you are making claims about what Trump "will do" and I am making statements about what Hillary HAS DONE.

Your claims are speculation.

I am discussing FACT. I am discussing what Hillary has done and must be prosecuted and imprisoned for doing. I sincerely hope you can see the difference.

that's why people wanted them--

also, because each of them actually speaks some truths that are not spoken by anybody else in politics.

It's just that I don't think Trump means even 1/2 what he says--I think it's all theatrics to him. Donations to Hill in '06? Inviting them to his wedding? Chelsea and what's-her-name BFFs? Bill Clinton calling him before he got into the race? It all has a familiar smell: the smell of Clinton sleaze.

But I can understand how somebody who didn't believe Trump was collaborating w/the Clintons would be most positive about Trump and Bernie--Trump and Bernie are pretty much the only candidates from the two major parties who have spoken ANY truth about ANYTHING.

If Hillary is elected she will have the support of both democrats and republicans in both houses because her agenda is basically republican,

If Trump is elected, he will be opposed by any politician with half a brain, because it will not bode well for their own re-election.

Both have deplorable agendas, so the decision is: who is more likely to be stymied?

The answer is Trump.

I'm not saying I'm voting for him - I'm truly undecided.

Wish I could remember who made this point, to assign proper credit. But I thought it was a good point, deserving of far wider distribution.

Well,the facts tell us it was the republican machine that damn near brought down the US economy. The facts tell us the economy was quite well most of the Clinton Administration, and the facts tell us the economy since 2008 has been stable but mostly lethargic and part of that is due to a horrible republican congress and partly due to Democrats assholish austerity for the 99% in 2009-10. If one looks at the facts surely one would conclude a much higher probability of destroying the country with a republican president than a Democratic president.

Wed, 09/14/2016 - 12:50pm — CantStoptheSignal

Wish I were as sanguine as you.

Then again, not sure we survived the first two terms very well, what with NAFTA, CAFTA, a deregulated financial industry, welfare "reform," the Crime Bill....the Telecommunications Act....

You couldn't ask for a better preparation for the wreckage we now inhabit.

If I may add to your comment? that under the Bush 2 initiated, Hillary-promoted TPP and other corporate coups, there will be no regulation of any involved corporations/industries permitted in the interests of once-citizens-turned-corporate/billionaire-serfs by an illegal and traitorous signature, only the off-shored and uncontestable corporate regulation of the citizens and country for the immediate, short-term maximized profiteering of big funders/TPTB involved.

I don't see why anyone participating in, as example, the financial sector would support this except for those potentially rigging/taking advantage of financial markets for their own benefit, perhaps as planned recipients of everybody else's invested money which will vanish somewhere in each global market crash and/or of the doubtless enforced taxpayer bail-outs while any tax-money remains after all of the law-suits and crashes which will ensue and the lack of virtually anyone below multi-multi-millionaire level earning enough to survive, never mind buy things and/or pay taxes. Of course, I also don't see how anyone could countenance the destruction of the very concept of democracy/civilization and the extermination of the results (including oxygen) of billions of years of evolution forming our global life support system within possibly a very few decades or less simply in order to more rapidly add to a fund of money in many cases already far exceeding anything they could reasonably ever spend.

But under Wall St. Hillary's corporate management and these corporate coups, there assuredly will be massive and repeated financial crashes - with various derivative and other scams produced by The Right People protected by it being made illegal in already prearranged-to-be-Fast-Tracked 'trade deals' to prevent or prosecute and, it appears probable, all warnings to prospective victims made illegal as well, as having potential to impede the maximized anticipated future profits of whichever corporation/billionaire has been declared entitled to scam other market investors freely by involvement in an unconstitutional 'trade deal'.

Since they'll all wind up cannibalizing each other after draining public pensions and smaller investors, leaving nobody else to parasitize, nobody will be safe from these and profitable-for-some-insiders market crashes in the Borgia atmosphere. But psychopaths always figure they're smarter than everyone else and therefore will always come out alright, even when sawing off the branch they also stand upon...

The whole concept of polluting industries, corporations and the wealthiest being above all law except that which they inflict themselves on the poors on a global basis - and the fact that it hasn't yet been laughed out of court in all countries - indicates real malice in Dunderland stuff...

