Why HRC is Better Than Trump
UPDATE 2:06 PM PST
Well, that escalated quickly. To sum up my comments.
1. I am truly sorry for the timing of this diary. Yuuge mistake.
2. Sorry for using words that, due to my ignorance, I did not realize were triggers: "hate, purity, emotional, cookie" these have been marked as the sure sign of trollism, and I am sorry I let such words further undermine already very unpopular opinion.
3. To those I pissed off, or set off their troll alarms - I hate to grovel, but I am not above asking you to please forgive my shoddy timing and word choice, and not let this diary define my presence here. I have learned a lot here, and felt welcomed, and been thrilled to have a new place to go after leaving TOP. A troll I am not, and will never be. Hopefully, I haven't created a situation where I just get dismissed out of hand, but if so I guess I brought it on myself.
UPDATE 5:26 AM:
Thank you all for commenting. As usual, I learned a lot from the discussion. There were some not thrilled, and I get it. My timing was for shit, first and foremost. And I want you to know there tonight for Bernie's speech.
twitter.com/SqueakBaxter/status/740439072502652939
It is an emotional time. We all have to deal in our own way. Mine is to convince everybody to do something I already know they don't want to do, at the worst possible time, when I myself get to vote for Jill Stein because I am in Cali. I think editorial discretion is the lesson here. But to those who read and commented, thank you, and I hope you didn't get too pissed off.
First, this is not the best time for this, but it was a comment I left on a previous diary and I thought it was substantial enough to make it's own, so here it is.
I know this lesser of two evils argument is hated around here, and rightfully so. But I still feel I can make the case that if the #PoliticalRevolution can ONLY have Clinton or Trump this year, and Bernie does not go independent, that it IS MUCH better for the Movement to have a President Clinton than a President Trump. I will never tell anyone they SHOULD vote for HRC, especially if they view their vote as a pure expression of their beliefs. And I respect #BernieOrBust to the utmost. However, personally, and this is just me (he said putting up his hands like Vince Vaughn might) , I look at a vote as a strategic choice. Strategically, IMHO, it is MUCH better to have Clinton. Here is why.
1. The Supreme Court-This is obviously the heart of most lesser of two evils arguments, which makes it a hated device amongst the left, which it should be. The thing is, we hate it because it works, and it works because it has to. Anybody who understands politics understands that the Court is key because of it's power, but also because bad picks last a lifetime, and they do damage. If you don't understand what Scalia, Rheinquist, et al, along with the Federalist Society have done to this country, then you probably won't buy this argument. But if you know, then you really know. That damage is not so easily undone.
2. Power begets power. Anybody living in a red state will tell you that as soon as the GOP gets any real power they start fucking shit up right away, Flint style, Scott Walker Style, Kansas Tax Cut style, Texas Abortion Style, etc. But also, through politicizing of every sector of government, and downright using their positions of authority to straight up cheat, the GOP finds ways to get MORE power and make it MUCH harder for the Movement to gain traction.
Right now, the GOP has the House, Senate, states, and half the court. Trump is no run of the mill Republican, but HE WILL DO WHAT THEY WANT except on pet issues. And protecting rights and NOT expanding power exponentially is not one of his pet issues. GOP full control is a scary thing. The Iraq War, and a lot of other bad shit, happened the last time that was the case. With so many GOP held offices around the country, HRC would be a bit of a countervailing force.
3. My most original argument:
If Trump is President, WE FIGHT HIM. BUT,
there will be violent youth riots in reaction to racist policies, which will bring a police crackdown and suburban backlash. This is the WORST thing that could happen to the left.
If Clinton is President, WE FIGHT HER. BUT,
the youth will protest injustices of all kinds, instead of riot, and we will organize and pressure Dems-THAT IS MUCH MORE PLEASANT
4. National Security
This one is a tough call. But Trump IS erratic, unstable, unfit, and his party is filled with belligerent jerks who could easily bully him into action. I think there is little chance of us committing non-Special Forces ground troops anywhere under either Trump or HRC, due to $$ and war fatigue in both parties, but Trump is an embarrassing and dangerous nightmare on the world stage.
