To My Friends on the Left: Hillary Clinton Is Not the Enemy
Jeffrey Isaacs published a letter today in The Nation. I would quibble with a few things in it, for example, it is addressed to a successful professional audience and is somewhat oblivious to the travails of those who are not. Hillary’s foreign policy is certainly “within a bipartisan mainstream” as Issacs says. Yet this should only be taken as an indictment of this “bipartisan mainstream”.
But Isaacs’ main argument is sound. The various career-furthering strategem Hillary is criticized for employing have been used by most presidential candidates before her as well. All this criticism is meant to divert your attention from the fact that most of us have few views in common with the groping and bullying Trump.
If you are approaching Clinton from the left, and haven’t already, you should read this: Noam Chomsky's 8-Point Rationale for Voting for the Lesser Evil Presidential Candidate
In particular:
The broader lesson to be drawn is not to shy away from confronting the dominance of the political system under the management of the two major parties. Rather, challenges to it need to be issued with a full awareness of their possible consequences. This includes the recognition that far right victories not only impose terrible suffering on the most vulnerable segments of society but also function as a powerful weapon in the hands of the establishment center, which, now in opposition can posture as the “reasonable” alternative. A Trump presidency, should it materialize, will undermine the burgeoning movement centered around the Sanders campaign, particularly if it is perceived as having minimized the dangers posed by the far right.
If, for some reason, the Weiner laptop saga has made any difference to your views, do read Isaacs as well:
To My Friends on the Left: Hillary Clinton Is Not the Enemy.
She is being attacked by the right wing because the right wing hates her. And the right wing hates her because she is a liberal and a feminist and a woman and because she supports the things that most anger the right wing: gender equality, reproductive freedom, equality for gays and lesbians, gun control, racial equality, and civil rights.
These things that she supports are the things that we support. The things she supports have their limits. She has her limits. But she is not evil, and she is not an enemy.
In the next ten days leading up to Election Day, Clinton will be subjected to a list-ditch barrage of attacks from the right. She does not “deserve” these attacks. And while the attackers target her, what they attack is much of what is valuable to you and to me. To us.
Let us not exult in her travails. They are undeserved. And such exultation does no good in any case.
Let us defeat a Republican neofascist by electing a Democratic neoliberal feminist.
Comments
Srsly? This was a real job?
Bwah-ha-ha-hah. How'd that work out for them?
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Which one of these things do you think Trump will stop?
He's certainly not going to stop mass surveillance, or the pillaging of the environment. He's a fraud and a thief himself, so he'll continue that for sure. He loves prisons, maybe he'll execute a few people to lighten the load. Maybe on trade, he'll make "better deals", but hey, does anyone know what those deals are? Really, this guy is going to look out for the working classes he's been bilking every chance he gets for years?
I don't really hold her defending Bill Clinton against her. Those are Bill Clinton's faults, and we've all, at one time or another defended family or someone we loved. I don't think that makes her less of a positive force for women. And like with almost all things in this election, the alternative (Trump) is much, much worse on this score.
The "powerful groups" you're talking about, there are as many lined up supporting Trump if he does win. As with almost all previous elections, it's a contest between interests. I am okay with someone saying well we've had enough (finally). But let's not pretend HRC is somehow worse than LBJ whose entire campaign was funded by Brown and Root (now Halliburton), or virtually every other president who has come before.
It's a shitty choice, but it is a choice, and she is better than Trump, and no one else stands a chance of winning except maybe McMullin in some very strange scenarios.
@subirgrewal
This is your opinion, subir
People here have stated why they aren't going to vote for Hillary and why they don't like or trust anything she says and you knew all of this before you wrote this essay and they have responded respectfully to you.
I don't appreciate your coming back hours later to deride their opinions and I would say a lot more, but JtC has given you the grace to write it so I won't say what I would like to say. And you know that if any of us wrote this type of essay over at DK stating that Jill Stein is a better candidate than Hillary how it would be received.
I have no idea why you wrote this knowing damned well how people feel about her or what your goal was.
Thankfully this damned election will be over soon
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
You've got to read this article, Subir
Here's an excerpt:
The whole thing is here.
and here's another one.
We're facing potential nuclear annihilation, yet she keeps ramping up the stupid rhetoric.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
The "painlessly vaporized" will be the lucky ones
Most of us won't be lucky. Death from radiation poisoning is at least as nasty and degrading as death from cholera. Death from dehydration because the water system has been disrupted/polluted isn't any fun either. Death from starvation because there is no food takes longer and is even less fun.
Most of the American public have no idea how terribly disruptive even a "limited" nuclear war would be - Pat Frank was a cockeyed optimist when he wrote Alas, Babylon, stacking the odds incredibly high in favor of the survival of his chosen characters, and it's still a depressing read. (He didn't know about "nuclear winter". Nobody did, back then.)
It's entirely possible that Nevil Shute (On the Beach) was on the mark for the wrong reasons - nuclear winter could be just as disastrous as creeping long-term fallout.