This was from 2014, for Pete's sake!

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/03/countries-rejecting-trade-deal-pr...

Countries Rejecting Trade Deal Provisions that Let Investors Override National Regulation
Posted on March 29, 2014 by Yves Smith

This is a welcome bit of good news. Countries are finally standing up for the rule of law over rule by multinational corporation. ...

... These companies are not suing for actual expenses or loss of assets; they are suing for loss of potential future profits. They are basically acting as if their profit in a particular market was guaranteed absent government action. And no one else enjoys these rights. Consider highly paid workers in nuclear plants. Will they get payments commensurate with the premium they’ve lost over the balance of their working lives from the phaseout of nuclear power? Will cigarette vendors in Australia get compensated for the decline in their sales? Commerce involves risk, which means exposure to loss, yet foreign investors want, and seem able to get, “heads I win, tails you lose” deals via these trade agreements. ...

... The system empowering investors to sue governments in an international tribunal, thus bypassing national laws and courts, is a subject of controversy in Malaysia because it is part of the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA) which the country is negotiating with 11 other countries.

The investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS) system is contained in free trade agreements (especially those involving the United States) and also in BITS which countries sign among themselves to protect foreign investors’ rights.

When these treaties containing ISDS were signed, many countries did not know they were opening themselves to legal cases that foreign investors can take up under loosely worded provisions that allow them to win cases where they claim they have not been treated fairly or that their expected revenues have been expropriated. ...

... South Africa had also been sued by a British mining company which claimed losses after the government introduced policies to boost the economic capacity of the blacks to redress apartheid policies.

India is also reviewing its BITS, after many companies filed cases after the Supreme Court cancelled their 2G mobile communications licences in the wake of a high-profile corruption scandal linked to the granting of the licences. ...

... Brigitte Zypries, a junior economy minister, told the German parliament that Berlin was determined to exclude arbitration rights from the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) deal, according to the Financial Times.

“From the perspective of the [German] federal government, US investors in the European Union have sufficient legal protection in the national courts,” she said.

The French trade minister had earlier voiced opposition to ISDS, while a report commissioned by the UK government also pointed out problems with the mechanism.

The European disillusionment has two causes.

ISDS cases are also affecting the countries. Germany has been taken to ICSID by a Swedish company Vattenfall which claimed it suffered over a billion euros in losses resulting from the government’s decision to phase out nuclear power after the Fukushima disaster.

And the European public is getting upset over the investment system. Two European organisations last year published a report showing how the international investment arbitration system is monopolised by a few big law firms, how the tribunals are riddled with conflicts of interest and the arbitrary nature of tribunal decisions. ...

Reckless endangerment and consequence-free draining/murder/destruction of the public and environment by self-interested corporations/billionaires for personal profit at others expense being made mandatory by public officials sworn to serve the countries and people they betray isn't in the mandate of any government or anyone/group at all.

(Bolding, italics and underlining mine. Also wondering if the Ambassador who seems to have been threatening the Haitian government on behalf of Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and the corporations/'elites' enjoying and demanding the continuance of virtual or actual slave labour wages [work for food or for enough money to buy a little food and probably nothing else] rather than accept an increase of minimum wages to less than 1/4 of bare living costs, so still at slave wages] was one of the many who, I've read, have been revealed to have paid up to/in the area of a million dollars to become an Ambassador of a quite different sort from those generally visualized in this day and age.)

http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-suppressed-haitis-minimum-wage/

Haitian Wages
A meme that claims that the State Department under Hillary Clinton fought to keep Haiti's minimum wage from reaching $0.61 an hour is correct, but lacks context.
Brooke Binkowski
Updated: Apr 05, 2016

... Today, child labor and trafficking are endemic in Haiti, particularly in the country's manufacturing sector, which is outsourced to foreign companies (many of them contractors for American companies, such as Hanes, Dockers, and Fruit of the Loom). Even when they are not trafficked, laborers in Haiti's garment industry earn a pittance by the standards of other countries: the minimum wage was $0.24 (USD) an hour for many years.

