"Democrats are throwing in the towel on collusion"
The fact that this article was posted in the WashPost. the mouthpiece of the Democratic Party establishment, makes this significant.
Once the dust settles, the Democrats and their media allies will realize that there is nothing more to this story than what Flynn has admitted to. Commentators are saying Flynn has agreed to cooperate, as if that is something new. The fact is, there was never a time when Flynn wasn’t cooperating. He has been a cooperating witness since special counsel Robert S. Mueller III’s investigation began.The Democrats won’t admit it, but they are throwing in the towel on collusion. Their only choice now is to prop up the convoluted claim of obstruction of justice, and that could go on forever. The ordeal may be bothersome for the White House, but it won’t be fatal.
Oh and by the way, let’s reflect on what has happened in this investigation so far. Paul Manafort and Rick Gates were indicted on matters associated with foreign-agent registration and money laundering that predated any engagement they had with Trump. Flynn has pleaded guilty to a crime that occurred after the campaign was over. To be precise, none of this involves the president or his campaign. It’s all ugly and ragged, but this White House has a lot of ugly and ragged.
To quote a friend of mine, the Democrats have been spiking the football on the 40 yard line.
What will they do at TOP without their wet dream of impeaching Trump for treason?
In a related note, this poll from the bluest of blue states is revealing.
Sixty-two percent of Republicans in the poll said it’s time for a third party to rival the powers that be, compared with 59% of Democrats. Not surprisingly, the sentiment is even stronger among “independent” California voters who don’t register with a party — 72% said the two big political parties aren’t making the grade.
In all other subsets of voters — by age, ethnicity, high school or college graduates and more — just 36% or fewer think the two-party system is working. The message seems loud and clear.
[Update]
OK. This is bizarre.
House Republicans Prepare Contempt Action Against FBI, DOJU.S. House Republicans are drafting a contempt of Congress resolution against Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and FBI Director Christopher Wray, claiming stonewalling in producing material related to the Russia-Trump probes and other matters.
Isn't the DOJ controlled by the Trump Administration? Didn't Trump appoint the FBI director?
Comments
Hilarious
I'm only sorry I missed it. I live a mile away from Vromens in Pasadena. Had I seen them, I would've joined them.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Glad you enjoyed this
I'm sure it pissed a few people off. Do most people who go on a book signing tour usually charge money to the people who want their book signed? Just how much money does she need to live on? Sheesh.
Her's book tours are all sold out. She's even going to Canada in case people there can't get enough of her.
I wasn't aware Her was actually selling tickets
To these gullible souls. I guess Her really needs to make a point with this. The question is, what is it?
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Ticket prices seem to range all over, but getting cheaper
When the tour was announced I checked for ticket prices and none were given. In some cases prices came out like in Toronto, prices could range up to $2,000. Her UC Davis appearance tickets ranged $25 for students and then upwards to $250. Every ticket I believe got a book also.
there's a sucker born every minute.
.
Okay, biting the bullet here
I wasn't around here at the beginning of, or during, this whole Russian thing, so I'm unclear about the consensus. I'm picking up on confusing signals and just want to clarify.
Is it the feeling here that Russia didn't interfere at all in the last election? Or that they did, but nothing will ever be done about it because meh (like Fitzmas all over again)? Or that it's a given they did because our oligarchs and their oligarchs have been screwing the entire world for ages... and stopping them is a non-starter?
Personally I believe they did and this probably wasn't the first time. I have my reasons, but I'll wait for an answer before revealing them.
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons - For thou art crunchy and good with ketchup
I do not speak for anybody other than myself.
I try to read every essay and comment about Russiagate written here.
Yours is the first and only comment I have read that asserts Russia, and I assume you mean the government of Russia, attempted to influence the election.
Whatcha got?
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
let's see it.
the world is waiting.
lol!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
return with me to the days of yesteryear
Well, when I first got online in '97 - yeah, I was a late bloomer - one of the first things that captured my interests was that you could talk to people pretty much anywhere in the world. This was before other countries started closing that door. And one of the first things I found was a site that was for pen pal listings. Nothing to do with SWM wants to meet.... These were just people who wanted to correspond with others.
One of the people I saw listed was a 24 yr. old guy from Russia. He was a university student studying journalism, and he wanted to correspond with native English speakers so he could practice his English and write better. Despite the vast difference in our ages I dropped him a line.