HRC is not a warmonger, but she is FULL ON MIC. Cheney was a warmonger. HRC, Biden, and Kerry were cowards in their Iraq vote. They wanted tough-guy credibility. Kerry felt he got burned when he voted against Gulf War 1, and it "went well," so he was a yes. HRC wanted to be a post 9-11 President. She has no conscience. But warmonger? No.
The weapons deals to the middle east? Yes they are terrible, but this IS US policy right now. Why? First, unfortunately exports are good for the economy even when they are machines of death. Second, and more importantly, we are selling them shitloads of arms to fight in their regional conflicts, because we are telling them that WE won't do for them what we used to, militarily, with our forces. And that is actually good.
So basically, if it's Trump or Clinton, we must FIGHT them tooth and nail. Strategically, and to mitigate a new level of race-baiting, I would rather FIGHT Clinton.
So there you have my well-reasoned yet certainly unpopular opinion. As I say, thank you for reading and commenting if you like. And as always, I wish I could give you a cookie. But, as always, this thing just doesn't work like that.
Comments
Hard to swallow
"The funny thing is, I AM going to vote for Jill Stein"
Really? And you went to a lot of trouble to write a pro Hillary post because you plan to vote for Stein? When the CA votes have been barely counted you were busy writing a 'Vote for Hillary' post because you plan to vote for Stein? Hard to swallow.
Hence my apology for the timing-You are right
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
"Oh, that reminds me,"
says mainstream media. "We need to figure out what to do with Jill Stein. Do we ignore her, or do we have to put all that effort into marginalizing her?"
"The real power is in the hands of small groups of people and I don't think they have titles. -- Bob Dylan"
TPTB are going to learn real quickly
that The Green Party is about to explode in membership.
That's what a lot of these trial balloons are about today, including this post. If it does nothing else (and it did a few things), it will demonstrate that Hillary Clinton is still in big fucking trouble if she wants to be fairly elected.
Agree
I started following Stein's Twitter feed a few days ago. I know the Green Party has had problems, but parties are what its members make of them, and it may be the Greens just need an influx to reach a critical mass, as it has in other countries.
Supporting lotlizard...
It also belongs here. We do not want to be an echo chamber for each other as top currently is.
Many of us totally disagree with the premise of this essay and perhaps a phrase or two used, but the writer has been respectful and even solicitous in approach.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
They have
it's all in the writer's approach and I believe the poster here is actually doing so in good faith. If they're not, it will eventually make itself known, one way or another. Thus, it is really best that we try hard not to make blanket accusations of "troll" because we are better than that. If you're gonna do it cuz you really can't help yourself, drop it in one comment and bolt the post and let it go. Admins around here are pretty damned savvy--if it's a real troll, they'll out themselves and they will be done.
In the meantime, the discussion is healthy. It is. I will never vote for HRC, but I don't mind talking about why that is. There is plenty of material for discussion, and the more healthy we talk it through, the better off we will ALL be.
Thank you
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
Let's face it, we'll be dealing with enough of these people in
real life to need the practice at refuting their laughably weak sauce of an argument for supporting HRH HRC.
Besides, I've only seen two of these (including this one) since this site began adding new members recently, so, it's easy to put up with it now.
"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
-- John Lennon
Oh, please!!
As long as you read first,
As long as you read first, and hate later, I'm cool with that. And don't be mean about it. As I said, I respect BernieOrBust to the utmost and will in fact vote for Jill Stein in Dem safe CA.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
You're sure quick to call everything hate
Honestly? That's some pretty common shorthand at this point
I'm mixed on the veracity of this post, but the use (or over-use, if you prefer) of "hate" isn't why
Context is key
Of course, you're right, in many contexts, "hate" is a shorthand, or is used with a bit of ironic hyperbole. "I hate celery" or "I hate Ryan Seacrest" etc. etc.
But it's also been the case from the beginning of the primary, HRC supporters deflected serious criticism of Clinton as "hate" (i.e. emotional, not logical; upleasantly irrational and extreme, not sane/balanced). It is a term used to imply that criticism of Clinton is not based in fact, reason, or a sane appreciation of reality. It is no accident that the OP followed up on his/her post by saying oh, I see that you all are emotional. It's about framing the opposition as nutty or childish--an indirect ad hominem.
Without a doubt
I think most regulars here got this right away, if they missed similarities to it in the post:
the coop dee Gracie was agreeing their timing was bad.
If you can come up with a list of more than three things that look out-of-place in any given post, you can say with some certainty that you got your answer.
So you are saying that really
So you are saying that really do I think I am a troll? Well, I will blame my carelessness on using words like "hate, cookie, purity, and emotional" because these seem to be triggers for IDing a troll. And I actually can understand that, so I have to live with the fact that I undermined my own argument with careless word choice. But it was 3 in the morning for me. I guess I failed my 3 am phone call, but I am no troll. And I hope you will not discount me completely for one diary.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
My issue has nothing to do with whether you're a troll
or not. It's that you really think you had something new and important to share. It has a condescending tone for people who breathe politics daily. Personally, I'm 70 years old and wore a Stevenson button to school every day when I was six. (That's Adlai Stevenson in 1952) I need you to explain the ramifications of my well-thought-out decision to abstain from the presidential election this year like I need a second navel. If you are at least 18 years old, a citizen of the US, and registered to vote in your state, you have the right to vote this year. You don't have the right to condescend to me because you think I should vote. If you're so concerned, get off your ass and go find some non-voter to take my place.
I see your point about adding nothing of value for people here
I understand much better now, that my diary, however well-intentioned, is not necessary in this space. And that is due to that very fact, as you state, of the knowledge and sophistication of the contributors here, and I assume most lurkers.
There are younger, less informed voters in other places, that may appreciate this perspective. I did not mean to condescend, but I of course have the right to write what I feel, as long as it is in good faith. And you have the ability to ignore it, or argue against. BUT, it is my responsibility to respect my audience and this space, and to know what, and when, certain thoughts will provoke a strong negative reaction. That is my fault and I will certainly keep that in mind for the future. I would rather have productive discussions, than have to go around apologizing because I was careless or didn't think twice before hitting "publish."
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
A vote for Clinton
is a vote for the lesser evil - more than that, it is a statement that we will always be willing to vote for the lesser evil. This can only ever result in evil.
...and then there is the whole warmongering, grifting, triangulating, unprincipled thing
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
And,
exactly where is the documentation/evidence that HRC is the lesser evil? I'm not seeing it. ???
Our village and town are so small that we don't have a village idiot or a town drunk. Nope, we all take turns.
She is not less evil. But I
She is not less evil. But I believe
1. We will fight HRC or Trump, and we will be better off fighting HRC given the GOP's current dominance outside the White House
2. WAY BETTER, though imperfect, Supreme Court. If you cannot see the difference between Merrick Garland and Samuel Alito, that is an issue.
I did refer to my argument as a variation on the lesser of two evils trope, but I am just suggesting the Movement is better off with Hillary than Trump in the long run.
Indeed, she is NOT less evil. Actually, she is MORE evil than Trump. But Trump is more DANGEROUS, due to his psychological instability and GOP bedfellows. Interesting irony, there.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
But you are actually making my point, kind of
She is more dangerous because she is more evil. And the left, other than us outliers, will not fight a democratic president, even an evil one.
So, if we're going to have evil, we might as well have one that we will all fight instead of one that we will allow to destroy us without a peep of complaint.
In fact, the entire world would support our fighting of trump, but not of Clinton.
It was horrifying to watch the Dems self-betray after Obama's
...2008 victory. I mind less his sabotage of Democratic values than the obsequious mewling acquiescence of the Democrats at Daily Kos.
Exactly. I can't find Donald Trump's death and destruction throughout the world, but I can see Hillary Clinton's everywhere. She's up to her neck in blood. I can't find the millions of people displaced or murdered by Trump's outrageously bad judgements. But Hillary's violent decisions that result in human atrocities are in evidence throughout the world. The terrible harm and suffering that Hillary has helped to inflict on Americans, especially POC, is currently on display in all its crushing austerity and broken lives. But I cannot find any evidence of Trump's horrific actions against the American people.
It is the people who vote from fear who are the true enemies of an enlightened people with a promising future. In the 2016 election, the Democrats will usher a known evil into the White House. The Independents, the nation's young, and the Republicans will certainly not be voting for Hillary Clinton and her Neocon horror show. The Republican voters managed to yank their party away from the corrupt Establishment. The Democratic voters failed to break free of the institutionalized corruption.
