Unanswered questions
Folks, I'm not seeing a lot of point to all this discussion unless we can get some real answers. I mean, why bother?
1) Is anything about the American political scene going to change? Everyone worries that "Trump is our face to the world," but maybe he ought to be. Y'all read William Blum? America maintains wars every day because the war corporations always need the money, and keeps the fossil-fuel-burning deadliness in business because the folks in power don't want to waste "value," and yet nobody can figure a better way of business. So everyone continues to pretend it's about the public image of the President or whatever. I mean, so far the answer is "no," but, you know, after four or eight years we'll get a Democrat in the White House, everyone will go back to ignoring stuff, and I'll still be waiting for the answer to change to "yes."
2) Is education obsolete? Education "innovators" these days are busy finding new ways to circumvent institutions, and the folks who go into hock for at least five figures to get degrees so they can qualify for tepid job markets will ALL be looking to do some circumventing. At some point the corporations will not want to be in business helping folks like Pearson suck down money, and so they will set up their own "credentialing" franchises. If you can prove that you know how to do the job, you'll get the job regardless of how you learned how to do it, and the education corporations (and by extension the teachers and professors) will have priced themselves out of the business. Speaking as a professor, I really don't know why anyone would want to hire the likes of me in a decade or so. And the public schools? "Online schooling" will replace them. It's not as if teaching and learning are bad things, I suppose, if we're going to continue to have human societies in the future (and right now we're short a motive for doing that, even). But commodities disappear if nobody is willing to pay for them, and the teacher-as-commodity might just disappear pretty soon. You could probably program a sophisticated computer to teach online.
3) Where is this big technological fix that will solve the climate change problem? Supposedly we're all dying in "fireball Earth" when the methane clathrates go up in a big... well, fireball (so maybe my word choice needs more variety!), yet nobody wants to do anything about the fossil fuel industry and the Earth's atmosphere accumulates 2.3 ppm of carbon dioxide every year (or is it 2.77 ppm?) and then of course if we kill off the oceans (acidification y'know) it gets much worse. You'd think there'd be panic in the streets. And then it occurred to me: y'all waiting for the techno-gods to come down from the sky with a solution. So where's this solution? Certainly something must be on the books by now. But what if there's nothing there, or if nobody's looking because there's no profit in it?
4) What is the size of the American micro-Left? I get a lot of push-back whenever I mention that America has no Left, but it's mostly from people who say that "America has a Left because I say so." I'd like to see some documentation. Let's start with the 2016 Presidential election, in which 1% of the voters chose an actual Left candidate. 1%! Woot! Woot! Seriously -- if you can find a "Left" that hasn't been co-opted to death by the Democratic Party or its attendant Veal Pen non-governmental institutions, then let's see its documentation. How many people participate? What's the extent of their participation? And if it's as big as you say it is, maybe they can come down here to the wastelands between LA and Riverside and do some organizing? I look out my window every morning and see a public that doesn't believe in politics except maybe as an avenue for the well-connected to become even moreso.
5) Why do y'all continue to believe in money and property so fervently? As Yuval Noah Harari points out in "Sapiens" (here's a mini-version of the chapter in question), "value" as embedded in the economy is all wrapped up in our trust in the future. But is the future set in stone? Yeah I didn't think so.
6) What's the big thing about lawnmowers and leaf-blowers and weed-whackers? Y'all really into noise pollution and monoculture?
So yeah I have questions, and until some solid, trustworthy answers start to appear, it's looking really quiet, except of course for all the noise pollution. As for the audience for c99% in general, here are the statistics. So let's just continue to go along for the ride. It is, after all, just a ride.
Comments
Are we talking about solid
Are we talking about solid answers from the people here, or just in general from society?
If you are asking about from here, well I may try my hand I suppose.
3) This is sadly quite a large issue regarding climate change but also an issue of people's knowledge and reactions.
With people we have:
We have folks who just don't believe it is a thing. It's a Chinese conspiracy, general conspiracy, NASA conspiracy, liberal conspiracy. No problems there.
We then have folks who have no idea what is going on. You talk to them about ocean acidification and they have no idea what that means.
We also have folks who at least accept the issue of climate change, but well their response is tepid and weak. It's a problem but no worries, we got like lots of time man.
We then also have folks that you mentioned. Climate change is an issue, but well man will have a super fix--a technological marvel, don't you worry.
And finally, you have the folks who see it as a major issue that not only needs to be addressed in drastic measures right now, it should have been addressed decades ago.
I guess overall I'm not certain if you are addressing these questions to us or to society in general.
Well clearly I'm addressing c99%
since I posted it here. But yeah I'd like to have a bigger audience.
“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris
And some of the answers --
are going to come from experts.
“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris
I use a manual blade mower, a
regular leaf rake, and clippers for my yard work. So does my son at his house. I know plenty of people who do that. I'm only hung up on my property as a place to live, and a place for my children and grandchildren to live.
Relative to the left, depends on your definition. My definition doesn't necessarily include those that voted in the last corrupt and fraudulent election, even for Jill Stein. So how big is the "real" left? Hard to say, let's just say it's real small.