One of the reasons I contacted him in particular was that I was working on a historical novel at the time and the protagonist was from the area bordering the Black Sea. I had dug up some history of the region, but not enough to do much with. This Russian kid was actually from that very area and his family had lived there for ages.
The other reason, and it's too a long story for now, I had worked with a large number of Russian Jews in 1989 and '90, but most of them didn't speak English. One guy did and he was a bit of a strange duck, but at least he was a good translator. Some of the things they talked about intrigued me. I thought maybe this college kid could explain some of it.
Okay, all of that doesn't have much to do with the story, but that's how I met this very intelligent young man who lived in Moscow. We're friends to this day.
Somehow, owing to my description of working with these Russians, we got on the subject of Russian government. Putin was an up and comer at the time, having been named Director of the FSB, and had just announced he was running for President. My friend expressed severe reservations about him because he was "too in bed with the Mafia."
Ah! The Mafia. I explained that I'd heard whispers about a Mafia-like organization in Russia years before and has wondered about it. So this kid starts in about how Russia was being run - quite blatantly - by "the Mafia," and Putin was their man. It was "a parody" of the Democratic reforms they thought they were going to get. Meet the new boss kind of thing.
This quickly started to make me nervous and worried about this kid because, in the way of young people, he just babbled all sorts of things - including full names of these people, who was sleeping with who, and who had whom in their pocket. I mean I was getting a crash course in Russian organized crime, and he wasn't making it up. He knew several woman who were sleeping with some of the high up enforcers. I heard some details about these people that... well, they probably wouldn't want people to know.
I advised him that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to be telling me all of this because it was possible our "private" email conversations weren't as private as he thought. I grew up in the fifties and sixties and Cold War mentality was still in force. I was worried he might well just up and disappear.
Well, not that this has much to do with the story either, but my (then) husband and I actually got to meet this guy in person. He came here to study journalism at an American university for a year, attended a seminar within a hundred miles of where I live, and we drove down to have lunch with him. He is indeed a real person and exactly who and what he said he was.
Then, he did in fact disappear. I stopped hearing from him abruptly and for like ten years I couldn't find a trace of him. I wondered if, a) he used his being in an American college town to quietly slip into our society, or b) if his youthful exuberance had landed him in trouble with the sort of people you really don't want to be in trouble with. All through those years I wondered and worried about what had happened to him.
Skip ahead to a couple years ago. I found him! I found him on FB. He's now in his forties, he was still in Moscow, and employed in the media, although not journalism per se. He posted photo-journals about all these nifty celebrations that resurrect old Russian legends and festivals, and about new and fantastic business developments in Russia.
We haven't yet talked about the current state of affairs in his country, but he did send me a long and rambling message on his philosophy of life now - which amounted to "don't worry, be happy."
Then he announced that he might be incommunicado for a while because he was packing his stuff, selling his apartment and doing some traveling after which he was going back to his home town.
I don't think I'll ever get the chance to talk to him about his revelations of almost twenty years ago and what he thinks now. Mainly because there's no way I'd have such a conversation on FB or in email these days. But when this whole story about election tampering came up I sat and re-read some of that stuff and it gave me the feeling that it was plausible.
In fact, with all the news reports and whatnot, it seemed to be pretty much a given. I'm not saying that's why Herself lost, I'm saying it seemed plausible that's why anyone would have lost.
This is the first place I've seen where people seemed to think it didn't happened.
So, now it's your turn. What do you think all this is about? Smoke Screen? Does anybody trust Putin? I'm not arguing either way. I'm just trying to gather info to help me figure out exactly why this POS is in the WH and how he got there.
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons - For thou art crunchy and good with ketchup
I blame Obama for Trump
if Obama had only.............................
Been white
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons - For thou art crunchy and good with ketchup
Me too and I still am
?????
I was finishing your...
You said "If Obama had only..."
So I said been white.
I know, even though I don't ask, the reason I get around here from Rump voters is they had to take murrika back after all the evil that ***** Muslim did.
Maybe I missed something.
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons - For thou art crunchy and good with ketchup
Ahh, I understand now
no, his race doesn't have anything to do with how I feel about his presidency. It's the things he did and didn't do that I have a big problem with.
He took people's hopes and dashed them. This is why I feel Hillary should be blaming him too for her loss. After his first term, people walked away from politics. They are probably the ones that stayed home and didn't vote. This is why I didn't.
I think that most of us don't believe that Russia had anything to do with the election because there hasn't been any proof of this. By blaming Russia and Wikileaks for hacking the DNC computers is ridiculous because some of us believe that Seth Rich gave them to Wikileaks and the further proof of that is by William Birney's (sp) showed that the information from DNC computers were leaked, not hacked. The FBI never had access to the computers and the only ones that are saying that Russia hacked them is Crowd (dang, my mind just went blank) and they are the ones saying that it was Russia. This company is a Ukraine company and anti Putin.
The idiotic Facebook ads excuse is beyond dumb. Who looks at a few ads and decides not to vote for the person they like? Besides, Zuck told congress that he didn't find any ads from Russia, but 3 months later after Obama told him what to look for, he then found them.
These are just a few reasons why I don't believe this.
This whole thing was started after Trump said "if Russia finds Hillary's emails..." That was supposed to be a joke.
One more thing, people make a big deal about Trump Jr. meeting with a Russian because she told him that she had dirt on Hillary. So what? This is how elections work.
Then we find out that the Steele dossier was funded by the DNC and Hillary's lawyers. This was the "golden showers" stuff about Trump.
It's okay for Hillary to try to find stuff on Trump, but he couldn't do the same thing?
my $.02.
You are free to believe anything you want here. We welcome opposing opinions, just do it respectfully. Notice that there is no FLAG option here?
Oh, I wasn't suggesting
that you didn't like him because he was black. That was just my sardonic Irish humor gene poking out of its hidey hole... again.
I had high hopes for Obama too. And I heard that he was a real tough customer. I know he came into office against a congress devoted to opposing his every move, but that excuse can only go so far. IMHO he could have fought a lot harder for the people who were counting on him. And I'll never forgive him - or the Dims - for the way they folded on health care.
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons - For thou art crunchy and good with ketchup
We were told he was the new Jackie Robinson
but he turned out to be the new Shoeless Joe Jackson.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
@TheOtherMaven Wish I
Wish I could give this a million thumbs up.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@Pariah Dog Well,
Well, actually he didn't come into a Congress hell-bent on opposing him.
He came into a Congress with a large Democratic majority in the House and a large Democratic majority in the Senate--for 4 1/2 months, a Democratic supermajority.
The years 2009-2010 seem to be disappearing from everyone's minds, as if the Tea Party took over the House the same year Obama entered office. This is not only not the case, it's plain ridiculous to think that the American people could put a Black Democrat into the Presidency with a 65% approval rating the same year they gave landslide victories to the (sadly, largely racist) Tea Party. And it's not just about race--electing Obama was a gesture of faith in government. The idea was that he would enter the Oval Office and bring the influences ravaging the country at least partially to heel, like FDR did, and use the power of government to bind up at least some of the wounds they had inflicted on the country, like FDR did. Even Republican voters--some of them--thought Obama would do this.
The Tea Party is a constructed movement with an anti-government ideology built by people like Dick Armey and other DC politicians, but it is also a movement which ordinary people joined with sincerity, because the Tea Party represented--to them--something they actually believed. So what is the origin of the populist support for the Tea Party? A profound lack of faith in government. A sense of profound betrayal.
These two things cannot dominate the public mind at the same time. They can both exist at the same time, because America is a large and diverse place. But they cannot be the dominant political force at the same time. And they weren't. Americans didn't put the Tea Party in power at the same time they put Obama in power; they finished giving control of Congress back to the Democrats, so Obama would be able to implement his policies--an understanding not out of the reach of even the least-informed voter.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal It's
It's really scary to me how we have successfully rewritten history that isn't even a decade old.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Pariah Dog
this article breaks down the Russia-gate theory pretty well. This is what I and the others are thinking about this crap.
How Russia-gate Rationalizes Censorship
I have no reason to prove a negative.
I have no reason to conjecture why Russiagate is even in the news. What I will do is this: If anybody can show specific evidence that Russia specifically influenced the election and got specific results, I will finally have reason to believe it.
Your turn.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Actually
That's what I was hoping the Mueller investigation would do - reveal the truth about all of this.
I know Americans of this age aren't the sharpest pencils in the box, but it just didn't seem logical that THAT many of them would fall for the crap that came from this horse's ass. I knew he was a self-absorbed jerk decades ago. Even the thug party got pale and sweaty over the prospect of him winning. And then..... Remember I said it just seemed plausible based on what this guy told me years ago.
Now though, it looks like this too will end up being just another BIG HORNKING NEWS CYCLE that will never be resolved to anyone's satisfaction. And we're stuck with another puppet of the 1%.
I like and admire the Russian people. I grew up schooled to live in fear and suspicion of them. The more I got to know, and know about, them the more I hoped they would throw off the oppression and achieve the sort of life they've so long struggled for. In '89 it looked like they were set to do it. I was disappointed when this guy told me what he did.
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons - For thou art crunchy and good with ketchup
So, the Mueller investigation
has not turned up anything prosecutable in re Russiagate. Either Mueller is a tool, a puppet of Putin's, or there just isn't anything to the whole Russiagate theory.
You are leaning towards a cover up of some sort, I am leaning towards the proposition there is nothing to cover up.
So far, there is more on my side than yours. Ironic that "there is no 'there' there" is the best evidence thus far, isn't it?
Putin is highly regarded in some countries, reviled in others. You can say that about any leader of any country.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
I'm not "leaning"
toward anything. You asked whatcha got, so I told you.
I believe I also said...
Oh yes, here it is - I'm not arguing either way. I'm just trying to gather info to help me figure out exactly why this POS is in the WH and how he got there.
thanatokephaloides just offered an answer that sounds reasonable. That's all I'm looking for.
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons - For thou art crunchy and good with ketchup
My problem with the Flynn thing
is that he was first being investigated for his contact with Russian officials, then we heard it was about his not registering as a foreign lobbyist which comes with heavy penalties, but now he pleads guilty for lying to the FBI? Shifting goal posts here. This is why John Podesta had to step down from his company too. He also didn't register as a foreign lobbyist. And from what I've read, his contact with Russian officials was after Trump won, so what's the problem?
Both Reagan and Obama had contact with foreign governments before they were elected. I wrote about Obama up thread.
There are too many inconsistencies with this year long investigation. The FBI also funded the Steele dossier along with Hillary. This was the reason for Obama getting a warrant to wiretap Trump. On false information.
Well...
I've seen the endless MSM stories about Trump for years now. I've always thought the guy was a scumbag, crooked as a dog's hing leg, and the most unabashed case of narcissistic personality disorder I've ever seen.
He simply has no business being in the oval office. After the two Bush "elections," believing that the thugs cheated was a no-brainer for me. Maybe that's why I so easily accepted the Russian story (plus what I'd been told back when).
I'd still love to see him get nailed for something. I have no doubt he's been involved in money-laundering for various unsavory characters for a long time. Did you ever see the piece the Financial Times did on his long history of curious cash infusions and questionable real estate deals?
All of what's been said here are things I kind of heard about but didn't focus on enough. As I said, life has been a maelstrom until recently, and I just didn't have the peace of mind to follow up on things like I used to.
Thanks to all for the additional info. Now, let's figure a way to rid ourselves of this moron and his party.
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons - For thou art crunchy and good with ketchup
@Pariah Dog Well, for one
Well, for one thing--
Imagine the American people as a bunch of people stranded on a desert island. They've been stranded there for quite a while. It's not that there's no food and water there, but supplies are running low, and nobody really wants to live on the desert island anyway--they want to get back to their old lives.
Somebody comes by in a boat and promises to take them off the island and get them back to civilization. How will they react?
Now, there are mitigating factors, obviously; first, the last guy to come by in a boat and promise rescue instead picked them up, took them on a 3-hour tour, and landed them right back at the island. Then, after having robbed them of their remaining valuables, he sailed off into the sunset, saying "You really shouldn't have expected so much of me."
Second, the last guy at least looked rational and smart. His speech to the islanders was inspiring and seemed designed to draw everybody together in a common purpose. Of course, that ended up all being bullshit, but at least he was using humanitarian language to bullshit the castaways. This guy is trying to pit some of the castaways against the others. He's quite upfront about wanting to leave some people behind.
Finally, the guy's mannerisms don't exactly inspire trust.
These three factors are likely to make a portion--perhaps a sizable portion--of the castaways refuse his offer. But is it really so surprising that 25-30% of them agreed?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
why this POS is in the White House
It (Russian meddling in the 2016 Presidential election) didn't happen, at least not at the prime cause level that Hillary Clinton and Co. would have us beLIEve it to be. "Russiagate" is a nothingburger.
As you said in an earlier Comment: "it's a given they did because our oligarchs and their oligarchs have been screwing the entire world for ages...". This level of interference is assumable, but it isn't "why this POS is in the White House".
So why is this POS in the White House?
Largely because Hillary Clinton's campaign team, acutely aware of how odious she was to large swathes of the Democratic Base, wanted to set up a walk-away election which would end in Her Coronation. So they set Donald Trump up to be the Republican candidate via the now notorious "pied piper strategy". What nobody figured on was Trump getting a significant number of votes anywhere; in reality, he won the Electoral College vote and therefore, the Presidency.
No Russian collusion required. Minor levels of collusion may have existed, but they had no impact on the final result.
And yes, Hillary Clinton still polled 3 million more votes than Donald Trump. But the way in which those votes appeared -- in large States where they made little difference in the election outcomes -- still meant the original "pied piper" plan failed. And that it's largely the fault of the Clinton campaign that Donald Trump is now President.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
While it may be true that Bill jollied Don along
…with the idea of running in that nightmarish group of Republican candidates, they could not know Trump would win. They could expect him to push the other candidates into horrible statements — and he really delivered. omg. But the Clintons did not expect Trump to win the primarys with his crude, outsider ways. They expected a much bloodied Republican politician to run against Hillary.
Hillary's campaign strategists had determined that the only way she could win the Primaries was to get rid of Sanders, who was the Democrat's designated Outsider. Her campaign calculated that once Sanders was gone, she would win the Primary and the Democrats would have no choice but to vote for Her in the General.
I think when the DNC got rid of Bernie, they still believed she would be running against a relatively sane Republican in the General. And then Trump won the GOP Primary.
The People had wanted an Outsider with new ideas. And that's what the Republican voters got. But the Democrats had failed and their Outsider lost.
It was at this point that Hillary's campaign made their fatal error. This was the decision that lost the election, and it debuted at the DNC Convention. Hillary's campaign decided to downplay all of the Issues and campaign on One Thing only: Hillary was not Donald Trump! As I've remarked many times, it was my first issue-free Presidential election.
Whenever Hillary was asked about an issue, she delivered a word salad. Whenever Trump was asked a question, he positioned himself slightly to the Left of Hillary. (And there was plenty of wide open space on Hillary's left.) The fans on both sides heard whatever they wanted to hear. The non fans who bothered to vote, voted third party or they cast a LOTE vote, or they voted to take a chance on the Outsider to bring some change to the status quo. The Outsider phenomenon was known before the general election, in part due to the Brexit vote earlier in the year. There were many people expecting this outcome. It was not hindsight; it was merely unreported.
As for the Russian Hoax (for lack of a better word), that decision was made in haste in early June. It began as a backfire against the stolen emails that would be fully released before the convention in late July. The smoke and fear from a "Russian hack" would confuse the issue and obscure the news. CrowdStrike (a Ukranian-owned, anti-Russian IT group) could see on the logs that they were downloaded in full on one occasion. They are smart enough to know the letters were downloaded at a speed that indicated a thumbdrive was used, inside DNC headquarters. But CrowdSource never discussed the forensics of the download. They buried it. It was discovered much later during independent third-party forensics.
So, unless Russian hackers flew over to the US and broke into the DNC with a thumb drive to capture the letters, they were not in possession of them at that time. Julian Assange was, however. The thumb drive was flown from DC to London by a British envoy, and delivered to the Ecuadorian embassy.
This is the evidence that can be verified.
How do you know this?
Scary comments here.
https://www.euronews.com/live
Testimony of the British courier.
Testimony of Assange.
It was reported in the press, most often in connection with the Seth Rich investigation, which is a forbidden news topic in the US.
Sorry then, it is beyond my capabilities
to follow and to understand and to remember the news I hear or read about. It's too much for me.
https://www.euronews.com/live
@mimi This is
This is particularly tangled. I've gotten it wrong myself, on here, and had to be corrected.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
DNC emails were leaked and then picked up
Is this what you are referring to, Pluto?
Craig Murray says source of Hillary Clinton campaign WikiLeaks emails a 'disgusted' Democrat - Washington Times
You wrote:
I've read this too. Hillary was concerned that the general election would focus on her use of her private email server and the Comey investigation. She thought that she shouldn't have to answer any question her about this. The bots on ToP are upset with Lauer and Charlie Rose because they asked her questions about them. This is further proof of misogyny in their minds. So the biggest story during the primaries was about how she was under FBI investigation because of her private email server and they think that she shouldn't have to answer questions about it? I'm sure if it had been Trump that had done this, they would want him to be questioned about it, right? sigh
Yes. There is some confusion about the timeline
….because the first leaks came from Guccifer 2 while CrowdStrike was working in DNC headquarters. Now there is some speculation that CrowdStrike invented Guccifer 2 because part of what Guccifer published was the opposition research on Donald Trump that the Clinton campaign had acquired. There is a period of time from April 15 to June 15 when everything happened. CrowdStrike was at the DNC, the hack was announced, the Russian connection was announced, Guccifer 2 took credit, all the emails written by the DNC staff during those two months was also stolen, Wikileaks claimed to be receiving them, and so much more.
For those who would like a more technical timeline
…be sure to bookmark Adam Carter's forensic timeline. The RussiaGate nonsense was thoroughly debunked over nine months ago by the cybersecurity elite.
But then, this isn't about Russian election meddling.
This is about a dying Empire thrashing about on the world stage.
@Pluto's Republic Seth Rich
Seth Rich was murdered--why? Seth Rich was murdered--why? Seth Rich was murdered--why?
Maybe I should post a full page of that on Facebook every day.
It's a bit like when people passed a law saying that doctors couldn't bring up the subject of abortion with their patients. I went around saying loudly ABORTION ABORTION ABORTION for some time. (I was young, but I didn't like gag orders, then or now.)
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I did a great deal of research on that
…for my own purposes, not for publication. It made me very uncomfortable. for me, it was a dead end. like many others, I dropped it.
@Pluto's Republic I bet. I
I bet. I spent a fair amount of time hoping what someone here, I think Alligator Ed, uncovered was wrong.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Did you check the link I sent above
To the timeline?
All the answers are there.
@Pluto's Republic Are you sure
Are you sure they didn't expect him to win the primary? I thought that was the Pied Piper strategy, in a nutshell--make sure a crazy extremist like Trump or Cruz won the Republican primary, so Hillary would have an easy ride into the WH.
It's the general election they didn't expect him to win, or that's what I thought.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
There, I speculate.
It was my impression, but it has meaning only against the backdrop of the Clintons encouraging him to run. They seemed so unprepared. How could they be so wrong about so many things at the same time?
@Pluto's Republic The fix was
The fix was in...they thought. Having Trump the extremist running against Hillary wasn't for the purposes of getting Hillary the votes necessary to win the election--she already knew she could win the election by cheating. That's why they were so confident in the face of even the worst statistics, most pessimistic data (pessimistic if you wanted Hillary to win). Trump and his extremism were supposed to create a plausible narrative which would make it impossible to question the fix.
They didn't consider that there were people who were prepared to engage in countermeasures on Election Night.
That's how I see it. That's how I think it must have been, unless someone can plausibly explain to me how, after Hillary 2016 demonstrated how many different kinds of fraud they were capable of doing without legal penalty (NY was the real tell on that one), they were forced in November to accept the results of an actual vote count. So far, I've found all explanations of why Hillary could and would cheat her way to the nomination, but had no power to cheat in the general, extremely unconvincing--for one thing, she's hand in glove with the Bushes, who had no problem cheating in the general, twice. Jeb Bush bailed her campaign out financially in April 2016. Did the Bushes' loyalty to her stick at lending her access to the technology and networks of people necessary to ensuring a win--which we damned well know they have?
I just don't see how, after 2000 and 2004, and after the Democratic primary of 2016, we can believe that actual vote counts are the primary driver of who gets into office. I think the vote counts are there to make the results look plausible--and they can fiddle around with the vote counts by various means, though clearly it's not as simple as just deciding on a number and rearranging the votes to match. I don't think things are quite centralized and controlled enough for them to do that, yet.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Domestic issues are not really my focus
I can see how the primaries were rigged. It's not all about vote counting. I was in a rigged state and saw it up close and personal.
In national elections, I am only interested in international observers and exit polls. Hillary was in my focus only because she was the Deep State candidate. She was the candidate of the Intelligence community, So, the overlap of the fake hack into the DNC, and the investigation into that is my key interest. The leaker (independent of the fake hack) was at the DNC with CrowdStrike in April, May and June. In the end, he copied all the emails sent out by key staffers during the time CrowdStrike fixed the "hack." Those emails were the most damning. The leaker was someone everyone knew and trusted.
But I don't even care who it was. I only care that all nations in the world receive the scientific evidence and understand that Russian Election Meddling is an ongoing false flag attack against Russia by the United States. It is my obligation to humanity to stop a nuclear war on the Planet of the Apes.
Okay, my bad then
Thank you.
Although I heard about those emails, I never took the time to read them, or any articles about what was in them. My only excuse is, 2008 - 2016 were not the best years of my life and I was distracted enough to only hit the high points.
For someone who had entered the year believing Bernie actually stood a good chance, I was dumbfounded at how things turned out. I started hearing about this Russian thing, I'd actually seen some of this stuff on FB, and remembered what my friend had said all those years ago. All that and the constant drumbeat just made it sound like a possible answer.
As I said originally, this is actually the first time I'd seen anyone saying it didn't happen.
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons - For thou art crunchy and good with ketchup
@Pariah Dog BTW, people's
BTW, people's vehemence on this subject is not personal, or about you; we're all just really irritated at the topic.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
So am I
And considering the whole debacle, it's understandable.
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons - For thou art crunchy and good with ketchup
@thanatokephaloides The original Pied
The original Pied Piper plan was one of the doofiest things to ever be invented in campaign politics.
I point that out, rather than its venomous levels of irresponsibility, because we've often talked here about the immorality of the strategy. I'm here to tell you, as someone who has worked in campaign politics, it's the doofiest goddamned strategy anybody has ever come up with, and the fact that it wasn't laughed out of the room of extremely highly-paid political consultants is pathetic, and slightly scary.
If you gave me 2 billion dollars in earned media, there's a good chance I could convince 20-25% of the American population that the moon was actually made of cheese.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@Pariah Dog It has nothing to do
It has nothing to do with trusting Putin.
It has to do with no evidence being supplied to support the claims. What has been published as evidence has either been a simple reassertion of claims without basis, or data so ridiculous that it practically argues for the other side--such as claims that "the hacker" used Cyrillic characters and called himself Felix Edmundovitch (the first Soviet security chief). That would be like a CIA agent who, while involved in hacking another country's election, called himself "J Edgar Hoover" and posted some additional material in which he ruminated on the Mariners' chances this year.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Asking to believe the ridiculous
Great point:
Or that the Russians knew that the Rust Belt states were in play and dispatched over a 1000 trolls/operators there--while every American pundit and Hillary's campaign missed it. Or that Steele could waltz into Moscow and discover state secrets about Trump literally within days (from intelligence agencies known to execute snitches). Or that generic FB issue ads not mentioning Trump or Hillary would cause instant vote changes for Trump. Or that the Russians could change votes of machines not tied into the Internet while only being on the Internet.
@MrWebster Oh God. It's
Oh God. It's worse than I thought.
I checked out fairly early, a few weeks after "Reality Winner" revealed an insider document which consisted of the NSA telling itself what it believed, again with no evidence. I wasn't really sure why the NSA objected to having the document leaked, since it contained no data--I don't just mean no raw data; I mean no data-- but I was pretty sure, after several months of receiving the same kind of nothingness, or at best hogwash, that nothing better was on the way.
I didn't know the FB scandal was about issue ads with no mention of Hillary or Trump. Agh.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Here are points from FB press release.
Link to FB blog on it:
https://newsroom.fb.com/news/2017/09/information-operations-update/
@MrWebster Uh...in
Uh...in other words they're talking about FB ads on, uh, issues people disagree on? Or, at most, trollish FB ads?
WTFF, man. This is almost as bad as PropOrNot.
Or listening to Feinstein and, was it Grassley? revitalizing the glorious legacy of Joe McCarthy.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Because the American people continue to consent to being
governed under a political system that presents us with such choices as Clinton vs Trump, as well as a political system that mandates one person to be president of the United States.
It goes beyond what Clinton did or Trump did or who did what to the larger problem of this political system.
People have got to start accepting that this system has to be changed.
@Big Al Bingo.
Bingo.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Amen to that
I'm so tired of being forced to choose between the lesser of two pre-chosen evils. Yet my upbringing prevents me from staying home.
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons - For thou art crunchy and good with ketchup
The evidence points to it not happening.
Glenn Greenwald's position has been for awhile that the evidence presented by the government is not conclusive. But yes, it could have happened, but no proof just yet. I think enough time has passed with attempts at providing evidence by government leakers to conclude that there is not one shred of credible evidence. When "evidence" is presented, we are expected to leave even the smallest of incredulity and doubt. We are expected to blindly believe the anonymous leakers without one shred of presented evidence even after each anon revelation has been debunked such as the lie that Russians invaded Vermont's poower grid, or see following:
Yet Another Major Russia Story Falls Apart. Is Skepticism Permissible Yet?
https://theintercept.com/2017/09/28/yet-another-major-russia-story-falls...
Unless many pieces of real evidence appear from credible sources, I don't think the Russians interfered. Having worked many elections inside polling places (and outside), the reality is that the only people who can flip an election are inside the system. Democrats thoroughly believe that Russians flipped votes and did other nefarious shit.
At the time of the invasion of Iraq, the majority of Americans believed Saddam had WNDs. Two days after the invasion of Iraq, Gallup found that 70% of the American people thought the invasion was justified. Russia = Saddam's WNDs.
For the record
I was not among them.
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons - For thou art crunchy and good with ketchup
@Pariah Dog I totally
I totally believe that. You probably wouldn't be here if you were.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
The one thing
that amazed me about that was, as time went on they didn't (ahem) "find" any.
Oversight? Poor planning? Just plain stupid?
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons - For thou art crunchy and good with ketchup
@Pariah Dog What stands
What stands out for me was the video segment of George W Bush looking under the desk for them. That's the elites' idea of comedy.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
they were very small, is why.
@on the cusp I love you, cusp.
I love you, cusp.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I felt that hug!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
So what is up with this guy Peter Strzok?
He was removed from Mueller's team because he was found to have bias against Trump through some text messages to his mistress. Sounds like deep state shenanigans in the back rooms of DC. He is being described as an "agent" by NYTimes. But he was the asst. head of the FBIs counterintelligence group. He was no mere agent. And how in the hell did his text messages get intercepted? Who is secretly tapping somebody extremely high up the FBI food chain? Its like watching a scoreboard with scores but not one team name listed.
Here's the story on Strzok
House Republicans prepare contempt action against FBI, Department of Justice
Because Trump has plausible deniability
...(aka he can't remember shit so how can he collude) I don't think the Dems will get him. But lotsa folks been doing lotsa lying and as we all know, that can get you time in the pokey. For example, everyone in Trumpland was denying they ever talked to Russia, ever ! Now they are all saying well ok maybe a little, but not about anything important.
How is everyone here so convinced Trumpeters didn't ask Russia for a quid pro quo before inauguration? A compelling case for obstruction is easy to present or even fabricate, but I doubt Trump will get charged.
For some reason, people here start with actual evidence
…of a reality, and then they discuss it thoroughly.
If you find any evidence — even a tiny shred — pass it on. No one entertains circumstantial allegations much around here, although they are free to. Actual scientific evidence, real verifiable evidence is a lot more interesting. Any factual evidence at all that can justify the rumor-based nuclear holocaust that we are hurtling toward would be most welcome.
Because you would think
#1) that some evidence would have turned up by now.
#2) that Russia doesn't have the kind of power to throw a U.S. election.
#3) there are all sorts of more logical reasons for how things turned out.
You would think.
Period.
Number 3 for sure
I would edit your number three as:
#3) there are all sorts of more logical and simpler reasons for how things turned out.
up
@Pluto's Republic
If they're going to start prosecuting politicians for making shady quid pro quo deals with foreign businessmen--or even foreign states--they'd better clear out the court dockets at all levels.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
"or even fabricate"?
You hate Trump so much you think a fabricated story is justified to get him out of office?
After all, it is "easy".
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
@on the cusp Don't know if
Don't know if Blueslide meant that, but, from one perspective, what the hell, we're so deep in lies already, what's one more? As a Hillary supporter said to me on Twitter about the Dolores Huerta "English Only" brouhaha, "It doesn't matter what's true. The story's out there now."
Thing is, that's what this lifeboat is for: to retain some space where it does matter.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
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