I do understand and appreciate what motivates all sides — from those who vote their fears to those who vote their hopes. They all have heavy hearts and they want the best for their country. The US had two hundred and fifty years of voting to nurture and mentor future citizens so they could wisely self govern. I have come to accept that the political outcomes in the US are truly the will and the destiny of the American people. As Plato pointed out:
Plato saw democracy philosophically, after the fact.
Excellent post
And then there's the grand bargain to privatize/cut Social Security. Bill Clinton wanted to propose it, Obama wanted to propose it. What happens when Hillary proposes it? We will get the same rhetoric we are now: well, it's bad, but the grand bargain heads the greater evil off at the pass; it takes the issue off the table, blah blah.
You will hear:
"Well it is broke and it's just a 33% cut, not complete privatization. At least it's half a loaf. She had no other choice... The same crap excuses we got for Obama" Whereas if Trump proposes it, all will be united in opposition.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Hi Haikukitty,
I have seen a great deal of people from other places say they are more afraid of Clinton.
I am, too.
'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "
Good - I hope they stick to it, magicsister
I'm just about resigned that, barring a miracle, one of those two are going to be in the White House next year.
But I sure would love to see whichever gets in get there with a mere fraction of the American population having voted for them. I want to see a huge uptick in the votes for Jill Stein and even for the Libertarian.
I don't want either one to be able to truthfully say (ha! I know right?) they have a mandate.
How I would love to see either of them take the White House with like 10-20% of the eligible voters having voted for them.
I want her votes to be COUNTED
At this point, I KNOW that neither Trump or Clinton have a solid majority in this country, and I suspect you get that, too.
And all of us and others outside this purview that do not, can not, will not vote for either one of them would still like to vote for someone else, if there is someone else worth voting for. Jill Stein and the Greens fill that prescription nicely. If I'm directing Where The Fight Goes From Here, it goes directly to "ballot integrity" issues, perhaps even extend to lobbying to get the UN observing our election in November.
That's a great point, too. None of this is easy for me.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
Really?
"WAY BETTER, though imperfect, Supreme Court. If you cannot see the difference between Merrick Garland and Samuel Alito, that is an issue."
I've never seen the two compared at any length. Can you please cite some differences?
A vote for Hillary is a vote for
an as yet convicted felon
Saying that Clinton is better than Trump
is a lot like saying that dying from blunt force trauma is better than dying from poisoning.
The Democratic Party has made its bed and if Trump beats Clinton, which is a distinct possibility, the impotent protestations of Clinton supporters aside, it will be the fault of the DNC and the Democratic Party, period. End of discussion.
There may be a lot of users here but as a percentage of US voters, not even a drop in the bucket, which is why these types of diaries (stories? articles?) always come across to me as patronizing as hell. Not to mention that the day after Sanders lost some key primaries when emotions about it are still raw is pretty much the worst time in the world to make such an appeal to Sanders supporters.
"Patronizing" is SOP at GOS, which would be a far better venue to post such sentiments. Something like this would be very well received there and might even wind up on the wreck list.
Arrr...the laws of science be a harsh mistress -Bender B. Rodriguez
Agree-My timing is for shit EOM
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
Sooner than later it would have come...
Grady. The "Color of Money" is one of my all time favorite movies, it shows what a cocky little kid can do with his life IF and only IF he has the gonads to back it up. Hillary has the gonads (certainly) but the skills she exhibits are the confidence and cockiness of one who wants only for her self interests - at least "Grady Seasons" ambitions did not kill anyone else. And this is what most scares me about her - that she can come off like a 1990's politician to a group of voters who only recognize a vote worthy politician who pontificates as one who has come from the past (and safe?) surplus of candidates - but one who has a pretty loose agenda of whatever the majority of NWO wants, the NWO gets. She is a pro at convincing the country of policies that are against the countries own best interests - and I am afraid that will include not only TPP but more incursions into countries (not only mid east but African continent) of which this country's parent's children and a volunteer army recruit will be duped into fighting...
Let's get a volunteer army working at home - building bridges and roads and not trying to get health care for their families by tossing the dice in armed conflict...
Peace
FN
"Democracy is technique and the ability of power not to be understood as oppressor. Capitalism is the boss and democracy is its spokesperson." Peace - FN
Did you understand that
before you posted it? If so, why did you post it anyway?