As for C99, ya, it is what it is. I think most people here are democrats or former democrats who feel spurned by the democratic party and Daily Kos and would rather rail on them than on seeking solutions. That plays out in the diaries that get the most recs, they're either about Daily Kos or the democratic party in some way. That also plays out in the blog statistics, the swings of which are clearly tied to Daily Kos. So the blog got a whole bunch of Kos refugees, mostly Bernie supporters who have now gone back to Daily Kos, which is what most Bernie supporters simply were and are, democrats.
Personally, I've put forth my opinion on what should be done and what should not be done. That's why I've stopped writing, I've got nothing else to say. I'm trying to find an outlet that seeks to overthrow the criminal ruling class that enslaves all of us. That's where I'm at and where I'm staying til I'm out.
An interesting but unproven theory
Really, now have most of the c99ers who became inactive really headed back to the pig pen? I'd like some proof of that. My guess is that most of the absent c99 former members have simply said fuck it, this makes no sense (a sort of answer to point number 1), so that they have tuned out entirely. After all, it's really too damn painful to keep bashing your head against a wall.
@Alligator Ed Speaking Strictly For
Speaking Strictly For Myself
I ran out of gas after the election. It was a bit demoralizing to see how whacko Trump turned out to be. I knew he would be horrible, but Geezus who could have known he'd be this bad.
Been spending more time working on my neglected hobby website.
Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.
@Citizen Of Earth After the past
After the past election (where I did not vote for rhe first timesince 1972) I have been concentrating on getting my heartbeats under 120. For realz. Still read, try to never comment. Ommmmm
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.
That Reagan era song, "Proud To Be An American"
Has been going through my head all morning. Sometimes I substitute the word "embarrassed" for "proud". I went to a Reagan rally in San Diego in 1984 and Wayne Newton sang the song before he introduced Reagan. When Reagan was giving his speech, a lone "commie, tree-hugging, liberal" starting yelling questions and then a whole bunch of older people around him started hitting him with the toy American flags that were given out.
Beware the bullshit factories.
Perhaps it's just me...
I don't participate in and contribute to c99 as much as I'd like because of its ongoing performance issues. About half the time when I navigate to the site, it takes 60 seconds or more to load. I usually give up. Posting comments and essays is still kinda hit or miss. My opinion, and I base this on my 40+ years as a computer nerd, is that the site won't gain and keep traction until all performance issues are resolved and this site is fast and reliable 24/7.
Have you referred your problem to JtC?
Yes. n/t
Revolution
You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan.
I read you regularly and I share your frustration. I've heard you list all the things that won't work, regularly, but apparently I missed the essays where you say what will work and how you'll get enough people behind these ideas.
That''s the thing, the only solution
is Revolution. That's what I've said many times. It might sound too simplistic, too difficult, too whatever. But it's the only thing we've got now which is why I've also said all that other shit won't work. That's why I've called for a boycott of the duopoly, why I called for a boycott of the presidential election. Why I've called for an independent movement without electing politicians, instead of reforming the democratic party or trying a third party approach, to call for an end to this oligarchic political system and the duopoly that dominates it.
The task imo is to get enough people to want a revolution.
It's a matter of what you want and what you think is necessary to get it.
Lesson from the rise & fall of “Black Block” tactics in Germany?
https://politicsandculture.org/2009/11/09/macht-kaputt-was-euch-kaputt-m...
Interesting.
Thanks for that link. That's why I think we have to use the force. Actually, I think we have to be smarter than they are and use their illusions against them. I think it's possible.
I agree revolution is the only solution.
I just don't know what it looks like and how to get people behind it. I don't support violence. Putting people in the streets only turns them into chum. How to convince everyone to get on board even if we could define it and do it safely is another story.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
What does your
revolution envision? Are you talking about ditching the constitution and replacing our form of government?
How do we 'get rid' of the undesirable politicians?
Maybe a two-pronged approach would work. Start a new party (Bernie proved the people and money are there) and do some footwork. Do a lit drop in neighborhoods. The lit could say, for example, "Tired of the Dems? Tired of the Repubs? Ready for a revolution? There is now another choice, blah, blah, blah. Volunteer, donate, etc., call #, or see www. whatever.
I know I'm on a 3rd party kick, but I don't see the population wanting to simply remove people from office, especially with the military supporting office holders.
dfarrah
I wrote this last month.
https://caucus99percent.com/content/unrepresented-party-or-how-start-rev...
I'm not in favor of a third party because I think the deck is too stacked against them, it would be participating in a political system that I believe needs to be trashed, it would involve electing politicians trying to compete in a corrupt Congress that represents the oligarchy, and it would take too long. I think we can find a better way, or someone can find a better way, obviously not "we".
I still don't
see any concrete steps to take now.
Someone mentioned discussion, but I don't see how that wouldn't take as long as establishing a 3rd party.
And why does everyone say establishing a 3rd party would take so long. The population is ready for a third party. The money is there, the people are there - so why do anti-3rd partiers think it would take so long?
dfarrah
Maybe it won't. I think those on C99 who can't get behind
revolution should certainly get behind a third party. As for me, I won't mention the word again at this site. I give up.
Don't give up - I
did read your article just now - I may have read it before, but I didn't recall the details.
So, what do we do to ignite this independent movement? (after all, we're talking about the same people and goals).
Do you want to start lit drops or using email lists?
dfarrah
Can't give up now, it's too late.