In June 2009, the Haitian Parliament unanimously passed a law requiring that the minimum wage be raised to $0.61 an hour, or $5 a day. (The average cost of living is estimated to be the equivalent of about $23 a day.) This pay raise was staunchly opposed by foreign manufacturers who had set up shop in the country, and the United States Department of State and the U.S. Agency for International Development backed those manufacturers. After Haiti's government mandated the raise, the United States aggressively (and successfully) pushed Haiti's president to lower the minimum wage for garment workers to what factory owners were willing to pay: the equivalent of about $0.31 an hour (or $2.50 per eight-hour day).

In 2011, WikiLeaks released a set of previously-secret diplomatic cables. The American publication The Nation partnered with Haitian news organization Haïti Liberté to cover them, finding (among other things) how strongly the United States had opposed the minimum wage hike:

To resolve the impasse between the factory owners and Parliament, the State Department urged quick intervention by then Haitian President René Préval.

“A more visible and active engagement by Préval may be critical to resolving the issue of the minimum wage and its protest ‘spin-off’—or risk the political environment spiraling out of control,” argued US Ambassador Janet Sanderson in a June 10, 2009, cable back to Washington.

Two months later Préval negotiated a deal with Parliament to create a two-tiered minimum wage increase—one for the textile industry at about $3 per day and one for all other industrial and commercial sectors at about $5 per day.

Still the US Embassy wasn't pleased. A deputy chief of mission, David E. Lindwall, said the $5 per day minimum “did not take economic reality into account” but was a populist measure aimed at appealing to “the unemployed and underpaid masses.” ...

... So it's true that the State Department (then led by Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State) strongly opposed a minimum wage increase in Haiti in 2009. However, the State Department's efforts did not occur in a political or economic vacuum, and Clinton wasn't the sole architect of efforts to quash a minimum wage hike (as the meme suggests). It was a concerted effort on the part of Haitian elites, factory owners, free trade proponents, U.S. politicians, economists, and American companies that kept the minimum wage so low, and to lay the blame squarely at the feet of any sitting Secretary of State would be an incomplete assessment, and thus inaccurate.

A law establishing a new minimum wage of $5.11 per workday ($0.64 an hour) was finally approved in 2014, which still fell far short of both the demanded raise by workers (to the equivalent of $11.36 per workday, or $1.42 per hour) and the recommended daily wage of $22.86.

So, I expect that the Hillbots will argue that, as a joint effort between

elites, factory owners, free trade proponents, U.S. politicians, economists, and American companies

to retain starvation wages resulting in human trafficking of children as slaves receiving food and shelter* and not entirely just the global fracking and Bush-initiated TPP-promoting US Secretary of State's Hillary's effort to serve these self-interests at the cost of the suffering people, that's alright then! As it will be when President Hillary, in conjunction with

elites, factory owners, free trade proponents, U.S. politicians, economists, and American companies

does this to us all. I wonder what price per pound trafficked North American and European children will go for on the unregulated financial market...

(Bolding mine)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=94751408

Around the Nation

Inhumane Child Labor Conditions Persist In Haiti

September 18, 2008

Restavec Foundation

Some of the most vulnerable victims of the hurricane in Haiti are known as "Restavecs," children given away by their own families to perform domestic labor in exchange for food and shelter.

Jean-Robert Cadet, an author and former child laborer, describes his own childhood experience and his work with Haitian "restavecs". Cadet says working conditions for many restavecs are the equivalent of modern-day slavery.

Great to know that Hill's good with that! We can all compete with and for the lowest available wage - that being some sort of food and (hopefully) shelter in return for labour - on a global basis, for the honour of being poisoned and worked to death in a dying and polluted world, knowing that our children aren't all that likely to outlive us, wherever they may be, and assuming that they're being actually fed and sheltered in return for labour, while we enable maximized corporate/billionaire profits for a very few. Being on the 'X' marking a direct hit in that 'limited' multi-country nuclear attack war Clinton's planning on starting begins to look better all the time...

Hill supports a decent life for ('elite') women and their children, Whose Lives Really Do Matter, and who might vacation at some point in Haiti, in some of those nice resorts there.