The only way to "win" the game is not to play. But try telling that to Madam Risk!
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
A positive force for women? Hardly.
What has she done, srsly? All I can find is that in her early years she was a public defender. She has given some nice speeches. Given that she has been in control of a massively funded foundation, that is some pretty weak sauce. Has the foundation provided any economic empowerment for women? Or funded so much as the digging of an effing village well so women in Africa don't have to walk long distances through hostile territory just to fetch water? Anything like this or this?
And she has acknowledged her earlier support for NAFTA and welfare reform, which has harmed women and children. As has all that ME bombing and the Honduras mess.
Seems to me she might have been positive for a small subset of wealthy white women. And a few people she allowed close enough to get photo ops.
Thus harmed a lot more women than she ever helped.
Isn't that about it?
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What are you about now?
Name one?
First off, where's your evidence re: LBJ's campaign? Let's see some dollar amounts, and some comparisons: Brown and Root vs. LBJ's other donors. Secondly, HRC is a neoliberal, whereas LBJ ruled in an era in which populist Keynesianism was the hegemonic doctrine in economics. The status quo is not half as pretty now as it was back then.
The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.
Nope, this is pure BS
it was bill who killed welfare and both clintons bragged about it, it is the clintons who bring a never ending war which destroys the most vulnerable of society, and what establishment center in America is he talking about, the clintons? Issacs has a good chemist .......this is just total BS
" This includes the recognition that far right victories not only impose terrible suffering on the most vulnerable segments of society but also function as a powerful weapon in the hands of the establishment center, which, now in opposition can posture as the “reasonable” alternative"
I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish
"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"
Heard from Margaret Kimberley
A Hillary victory *is* a far-right victory.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Exactly
that's why I hate her having the D next to her name, like everything she associates herself with, it turns to shit.
We keep saying only the clintons, a D can gut SS, Medicare, and the other social programs but in reality it would be a far right wingnut like her that does it.
She's nothing but fucking dangerous.
I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish
"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"
Heard from Margaret Kimberley
Dude, come on.
You have an honest to goodness f'ing white-supremacist who hasn't met a fascist he doesn't like running against her and you think she's the "far right"?
Gimme a freaking break.
@subirgrewal
Tell me how you know that Hillary is not a fascist, please
~OaWN
trump is hardly a white supremacist.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
You're clearly welcome to believe whatever you want
I've lived in NYC for decades, this guy is a fixture. None of his racism is a surprise or new to anyone around here. No one's surprised he's got the support of the neo-Nazis, no one is surprised the remnants of the KKK are for him.
But yes, you can certainly tell yourself all of that is a decades long hoax. Or you could employ Occam's razor.
@subirgrewal
I'm reminded of the oft repeated
Defense over at DKos when heinous people endorsed Hillary. She can't control who is supporting her.
As for your bonafides of knowing a white supremacist because of your NYC address, I've lived in Chelsea since the early 1980's and have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.
This election isn't about Trump. It's about control and submission. Pity you don't see that.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Either he's okay with white supremacy
or the stupidest human who ever lived.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfBAKW54FVs width:500]
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The Clintons were fine with it, too--until the 2016 primary.
Her campaign against Obama was xenophobic, Islamophobic and racist.
Thank you for keeping this history alive.
One of the things that drives me fucking crazy about this campaign is that we're all supposed to forget what happened 8 years ago--because "Obama forgave her" or something.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
You're welcome. Just doing my duty to show how awful she is.
http://caucus99percent.com/content/hillary-thy-name-part-six
(I hope to have part 7 out soon.)
Obama "forgave" her because of the Grand PUMA Bargain of June, 2008.
She created the PUMA movement and fed it with her comment about McCain being ready for that 3 am phone call, but not Obama. She stayed in the race long after she had no chance of winning to nourish the PUMA movement and increase her bargaining leverage. Remember her mocking, "What does Hillary want?"
They put out the word that they had a secret meeting and Obama agreed to help her pay off her campaign debts. That was bs. Money is that last thing she needed to bargain for. He sent his donors (like me) ONE email asking that we consider helping her pay off her debts. ONE email. And he did ONE fundraiser for her. ONE fundraiser. Hillary doesn't even get up in the morning for one fundraiser and one email. She told him she wanted Secretary of State or VP and the coronation in 2016. In return, she would not oppose him in 20102 and Bill would campaign their hearts out for him in 2008 and 2012. DWS as head of the DNC might have been part of that bargain, too.
Forgave her, my ass. Also, xenophobia, Islamophobia and racism doesn't dishonor only Obama. He can forgive her (if indeed he truly has) on his own behalf. He cannot forgive her on behalf of all the biillions of people in the world harmed by xenophobia, Islamophobia and racism.* So, the "Obama forgave her" meme was an archetypal tone deaf Clintonism from the off. More tone deaf than even "we were broke when we left the White House."
I did not post at KOS anywhere near as much as the rest of you. However, when I posted that to Hillbots elsewhere, they had no come back. They just scurried away.
Woo.
"She told him she wanted Secretary of State or VP and the coronation in 2016. In return, she would not oppose him in 20102 and Bill would campaign their hearts out for him in 2008 and 2012. DWS as head of the DNC might have been part of that bargain, too. "
That's not one I ever thought of before, and I don't recall having seen it in print. I had heard about that meeting and the alleged result at the time, but never thought much about it then, or since. You definitely gave me something to think about. Can you really back it up, or are you just theorizing on the basis of your interpretation of Hillary's career?
Either way, you have my attention. Going to read your series now....
Who told you he was a white supremacist, Kossacks?
The same website that crowed for months about violence at Trump rallies, and in fact pioneered that particular issue, yet now we find out that it was mostly paid shills? The current Democratic establishment are a bunch of crooked, lying criminals. I wouldn't believe a word they say about Trump or anyone else.
More and worse democrats doesn't work for me.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
Please see video above. Not spin, Trump in his own words.
I could add more videos of his anti-Muslim, anti-Mexican, anti-black, anti-Chinese speeches. I don't believe DKos without checking for myself, but do you really think he's not a white supremacist?
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there's a big difference between being a bigot and being
a white supremacist.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
Yep, what Ripped said
It's not as if we have a large pool of great choices here.
Trump is a demonstrable idiot and repulsive on multiple levels, but I do think that he is less likely to destroy the world. YMMV.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
Can't you say anything other than
"Trump is worse"?
You do not defend Clinton by calling Trump a fascist. Do you think that we are allowed only one fascist per country? It seems to be a big tent Party.
I don't know you personally, though I have seen and commented on your pieces at TOP.
Please read the classic "Obedience to Authority" by S. Milgram- it might help you understand Party loyalty. And of course there is Orwell"s analysis of "doublethink" in 1984.
Come toward the light!
Stein - Baraka
2016
(Edited to remove my take on Subir's mental state.)
Moderation: please avoid turning onto the Insult Expressway.
Statements about the supposed mental state of the person you’re conversing with is one of the more heavily used entrance ramps onto the Insult Expressway. At c99 we do our best to keep it blocked off. Thanks.
I did not intend it to be an insult.
And it wasn't. It is my honest opinion about what is happening. How would else would you explain the "hillbot" behavior these "good people" are showing. What they are willing to overlook for the good of the cause is mind -boggling. The work of Milgram is of great importance. It applies to me as well as to Subir.
I agree that we should be civil here. You can check my comments here and at TOP to see if you think I am a bad actor. I have edited the comment to remove personal remarks.thx.
Stein - Baraka
2016
OK, not bad actor, but honest opinion or not, still bad manners.
For this essay in particular, it’s better if comments err on the side of excessive concern for fairness and civility — precisely because one side, in this case the OP, is so heavily outnumbered.
Thanks for editing. n/t
Dude
that's fucking real logic, cause of who he is, she can't be far right, like WTF.
I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish
"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"
Heard from Margaret Kimberley
Double posted again. Not sure how I manage so many times
to do what I do not intend to do, yet manage so rarely to do what I do intend to do.
Vast right wing conspiracy is my public position. My private position is that I mess up a lot.
Please. Hillary was fine with white supremacism when she
thought it would get her votes. Fine with celebrating the Confederacy while she was First Lady of Arkansas, too. Fine with killing Middle Easterners. In fact, she guffaws about it. Fine with denying gays equal rights until 2013.
Sorry, but it does not pay to try to put lipstick on either pig.
Remember her fake southern accent
that she maintained while Bill was Governor? Everything about her is a cynical ploy or fraud of some sort.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
She developed it after he ran and lost.
While she was developing it, she also changed her name from Hillary Rodham to Hillary Rodham Clinton and, in general, got more "Governor's wife-ish."
what fake southern accent?
OK, *not* touting HRC here, a pol whom I 'deplore' (ahem). But as one who grew up somewhat south of the Mason Dixon line AND who learned in a New England college to stop saying "ain't" and "y'all", I can attest: the southern accent comes back REAL quick when you jump into a crick full of catfish - it's like coming home. And HRC is from Arkansas, after all.
She's from Illinois
Hillary was born and raised in Illinois. She only moved to Arkansas in 1975, when she married Bill, who was from Arkansas.
(Unless I misunderstood your comment and it was meant as sarcasm.)
"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi
"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone
We have two far-right candidates, of different flavors
One is a xenophobic racist bastard trying to activate the white working class on his side; the other is an imperialist war criminal who believes in assassination, torture, and the supremacy of the rich, and isn't trying to activate any of the little people on her side. Rather, she uses the xenophobic racist bastard to frighten people into voting for her.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
The war criminal is also a racist, xenophobe. Also
Islamophobic and anti-Semitic.
One word for you:
NOPE.
Sorry, Subir, can't agree with you on this one.
Oh, but she is, subir. Or at least “an” enemy, in a key position
at a critical juncture, poised to do great (further) harm to the causes of peace, privacy, truthfulness, transparency, equality before the law, and equality of economic opportunity — to name just a few.
Anyone who reads, and not just posts on, c99 or Jackpine Radicals has seen all the reasons why, laid out over and over again.
She's certainly a climate enemy.
In addition to all of the things already listed, this is a deal-breaker for me.
We don't have time to -- pardon the expression -- dick around on climate anymore. Hillary will not get my vote.
(Slightly OT: Has anyone watched "Before the Flood" yet? We watched it last night. Very well done, I thought).
Bumping your plug for "Before the Flood"
My spouse and I also watched last night. We wept and were in awe of the magnitude of the change we need to effect, yet somehow still felt that there is at least a sliver of a possibility that the damage to the planet might be limited enough to make an eventual turnaround a possibility.
Please, this is something we all need to experience viscerally and allow to penetrate our daily conscience and inform our behavior and our choices. The change must come from the bottom up, from us all.
“ …and when we destroy nature, we diminish our capacity to sense the divine,and understand who God is, and what our own potential is and duties are as human beings.- RFK jr. 8/26/2024
I watched that too
and cried a bit too. My only quibble is it almost made Paris sound like enough of a solution, but maybe that's just my own cynicism at work. The shots of that dead coral, my God. Yes, very visceral.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Also watched
The deforestation of Indonesia for palm oil plantations was the part that really pissed me off. And I agree with you lizzy: the film was far too kind to the Paris agreement.
I was also annoyed a little at the way the film stepped back from directly advocating political change. At 50:30, having noted that the palm oil reaps huge profits for the corporations that use it in their products, DiCaprio asks "how are people supposed to avoid it? Why aren't governments setting restrictions to prevent these corporations from destroying the planet just so they can save money?" Instead of answering that very good question, the film immediately shifts to what individuals can do to decrease their own impact (eat less beef). I understand the need to give people some tools, but the likelihood of provoking the necessary change as a consequence of the aggregate of a tens of millions individual decisions strikes me as vanishingly small.
I'm voting for Jill because of the climate crisis
but Trump does have less respect for climate change than Hillary.
Beware the bullshit factories.
That's true, but not enough of a difference to vote for either.
Doing nothing versus doing not nearly enough quickly enough to avert disaster. What a choice.
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Her "travails" are totally self-inflicted
and well-deserved. And in foreign policy Clinton is doing a great imitation of a neo-fascist herself.
Then there's the "mandate"
First off, I've already voted Green here in WA, and so has my entire family (I don't know how they voted, but my son was on the fence and my wife has been snarling about "voting for VP" for months now) so it is too late to convince me or anyone I talk to anymore about this stuff in meat space.
Personally, I'm kind of resigned to a Clinton victory, so the only hope I have for the next four years is that I am wrong about her. Given that, my biggest concern right now is making sure she understands exactly what her mandate is (the one that her surrogates in the NYT have been crowing about for the past week.) This is what Bernie was trying to do in his convention speech: Nail her left foot to the floor and hope she doesn't pull it out. Voting Green makes that clear, and since you are a data guy, my data suggests that 20% of Berners will vote Green. The 75% who switched to her will probably ensure her victory, so you don't need to come here and guilt the 5% of the electorate that hangs out here into giving her a mandate that she will at best misinterpret. Her current margin is larger than that, and I see a lot more value in holding her accountable than in singing Kumbaya.
Besides, what the heck has she done for the left lately? I just got an email from Our Revolution trying to shame her into supporting the DAPL protesters. All she has done is issue a press release that her own supporter Bill McKibbon savaged as "meaningless". My own reaction was to quote Ron Weasley: "What a load of waffle."
And then there are all the leftward initiatives on the ballot nationwide: I have yet to hear a peep from her in support of things like Washington's Carbon Tax or ColoradoCare. Some leftist.
I'm pretty moderate around here, but I say that if the Dems want our votes, they need to start earning them. They could come out in support of progressive measures and movements, but instead they have spent the last two years engaged in arrogant power plays, so they have no right to complain when they are on the receiving end of one.
I know you are a loyal Berner and believe that the Democratic party can be reformed. If so, you need both a carrot and a stick. In that scenario Bernie is the carrot, but we are the stick.
We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg
Just FYI
"OurRevolution" is just Astroturf for Hillary, they won't do squat. Someone posted a great diary on that today.
I'm kind of miffed at Bernie for participating in this nonsense.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
I don't think I have ever read a more sycophantic bit of drivel
in my entire life.
Hillary Clinton is the enemy.
She is the enemy of decency.
She is the enemy of fairness.
She is the enemy of the disenfranchised.
She is the enemy of the poor around the world, not just in our nation.
She is the enemy of the planet by pushing fracking and failing to stand with the Water Protectors.
She is the GOD DAMNED ENEMY!!!!
The sooner you stop deluding yourself to this fact the sooner we may be able to start actually repairing this nation.
Only a blind fool, the completely partisan or someone incredibly comfortable with the status quo would, or could, think otherwise.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Also the enemy of the rule of law
equality under the law, and representative democracy.
Also the enemy of continued life on this planet, if her comments on our nuclear arsenal are any indication.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
The $Hill
on behalf of her corporate minders, has opposed virtually EVERY CITIZEN-SPONSORED INITIATIVE on the Colorado ballot this year (examples follow) --
Amendment T -- Involuntary Servitude (this essentially would eliminate forced prison labor) The $Hill? "No Comment"
Amendment U -- Exempt Certain Property Taxes -- The $Hill? In favor
Amendment 69 -- Establish a Statewide Healthcare System (in essence, "single payer" -- which corporacare Obama should have done, when he had the chance - Colorado is first in the nation on this one) -- The $Hill?? NO!!!
Amendment 70 -- State Minimum Wage (to start at $9.30 per hour beginning in January 2017, and increase in accordance w/COLA thereafter) -- The $Hill?? NO!!!
Proposition 106 -- Aid-in-Dying Medication (i.e., system-assisted suicide, similar to OR, WA, and many other civilized States, including NE, BG, CZ, etc.) -- The $Hill?? NO!!! (Likely would upset her conflicted christer voters too much)
etc., etc. It's all about gaining a political/power-based advantage (hence, eventual monetary rewards); no moral, ethical, or practical conviction there at all. The $Hill is a shell of a person (read: PSYCHOPATH); hence, extremely dangerous --
When Cicero had finished speaking, the people said “How well he spoke”.
When Demosthenes had finished speaking, the people said “Let us march”.
welp, i'm convinced.
too bad i voted stein on friday. maybe next time!
GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG
If only they would have told us
that the right wing hates Hillary Clinton BEFORE the early voting started. Then I so totes would have voted for Her. Because I don't vote on issues. Rather, I get myself all wrapped up emotionally in the ups and downs of the candidates' personal successes and tribulations. Their problems become MY problems. Their struggles become MY struggles. When it's her turn, it's MY turn. If her travails are undeserved, then so are mine.
I don't need that social security, after all. What I need is to bask in the glow of someone else's electoral triumph over the people who were mean to her. It's kind of like when your favorite team wins, except it only happens once every four years. I don't know if all this is healthy, but my shrink says I'm making progress.
"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum." --Noam Chomsky
Hilarious!
This needs to be a front-page editorial on every newspaper in the country.
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Wow!
That is so on-the-mark
Most of their campaign
has been "Vote for Hillary, because Trump groped a butt". Not that I advocate butt-groping among strangers of course, but it was an unusual campaign strategy.
Now that her scandals have reached critical mass, they've switched to "OMG! Nukes! Russians! Rapists!". It's as if they are allergic to substance or something.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
Oh Really?
Even Hillary rags like Politico say otherwise:
Oh yeah, and lest we forget what she did to Bernie at the Convention:
So....you were saying?
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
Thanks for reposting that video
She really summarized the debacle so well.
'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member
I tried following what happened at the
Convention but never saw this video or the extreme lengths Hillary and those in power went to shut down Bernie supporters voices. A good time to remind ourselves we still have a voice. Vote for Jill Stein.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
I followed it nearly in real time and remember when this video
was posted. I was following the posts from fellow-county and state delegates. My senate district sent one male for Bernie, so I was not eligible to run for a spot. I did make a shot at the At Large pool, but the cast from my state had overrepresentattion in my demographic.
Bernie folks made a stand with the Platform in my state. The Bernie campaign opposed the individuals who did it b/c they had not worked directly with the campaign, right up until they got several strong planks into the platform - then they were embraced. The hypocrisy made me furious. We had a rather soul-less state campaign head, unfortunately. His staff really could not point to what he'd done at the end of the season. He lied to my face about some minor politicking, so I don't respect him. Then even the most die-hard Bernie workers for the most part drank the Klinton Koolaide (b/c Trump) at Philly. From my vantage, the American experiment looks utterly coopted and lifeless.
Seeing the video again, well, she really focused on the essence of what went down tactically at Philly - she left some bits out, but it was more of the same.
One of our delegates had to step down in Philly because he erupted at a delegation breakfast - it was not pre-planned, just his mouth spoke the truth faster than his brain could shut it down after a week of being marginalized. I don't know him well, but we were aware of each other, and I could see the very human toll it took oh him. The abject disrespect from the DNC and the Clinton campaign took a toll on a lot of us.
Someone brought me an abandoned month-old kitten just after our state convention in June. He was sick as a proverbial dog for the first six weeks he was with me, and tending to him was a blessing which pushed the nonsense a bit further away as it was going down. He's robust and healthy now, thankfully. Doing better than the country is, at any rate. And I still have some shreds of sanity, thankfully - some of that is thanks to a kitten who distracted me from only watching the train wreck in real time.
Yeah, it would violate every fiber of my being to vote for someone who created the mess we're in now. I just cannot redeem this behavior with my vote. Then I would be a partial owner of it. I do not have that much disrespect for myself and for my country to do that.
'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member
Thank you for sharing your experience
The personal stuff sometimes get lost in all of this and hearing stories about the real human aspect is affirming. This recollection of yours would make a touching diary.
P.s. Glad the lil pootie survived
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
OMG, WTF, Bernie?
After watching this video and seeing what happened not just at the convention but all the other voting shenanigans that the DNC did to Bernie, how the hell can he ask anyone to vote for her?
From people being kicked off the voting rolls.
Had their party affiliations changed.
The Nevada caucus
Bill being at 4 Michigan polling places
Reid's intervention with the casino workers
Exit polls not matching up with vote tallies.
And everything else that they did to keep him from winning, I am more disgusted and disappointed that Bernie is not only campaigning for her but asking us to forget everything that was done in order for Hillary to be the nominee.
This election is invalid IMO. Hillary didn't win it fair and square. There's so much evidence showing otherwise.
There is going to be another what the fuck moments for her supporters when she goes back on her campaign promises just like Obama did.
Again, wtf Bernie? How can you look your grandchildren in the face?
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
I followed the primaries very closely.
The margin was sufficient to erase any doubt of a Clinton victory on pledged delegates. Bernie lost, perhaps it wasn't entirely fair, but it was fair enough, and it was certainly wide enough. Bernie recognizes this, and and that is why he's campaigning for HRC now.
@subirgrewal
We don't really know the scope of the manipulations, do we?
If it looks "fair enough" to you, and you are only seeing 10% of the actual infractions how reasonable is your evaluation of the primary results. If exit polling is to be trusted (as it is in European democracies who take the integrity of their elections very seriously) the scope of the disparity between certified results and exit polls is very significant. Then their are the voter registration purges and other "errors" in voter registration databases, media manipulations, and so on. In my eyes this is hardly "fair enough", it is an absolute disgrace.
“ …and when we destroy nature, we diminish our capacity to sense the divine,and understand who God is, and what our own potential is and duties are as human beings.- RFK jr. 8/26/2024
I snuff the sweet smell of bullshit......
Hogwash. The two States with sufficient delegates to make all others irrelevant -- New York and California -- were both obviously doctored all to hell in her favor.
Wrong. The only choices here are "entirely fair" or invalid. No others. No "gray areas" here. And the 2016 Democratic Primary was doctored all to hell in favor of Her Heinous. It was far from "entirely fair" -- and therefore, invalid in toto.
Give it up, subir. You might be able to sell that bullshit over in Markos Moulitsas' little asylum, but not in any congregation of thinking adult humans like c99 or Jackpine Radicals. All you're accomplishing here is to cause yourself grief, pain, and the complete loss of what was once a well-respected and even beloved reputation.
I say it again: Give it up.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
If cheating is involved,
can a victory ever be considered valid? Two DNC chairs have gone down in flames and scandal (they'll cynically keep Donna until the day after the election, so as not to endanger black turnout), and the evidence of cheating and dirty tricks just keeps rolling in.
Who could support that shit, or justify it?
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
OMG, subir. I can't believe you wrote this
Isn't that like being just a little bit pregnant?
The DNC admitted that they helped Hillary win the election and the only reason she did was because of the super delegates. Yes according to the DNC laws they are legal, but most of them have donated money to her campaign meaning that they aren't unbiased.
Jesus,the way people have pretzlelized their minds in order to throw away their values that they stood for 8 years ago when they voted for Obama over Hillary because of her Iraq war vote and the history of what she and Bill did to the poor people in this country as well as the other damage he did that helped set up the global economic crisis is fuckingunbeleiveable.
Do you know of any of the millions of people who lost their homes or pensions because he deregulated the banks and other financial institutions?
I do.
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
Credibility -- POOF!
Oh brother, this takes the cake:
And you're worried about Trump? Trump?!! And you say this? At least the Republican primary polls agreed with the primary voting.
It was not fucking fair enough. Bullshit.
The DNC had their finger on the scale THE ENTIRE TIME to give every advantage to Clinton that they possibly could.
And now do you know what their legal defense in court is? The everyone knew that the bit of a fair primary was just a 'political promise' that everyone knows is just hot air. If the DNC admits they stole the election, as their DEFENSE, you have no basis in fact to say that it was fair enough.
DNC Admits They Stole the Election From Bernie Sanders (thepoliticalinsider.com)
Is that really the world that you want to live in? The sad part is, you are digging your own grave and you cannot even see that.
DNC Lawyers Argue No Liability: Neutrality Is Merely A 'Promise' - 'Apparently Voters Were Supposed To Assume The DNC Was Biased In Favor Of Clinton Before The Primaries Even Started' (observer.com)
Tim Black did a great job explaining the reality of what happened too.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZCocpvivg4]
And you know what? Very poor people skipped things that they really needed in order to fork over $27 to Bernie. Do you think they would have done that if they knew the game was rigged from the very beginning? No, they would not have.
