What is Russia being blamed for now?

russia_0.jpg
According to what I've been reading, there is no minutia in America today that Russia can't be blamed.

George Takei is blaming all the attention being given to the sexual assault allegations against him on Russian bots.
On Friday, former model Scott R. Brunton accused the “Star Trek” legend of sexually assaulting him in 1981.
Instead, on Monday, Takei suggested via two tweets that Russian bots were responsible for amplifying the story.
The reason? Takei thinks it’s because he has criticized Vladimir Putin’s anti-LGBT policies, according to Towleroad.com.
One tweet that showed a chart of Russian bot activity read:

“A friend sent me this. It is a chart of what Russian bots have been doing to amplify stories containing the allegations against me. It’s clear they want to cow me into silence, but do not fear friends. I won’t succumb to that.”

I've got nothing against Takei, but this is just silly.
But let's not stop there.
Do you care about the end of Net Neutrality? Blame Russia.

The FCC said the majority of suspicious activity on its comment process were from those supporting the Obama-era rules, including 7.5 million copies of another form message it said came from a fake email generator and 400,000 comments in support of net neutrality came from one address in Russia. A conservative group, the National Legal and Policy Center, found 1.3 million came from addresses in France, Russia and Germany and suspicious Internet domains after it analyzed the public comments, according to Fortune.

So what does Russia want here? What Verison wants.

But Internet providers have also spent significant time and money lobbying for the regulations to be reversed. And some of the public comments, critics say, bear a striking resemblance to industry talking points.
“It was particularly chilling to see these spam comments all in one place, as they are exactly the type of policy arguments and language you expect to see in industry comments on the proposed repeal,” said Jeff Kao, a data scientist who published a study of the pro-repeal comments Thursday, in a blog post.

What a coincidence!
Russia is everywhere.

HAVING a bad day? Things not working out the way you expected? Everything getting on top of you?
I’ll tell you who’s to blame for that — it’s the bloody Russians. They’re to blame for everything.
This seems to be the view of our Prime Minister, Theresa May. In a speech where she pretended, unsuccessfully, to sound a bit like Margaret Thatcher.
She told Russian leader Vladimir Putin: “We know what you’re up to.”
I bet that made him quake.
According to May, the Russians are “sowing discord” in our country.

It isn't just Britain.

In a remarkable one-two punch aimed at Russian hackers, bots and trolls, the prime ministers of Britain and Spain have separately accused Russian entities — including some allegedly supported by the state — of meddling in European elections and have vowed to foil them.
Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said Tuesday that an “avalanche” of bots spread “fake news” about Spain during Catalonia’s independence referendum last month and that Spanish authorities think that more than half of the originating accounts are in Russian territory.

Brexit? Russia.
Catalonia? Russia.
Someone plugged up the toilet? Russia.
Capitalism Collapsing from Inequality... Blame Russia!

russia2.jpg

It doesn't stop there. Venezuela was involved too.

They believe that Russian interests were involved in pro-Catalonian independence efforts in the weeks prior to the referendum. They stated that “’Propaganda campaigns’ intended to destabilize Spain came from Russian territory and Venezuela.” The Spanish admitted that they were not certain if the troll accounts operating within Russian and Venezuelan borders were agents of either government, though they still suspect a level of foul play. These propaganda efforts seem to have been directed against pro-unity interests, spreading false information that the Spanish government and the European Union were preparing to go to war in the region.
... More recently, President Obama intervened in at least 6 foreign elections to some degree. Election meddling isn’t new, while it might not be morally sound, it’s politics as usual.

I think I'm going to get out ahead of this trend.
From now on I'm blaming everything on Russia too.
Heartburn? Over-weight? Tired? Poor? Unhappy?
It's all Russia's doing.

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WoodsDweller's picture

400,000 comments in support of net neutrality came from one address in Russia. ... 1.3 million came from addresses in France, Russia and Germany and suspicious Internet domains

I don't suppose those "suspicious domains" were anomymizers by any chance? That people concerned enough with net neutrality to comment might routinely take basic precautions?

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"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone

@WoodsDweller
for a spammer to fake his/her origin.
Therefore you must be a Putin Puppet.

/s

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@WoodsDweller arrived from France Russia etc where were they?
Isn't what a Proxy setting in a browser or email is for is to hide your location? And aren't most set up to use proxies as a default? I'm asking, but I think that's the case.
Whatever, certainly people in authority would lie their ass off, er I mean, NEVER lie about things affecting how we do things.