(Bolding/italics mine)

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/28/world/americas/haiti-hotel-clinton/index.html

Clinton Foundation facilitates $45 million Haiti hotel deal

By the CNN Wire Staff

Updated 7:28 PM ET, Mon November 28, 2011

Two years after a 7.0-magnitude earthquake leveled Haiti's capital, a deal brokered by former President Bill Clinton's charitable foundation will add new lodging for aid workers and other travelers to Port-au-Prince -- in the form of a $45 million hotel.
With only about 500 operable hotel rooms, the city has limited space to house aid workers, potential investors and other visitors, according to a news release Monday by the future hotel's owner and its operator.
Caribbean cell phone provider Digicel will own the hotel, which will have 173 new rooms and create 175 new jobs. Marriott Hotels and Resorts will operate the hotel upon completion in 2014. Construction is set to begin in 2012.
Clinton praised the project for creating jobs and attracting visitors in a statement from the William J. Clinton Foundation. "My foundation has worked with both Marriott and Digicel, and encouraged them to form this partnership," the president said.
The Clinton Foundation "visited proposed construction sites with the parties and facilitated introductions to the Haitian government and the Haitian Tourism Association," according to Digicel and Marriott. ...

(Bolding and italics mine)
http://freebeacon.com/issues/emails-clinton-foundation-donor-lobbied-sta...

Emails: Clinton Foundation Donor Lobbied State Department for Haiti Hotels
Foundation donor emailed State Department Chief of Staff Cheryl Mills

BY: Alana Goodman
October 19, 2015 5:00 am

A donor to the Clinton Foundation reached out to Hillary Clinton’s office to promote a Haiti hotel project that later received support from the U.S. government and Bill Clinton, according to emails released by the Department of State.

Richard L. Friedman, a Boston hotel developer emailed Cheryl Mills, Clinton’s chief of staff, to tout the project on May 17, 2011. ...

... Friedman said he recently had a discussion with Hillary Clinton at the White House and asked Mills to forward her a note for him. It is unclear what he and Clinton discussed, and portions of his email have been redacted by the State Department due to “personal private interests.” The note he asked Mills to send to Clinton is also redacted. ...

... Mills forwarded Friedman’s full email to Clinton and her scheduler, Lona Valmoro, on June 7 with the note “See highlight—resending.” The copy released by the State Department does not indicate which portion of the email Mills highlighted. ...

... He is not the only Clinton donor associated with Marriott’s efforts in Haiti. The company Digicel Group teamed up with Marriott International in 2011 in Port-au-Prince to build a luxury hotel, which opened earlier this year.

Digicel has contributed between $25,000 and $50,000 to the Clinton Foundation, and its owner, the Irish billionaire Denis O’Brien, has donated between $5 million and $10 million. Unigestion Holdings, a subsidiary of Digicel that was reportedly tasked with managing the hotel project, gave between $10,000 and $25,000.

Marriott International is also a hefty donor to the Clinton Foundation, contributing between $50,000 and $100,000.

According to a Marriott press release on Nov. 28, 2011, the Clinton Foundation helped arrange the partnership between the hotel group and Digicel.

The Port-au-Prince hotel project continued to work closely with the Clinton Foundation during the construction process. ...

...Bill Clinton attended the hotel’s opening, where he thanked Marriott for “giving all of you the chance to show the real Haiti to the world that will come to this hotel.”

Marriott has received support for its hotel projects from the U.S. government and affiliated international donor groups. In 2012, the Overseas Private Investment Corporation, a U.S. government entity whose budget is linked to the State Department, pledged to provide long-term loans of up to $200 million to help finance Marriott International “environmentally-sustainable” hotel construction in “emerging markets” in the Middle East, Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean.

The International Finance Corporation, a member of the World Bank Group whose U.S. funding is also linked to the State Department appropriations, provided $26.5 million in financing to help construct the Port-au-Prince Marriott in 2013.

The luxury accommodations are Haiti’s “first internationally branded hotel,” according to the Clinton Foundation website.

Marriott announced earlier this month that it plans to open 60 additional hotels in the Caribbean and Latin America by 2018.

Watchdogs said the lack of transparency in this matter is unacceptable.

“Wherever government money or support tied to the State Department is directed to a project in Haiti involving a major donor to the Clinton Foundation, the public is entitled to full transparency,” said Ken Boehm, chairman of the National Legal and Policy Center, a government watchdog group. ...

(Bolding mine)
http://www.clintonbushhaitifund.org/programs/entry/oasis/

In this video, learn more about the importance of the Oasis Hotel
for construction workers, employees, investors, and the future of Haiti.
See more in the Oasis Hotel Photo Gallery.

Just 100 of Haiti's less than 500 business class hotel rooms survived the earthquake, and today Haiti has a critical shortage of hotel rooms that meet basic international standards. For Haiti's recovery to be sustainable, the country must attract businesses and investors who will need a business class, seismically safe hotel staffed by highly-trained hospitality workers. The Oasis Project meets this need, with far reaching impact.
The Oasis Hotel

The Clinton Bush Haiti Fund made a nearly $2M equity investment in the Oasis Hotel. The $29 million, Haitian-owned, 130-room hotel and retail space will be managed by Occidental Hotels and Resorts. Though original construction was abruptly halted following the earthquake, the new project sends a powerful message that Haiti is “open for business.” ...

https://nonprofitquarterly.org/2011/07/20/clinton-foundation-charged-wit...

Clinton Foundation Charged with Providing Shoddy and Dangerous Emergency Shelters in Haiti
By Rick Cohen | July 20, 2011

July 17, 2011; Source: Toronto Star | The co-founder of Partners in Health, Paul Farmer, has a new book out on his experience in delivering assistance, both through PIH and as the UN’s deputy special envoy to Haiti working with special envoy Bill Clinton. In “Haiti after the Earthquake,” Farmer writes about a subject that has become something of a scandal for the Clinton Foundation.

In his book, Farmer recounts accompanying President Clinton on a visit to temporary shelters that were constructed for displaced Haitians: “The model t-shelter Clinton visited was inhabited by a woman who had nothing good to say about her new home. She launched a stream of invective in Creole even as the disaster-relief folks were describing, in English, the sturdiness of the t-shelters — ‘these are built to withstand high winds and to serve as transitional shelters that can tide people over until more permanent shelters are built; they’re much safer than tents.’ The model inhabitant scowled and complained, ‘Who would want to live in a house like this? The walls could be split open with a kitchen knife.’” ...

http://www.wnd.com/2016/08/hillary-helped-crook-get-10-million-for-haiti...

Hillary helped 'crook' get $10 million for Haiti scam
500 earthquake victims without homes as Clinton Foundation donor steals cash
Published: 08/23/2016

Meet convicted felon Claudio Osorio, the Miami man serving a 12-year prison sentence who scammed American taxpayers out of $10 million and Haiti earthquake victims out of 500 homes – all with the help of the Clintons.

Osorio, 54, a pal of Bill and Hillary Clinton and President Obama, is a Clinton Foundation donor. He even hosted fundraisers for them at his waterfront home in Florida.

After the catastrophic 2010 earthquake in Haiti, Osorio collected millions from the Overseas Private Investment Corporation, a federal agency that operates under the U.S. State Department.

And the Clinton State Department helped him get the $10 million for his phony project because he was a donor to the foundation. In fact, the Associated Press reported Tuesday that at least 85 Clinton Foundation donors met with Hillary at the State Department. ...

... But the Haiti project never happened.

The 500 families would never live in their new homes.

And taxpayers would never recoup the $10 million.

Instead, Osorio used the funds to live an extravagant lifestyle and pay for illegal business schemes ...

... Osorio ultimately pleaded guilty to three conspiracies of wire fraud and money laundering. A judge sentenced him to 12 and a half years in prison.

“Not one [home] was ever built,” Judicial Watch reported, “and no one has been held accountable for giving the crooked businessman millions of taxpayer dollars.”

As the AP reported Monday, half of all the people outside of the government who met with Hillary Clinton during her time at the State Department had donated money to the Clinton Foundation. According to the report, 85 donors gave as much as $156 million. At least 40 people contributed more than $100,000 each. Another 20 donated at least $1 million each. ...