~OaWN
Hey Subir, did you hear the one
about Haim Saban wanting to sodomize Bernie with an arrow?
First some background, Saban (the gazillionaire) had extensive access to the campaign and it's staff, and sent many e-mails jam-packed with advice for them. Check them out yourself at Wikileaks, his e-mail prefix is "kussa".
The one I mentioned is here. Hard to believe, but there it is. The man is nearly illiterate too, who knew?
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
That’s an argument used for years against the Innocence Project
You know, if the original trial process was “fair enough,” even airtight new DNA evidence of innocence doesn’t matter.
Fair enough? Odd way of putting it.
She supposedly won about 55% of the votes, 16.9 million to Bern's 13.2 million.
Not knowing how, when or if the voting machines were hacked; given we do know the DNC put their thumbs on the scales against their own bylaws, the voter purges in places like Brooklyn where someone in charge of that just happened to receive money from Clinton, even the first roll call at the convention that went Sanders' way, Bernie Sanders supporters furious, it certainly seems reasonable to think that more than 10% of the votes were stolen from Bern.
Bernie seems to have swallowed the Fear Trump Kool-Aid. That doesn't mean we have to do likewise.
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This is the biggest bullshit argument I've ever heard
and it's about time people of good will abandon it.
How much more difficult is it for a computer to flip 50,000 votes than 5?
Get your head out of the middle of the 20th century; margin doesn't mean shit when you have fake results, especially when those results are driven by 21st-century technology.
It is not more difficult to create a fake result of a massive Hillary lead than it is to create a fake result of a small Hillary lead.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I'm not sure you want a real answer
or if that's just venting.
Love that Subir's definition of democracy is "close enough." So much for one person, one vote...
I suspect Bernie knew the fix was in before he began - that he understood there was never a shot in hell that he'd be allowed to win, but that he honestly feels that at some point the people can overtake TPTB, so he gave it a shot. I did not come to believe this until after the capitulation. Frankly, I believe he got a LOT further than he thought was possible, and I think for a couple weeks he thought there was an outside shot at actually doing it.
Others know that I believe they threatened to hurt his family - no, there never is and never will ever be a shred of evidence for such a thing, but I believe it because of the changes in his demeanor around the time he capitulated and again at Philly. No one has explained the open wound on his face when he asked the delegation to suspend the rules and 'select' Clinton.
I believe he accepted that TPTB would not tolerate an other than Clinton choice. So, he wanted to keep his powder dry and come back roaring in the new Senate. We do know he was threatened to lose his seniority if he did not capitulate. I think he feels he can be a leader through the position he already has.
What I know about Bernie is that he is internally consistent and has been for decades. I believe this makes the most sense given his actions. He's living to fight another day. They would have found a way to annihilate him politically if he did not capitulate. There's a SuperPAC hiding in plain sight with 'unlimited' amounts of money to do such 'correcting' of records.
'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member
Subir,
I used to enjoy reading your posts over at TOP. I also know that you are aware, that here at C99, this post is a turd in the punch bowl. Most of us avoid TOP now, and have no desire to even debate LOTE with you. Evil is evil, period. #JillNotHill
Edited 1 time for grammer
Small correction...
I'm pretty sure you meant to type "no desire."
Edit: Oops, see you got it already. Please ignore!
And on the subject of punchbowls, here's my re-imagining of this diary if it could be depicted in pictorial form:
Suggested caption: "Vote for me, because... Donald Trump!"
inactive account
Johnny has said that this is a nonpartisan site,
its purpose to debate the issues. Subir isn't discussing TOP. I think he has every right to post LOTE arguments here if he wants to. The rest of us can decide to argue as we are, or if you're tired of it ignore it, and it will quickly fade away. Obviously a lot of people are still up for an argument.
Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.
Way to go crbngville
This is the clearest and most concise comment in this whole mess. I heartily agree.
I commend you crbngville!
BTW, is this a record for most comments?
grammer?
Do you mean Kelsey?
He spells it "Grammer."
The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.
No, she is my enemy. Not my biggest one, but she has been
at war with me, my principles and what I believe in and have fought for for her entire political career. The traits you list are not hers, but PR spew.
She has never been a liberal except in the classic "I oppose Jim Crow laws, in the South," sense:
She is a hard core neoliberal and neocon.
She supported mass criminalization, mass incarceration and militarization of the police while declaring black youth to be "super predators" and animals.
She supported and supports de-regulation.
She supported downsizing, eliminating, and privatizing government functions.
She supports "Roe-v-Wade", but she definitely doesn't support full reproductive freedom. RvW creates a small window of time during which a woman may decide to have an abortion, after that, she may be allowed one if and only if a medical professional decides one is necessary to save her life.
Nobody knows where she really stands on gun control.