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Orwell: Where's the omelette?

@jim p
However, that doesn't mean much.
I personally have an email address in Switzerland. That must mean I'm Swiss.

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Arrow's picture

@gjohnsit and I'm shopping for a domain as well.
May as well be russiandupe.eu .

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I want a Pony!

divineorder's picture

@WoodsDweller Hope NY AG gets some traction...

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

@WoodsDweller
As soon as net neutrality is crushed, anonymizers are next. I bet I get a bonus. (They don't pay much for hanging out around here. The big bucks go to the thread hijackers, and you can't start fights here by flagging people. I asked for TOP but there was a waiting list.)

Or would it be smarter for the gov't to set up a couple of anonymizers that look good (open source and located in Latvia etc.) one for an average monthly rate and one free, and have people come to them. They could sell the info to Google. It might even turn a profit.

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WoodsDweller's picture

@FuturePassed
Won't happen, because they are a surveillance tool. I don't trust any of them, the server logs contain the actual IP you used (they have to, eventually the traffic needs to make it back to your machine). I bet 99% of them are honey pots. The only way to work it is to use one that whoever is watching you doesn't have access to - for someone in the US it might be, oh I don't know, Russia. Russian law enforcement can certainly get the logs, but are less likely to share with western agencies. If you bounce back and forth a few times there's a good chance they won't take the trouble to match them up. Not unless you are actually a bandito. Even then, jumping to another jurisdiction can break the chain.
So things in the US seem to be coming from Russia, I suppose things in Russia seem to be coming from the US.

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"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone

Remember when Putin started importing vodka to the US?

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Orwell: Where's the omelette?

@jim p
I plan on drinking tonight. It's Putin's fault.

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snoopydawg's picture

Yep, Russia. The way you laid this out just makes me wonder again how people can be this stupid?
BTW, those of us who were either banned or left on our own were probably Russian bots too during the primary.
One of the old timers on DK asked kos if he checked to see if DK had been infiltrated by them. Guess how many recs he got on this comment? Over 100.

IMG_0970_1.JPG

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Voting is like driving with a toy steering wheel.

Steven D's picture

@snoopydawg was that MFing stupid.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9PNoecNxU]

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"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott

divineorder's picture

@Steven D I liked the characters played by Freeman, loved that voice. Too bad he pissed all over his memory with this.

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

@Steven D
Which gives you the misleading impression that he's smart.

Sort of like how Obama was a fantastic speaker, leaving you with the impression that he wasn't full of sh*t.

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snoopydawg's picture

@Steven D

for this saying. Another one bites the dust.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Voting is like driving with a toy steering wheel.

@Steven D I am not stupid. I just haven't found time to clean the corn-pipes and cob-webs out!

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@Steven D

h/t at snoopydawg

I did the "wait a minute" doubletake.

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edg's picture

The toilet seat was left up the other day and my wife started yelling at me until I pointed out it was all part of Putin's plot to sow discord in American powder rooms.

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@edg

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I don't even get the theory. Since they've said that no voting machines were hacked, is the theory that Russian propaganda was so powerful that it hypnotized people into not voting for Hillary?
There's not even a solid theory on how Russia could have affected the outcome of the election.
They think the American people are stupid (and the stupid does burn), but I still have hope that they're not THAT stupid.

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Mike Taylor

snoopydawg's picture

@Mike Taylor

they saw a headline that said unequivocally that Russia hacked 21 states voting machines and other headlines that accused Russia of doing, but inside the articles there's a statement saying that Russia attempted, but none were.

Obama himself said that there was no evidence that Russia hacked into voting machines, but people have already made up their minds.
Remember that Hillary stated over and over that all 17 intelligence agencies agree that Russia interfered with the election, while it's really only Brennan and Clapper that are saying that.

Then there's the Facebook ads that congress has made a big stink over. Obama had to help Zuck find the ads that made people vote for Trump instead of Hillary, even though most of them came out after the election was over.
I think it's that people believe what they want to believe, facts be damned.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Voting is like driving with a toy steering wheel.

@snoopydawg Exactly right. Obama declared the election valid. And then the deep state actors began pushing anon leaks implying that the voting machines were directly hacked. Only problem there was state election commissioners said bullshit. And then, that is when the themes of creating discord came onto the propaganda table as it were. It is an evolving and reactive set of themes and counter-themes.