Ya, it would take a lot of work organizing just like with a third party effort. I've actually started a couple times but found out it will require more than one person.
Of all the countries in the world
the US Deep State is the best prepared to squelch internal dissent. They have been preparing for decades.
Fuck em if they can't take a joke.
That's their Achilles heel
They take themselves too seriously. Eventually they start to believe their own propaganda. When that happens, it's only a matter of time when the Empire self destructs from within. It's getting very frayed around the edges at this time. At least Trump was good for one thing - the grotesque opposition to him exposed much of the rot within. Obomber kept this shit hidden.
If the Empire is getting frayed, are there any strings we can
unravel more, with a nice-sounding Zzzip? Other than pointing out propaganda, I can't think of one. A strike is a useless effort now. The economy is too diffuse.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
it's up to Republicans...oh boy
the left can't get a hold of the Dem apparatus and the Dem elite like things as they are. It'll all have to turn so bad that even the Repubs can't stand it any more.
Rethugs can't stand it any more
And it's rapidly doing just that.
Town Hells are earning that name for an increasing number of Goopers.
The natives are getting restless.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Agreed.
This is all my opinion, but I think you're 100% right. While the left is still arguing about if he DNC is worth saving or not, the right has proven before they aren't afraid to not vote for the RNC's chosen candidates if they disagree with them, even if it means losing to a Democrat. The RNC fears the voters, as it should be. Meanwhile the DNC is arguing in court that they don't have to listen to the will of the voters and too many on the left find that ok.
This is totally anedotal, but I spoke with diehard Republican voters in my family and they weren't happy with Trump and would have voted for Bernie, had he been allowed to run. I don't know how they ended up voting, haven't wanted to ask, but I've noticed a lot of the smug political discussion of the Obama and even Bush years has been totally absent recently. Even with 24/7 Fox News blasting, they aren't finding much to try to rub in my face.
I hate to say it, but I think the majority of Democratic voters will complain but have still been lulled into complacency by 11th dimensional chess and lesser evilism. I really hoped what happened to Bernie would have been a wake up call, but then again, Bernie himself wants to claim Her won the primary fair and square...
(Edit: not saying the RNC situation is ideal. Not suggesting they don't pay just lip service to their voters to win their votes. And I'd never suggest the influence of tea party types has been anything but negative. But, if you look at the situation on the right vs. that of the left, where the DNC is almost daring people not to vote for them and antagonistically giving the middle finger to the voters, the left has some lessons they need to learn before things on this side will change.)
Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.
I wish I had the answers.
I am finding it difficult to imagine any realistic path forward that is able to address the depth of corruption of the individuals/institutions that control our lives. It is a lonely, alienating way to feel.
I'm with you joliberal. IMHO, it's not fair to blame C99P
for the inertia that we're witnessing. One of the major purposes of this community (as I understand it) is to provide a venue for the exchange of information, which it does handily--major kudos to JtC and Joe!
As I've observed in the past, it seems that learned helpfulness and risk aversion has griped much of the progressive community. I wish I had the answer to that problem, but I don't. And, until that is dealt with, I'm very skeptical that we'll be witnessing a (peaceful) political revolution on 'the Left' anytime soon.
Another impediment, IMO, is the unwillingness or inability of some folks (not all) to process the machinations of the 2016 primary, learn from it, and move on.
Back to my original point, C99P serves the 'Left' community well, in that is provides a platform for the exchange of ideas without censorship, in a user-friendly, welcoming, and supportive environment--for which we should all be grateful.
Have a nice Memorial Day!
Mollie
“I believe in the redemptive powers of a dog’s love. It is in recognition of each dog’s potential to lift the human spirit--and therefore, to change society for the better--that I fight to make sure every street dog has its day.”
--Stasha Wong, Secretary, Save Our Street Dogs (SOSD)
The SOSD Fantastic Four
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
Amen Cassiodorus
I'm just sick of the regurgitation of the same old politics,pols, and insider pundirt blowhards, left and right, that seem to just continue on with their chosen stances under the godawful inevitable duopoly. This applies to local state and national. Not to mention the endless idiotic PC 'progressives' who spend all their energy on shit like 'cultural appropriation' or phony resistance the Demorat's cook up. Big brouhaha here in Portland cause some white women started a food cart and are selling tacos and such. Another big issue is freaking yuppie hipsters eating avocado toast. My god people lets just really move on and let Dkos and Demorat's behind. . How many fake liberals can fit on the head of a pin without 'wrapping their arms around Putin/Trump'? The political does not have to be about partisan bs., pols of mass deception (Bernie included) or the latest internecine DC scandal, power plays, the spooks or the congressional kabuki. They got you where they want you as long as you keep playing their game. You want more real people here well maybe it would help if you guys weren't stuck in the past and present going no where, non reality.
Portland’s “woke” folk force 2 women to close their burrito shop
after a sh*tstorm of resentment and protest against “cultural appropriation” descended upon their heads.
http://www.portlandmercury.com/blogtown/2017/05/22/19028161/this-week-in...
So that’s a “victory,” huh?
What do you suggest people do?
Die in the streets? Get fired from their part-time minimum wage jobs to go die in the streets? What are you doing?
C99 is working to provide a platform for that push back. It anticipated how intolerable dkos would become, and it worked to build and give people an alternative to the piss pot orange blog that alleges to be progressive. (Isn't it ironic that it is the same color as Trump.)
What are the complainers doing to do something constructive? c99 cannot be blamed for the masochists who can't tear away from the abuse at dailykos. C99 cannot make people contribute cash, OTs, or essays to the community. Just what do you want c99 do above and beyond what it already did and are you willing to lead it?
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Deny the media our household’s “mindshare” and buying power
Dry up demand for the corrupt media censors, gatekeepers, and gaslighters.
Let’s not make the mistake that Heiko Maas, the Social Democratic justice minister in Germany, is making. Maas has drafted a law that would make Facebook, Google, Amazon, and the mainstream media even more central and powerful.
The proposed law hands Big Data an authority that currently resides with the courts: the power and obligation to decide what is “hate speech.” If passed, the law compels websites to remove “hateful” content within one week of receiving a complaint, under threat of draconian penalties.
I like and read Catlin Johnstone
and you too dk. What am I doing? Right now working locally to fight our sick, crooked city and state Demoratic government. I'm trying hard to keep a roof over our head literally and figuratively and I'm trying to support local food business and comunity actions. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to resist the Demorat's or the dupopoly I just can't do it anymore. It's a big freaking waste of time and energy and it's making me crazy. I apologize as this site is a great community. I'm saying the whole net is inbred and useless with it's infighting and following of celebrity utterances and fake lefty 'progressive' propaganda. I'm not blaming anyone here or really anywhere.
I guess I need a break for a bit. I do not think dying in the streets or losing your part time job are necessarily the only alternative people have to this nightmare. For now 'I'm just trying to do my jigsaw puzzle before it rains anymore'[. In other words I'm not fit company and not much good here at cc99% as a contributor to the site. I just don't give a shit about what the rulers of the universe are doing among themselves. I could careless about any pols income tax returns or our fucked up justice system, or the fake 'social liberalism'.
I will not consent to be governed on any level by the American fascistic state. I think you underestimate people they are not stupid and although they are loath to leave their comfort zones they are aware of what's going down. So you see it's time for me to quit getting on the entire net for awhile. I have a garden to grow and a business to run and a tattered but not dead liberal community. Nothing in politics or history is static and people do find ways to fight the assholes who always try to rule the world. They are not as they always proclaim, inevitable. There is no more left,center,right as they broke the compass.
So you think c99 and the handful of people here
are going to change the world? WTF is the matter with us? We need to snap to it. Perhaps those of you criticizing c99 might share with us what you are doing to increase our audience or save the world.
From someone who managed and planned state and federally funded job training programs for 35 years, let me tell you that is bull shit. Employers want ponies - and free money. No strings, no commitment to hire or retain, no employee commitments, and PhD qualified candidates to clean toilets.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Right, so everyone is going to sign up for huge loan debts
so that they can compete for jobs that will maybe satisfy half of them. I don't think so. Someone will find a way around the credential thing, and turn out competent high-grade employees with high-school diplomas. And they'll make a fortune on it.
“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris
Foreign labor
Bangladesh for labor and H1B visa for professional staff. All the countries that have cheap labor and/or free education will fill domestic labor needs gladly. Corporate America will do anything to protect corporate America from investing a dime in the growth and development of their own labor and ringing up a dime on the liability side of the ledger. That's what are taxes are for. Pay them to locate in your country/state, abate their taxes, and then give them money to train their existing staff. That is the miracle cure they are all looking for.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
You are assuming there is a free and open
marketplace in the US. Unfortunately, the system is rigged. Credentials have ceased to be passports into the 'system', they have become barriers.
What I suggest is in fact quite possible.
It would simply require the hiring corporations to bypass the degree-granters and issue their own credentials, wherein online learning that is already going on right now could continue to be validated without the blessings of online universities. If Monsanto "University" could issue a credential good for a job specially-tailored to the needs of Monsanto, why would Monsanto want to hire someone with a real degree? All it really requires is for someone to sell the concept to the new hires and to Monsanto.
“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris
Basically what you are asking for is a return to
training by mentoring and apprenticeship. I don't think we will ever return to those days. Corporations are more interested in out-sourcing and that includes training. They are no longer willing to make an investment in their workers. It is now expected that the workers pay for their own training and education.
I still remember the days when corporations needed to keep their highly skilled workers during downtimes due to the large investment they had made in them. Those days are long gone. We see the affects now as most of the productivity gains since the late 70's are being usurped by corporate management and rentiers. Workers are increasingly disposable, replaceable as well as outsourced. Even worse, corporations have now started to consume themselves with stock buy-backs in their never-ending quest for the required capitalistic geometric profit gain.
Back in the sixty's there were magazine articles talking about the wonderful future for workers with the remarkable productivity gains beginning to take effect. They talked about a new leisure class where work weeks would be reduced to 30 and even 24 hours with the same (or more!) pay and benefits. We were looking forward to retiring at 45 or 50.
No.
Did you catch the part where I said:
Let me emphasize that part about already going on right now once again. The learners themselves don't like having the work they're already doing being "outsourced" to expensive universities, given the rather pricey student loans they're taking on for the "privilege" of doing it, and if the corporations can be enticed into a deal to make training more specific to their particular needs, there will be a new market. I'm not calling for any more mentoring or apprenticeship than is already going on now.
“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris
Do you think there has been a migration back to DK?
There are some missing handles here. I do not visit that site. In my view the "Left" is wandering in the wilderness now. We were bamboozled by Obama, Trump is a disaster, and other than Bernie and maybe Tulsi, few voices stand out. And they are not that far Left. I am dismayed. Personal health problems have made activism difficult. And I am a Boomer white woman, ready to hand torches to younger activists. Where are they?
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
The point to discussion
is that it is essential. Discussion is fundamental. It is the first step.
I am very sorry to hear that a professor thinks discussion is pointless.
Many on this site have noted how pervasive the propaganda and the disinformation is regarding our current state of affairs. I am astonished by its effectiveness or possibly, I have just never been so alert to it.
If people think there will be a revolution, I don't know who they think will revolt since everyone I see has swallowed the propaganda, hook, line, and sinker.
Hence, the importance of discussion. The first step seems to me to get people to understand the problems.
Serious discussion, in our culture, is discredited and regarded as devoid of inherent value. I absolutely disagree with that notion and think that it is a useful and important tool. I have found though, that it takes people more talented than I am to open the door to discussion. Every time I have tried lately, the door is slammed in my face. Bottom line; discussion is really hard to do, a big pain in the ass, but more important than ever.
When the market crash comes (not IF it comes)
people will starve. In pre-Revolutionary Bourbon France the Revolution did not get serious until a vast starvation affected the general population. This is coming. You won't need to be "woke", you'll have an empty stomach to remind you to be mad and take your own action.
And
will each of us being mad and taking our own actions result in some kind of epiphany, or small feudal communities where the most violent and best armed are on top, or a fascist state?
And when the crash comes will the planet be too far gone for anything else to matter.
I don't know the answer to your questions
but it will be violent, no matter what the outcome.
Even if people are peaceful
we can count on the police to not be. Most of the protests were peaceful until the cops showed up with their riot gear and military equipment. They were responsible for the protests turning into riots. Now state after state are writing legislation that will make protesting unlawful. Some are saying that if protesters block traffic, it's okay for motorists to hit them and they won't be charged.
Congress is trying to pass legislation that will make it a felony if protesters hurt the cops, either willfully or not. People could be sentenced for up to 5-10 years and have to pay restitution up to $10,000 or more.
We saw what happened during the DAPL protests when the dogs were allowed to bite the protesters even though they weren't doing illegal.
The company in charge of this were a private contractor called Tiger Swan which has a horrible reputation.
Who is Tiger Swan?
And just like people were okay with how OWS and BLM being brutally shut down by, they didn't have a problem with what this company did to peaceful protesters.
How did the police and the mercenaries look at these people? Like this.
Now isn't that special? Anyone who wants to gather and protest the government, an oil company or anything else that we don't agree with or want will be looked at as jihadists fighters, FFS!
Our time for protesting our government or any other issue is rapidly closing because TPTB know that people are tired of being oppressed and having our freedoms taken away from us.
This is why they militarized the police. It's their way of getting around Posse Comitas. But if they run out of police to control us, there is always that contingent of troops that Bush created for just this reason.
Also don't forget that Obama signed off on a NDAA provision that states people can be arrested by the military and held indefinitely without charges or a trial.
Hey, maybe those FEMA camps that Haliburton built aren't CT after all.
I highly recommend this article. It shows how deeply this company investigated the people who went to the DAPL protests. This should be a wake up call to every person in this country. We know that TPTB are very good at distracting us from what they are doing. I'm thinking that Trump's behavior is a distraction from what they are doing behind the scenes.
https://theintercept.com/2017/05/27/leaked-documents-reveal-security-fir...
edit: it was security guards not Tiger Swan personnel who let the dogs bite the protesters
“When out of fear you twist the lesser evil into the lie that it is something good, you eventually rob people of the capacity to distinguish between good and evil.”
~ Hannah Arendt
Doggone, Snoopy, that is good!
So that any dissent from the US Party line (=corporatist) is jihadist. All dissenters are traitors and should be sent to Gitmo.
I wonder how far away we are from being sent to camps
or some other types of containment? Just the fact that our government authorized a private mercenary contractor to treat American citizens the way they did should drive fear into all Americans.
Look at how many government agencies were involved with DAPL and how far they were willing to go to make sure that it was completed.
Our government has given our rights away to not only US corporations, but to foreign ones too.
Eminent domain is only supposed to be used for the common good of the city or state. Bush signed an executive order stating that, but Obama discarded the order and let a foreign company take people's lands. At least 7 citizens are suing over that. But by the time the lawsuits are finished, the DAPL will probably have leaked many more times.
The best president since FDR was the first president that allowed a private mercenary contractor to operate on US soil. And he sat back and watched as all protests were met with overwhelming force.
And most people are unaware that most of our rights are as worthless as that gawd damn piece of paper.
There is so much information about what Tiger Swan was allowed to do in the Intercept article, and I hope that people will read it. And let people know what happened at the DAPL protests. As I stated, our time to protest anything is rapidly running out. If this level of violence was acceptable to TPTB over one pipeline, imagine what lengths they will go to if people threaten anything that's even more important to them.
I hope that I'm just paranoid, but reading what Tiger Swan was able to do American citizens, I don't think I am.
“When out of fear you twist the lesser evil into the lie that it is something good, you eventually rob people of the capacity to distinguish between good and evil.”
~ Hannah Arendt
WTF, Snoopy, did you mean Jack Kennedy
or were you just feeling snarky?
His “comfortable shoes” were out having their soles replaced.
I’m sure Mr. Non-Sanctimonious would have liked to do more to help, but dang! Once again that ornery old “world as we find it” somehow just up and spoiled his plans.
HEH. That is what I see written about him on ToP
and that he ended two wars and hasn't started any new ones. Talk about being in a bubble for 8 years.
Here is the article on the new federal law being worked on in both houses.
This part of the bill lets the cops decide whether they thought that any action taken against them could be interpreted as an assault on them. And we know how often they fear for their lives interpretation has been manufactured.
Why do I see a hidden hand being used on politicians at all levels? Where is this leading and what is the end game?
Like I said, I hope that I am just paranoid.
Another article to read to see all the details.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/new-republican-bill-makes-suing-cops...
“When out of fear you twist the lesser evil into the lie that it is something good, you eventually rob people of the capacity to distinguish between good and evil.”
~ Hannah Arendt
@Alligator Ed They get there
They get there through the "essential industries" portion of the Patriot Act.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@snoopydawg "Pipeline
"Pipeline insurgencies?"
As Sunny says to Count Olaf, "Man. You ARE nuts."
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@randtntx It's not everyone. But
It's not everyone. But the effect of the propaganda is that those who are not taken in by it are silenced. There's literally no space for them in American public discourse.
Or for us, I should say.
The more demoralized people become, the less they talk. And things have been mighty demoralizing since December, watching half the Left gambol with the CIA.
Ah, shit. Maybe I should write about that. I didn't want to, because, well, it's hideously demoralizing.
See? Even I've been talking less.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
All talk, no action.
Sorry, I think discussion is way overrated. That's part of the reason I quit attending political meetings - they're all venting and talking. When I was active, I just decided I would help implement whatever was decided at meetings, but I sure wasn't going to waste my time with all of the yammering.
dfarrah
This site can make a huge contribution to enlightenment
If we can figure out how to get really productive discussions going. I know it's something that most people here want. I think we should just keep trying, nobody will figure this out for us.
Beware the bullshit factories.
"What is the size of the American micro-Left? "
It depends on how you look at it,doesn't it?
1) If the number who would support left/progressive politics given a chance-
A whole lot. The Sanders campaign showed that it's big enough to win.
2)If the number who are able to influence national politics at all-
infinitesimal.
To a Syrian war victim, is there any measurable difference between me and HRC?
I don't see it. But perhaps that sorry fact isn't the whole story. Keep on keeping on, as they say. thx.
edit form.
Personally, I'd love for you to give us
some answers then, since you seem convinced we're all just wasting our time as well as yours. As for property, I want property to leave a place for my niece, nephew and a disabled friend and her daughter to perhaps have a place to run to when the shit hits the fan - I'm not "fixated" on personal private property just to "have" it and keep it away from others. Is that inherently selfish? I suppose so, but I think its a very human response and gee, I'm a human, imperfect and obviously seriously deficient in coming up with any REAL solutions.
I also see that a lot of people here have been fighting this fight, so to speak, for 40 years or so. Why don't they have answers after all this time? And as far as I'm concerned, neither fucking "Party" has any solutions and even if they did they would not offer them. So while you like to comfort yourself that we're all just waiting on another Democrat, you think whatever you need to think about the rest of us. Really, does an elitist attitude of attempting to shame others really help the cause? If you need to do that head on over to that other hell hole and fire away.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
whew.
Get out your phone
and speed dial Hillary. You need to tell her to get the lead out and do something right now to fix everything. Peace on earth. You said.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
@irishking @dkmich DK--were you
DK--were you responding to lizzy? If so, I don't understand the connection between her comment and yours.
My read was that lizzy was responding angrily to the criticism Cass had made of the site. I don't see how that makes lizzy somebody who relies on Hillary Clinton for answers?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
That was the way I read it too (n/t)
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Chuckling here.
I read your comment here as snark but I wish I did have Shillary's phone number.... I could work up a nice head of steam and really let loose on someone who fully deserves that wrath! But she won't give any of us her number, she does not want to hear from one more unrealistic, pie in the sky Bernie Bro! Such a chicken shit, isn't she?
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Lizzy, here is the point of this site in my opinion
Actually some of us do have solutions, not always the same, but solutions. Our problem is that we lack the effective power to energize, then activate those changes. Why haven't those desired results happened by now. Political/social movements take time from inception to fruition. How much time partially depends upon the environment, rather than peoples' ideals.
We cannot wait for a giant earthquake to swallow up DC and the Hamptons.
Yet we we have had an earthquake of sorts, Hurricane Bernie, who flattened the land and stripped away much of the foliage for all to see the corruption at the core. He has solutions but not the power. But with time the power accumulates. We need continuing education into the details of the corruptocracy, which itself is constantly evolving just like bacteria learning to fight off new antibiotics.
Then some person or persons will arise and aided by education obtained here at c99 and elsewhere, will be able to LEAD.
