expected. It is quite simply my 'opinion.' Nothing more.

I hope this helps clarify my points, Deja.

(But ask away, if it doesn't. Pleasantry )

Mollie

[In advance, please excuse typos. For the sake of time, I'll come back and proof it, and make corrections, accordingly.]

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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

@Unabashed Liberal

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Unabashed Liberal's picture

@irishking

got anything out of my long-winded comment--considering all the typos!

Biggrin

Mollie


"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage."--Lao Tzu
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Deja's picture

@Unabashed Liberal
That certainly helps. Sure wish others could be that easy to understand. Several just say it's propaganda, and that's that. No further explanation, which definitely comes across as an attempt to shut down the conversation - especially when clarification is requested.

I'm not going to stop calling out people who defend ogres and/or slut shame, though - especially here, because it's an insult to my sensibilities to read it here, of all places. I still remember Anita Hill. That was a travesty. Not going to sit silently. I just can't.

Thanks again, for your easy to follow explanation. Smile

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@Deja I've mentioned that here once before I believe. Being married to a black man at the time, we both took that as trying to not put a black judge on the SC. Bought it hook, line and sinker. He's my ex now and I wonder sometimes if he feels the same about that as I do now. He does have a daughter...

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

Unabashed Liberal's picture

@Deja

'say your peace.'

I hope that my comments/opinions are never responsible for squelching another Community member's ability, or willingness to express themselves freely; so, never hesitate to ask me for clarification, if it appears that I'm trying to shut down a conversation. (That would basically be counter to everything that I believe in.)

Have a good one!

Mollie


"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage."--Lao Tzu
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janis b's picture

@Unabashed Liberal

you are beyond belief ; ).

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Unabashed Liberal's picture

@janis b

beyond kind and supportive; always so quick to find 'the good' in Everybody.

Pleasantry

Mollie

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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

janis b's picture

@Unabashed Liberal

the downer of looking for ‘the bad’ ; ).

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Thanks Jtc for all the work you do to keep this site running.

Have tried to comment twice and the gremlins are giving me grief. Would be nice if we could always have civil discourse but it does not work that way. At some point if people cannot agree to disagree,I feel it is OK to step in and if this does not calm the comments then end the comments for that thread.

Find the comments are a valuable part of any essay posted and bring more to the table. It also makes this feel like we are a community on life's highway and I personally gain a lot from this community.

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Life is what you make it, so make it something worthwhile.

This ain't no dress rehearsal!

Not Henry Kissinger's picture

Except not quite this way:

This community I speak of blew itself up over a very divisive issue, IP (Israel/Palestine). If I remember the timeline correctly a comment was made in a diary that the administrator deemed as antisemitic and the commenter was banned. Several folks disagreed with the banning. This led to several dueling heated diaries on the I/P subject, tempers came to the boiling point. Members lashed out at each other, it was ugly. Lines were drawn, fingers were pointed, folks that were allies became enemies.

You're being too nice to the people responsible.

The way I remember it, a couple of power hungry admins (who were not the owners) went on a mad banning spree because they simply would not tolerate any criticism of the Israeli government and the IDF in suppressing Palestinian protests.

In order to justify their blogrom, they dishonestly conflated criticism of Israel with anti-semitism and used this pretext as an excuse to abuse their positions of authority and summarily ban anybody who disagreed with them.

Once they banned enough folks (yes, I was one), the rest left in disgust over the ham-fisted censorship.

So no, I don't believe the community blew itself up over the I/P debate. It was blown up by two fanatics who simply didn't want to hear the debate, and who frankly had no business 'moderating' a blog community in the first place.

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

@Not Henry Kissinger

thx.

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@Not Henry Kissinger
You and I were good buds on that blog. Your memory is better than mine, and you are correct I purposely was more kind than you. But technically even if it was the excuse for what happened, it was I/P that was the catalyst. And wasn't the whole thing touched off when Inky was banned for a comment he made? I really don't remember that well. But I do remember the total destruction of the blog and that is what stuck with me.

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Not Henry Kissinger's picture

@JtC

@JtC But technically even if it was the excuse for what happened, it was I/P that was the catalyst.

wasn't the topic. In fact, before the admins took it upon themselves to censor opposing views, the discussion, while heated at times, was surprisingly civil and thoughtful. It was only after the bad behavior of the people running the blog made the situation untenable that people started leaving in droves - a point a number of us made at the time.

In fairness, Buhdy didn't much like IP discussions because he said they were too divisive, but by that time he had pretty much checked out from his own blog (for personal reasons) and left us to the tender mercies of the bullies, who cited that fear as a justification for suppressing opinions they didn't like. In that way I think Budhy's fear of IP destroying the blog became a self fulfilling prophesy.