She supports and promotes so-called "Free-Trade"
She is no friend of free speech or a free press
She isn't big on fair trials and the fourth and fifth amendments, either; and supports extra-judicial assassinations
She supports "regime change" as a means of conducting foreign policy
She has a habit of supporting right-wing juntas
She supported "welfare reform" and opposed single payer health care
Before adopting semi-liberal rhetoric as part of the Reagan revolution within the Democratic Party (the DLC) she was generally, broadly, anti-left
She is a warmonger, an imperialist and an interventionist
Those are not liberal traits, not one of them
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
The silver lining on essays like this
They get the populous to come out in droves enumerating the ways Hillary is a vile, despicable entity.
There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.
this is one of my favorite discussions
it's one that I think I can come back to months, years from now and be proud of us.
It kind of drives me nuts
because the idea that Donald Trump is so much more dangerous to Black people in victory than in defeat actually has no foundation in fact. In fact, the opposite is true. I am scared to death of what's going to happen if Hillary gets in and the Trump folks assume that she got in by cheating. The hell of it is, they have justification for that assumption, given what happened in the primary.
Hillary in office, under these conditions, is the worst possible thing for increasing the race war. I should probably write an essay about this, because it's too long for a comment--but the worst thing you can do with racists is give them an actual, real, justification for feeling cheated and hard done by. The one thing that's motivated every racist I've ever talked to (and as a white Southerner, I've talked to many) is a sense of grievance: that something they deserve has been taken away from them by unjust means. There's nothing that's gonna stir that nest of hornets up worse than Hillary Clinton in office after she blatantly stole the primary from Bernie. Not that they care about Bernie, but they rightly believe her behavior there shows that she is fine with election fraud, and they will assume that she has stolen the election from Donald Trump. I am actually frightened of what their response will be. The fact that she's colossally unpopular makes it worse: there won't be any coalition rallying around her to oppose the Trumpistas. People will stay home, keep their heads down, and hope to survive.
If Trump gets in, with 59% unfavorables, meaning that nearly 60% of the American people dislike and distrust him, a mighty coalition would spring up against him and all his views, just the same way that a mighty coalition arose in response to Bush, Scott Walker, and the government of North Carolina. Because the people can't stand Trump, everything he says and does is going to be the focus of criticism. In fact, having such an unpopular person spouting racist bullshit from the Oval Office is likelier to inspire something like a Moral Monday movement 50 times bigger than the current one than it is likely to inspire a bunch of brownshirts going on murder sprees in Black neighborhoods. Those brownshirts are far more likely to show up if they think Hillary stole the election from Donald.
Nobody seems to take the time to think about these sorts of things; everyone's acting like America is a big sheet of blank paper and the President is a printing press, pushing his ideas and beliefs onto America's tabula raza and defining America for the 4 or 8 years he occupies the seat. That's a really monarchist assumption (and that bugs me too).
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
A diary on this would be good I think
you make some great, scary points. That sense of grievance is the lifeblood of the Tea Party nutsos already. The things you point out are just the reason I stopped short of a Giant Meteor sticker on my car - I voted Stein but just wanted the sticker for the sentiment - but I don't want any truly disgruntled Trump fan to do something to me for having that sticker, like I would have helped Shillary get in somehow. I know, bit paranoid maybe, but you never know. And I can be an asshole on the road, I learned to drive in LA and some things are real hard to unlearn. All I need is to cut off the wrong idiot one day, with some sticker somehow making me at fault for a Shillary win....
Yes, he's the face of the monster the Tea Party created and I still think one who Shillary is using to win, and that monster got away from them all of them. And it isn't going anywhere either.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
"And it isn't going anywhere either."
Aside from using the monster to "justify" an increase in the police state we all live under, perhaps even a genuine martial-law-style crackdown, what the hell is Hillary going to do to protect Black and brown people?
This is merely a domestic version of using terrorist attacks to "justify" the War on Terror. You'll notice the terrorists, and their attacks, don't go away. Neither will the domestic version, for a very good reason: those crimes are generating credibility for some very bad people. Where would Hillary be without violent racists? The same place George W. Bush would be without al-Qaeda.
They build their credibility on a foundation of dead bodies.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Cheers
CSTS, you have an amazing ability to break things down to root causes.
Thank you!
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
The Damage of Donald Drumpf Has Been Done Already.
He started this fire. Hillary will pour gas on it. I'm scared of this too, was thinking of trying my luck at a novel for the november novel thingie...
A domestic crackdown is likely given that sentiment, a failed economy, and war footing. I think this happening with Hillary is a given, and her silence on Standing Rock is deafening in this regard. To top off this terrible sundae we have complete support of the Establishment Sociopaths -- bankers, neocons, MIC, and big corporate CEOs.
Her relationship with bankers and other econogods doesn't bode well for us rabble.
I'm far more concerned with life under Hillary than life under Drumpf.
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
There's a november novel thingie?
Do tell. I might be interested too.
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