Without Marx and Engels, neither of whom were activists but were the ideological framers of what became the Soviet Union, the Soviet Union would never have taken power. The Bolsheviks were not disorganized street thugs--they were acting according to organizing principles.
@Alligator Ed Was lizzy actually
Was lizzy actually bashing the site? That's not how I read it at all. I thought she was angry at Cass for bashing the site.
Perhaps lizzy could shed some light on what she meant, because otherwise we are going to be having more than one argument at a time.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I wasn't bashing Lizzy
In fact, I hope, she and others will understand my comment in constructive ways. I will not bash or belittle any community members. I try to keep relations friendly with all. Politicians not so much--they are fair game.
@Alligator Ed I didn't say you
I didn't say you were bashing Lizzy.
It seems some people think Lizzy was bashing the site. My read of her comment was quite otherwise. Just would like some clarification from her on that, otherwise this part of discussion will go around in circles!
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I read her comment as you did.
fwiw.
Hey there, not bashing c99
in any way! And yes, there was indeed some emotional reaction in my response. I think the discussions on this site are great, that's why I come here and find this place indispensable for keeping me somewhat sane while watching the madness. I guess I responded more to the tone of this diary - that somehow the author seemed to think we're just all out here for shits and grins and just want to bitch on endlessly about Democrats and the other hell hole. Do I enjoy that bitching? Enormously, because I do find it helpful, to me, to laugh at their idiocy even when that laughter is merely dark comedy. I resent the attitude that I seemed to sense that this place is just a waste of time and we all just aren't trying hard enough to DO anything. As dkmich asked above, should we all just get out in the streets and start shedding blood? I don't think that would work, as we all know "they" are more than prepared for that.
I think Medicare for All is a good starting place though because that effects everyone, from the ugly nasty Tea Bags I have such a hard time with, down to the leftiest leftist. I also think that discussion points almost directly, if not directly, to the wars America insists it must fight. Even the least involved person knows what we spend on "Defense" every year, and once it's pointed out that we COULD have healthcare, decent safety nets and an educated populace if we weren't spending that money on war that may gain real traction. Wouldn't we all rather pay our taxes for that instead of wars that end up in more killing?
I usually try to stay away on weekends, try not to read the "news" but I fully admit, since that Rump got in I find myself checking it every day. And when I saw this one, well, I let my emotions get the better of me.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
@lizzyh7 That's what I
That's what I thought you meant.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
If I were an elitist...
If I were an elitist, the questions I've suggested would all be merely rhetorical ones. I'd love to give me some answers, too, but I don't have them. To wit:
1) I don't know when it's going to change.
2) I really have no idea if education is obsolete yet. The big question is one of whether or not education-as-commodity has priced itself out of the business.
3) I'd love it if there were a real technological fix for climate change. But as far as I know, there isn't. The Paris agreements are a big fig-leaf, that's for sure.
4) I have no idea how big the genuine Left is. I do know that it's not big enough to reach out to me.
5) In California, the questioning of the future of money boils down to whether or not it can be exchanged for real estate ownership. The market here (and elsewhere) is based on a Ponzi scheme of ever-increasing property values, and the property taxes are based on the property values. Does there come a point at which you will not be able to buy or hold property because you won't be able to afford the taxes on it? As for money itself, it's based on faith.
6) I have to imagine that if the people who pay the leafblower operators were home when the properties were being leafblown, they'd go away.
So, yeah, I don't know.
“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris
@Cassiodorus 4) I have no idea how
4) I have no idea how big the genuine Left is. I do know that it's not big enough to reach out to me.
We are not in a time of ready-made politics. We are in a time when we can either rebuild or invent structures that are not handed down to us from above, or we can party till the lights go out (or, more likely, the earth burns). Or we can spend our time lying about what kind of time we're in. Or we can spend our time blaming each other for the situation.
I'm not interested in lying or blaming anyone who makes less than 300K/year, and maybe not all of them. Except perhaps police chiefs and sheriffs, who are going along with doing the Feds' disgusting dirty work for them. Then again, maybe some of them make more than 300K/year. No idea how much you make when you run the Chicago or NYPD.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
It sure sounded as if you think others should have the answers
and fixed the problem. I don't mind shit stirring a rather harmonious and homogeneous site, but I won't quietly accept attacking c99 for not having conquered world hunger before lunch.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Other people act as if they do have the answers
to my questions. And if they do have these answers, well then let's see them.
“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris
The majority of Americans don't give a shit
about any of those issues. In fact, if you were to question them, they wouldn't have a clue about what you are talking about.
@CB I don't at all believe
I don't at all believe that. And my opinion of the American public is lower than it's ever been in my life. But yes, I think Americans know there's a problem with our politics and our education system--a severe problem. I also think a surprising number know there's a climate change problem.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
This makes my head hurt
because I am not sure how you think that this little site can do it all. Despite that, some of us have been trying to promote this site via social media and as we get more exposure, we might just be able to form alliances that will lead to an impact.
I am also not sure what you are asking of each of us here. You have not told us of your ideas while criticizing those of us who are trying to promote discussion and ideas here. Not every one of us has all the talents, but as a group, perhaps those talents working in tandem with the talents of others both here and elsewhere can lead to good things.