The point is that it wasn't the topic that killed the blog, it was the admins' suppression of the topic that was the true culprit. I strongly believe that if those two hadn't acted the way they did, the blog would have been just fine. People would have made their points, had their arguments, moved on to the next issue, and the community in the long run would have been stronger for it.

Bottom line, bad management killed docudharma, not bad topics.

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

@Not Henry Kissinger
as I said, your memory of the incident is better than mine.

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Not Henry Kissinger's picture

@JtC

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

Not Henry Kissinger's picture

@JtC @JtC

about inky being the first casualty, but what really got the ball rolling was when they banned dharmasyd, a sweet old lady with a keen intellect, a great sense of humor, and a kind word for just about everybody.

For many, including me, that was a bridge too far. My last comment before I was banned said just that.

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

@Not Henry Kissinger
wasn't Syd accused of being a nazi or some such. That one was really over the top.

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Not Henry Kissinger's picture

@JtC

It was a real travesty what happened. We had all put a lot into that place, and to see it suddenly suicided like that was tough.

Nice to have an opportunity to chat about all this.

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

@Not Henry Kissinger
old buddy.

I lurked at DKos starting in 2003-2004, read the site every day, but couldn't bring myself to join. Then one day I followed one of buhdy's links to his site, read just a little bit and knew I had found a home, I joined right then and there. That was 2009.

What happened in the conflagration there was like a kick in the stomach. I didn't get banned but I banished myself to wandering the void. Then we found writingintheraw and something similar happened there.

You are absolutely right about the mismanagement and I learned a great deal from that. I hope that reflects in my style here. I witnessed the pitfalls and try like hell to avoid them.

Thanks man, yeah it is therapeutic.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Not Henry Kissinger How can you ban dharmasyd? Holy cannoli.

It would be like banning mhagle!

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Not Henry Kissinger's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal @Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal How can you ban dharmasyd?

Just goes to show how beserk they went.

Between the two of them I figure they must have banned at least ten hardcore regulars - many of whom had been with Budhy since he first broke from Agent Orange. I think I was the fourth or fifth to get banned.

They ripped the guts out of the place, all so they could lord over the corpse.

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Not Henry Kissinger Sheee-iiittt!

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

mhagle's picture

@deja

IMO this woman articulates how TPTB diminished the severity of this issue by using it to their political advantage.

"A Survivor’s Defense of Al Franken” @SIIPCampaigns https://medium.com/@SIIPCampaigns/a-survivors-defense-of-al-franken-ea99...

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

EdMass's picture

accused and accusers, whatever that may be in each of the individual cases.

C99 cannot decide a general due process for all cases.

C99 can decry that all that is coming out is disturbing and wrong.

We can debate the cultural and sociological circumstances that have brought us to this point.

Don't know if this is Waterloo based on your take.

If you feel you have to do something, better to exclude the topic rather than take administrative actions. I think this community is better than that.

You might peg this at the top of the Home Page so all can see it rather than let it drift down the posts lists and many might not get the message

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Prof: Nancy! I’m going to Greece!
Nancy: And swim the English Channel?
Prof: No. No. To ancient Greece where burning Sapho stood beside the wine dark sea. Wa de do da! Nancy, I’ve invented a time machine!

Firesign Theater

Stop the War!

LeChienHarry's picture

for the information provided by JtC and the commenters in the thread, I have my own observation.

It seems that a well thought out essay with the difficulties stated clearly from JtC and other mods seems to have brought out the best in all the comments ( a couple of exceptions).

Personally, after reading through all this I come down on a different answer: when things get contentious a nice essay just as this one from the owner and maybe mods seems to bring out the best in us all.

Those who have stoked the chooses sides and you're the bad guy line need the quiet suggestions to step away from the keyboard. Then before people leave or the first one sends a private message, get on with an essay while we take a collective time out.

Using what I have seen here in this essay and thread as a model. Thank you all for trying so hard to make this work, and especially JtC. I really appreciate those who have rewritten words to clarify and to issue apologies for previous possible too strong comments.

I do wish some voices I truly miss would come back as they offer part of the glue which keeps us together. I have watched and gotten caught up in truly awful POV on the other site without meaning to. This resonates as the community means as much as any information or analysis I may gain.

Thank you all and Joyeuses Fêtes whatever they may be.

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You may choose to look the other way, but you can never say again you did not know. ~ William Wiberforce

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

as people interpret my attempts to hold us together and preserve the site as "not caring" about women, survivors of sexual assault, etc.

The reason I have talked so much about media manipulation is that I truly believe the reason this issue is being highlighted by the five media multinationals is to create the exact result we are experiencing here, online and offline, across the country, just as they did previously with race. I believed that if we recognized that, we could engage with one another on this topic differently, with an eye toward making sure the manipulation didn't work--and perhaps even reclaiming the topic for ourselves.