No-I wasn't thinking
It was 3 am, and I had just come from the Bernie rally a couple of hours before. My mind usually races out to an endgame, and so my head was there when I posted. It was a mistake. Geesus, should I just unpublish? Anybody?
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
Let's tone it down a notch...
Just spell out your concerns and let's not get into name calling. That's why we left TOP. Just saying that we have manners here and respect everyone's opinion. Other than that, let's dissect this thing on a genuine thoughtful process...
I mean, the poster did say that he/she is taking a chance here with the lessor evil thing - he/she must mean what the post says so...
Peace
FN
"Democracy is technique and the ability of power not to be understood as oppressor. Capitalism is the boss and democracy is its spokesperson." Peace - FN
What I see in the
comments represents a very gentle response. I honestly see no disrespect - so far at least.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
I appreciate your support for
I appreciate your support for the tome here.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
Point-by-point reply.
Clinton has already indicated her willingness to appoint anti-abortion judges.
Indeed -- and they do this with the consent of a complicit Democratic Party. Why, after all the protests, do you think they haven't gotten rid of Scott Walker?
This is happening now.
You must have missed the Obama-led eviction of Occupy. It's not a problem -- a lot of people did, as they believed that everything was good since we had a (D) in the White House. This is in fact the problem -- that Clinton will appear as some sort of savior from, well, Clinton, and we will get four years of public quietism.
Ask the nice people from Honduras, Haiti, Libya, and Syria. Clinton's foreign policy is to the right of Trump's on all counts.
At any rate, thank you for bringing this up. We really do need to persuade a fair portion of the public that this choice is a big distraction from the hard work of political revolution that needs to be done.
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
Excellent response, Cassiodorus! /nt
Only connect. - E.M. Forster
You make great points, and I
You make great points, and I think you are right that the folly of our current choice should never be overlooked. I think I could sum up my attitude like this. Im in Cali so I will vote for Stein, and fight Trump or HRC tooth and nail.
But if I was in a swing state, I would vote for HRC, then protest the Inauguration, throw alternate parties that night with way cooler bands, and then start the 2020 primary the next day. So, when I say I want Clinton over Trump, that's the best she could get out of me.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
Why you would do these things I don't know.
Sanders was on the verge of rehabilitating the idea of political organizing in one's own self-interest. If that idea stays dead, then what's the point? Go back to work at low-paid jobs with no future? Apply for work with no prospects? Keep searching those trash cans for recyclable bottles?
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
That's EXACTLY what she wants you to do!
For you to give her the power (your vote), then do some useless protest or party that she could care less about.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Cass, I'm with you, except on this one point:
Got a link to back that up? 'Cause my search shows her to be adamant about appointing pro-choice judges.
"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
-- John Lennon
She's willing to let them continue chipping away
at Roe v. Wade - and you know where that goes. Pretty soon you have "abortion rights" IN NAME ONLY. We're almost there NOW, or has no one noticed the return of the back-alley butchers?
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
There are several
Mother Jones broke this one a while back.
Fascinating--all the video embeds I could find in the last 15 minutes of looking seem to have been trashed, but there was a good post up over at TOP about it. I've quoted the better bits, since it transcribes some of the now-defunct video:
It also includes the following text:
Yikes! Thanks. Good to know that she's as disingenuous
about this as anything else.
"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
-- John Lennon
I don't hate your title, although I don't think I'd make the
same assertions as to why she might be better. But I'm going to wait until after the convention to take a stance.
How bad does she come across then? How much will the Dem platform reflect issues that are important to Bernie - and to us?
If there is a third party alternative that might actually win in November, then I don't care if she's marginally better than Trump; I'll vote third party. If she comes across well at the convention, if she reaches out to unite the party, if Bern endorses her, then I think a third party is just a protest vote, and I'll probably vote for her as the slightly better one. Holding my nose. Again. Sigh.
But I've been up all night hoping Cali would turn. It got better, but not nearly better enough, although the drinks and the company were good (Thanks, alphalop and fellow hopers!). I can't think straight until I've slept, and maybe not even then. The part of my brain that is awake is depressed. Good morning, all! Let's not turn on each other, let's just discuss our alternatives. Or just give it some time to sink in before we discuss, if necessary. What happened yesterday is not the fault of progressive political wonks.
Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.
The platform doesn't mean a thing
It's literally just a bunch of words, and in fact the platform itself has been much more liberal than anything pursued by elected democrats for years now. It shouldn't be a factor in making one's mind up.
I think back on the Rachel Maddow - Hillary interview
Where Rachel asked what plans Hillary had to bring the Bernie voters into the fold after the primaries, and Hillary said in essence, "nothing, why would I need to?" and Rachel gave Hillary a second shot at building a bridge, but Hillary doubled down on burning it, and I say, okay Hillary, have it your way. Just don't pretend to be surprised later.
The thought of a President Trump doesn't frighten me as much as she does because he's going to spend the first year finding out what a President can't do. That is, when he's not busy painting the White House gold, searching the closets for the crown, and sitting for his official portrait ("where's my cape?!").
I can't really decide if it smells more like 1968 or 1972. I hear the sound of marching, charging feet, boys, but I also think that there's enough info out there that at some point the Queen and her court will fall.
Now interviewing signature candidates. Apply within.
Hillary burning bridges. Link please? Anyone? Anyone? n/t
n/t
"Democracy is technique and the ability of power not to be understood as oppressor. Capitalism is the boss and democracy is its spokesperson." Peace - FN
here you go
the clip is from Jimmy Dore show, but they show the Rachel-Hillary interaction. I didn't have time to find it on msnbc's site.
Hillary Town Hall on 25 April 2016.
Now interviewing signature candidates. Apply within.
Thanks for this link, terrier
If I ever feel myself falling back into my old fear voting pattern, I only need to watch that clip to be reminded what a horrible person she is.
Hmmm.. Hillary - do you think those 2.7 million additional votes might have something to do with the fact that for MSM watchers, they hardly knew anyone else was running? Do you think having the entire Corporate Media machine on your side might have something to do with it, considering your unfavorable numbers are as high as Trump's? Or perhaps the hundreds of thousands of people dumped off the voter rolls?
What an asshole she is.
Hey, would LOVE to see your take on Hillary's Burning Bridges
it was linked for you here.
If we must find the actual MSNBC link, that might take a little time, but someone else posted the clip from within another clip. Let us know if you believe it now and how, exactly, her attitude makes you feel? It makes me feel like a NOTHING, like this about-to-be-crowned Head of the Democratic Party doesn't give a flying fuck about me.
You tell me why I should vote for her, given that?
Can you say
"Good Cop/Bad Cop", boys and girls?
I thought you could....
It makes me feel like HRC is
It makes me feel like HRC is arrogant entitled bubble dweller, protected by the party, who does not deserve my vote under any circumstances. But then there's Trump. It's just one of those things. Just like I resent HRC supporters, but they will not influence my vote for or against.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
What do you know--REALLY KNOW--about Trump?
This is not "just one of those things", Grady. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to make more sense than this.
It’ll be exactly like what Truman predicted for Eisenhower
http://bartleby.com/73/1514.html
Great analogy.
It's essentially what I've been telling people who are begging me to vote hrc to avoid a Drumpf presidency. I keep quoting Jimmy Carter - Trump is malleable. We all know hrc is not and she and her spouse already know what do to on day one. Shudder - I can't take it - she cannot be POTUS.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
It took time and thought to write your essay.
Personally, I appreciate that. But most here, including me, don't agree with you on this. I have my biggest problem with your #3. I agree that if Trump wins, we fight him. That's easy enough. But if Hillary wins, we fight her? How? Like we fought Barack Obama on TPP, drone wars, his vile appointments of Geithner, Rahmbo, Summers, or his blessing of HRC's mess in Libya?
I see it as just the opposite. Hillary will not help anybody but Hillary. Down ticket will be a disaster. If she beats Trump, it's unlikely that she'll have either house of Congress. The Rethugs despise her, as do their rank and file. The only legislative accomplishments that she'll have will be the ones that the RETHUGS can live with, i.e. reducing Social Security benefits, reducing Medicare/Medicaid coverage, etc. And don't get me started about Wall Street.
No. I can't have a Hillary vote on my conscience. If it's any consolation, I feel the same about Trump. America is coming to a crossroads. I don't think either Trump or Hillary has the right stuff. There's a 73.4% chance that we are well and truly fucked.
"Just call me Hillbilly Dem(exit)."
-H/T to Wavey Davey
I'm hoping..
I'll have a green party option on our ballot. They're working on it. If not, I won't vote for prez. (unless Bernie pulls a miracle and garners the nomination).
My red state will go T-rump anyway. I really can't answer the question, "Who is worse?" But, my thinking of late is T-rump will face more resistance in congress (depending on the composition). Let's suppose $hillary agrees to social security cuts, both sides of the aisle would support that. If T-rump said cut SS dems would fight tooth and nail. It is not clear to me who of the two will do the most harm.
It may all be moot anyway. Does Comey wait till the general election to release the dirt (with or without an indictment)? If so, plan on Prez T-rump. Going into this election with such a flawed person as Hellery is beyond stupid. Greenwald got it right yesterday:
https://theintercept.com/2016/06/07/perfect-end-to-democratic-primary-an...
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
I was roundly attacked as a Right Winger and worse
When I predicted that you zombies would take this exact course and fall in line for Hillary and vote like sheep. Seems I was right after all.
If you keep voting for the lesser evil, all you will get is more evil.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Zombies? A rip roaring discussion of our options is zombies?
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
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Wish I could take the word "zombies" out of your comment
Let's not go that route. There are no "zombies" here. No one is "falling in line" and certainly not "sheep."
I'm not as interested in the Green Party as this poster seems to be. It hasn't accomplished in all the years, what Bernie Sanders did in less than a year. Poor organization, and I don't see it as a viable alternative to Bernie Sanders.
That doesn't make me a "zombie" - just don't agree with those supporting Jill Stein.
http://www.thepeoplessummit.org/
I don't see many people here falling behind HRC
There are one or two, and honestly, that's where I was back in March. If she hadn't run such a horribly corrupt primary campaign and the IG report hadn't come out, I probably would have held my nose and voted for her.
I've since decided I will never again vote for someone out of fear. I'm only voting for candidates I can support, because my measly vote is my consent. And I consent to none of this.
But everyone reaches their limit at different times.
I strongly disagree with any vote for HRC. I actually think it's immoral to vote for a known criminal BUT that's my morality. I can't extend it to others. Everyone must make their own decision, but the very fact that people are struggling with it means they are not zombies.
We have been put into a hideous situation, and there are no easy answers. While I will work to convince people not to vote for her, I can't judge them for making the choice they consider right, just as I am making the choice I consider right.
What the actual fuck is your problem?
Weren't we entertained to similar lashing out by you the other day? Or was that from the person formerly known as "A Voice in the Wilderness"??
Yes, it was me
My problem is people who say they hate hillary but are going to vote for her as the lesser evil.
What the actual fuck was this so-called revolution about? Just kicking up our heels then voting for the Anointed One because she is the Democratic nominee?
What an incredible waste of time!
If you want to see lashing out, go to TOP and read (one of) the diaries entitled "Fuck You, Bernie Sanders" in which Bernie is castigated for :
1. Congratulating her on her victory not her HISTORIC victory! (Actual quote, including caps)
and
2. Not groveling sufficiently and apologizing for continuing to run after she ordered him to quit.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
I have a better plan!
All those points have been made
so many times I wonder why people keep thinking it's a good idea to go over it all again. People are smart. We know what's at stke and what the ramifications of things are. So no, it's not a good time to do this.
Once Again Agreed-Shit Timing EOM
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
Once again,
then why did you post it?
It was literally a mistake-should I unpublish?-advice?
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
timing was rotten but discussion was mostly great
except for a few nasty comments.
I would leave it up, taking it down loses all the comments.
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
Thank you for answering-leaving it up then
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
Leave it - we're not into censorship here
Plus, although it wasn't your intention, it proved to be a nice spot for people to vent.
Sorry!
Voting Dem or Repub just persists a corrupt system
Nothing will change in the US until..
1) It crumbles into a third world nation under the weight of the corruption.
2) Enough people abandon these two corrupt parties and a new third party takes control. (long shot but hey I can dream)
Now that the primaries are over I see no value in Bernie going to the convention. It's all rigged. All too corrupt to save. Why waste a month. He should break away and join the Greens, like today.
#BernieOrGreen
Better yet.
#BernieAndGreen
Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.
Your last sentence
Is the one, tonight/this morning, that resonates with me the most, in my numbed state of mind. I can hardly believe that California did not deliver for Sanders. What happened to all those people at the Bernis rallies? No shows?
Truly fucked. On so many levels.
Part of me wonders what they will do to us. In the 80's it was to increase the debt levels for individuals -remember that? We were suddenly able to buy things without having all the money. Alot of people were dealing with personal debt loads in the 90's, but it quieted the discontent -at least for the 'middle class' of us.
Personally, 'things' will not do it for me this time. I just have to wonder what will happen with the movement that got awakened with Bernie. Meanwhile.... Well and truly fucked.
Oops, meant to be in answer to hillbilly, not fast enough, or quick enough to press 'reply'.
It's been a long time
since I've been this disappointed/apprehensive. Sometimes I think that George Carlin is right...we get the government we deserve. At least I can come to c99 and get some community. (Funny, but that's exactly the way I felt about Daily Kos when I came there right after the 2004 election.)
"Just call me Hillbilly Dem(exit)."
-H/T to Wavey Davey
After what they pulled in Puerto Rico,
can anyone have confidence in the election "results" anywhere?
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
No. I think its fair to say we can't.
It's true right now like it was back then. The old devils are at it again. When I say devil you know who I mean these animals in the dark malicious politicians with nefarious schemes charlatans and crooked cops. - 'Old Devils' William Elliot Whitmore
Greg Palast:
http://www.gregpalast.com/california-stolen-sanders-right-nowspecial-bul...
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
That and more
All Palast talks about happened yesterday. Plus many people, including long time Democratic voters disappeared from voter rolls or had their party affiliation switched, as happened in other states.
Some people never received their mail- in ballots as requested and weren't allowed to get a ballot yesterday. Others were told at polls they had been sent a mail ballot, though they hadn't requested one. And they weren't allowed to vote either. I was in discussions with CA voters all day yesterday, and with other campaign volunteers also in discussions with voters.
Some voters tried very hard to get a ballot and vote but the best most of them managed was a provisional ballot.
We need to completely change the way we do elections in this country. Positively this is not anything resembling a democracy anymore.
Well that explains Bernie's loss in CA
It was engineered to deny Independents their chance to vote for Bernie.
No surprise. The Clinton Crime Family deserves the nomination of this corrupt party -- if for nothing else but the hard work they put in to steal it.
Dems Party - the party of the Damned.
Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.
Now, now,
don't be bringing the band into this. I'm pretty sure they don't like what she stands for either:
Did you notice that just recently in London town
The flags all waved
The people smiled a lot, the world was right
But now it seems that nothing's changed
My ears are ringing with the promise
The promise that they'll right the wrongs
And that they're ever gonna give you
Democracy, Democracy (you wanna bet?)
We've been down this path a million times
And yet there seems no hope for us
These times are hard and yet the few do well
The rest can wallow in the dust
And if you're looking for the answers
You won't need a chrystal ball
'Cause they're not taking any chances on
Democracy, Democracy (not on you life)
Don't tell me revolution changed a thing in France
'Cept for a king or two
'Cause when it's Bastile Day a toxic time bomb ticks
In the Pacific blue
'Cause revolution changes nothing
And voting changes even less
'Cause it's only time you are wasting on
Democracy, Democracy (there's none round here)
Well that blew the wax out of my ears.
Hahahha.
They will have to do a sequel when Hellery steals the election. Name it "Kleptocracy".
Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.
LOVE it!
I happen to be a friend of a friend to the good Captain. I'll send it along, you never know, he's quite nice
For Tahitians, French “liberty” means colonial rule & nuke tests
That’s what I’m guessing these lines are about:
Tahiti Protests Oppose Nukes, Colonial Rule
Liberté for me, bomb tests for thee, hee hee, oui oui.
That is correct
Isn't it awful? All these "democracies". Is it any wonder people drop out of the process?
I don't know about "no shows"
I don't know about "no shows", I think the numbers are a result of mail-in votes and the 'crossover ballot' fiasco.
There is a video circulating on facebook of a Berner calling the Cali board of elections and being told that Cali is a closed primary state, and that there is no such thing as a crossover ballot.
So, basically, the hacks that run the 'party' managed to once again suppress the totals for Sanders.
We're never going to know what the numbers in this election would have looked like if the Dem party actually believed in the democratic process.
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