Trying and not succeeding is better than not trying at all.
As far as your questions:
1) I have seen very little of which you complain regarding Trump here. This is not a Trump bashing site, simply because most of us understand that Trump is the result of a larger problem with our political structure and the role that the Democratic party has chosen within that structure. Working on the larger problem will solve the problem of Trump.
2) Education is not obsolete. Everyone needs education, particularly in the area of critical thinking skills, regardless of the ultimate job they do. The problem is that education has been commoditized and is being used to funnel more public funds into the hands of the banks and the wealthy. The result is a dumbing down of critical thinking skills in favor of techical training.
3) We were warned, but those with the real power to change the suicidal course upon which we are currently headed refuse(d) to do anything. Knowing the real truth is difficult for most people to accept until it hits them in the face. That is why the government should have been leading the way.
4) The United States is not allowed to have a real left under our corporate state. The left exists when it is not defined in political terms, but by what people want in their lives.
5) and 6) I am not sure where these two questions are coming from.
JMHO from your average idiot (me).
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
sorry about your headache.
this won't hurt,and it might help.
My headache is metaphorical
from this.
Thank you for the kind thought
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
I think we can be metaphorical aspirin
We had a day here, a few weeks ago, that seemed really productive. We were trying to create a list of the things the 99% most want. There was a good draft of a manifesto written. What are our options? We have one planet, each of us has one life and a limited amount of time. What choice do we have but to try to fight for own future.
Beware the bullshit factories.
Some responses
That's good. Have we gone beyond #DemExit yet?
That's true. The problem, though, is that when you have to buy a commoditized education that has priced itself out of the business, you are going to buy technical training over critical thinking skills every time, because technical training at least promises to pay the bills. Eventually, though, someone is going to think of a way to get rid of those middlemen, the colleges and universities, who have for the most part been responsible for the high prices.
Indeed this is also true. You would think that people would recognize this and (at the least) stop having kids or something like that. Instead I have to imagine that they are all hoping for a quick techno-fix that will make it all go away. I'd like those who are in fact doing that to name the techno-fix and explain the designs in a way that would be comprehensible to any reader of The Way Things Work, either volume.
I myself would tend to agree with you. But there are all sorts of people on the Internet who claim this is false!
“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris
@Cassiodorus The issue does not
The issue does not seem to me to be at all whether or not we can have a real Left; the issue seems to be that we are in a political situation where it doesn't matter what anybody's views are unless they are very high up indeed; probably even most of the top 10% doesn't have any real influence (and I think they're gonna be mighty shocked one of these days when their billionaire buddies leave them to rot).
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
correcto.
@gulfgal98 Just to be fair--
Just to be fair--
Cass has put forward an idea-- the idea of starting a third party. Unfortunately, people's (warranted) concerns about the viability of our electoral process discourages the idea of starting a new third party. When rigging like last year's goes unpunished, you can either lie to yourself about it and keep going like Cenk Uygur and others, or you can see it and understand that electoral options are not particularly viable at this time--but then you're faced with figuring out something else to do.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Cass is blaming us...
I voted third party. Should I sell my home and give the money to Stein? Just WTF are "we" suppose to do about it. c99 is not dailykos in size or longevity. Just how is this site suppose to do what dailykos won't do?
What I am not happy about is the attack on and denigration of c99 and its community. I didn't get banned from dailykos. I got sick of it, and I did something about it. You did too.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
@dkmich I don't agree with
I don't agree with Cass' position. I've said before that I don't think it's the site that has caused the drop in numbers; caucus99percent has been run the same since the beginning, when we had lots of people and when we had less. There's been no change here that would result in such a drop--or in any change in numbers. What's dropping the numbers is that people are giving up on politics--and giving up generally.
Do I think we'd get more people here if we had "the answer" and published it? Of course. If I had wings I could fly too. If I were Captain Kirk I could transport myself the hell off this planet.
The fact is, there's a lot for us to do, but no answer to our predicament. At least, none that can come from us. Or if there is, I can't see it.
It's possible change could be instigated from elsewhere than us. If that were to happen, it would be nice if we were in a good position to act, which we aren't right now: we are isolated, demoralized, disorganized and a bit fragile. It would be nice if we organized ourselves into a more powerful and resilient position (creating many persistent small communities networked together would be an example of doing this; at least meeting each other would be a good start). It would also be a good idea for all of us to take steps to make living under the barrage of terrible policy easier and better, and to figure out more and more workarounds to the dominant system (There's a *lot* to do on that front).
That's all I've got (though I could explain what I've got in a lot more detail), unless somebody has the answer to being in the grip of lunatics who have managed to surround themselves with massive military power.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
You make a number of good points.
Re the lower level of activity showing up, I think blogs that devote a great deal of their attention to politics are cyclical. The primaries, the election, and most of the reaction to the election are over. I don't think the decline has anything to do with activities at C99%. For me, as the number of regulars grows smaller I feel closer to people.
I think your idea of regional get togethers is fantastic, even if it's only 4 or 5 people getting together for coffee (and danish). We have escaped the worst of TOP. Even when people disagree strongly there is no flagging or time out or banning. These are serious issues and people have serious disagreements on means. I suspect that there is a huge amount of agreement on where the means should lead.
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