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snoopydawg's picture

@MrWebster
and the most interesting thing is about this is that Obama started pushing this 5 months before the election took place!!
This happened after the military buildup around Russia. This is being spread for various reasons. One is to censor alternative websites.
The Washington Post called 10 popular leftist websites propaganda sites. This article is long because it takes apart this Russian narrative that the PTB have been pushing on us for over two years. It talks about how people used to think that the media was not trustworthy as well as the intelligence agencies. But for some reason, people are believing both.

Hope people will read this. Send it to your friends and family that have drunk the koolaid.

Why we need independent media..to protect us from the fake mainstream media

The real purpose of the Russian scare..to restrict free speech

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Voting is like driving with a toy steering wheel.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@MrWebster In amongst those claims of hacking was one, little regarded, that said that the purported hacking was done through a DHS server.

It's interesting that that particular claim hasn't been pushed like the others.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal @Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

I also do recall that several State Secretaries of State said that scans of electoral computers were traced back to Department of Homeland Security after their turning down DHS requests for them to run State voting infrastructure, but seem to recall that other States agreed to this and claimed scanning attempts from 'other causes'.

https://sfcmac.wordpress.com/2017/01/13/hacking-of-georgia-secretary-of-...

Hacking of Georgia Secretary of State’s Computers Traced Back to Department of Homeland Security

Posted 13/01/2017 by sfcmac in Government Corruption. Tagged: DHS hacks Georgia Secretary of State. 2 Comments

From WSBTV

The Georgia Secretary of State’s Office now confirms 10 separate cyberattacks on its network were all traced back to U.S. Department of Homeland Security addresses.

In an exclusive interview, a visibly frustrated Secretary of State Brian Kemp confirmed the attacks of different levels on his agency’s network over the last 10 months. He says they all traced back to DHS internet provider addresses.

“We’re being told something that they think they have it figured out, yet nobody’s really showed us how this happened,” Kemp said. “We need to know.”

Kemp told Channel 2’s Aaron Diamant his office’s cybersecurity vendor discovered the additional so-called vulnerability scans to his network’s firewall after a massive mid-November cyberattack triggered an internal investigation.

The Secretary of State’s Office manages Georgia’s elections, and most concerning for Kemp about the newly discovered scans is the timing.

The first one happened on Feb. 2, the day after Georgia’s voter registration deadline. The next one took place just days before the SEC primary. Another occurred in May, the day before the general primary, and then two more took place in November, the day before and the day of the presidential election.

“It makes you wonder if somebody was trying to prove a point,” Kemp said.

Last week, the DHS confirmed the large Nov. 15 attack traced back to a U.S. Customs and Border Protection internet gateway. But Kemp says the DHS’ story about its source keeps changing.

“First it was an employee in Corpus Christi, and now it’s a contractor in Georgia,” Kemp said. ...

...The DHS claims that “there was no attempt to hack into the state’s election computer system, but did acknowledge an agency employee left an electronic paper trail that might make it appear something nefarious was afoot.”

Obviously the trail left behind told a different story.

http://wbaa.org/post/secretary-state-department-homeland-security-hacked...

Secretary of State: Department of Homeland Security 'Hacked' Indiana Electoral System
By Stephanie Wiechmann • Feb 24, 2017

Indiana’s Secretary of State says the federal Department of Homeland Security accessed the state’s electoral system without Indiana’s permission before and after November’s presidential election.

Indiana Public Broadcasting’s Stephanie Wiechmann reports.
Listen

In an article in The Daily Caller – a news website founded by Fox News personality Tucker Carlson – Indiana Secretary of State Connie Lawson says officials with the federal agency scanned the state’s electoral system nearly 15,000 times.

The scans came between November 1 of last year - before the November 8 presidential election – and through December 16.

Secretary of State spokesperson Valerie Warycha on Thursday confirmed Lawson’s statements, saying DHS IP addresses – those string of numbers that identify a computer to other computers – were scanning the state system without permission.

Lawson told The Daily Caller that the DHS scans, which she called “hacking attempts” did not breach Indiana’s voter registration system.

She says one election website was penetrated, but she called it old and out-of-date.

Indiana is not the only state to make such a claim.

Georgia Secretary of State Brian Kemp has asked the DHS Inspector General to investigate unauthorized scans of that state’s electoral system. And Idaho Secretary of State Lawerence Denney says DHS may have also tried to hack Idaho’s system around November 8. ...