... The news agency continued: “The meetings between the Democratic presidential nominee and foundation donors do not appear to violate legal agreements Clinton and former president Bill Clinton signed before she joined the State Department in 2009. But the frequency of the overlaps shows the intermingling of access and donations, and fuels perceptions that giving the foundation money was a price of admission for face time with Clinton. Her calendars and emails released as recently as this week describe scores of contacts she and her top aides had with foundation donors.”

We can see what great things Hillary - who 'gets things done' - did in Haiti and how terrific her judgment is and where her priorities are.
(Bolding/italics mine)
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/05/clinton-foundation-haiti-...

The King and Queen of Haiti

There’s no country that more clearly illustrates the confusing nexus of Hillary Clinton’s State Department and Bill Clinton’s foundation than Haiti—America’s poorest neighbor.

By Jonathan M. Katz

May 04, 2015

... Five years after the hemisphere’s deadliest single natural disaster, when both Clintons assumed leading roles in the rebuilding efforts, little progress has been made on many core problems in Haiti, and the government that Hillary Clinton helped put in power during that January 2011 trip—and that both Clintons have backed strongly since—has proven itself unworthy of that trust. Economic growth is stalling, and the nation’s politics look headed for a showdown in the next year that could once again plunge the country into internal strife.

A World Bank study released in December showed that despite modest declines in extreme poverty—mainly in the capital, Port-au-Prince—Haiti remains the poorest and most economically depressed country on the continent, with the richest 20 percent of households accounting for 64 percent of the country’s total income. (The bottom one-fifth of the population earns less than 1 percent.) The report warned that impending political instability could quickly reverse the few gains made since the earthquake.

Hillary Clinton once hoped that Haiti would be the shining jewel of her foreign policy. But far from transforming this poorest of countries, many of the Clintons’ grandest plans and promises remain little more than small pilot projects—a new set of basketball hoops and a model elementary school here, a functioning factory there—that have done little to alter radically the trajectory of the country. Visiting some of their projects over the course of an April research trip affirmed as much about their tenuousness as about the limited benefits they’ve provided. Many of the most notable investments the Clintons helped launch, such as the new Marriott in the capital, have primarily benefited wealthy foreigners and island’s ruling elite, who needed little help to begin with. ...

... When Hillary Clinton became secretary of state in 2009, America’s poorest neighbor was slated to be one of the first beneficiaries of what she called “the power of proximity.” One of her first directives at State was to review U.S. policy toward Haiti—“an opportunity,” she would write in her memoir Hard Choices, “to road-test new approaches to development that could be applied more broadly around the world.” That approach had business at its center: Aid would be replaced by investment, the growth of which would in turn benefit the United States. Underscoring the importance of the policy, she tasked her chief of staff—former Clinton White House deputy counsel Cheryl Mills—to oversee the Haiti review personally. ...

So, to anyone thinking of voting for Hillary, please, think more carefully.

Hillary's 'new', corporate-controlled approach to development will not just be more broadly applied to the rest of the world, but to all non-billionaires/major corporate interests/investors/political donors.

They will be applied to you, personally, to your children, your family, friends, your pets and, as one of the relative poors not being a multi, multi millionaire and therefore worth nothing but the shaking out of your pockets, you won't like it any more than the rest of us do/will.

Effective is the key word here. As Bernie has showed there is a left in politics in the US.

Democrats who fought back against Republicans was continuing to vote for Democrats who did not fight back against Republicans. Bill Clinton was responsible for DADT. He signed DOMA. He got NAFTA passed when Poppy failed. He lobbied Democrats hard for repeal of Glass Steagall and the Commodities Futures Modernization Act of 2000. He ended welfare as we know it. He was working on ending Social Security. And we kept voting for New Democrats because they were the lesser of two evils.

She is all for reining in the banks and other financial institutions, big on talking about student loan debt, reinstating Glass Steagall and other banking reforms, yet instead of endorsing the candidate that best reflected her values, she didn't and then endorsed the candidate whose husband was responsible for removing Glass Steagal.
Yes, I find her very interesting.

We focus on Hillary, but New Democrats, which the Clintons helped create, make me nauseous.