It hasn't had the desired result. People just got angry. Maybe they thought I was saying we shouldn't discuss the subject; sometimes they said that I believed the stories weren't true, though I was as clear about that as I could be.

My idea for this site was to have a place where people could discuss things without fear of censorship or reprisal, AND take a civic responsibility to preserve the site and treat members with respect--because we care about each other and want this place to continue to exist.

I want that to succeed. It's more important than people think. That kind of discussion is in sharp decline everywhere.

However, I've only got one remaining thing I've thought of that might help, which is to tell my story, thus bringing everything down to earth: this happened to this one woman (girl, at the time), this is how she felt about it, this is how she feels about the way the issue is being dealt with on high at this time, etc.

But every time I think about writing my story I feel a profound distaste and reluctance to do so. There's about fifteen things I'd rather write about than that. C99, though important to me, has not yet been important enough that I want to dredge up the feelings I had over 35 years ago when I was under the domination of a pretty terrible person. At 12, the rapist fills the sky, especially when he is a persistent presence in your life. I don't especially want to revisit that in the way I would have to if I wrote my story. Those of you who are writers will understand--you can't exactly insulate yourself while writing.

I'd really like us to be able to solve this with reason, so that I don't have to dredge up some of the worst emotions of my life in order to (hopefully) short-circuit the hostility around here.

Three basic ideas.

Freedom of speech is fine, but speech also has consequences. The wise man--or woman--takes them into consideration before speaking.

It's a truism that the elites and, therefore, the media that they own, want to divide non-elites up. Preferably, they'd like them split into warring camps spitting vitriol at one another. If you accept that as true, seems to me that you would want to refuse to cooperate with them. If not, why would you be here in the first place? That doesn't mean take any behavior that's handed out, in order to preserve a fake harmony. It does mean that everyone should be skeptical of any impulse to divide ourselves up into warring camps, whether it comes from oneself or others.

If you care about caucus99percent, or want it to be around in the future, in the midst of your emotions, whatever they may be and whichever side of this issue you are on, spare a thought for the site. It would be really easy for it to wither and die. How would you feel the morning you came to the site and realized it was all over?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

Just going to pause in my thunderous applause long enough to send a giant hug to that 12-year-old... and pass the kleenex as soon as I grab another. I'm so sorry...

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Ellen North I won. Smile

I'm an independent woman with my own mind and a life that I'm pretty happy with.

But thank you for the hug, and the support. I felt very alone back then, and a little crazy. Didn't really understand what was happening. Hysterical amnesia (boy do they need another name for that) is a bitch.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

One small correction:

'...I'm an amazing and independent woman with my own mind and a life that I'm pretty happy with....'

I was 17, and utterly devastated by that single incident. At 12, I think I'd never have recovered... I knew you were amazing before, just not how much and in how many ways!

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal And I don't want you to have to dredge up some horrible thing from the past to justify your position. I don't think that's fair to ask. I think you have more than made your very good points. IMHO.

I don't think I've written anything too tactless but I very well may have. I am not always good at tact and in fact, find it very difficult sometimes. But I agree media is cheapening and demeaning women's, and men's, very real trauma for ratings and the PTB agenda. These people will use or say anything to get their way, they do not have shame or empathy or anything much resembling human. Not anymore, they sold that a long time ago.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@lizzyh7 Well, my view is that they can't be a bunch of corrupt, untrustworthy bastards reporting lies from Feb-November 2016 and then suddenly become a bunch of reliable narrators who report things for the sake of the truth and the common good; not unless they've had a huge turnover in their CEOs and corporate boards.

Very few people on this board have ever been tactless to me. It's one of the reasons I like it so well!

You and me are fine, lizzy.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

divineorder's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal @Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal Use a few links to back up your speculation on the collusion of the press, or a least be clear that this a best guess and not hard fact.

One additional thing would be to encourage you and a few others to back off feeling you have to police anyone who thinks the way forward is to work with the shell and legal advantages of the Democratic Party and the institutional bars to a third party.

Thanks.

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@divineorder No problem; I'd already decided that conversation had come to the point where I was ceasing to say anything useful.

However, if somebody actually asks me my opinion--or asks those of us who share my views--I'm going to respond honestly, of course.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

divineorder's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

janis b's picture

it seems to me that there is a great desire to reinforce what is essential and productive in meaningful conversation. That is something special to honour and work towards. I find it interesting and inspiring to experience a communal effort toward something so worthwhile.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@janis b That's exactly what I was hoping for when we first conceived of the site.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

janis b's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

I didn't know that before this recent discussion.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@janis b You're welcome. Hopefully, some day soon, I'll tell that story.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

travelerxxx's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

Hopefully, some day soon, I'll tell that story.

As someone who wasn't here for the genesis of C99, but rather an Ides of March exile, I'd love to read that story.

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