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/russia-department-homeland-security/

As Feds Continue to Blame Russia, Indiana Officials Expose DHS in Massive 2016 Election Hack
By
Jack Burns

There's no article on the page but it links to (emphasis mine):

http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/21/exclusive-obamas-feds-tried-to-hack-in...

Daily Caller News Foundation

EXCLUSIVE: Obama’s Feds Tried to Hack Indiana’s Election System While Pence Was Governor

Richard Pollock
Reporter

Department of Homeland Security (DHS) officials tried to hack Indiana’s state electoral system with at least 14,800 “scans” or hits between Nov. 1, 2016, to Dec. 16, 2016, The Daily Caller News Foundation Investigative Group has learned.

The attacks are the second confirmed IT scanning assault by DHS officials against states that resisted then-President Barack Obama’s attempt to increase federal involvement in state and local election systems by designating them as “critical infrastructure” for national security.

Members of the National Association of Secretaries of State voted Saturday at their winter meeting to oppose the designation. They are asking President Donald Trump to overturn it. (RELATED: State Officials Want Trump To Reverse Obama’s Last-Minute Election Power Grab)

Former Indiana Gov. Mike Pence was also Trump’s vice presidential-elect during much of the period covered by the DHS scans of the Indiana system.

Indiana Secretary of State Connie Lawson, the incoming president of the association, told TheDCNF Tuesday that, “we know that between November 1 and December 16 we were scanned with about 14,800 scans, nearly 15,000 different times.”

The state’s IT team traced the intruder to a DHS computer’s IP address. The same DHS unit attempted 10 times in 2016 to hack into the Georgia electoral system.

Federal officials are barred under DHS rules from trying to penetrate a state system without the express approval of the state. Neither Georgia nor Indiana approved the DHS scanning attempts.

The DHS inspector general has launched an official investigation into the Georgia breach attempt.

Thomas Vessely, IT director for the Indiana secretary of state, told TheDCNF that “we kindly declined [DHS] assistance because we were very comfortable in the work we were doing in monitoring our election system.”

Lawson said she “always assumed it was because I was the incoming President of the National Association of Secretaries of State and because we declined their assistance.”

Georgia Secretary of State Brian Kemp told TheDCNF Jan. 24, 2016, he was suspicious because four of the 10 attacks against the Georgia election network occurred as he was about to talk to DHS officials, or coincided with his public testimony opposing the critical infrastructure designation.

“It’s certainly concerning about the dates,” Kemp said.

Kemp hopes the IG can determine if the hacks were timed to intimidate him. ...

(Emphasis mine.)

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/08/15/readout-secretary-johnsons-call-stat...

Archived Content

In an effort to keep DHS.gov current, the archive contains outdated information that may not reflect current policy or programs.
Readout of Secretary Johnson's Call with State Election Officials on Cybersecurity

Release Date:
August 15, 2016

For Immediate Release
DHS Press Office
Contact: 202-282-8010

Today, Secretary of Homeland Security Jeh Johnson hosted a phone call with members of the National Association of Secretaries of State (NASS) and other Chief Election Officials to discuss the cybersecurity of the election infrastructure. It is critically important to continue to work to ensure the security and resilience of our electoral infrastructure, particularly as the risk environment evolves. Representatives from the U.S. Election Assistance Commission, the Department of Commerce's National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST), and the Department of Justice (DOJ) also participated in the call.

During today's call, Secretary Johnson offered assistance in helping state officials manage risks to voting systems in each state's jurisdiction. While DHS is not aware of any specific or credible cybersecurity threats relating to the upcoming general election systems, Secretary Johnson reiterated that DHS, the Election Assistance Commission, NIST, and DOJ are available to offer support and assistance in protecting against cyber attacks. He also recognized the important work already being done in the states to ensure the integrity and security of the nation's elections. Secretary Johnson further emphasized that DHS is exploring all ways to deliver more support to the sector in a collaborative and non-prescriptive manner, and would be examining whether designating certain electoral systems as critical infrastructure would be an effective way to offer this support.

As part of the ongoing effort, the Secretary also announced that DHS is convening a Voting Infrastructure Cybersecurity Action Campaign with experts from all levels of government and the private sector to raise awareness of cybersecurity risks potentially affecting voting infrastructure and promote the security and resilience of the electoral process. Representatives of the National Association of Secretaries of State were invited to join this group to provide their expertise and input.

Secretary Johnson encouraged state officials to focus on implementing existing recommendations from NIST and the EAC on securing election infrastructure, such as ensuring that electronic voting machines are not connected to the internet while voting is taking place.

Secretary Johnson offered the assistance of the Department's National Cybersecurity and Communications Integration Center (NCCIC) to conduct vulnerability scans, provide actionable information, and access to other tools and resources for improving cybersecurity.

It's taken me all evening (longer, actually, to wait for pages to load after often multiple attempts (with 'high-speed' internet providing apparently 0.35 MPBS according to a speed test finally loaded after multiple attempts and well worth my roommate's money, I'm sure) so what I've managed to get to will have to do, lol - but obviously, 'the Devil Russians!!! made him do it', so It's All Their Fault.

Going to hope that this didn't go through over the past... half hour? since I first tried to post this, but sorry if it duplicates...

Edit: and of course I didn't notice that I'd failed to press a letter hard enough in my addendum above until after pressing Save again - but on the other hand, that would have been why it went through. Probably thought I was an im-poster without some form of traditional typo being present... and I must have used up my bolding allowance as none of that line of options is showing?

Now to see if this will go through, lol.

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Ellen North This is amazing, Ellen! You did what I, in my laziness, failed to do, and greatly to my benefit.

I feel I should start keeping a digital commonplace book of instances like this, because I'm always scratching my head and saying to myself "Didn't this thing happen and wasn't it reported somewhere some time ago...?"

Thank you so much for your hard work.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Mike Taylor

I still have hope that they're not THAT stupid.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Mike Taylor The serious part of this is that they are attempting to criminalize, or turn into treason, political campaigning (at least campaigning against an establishment-backed candidate).

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

No turning back to rationality for awhile. Brazile even got the treatment as she fell for Russian propaganda according to Clinton loyalists. But what propaganda as Brazile said alot of shit? That Hillary's staff was arrogant and utterly incompetent? The Russian shit will probably do more political damage to democrats than republicans. The early signs are that establishment democrats will use the Russian dupe charge against progressives going into the primaries.

George's comments really show up the utter arrogance in believing that Putin would actually give a personally fuck about what George said about gay rights in Russia. But this egotistic view is American exceptionalism.

The only problem course is this joke can turn into a serious military confrontation which is where it seems to be going.

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SnappleBC's picture

@MrWebster

The Russian shit will probably do more political damage to democrats than republicans.

In my mind, RussiaGate is what labels the Democratic party as the party willing to court global thermonuclear annihilation in order to score some cheap political points. Unless and until they come up with some actual evidence, I have them as the party of utter lunatics. They've placed a lot of political capital on the RussiaGate bet. I'm wondering how they think it'll pay out.

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A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard

dervish's picture

@SnappleBC that it's already been proven that Russia stole the election, just like it's been proven that Saddam had WMDs apparently.

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"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."

ggersh's picture

“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.”
― Joseph Goebbels

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I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish

"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"

Heard from Margaret Kimberley

@ggersh But it seems as time goes on the russian plot is getting too complicated with too many moving parts to sustain a political propaganda campaign aimed at the mass of people.

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SnappleBC's picture

@MrWebster

So far I haven't been able to discern ANY moving parts. What, exactly, is the charge being leveled in #RussiaGate? It started out as hacking the DNC and it's morphed into... something. To my eye it's a nebulous cloud of fear. There are no moving parts because there is nothing inside of it.

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A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard

Shahryar's picture

it probably would have been a shutout. Even Hillary would have voted for Trump.

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dervish's picture

@Shahryar

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"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@dervish No way. Can you imagine what it's like to live with her after losing?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Shahryar's picture

it probably would have been a shutout. Even Hillary would have voted for Trump.

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mimi's picture

Russia's bull shits and American's dumb shits all the time.

Sorry ... but can we get something different for breakfast on Sunday mornings? How about ...

[video:www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb-B3lsgEfA&list=RDotAu5twqDpk&index=3]
[video:https://youtu.be/ZAam1kDx1ow]
Italian Amore
[video:https://youtu.be/g-gh2hIRhkc]
French savoir vivre
[video:https://youtu.be/Tdg-DT8rTUQ]
German Passions ...

With apologies to the music connaisseurs on this site, I blame my Russian curseor for the picks ... Wink

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mimi's picture

@mimi
complaint of your essay. I value your work here a lot. Sometimes I need to distract myself to not get all "down" and then comes out some more silly comment.

No offense to you and yes, let's have peace and love. Smile

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@mimi
Don't sweat it

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

We want credit for our work, dammit!

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver