Why HRC is Better Than Trump

UPDATE 2:06 PM PST
Well, that escalated quickly. To sum up my comments.
1. I am truly sorry for the timing of this diary. Yuuge mistake.
2. Sorry for using words that, due to my ignorance, I did not realize were triggers: "hate, purity, emotional, cookie" these have been marked as the sure sign of trollism, and I am sorry I let such words further undermine already very unpopular opinion.
3. To those I pissed off, or set off their troll alarms - I hate to grovel, but I am not above asking you to please forgive my shoddy timing and word choice, and not let this diary define my presence here. I have learned a lot here, and felt welcomed, and been thrilled to have a new place to go after leaving TOP. A troll I am not, and will never be. Hopefully, I haven't created a situation where I just get dismissed out of hand, but if so I guess I brought it on myself.

UPDATE 5:26 AM:
Thank you all for commenting. As usual, I learned a lot from the discussion. There were some not thrilled, and I get it. My timing was for shit, first and foremost. And I want you to know there tonight for Bernie's speech.
twitter.com/SqueakBaxter/status/740439072502652939
It is an emotional time. We all have to deal in our own way. Mine is to convince everybody to do something I already know they don't want to do, at the worst possible time, when I myself get to vote for Jill Stein because I am in Cali. I think editorial discretion is the lesson here. But to those who read and commented, thank you, and I hope you didn't get too pissed off.

First, this is not the best time for this, but it was a comment I left on a previous diary and I thought it was substantial enough to make it's own, so here it is.

I know this lesser of two evils argument is hated around here, and rightfully so. But I still feel I can make the case that if the #PoliticalRevolution can ONLY have Clinton or Trump this year, and Bernie does not go independent, that it IS MUCH better for the Movement to have a President Clinton than a President Trump. I will never tell anyone they SHOULD vote for HRC, especially if they view their vote as a pure expression of their beliefs. And I respect #BernieOrBust to the utmost. However, personally, and this is just me (he said putting up his hands like Vince Vaughn might) , I look at a vote as a strategic choice. Strategically, IMHO, it is MUCH better to have Clinton. Here is why.

1. The Supreme Court-This is obviously the heart of most lesser of two evils arguments, which makes it a hated device amongst the left, which it should be. The thing is, we hate it because it works, and it works because it has to. Anybody who understands politics understands that the Court is key because of it's power, but also because bad picks last a lifetime, and they do damage. If you don't understand what Scalia, Rheinquist, et al, along with the Federalist Society have done to this country, then you probably won't buy this argument. But if you know, then you really know. That damage is not so easily undone.

2. Power begets power. Anybody living in a red state will tell you that as soon as the GOP gets any real power they start fucking shit up right away, Flint style, Scott Walker Style, Kansas Tax Cut style, Texas Abortion Style, etc. But also, through politicizing of every sector of government, and downright using their positions of authority to straight up cheat, the GOP finds ways to get MORE power and make it MUCH harder for the Movement to gain traction.
Right now, the GOP has the House, Senate, states, and half the court. Trump is no run of the mill Republican, but HE WILL DO WHAT THEY WANT except on pet issues. And protecting rights and NOT expanding power exponentially is not one of his pet issues. GOP full control is a scary thing. The Iraq War, and a lot of other bad shit, happened the last time that was the case. With so many GOP held offices around the country, HRC would be a bit of a countervailing force.

3. My most original argument:
If Trump is President, WE FIGHT HIM. BUT,
there will be violent youth riots in reaction to racist policies, which will bring a police crackdown and suburban backlash. This is the WORST thing that could happen to the left.

If Clinton is President, WE FIGHT HER. BUT,
the youth will protest injustices of all kinds, instead of riot, and we will organize and pressure Dems-THAT IS MUCH MORE PLEASANT

4. National Security
This one is a tough call. But Trump IS erratic, unstable, unfit, and his party is filled with belligerent jerks who could easily bully him into action. I think there is little chance of us committing non-Special Forces ground troops anywhere under either Trump or HRC, due to $$ and war fatigue in both parties, but Trump is an embarrassing and dangerous nightmare on the world stage.

HRC is not a warmonger, but she is FULL ON MIC. Cheney was a warmonger. HRC, Biden, and Kerry were cowards in their Iraq vote. They wanted tough-guy credibility. Kerry felt he got burned when he voted against Gulf War 1, and it "went well," so he was a yes. HRC wanted to be a post 9-11 President. She has no conscience. But warmonger? No.
The weapons deals to the middle east? Yes they are terrible, but this IS US policy right now. Why? First, unfortunately exports are good for the economy even when they are machines of death. Second, and more importantly, we are selling them shitloads of arms to fight in their regional conflicts, because we are telling them that WE won't do for them what we used to, militarily, with our forces. And that is actually good.

So basically, if it's Trump or Clinton, we must FIGHT them tooth and nail. Strategically, and to mitigate a new level of race-baiting, I would rather FIGHT Clinton.

So there you have my well-reasoned yet certainly unpopular opinion. As I say, thank you for reading and commenting if you like. And as always, I wish I could give you a cookie. But, as always, this thing just doesn't work like that.

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but I wouldn't vote for $hillary if she was the only name on the ballot.

Bernie or bust!

Solidarity!

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and try to 'unify' us? The morning after her theft of Cali?

And With the typical HRC operative cover of making the other person the problem if they react to your insults... "dont' respond with hate" oh yes, you are clever. could it be that your timing and what you are saying is just so reprehensible to us that we would respond with anger.

Where is your sense of timing? Who the hell are you? Are you a paid operative?

I DON'T HATE YOU, I AM BEYOND FURIOUS THAT YOU WOULD POST THIS. NOW.

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Sea Turtle

PhilJD's picture

at least as I understand it. Obviously the diarist expected disagreement, but what does your vitriol and "paid operative" accusation really add?

Trump or Clinton is an ugly choice--historically awful--but a lot of Americans, on this site and everywhere else, are going to face it in November. Like it or not, the decision whether to yet again settle for the lesser evil or to finally draw a line and say Enough! is one that a lot of us are going to confront. Personally, I can't imagine myself voting for Clinton, but living in Illinois I can "safely" vote for Jill Stein with no qualms. I have no idea what I would do if I lived in a swing state where my vote might matter.

Rational progressives may well decide that right now nothing matters more than stopping Trump. That decision may be wrong, but it's neither insane nor a betrayal of progressive goals. We should expect that case to be made at C99.

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Hillary Clinton 2016: I'm a proud progmoderate!

triv33's picture

Is she the lesser evil than Trump? Meh, six of one, half a dozen of the other, she's a different evil, hard to say...but I can't vote for either of them. Pretty sure Hillary will get elected, I'm also pretty sure the GOP will be looking to impeach her from day one, it'll be a great four years, historical in many ways, lol.

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I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~

how you feel, Sea Turtle.

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'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "

If it didn't have all caps and 'paid operative,' I would have uprated it.

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even if i didn't care about Iraq2.0, fracking, TPP, etcetera, the Clinton campaign's behavior has been shit since last summer. And now they want us to forget dishonest put-downs like Bernie Bros and a bazillion other lies and obfuscations?

Fuck "unity". That's just enabling abusive behavior.

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And that existing current of anger and hatred that Trump so easily tapped into...What happens to that? I mean, I get that we'll pretend it's defeated when Trump loses, along with racism, bigotry, and misogyny, but what really happens to it? What happens when we kick that can down the road for yet another eight years? Isn't that how we got to this point? I think a significant change of course is required at this time. Monsters do exist.

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I feel that defeating Trump will have a much better dampening effect on this hate. Electing him will make it an emergency crisis for this country. No, it does not go away. But making it socially unacceptable, and something shared only in racist hate circles, might be the best we can hope for.

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

Thumb's picture

A Hillary victory will validate pay to play, corruption, and the total control over our politics by the top fraction of the economic elite. It didn't go missed by me that the Waltons and the Kochs have come out for Hillary. WHAT DOES THAT TELL US??? It tells me the Democratic party has been hijacked, and there's no getting it back if we reward them with "unity" because Trump "is worse."

Maybe he is worse, but until the Dems hit rock bottom they're not giving up the bottle, and the dysfunction continues while the country rots under a fake democracy. Some battles need to be conceded to win the war, and a Hillary victory does only servers to set our cause back.

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"Polls don't tell us how well a candidate is doing; Polls tell us how well the media is doing." ~ Me

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angel d's picture

"servers" instead of "serves" good one!

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'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "

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martianexpatriate's picture

Hillary Clinton and Trump is that Clinton is a fixture of the party apparatus. She will betray progressive ideals, but she won't subscribe to the sort of crazy insanity that would literally destroy the country. The middle class will continue to suffer, and I'm sure she will be a warmonger.

Trump doesn't believe experts, and he is not a politician. He will absolutely do things that would destroy the country. He is the kind of guy who would burn the place down. People like him, in historical contexts very much like this one, have been elected and did in fact destroy their countries. Mussolini, Hitler, and Mao come to mind. These are not simplistic limited comparisons. They behaved like him, spoke like him, and had a similar amount of respect for experts.

There is a huge difference between continuing the war abroad, and someone who would brazenly attempt to overturn the constitution and bring war here.

I'm sorry that so many people here are so emotional that they can't see that.

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The revolution is about democracy vs. oligarchy. Who is the lesser of two evils when it comes to oligarchy? Sure, both parties are evil, but when it comes to oligarchy, nobody compares to the Clintons. Bernie has made the case for being a one issue voter, because nothing will be accomplished on the other issues if the people's democracy doesn't overthrow oligarchy.

Which party and candidate is the lesser of two evils when the issue is democracy vs.oligarchy?

1. The Republican Party had a fair democratic primary while it was revealed the Democratic Party and its members despise democracy.
2. Hillary will destroy the progressive movement while Trump will encourage it.
3. Hillary is owned by oligarchy and Trump is just learning the ropes.
4. Hillary has an army of 10,000 skilled henchmen ready to serve oligarchy while Trump is a disorganized clown.
5. Hillary will work with Republicans to pass laws for oligarchy while the Dems will obstruct Trump, he won't accomplish anything because he won't have any support.
6. Hillary will not be primaried in 2020. With Trump, progressives can win the Dem primary and presidency in 2020.

With Trump, progressives win the presidency in 2020 and begin a 1000 years of peace, prosperity, human rights, and environmentalism. With Hillary, we wait 25 years for another chance in the anti-establishment cycle. By then it may be too late.

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lunachickie's picture

entitled to your opinion of course! But I have to disagree here, full-stop:

HRC is not a warmonger,

Yes, sadly--she is a warmonger, she's not *just* MIC. Not that there's a huge difference between the two, but just look up "we came, we saw, he died" and "Libya". The woman IS a warmonger and she is not less evil than Drumpf, particularly in that.

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fakenews's picture

"we came, we saw, he died" isn't pacifist talk.

Still thinking about the lessor of two evil thing. In my mind I see nothing but Clinton "bots" in the supreme court and lower offices... Fighting Clinton vs. Trump? IDK - let me think on that for a while. And what about TPP?...

Peace (and I mean it!)
FN

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"Democracy is technique and the ability of power not to be understood as oppressor. Capitalism is the boss and democracy is its spokesperson." Peace - FN

Good point on TPP. If there wasn't an actual open seat on the Supreme Court just sitting there, I would have to say that beats my entire argument. But it's that damn court.

And as for the "warmonger" title. I just think I make a distinction between a Cheney/Bibi/McCain and a Clinton. I could just say she is LESS of a warmonger, but that is no compliment. Basically, she is the WORST DEMOCRAT on foreign policy. And that is hard to stomach. However, I think she is rotten to the core, and her comments on Libya are a window into her sociopathic personality. She is NOT for peace. It's just that I also do not trust Trump on the world stage.

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

Either way that SCOTUS seat will go to someone owned 100% by Wall Street and the big corporations. So, who cares which Republican, Trump or Clinton, gets elected?

Go ahead, ban me again for violating Groupthink.

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

fakenews's picture

A Clinton owned politician could go in ANY direction at the whim of the Clinton's threat to expose their dirt (having dirt on a politician is the ONLY way Clinton's allow you through the gate). So, in short if you get Hillary you WILL get all of her objectives too!!!...

Peace
FN

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"Democracy is technique and the ability of power not to be understood as oppressor. Capitalism is the boss and democracy is its spokesperson." Peace - FN

1. The millions of woman trying to keep their right to choose.
2. Millions of immigrants affected by Trump's executive actions and how the SCOTUS rules on them.
3. American Muslims, and Muslim visitors.
4. Unions
5. People who struggle with healthcare
6. People trying to get sensible gun regulations
7. People who want to overturn Citizen's united.

Hillary is slightly to the left of Bill, who nominated Ginsburg and Breyer. Now look at trumps list.

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CambridgePulsar1919's picture

4-7 are screwed with $$Hillary as POTUS.

$$Hill and her supporters literally do not care about my concerns or my needs. But now I should vote for that horrible lying POS fake Democrat because of the first three items you listed?

If $$Hill's peeps had supported the real progressive, none of those 7 things you listed would be in danger. Now they are.

That's not on me.

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TheOtherMaven's picture

So what's that? Two feeble points of "less of a hatemonger"?

Please get this through your heads: $Hillary will do NOTHING to prevent reproductive rights from being eroded still further. She has repeatedly, publicly stated that she is "open to" more limitations on abortion - including Constitutional limitations. Just what the hell do you think that MEANS?

She. Will. Not. Protect. Roe. v. Wade.

She believes that abortions should be "safe, legal, and RARE" - and she means "RARE" in the sense of "Rarely permitted, and then only under stringent conditions".

We know where that goes. Back to the bloody coathanger.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

CambridgePulsar1919's picture

Thanks for the reminder.

Sadly, I find myself shying away from 'certain topics' because $$Hill's peeps have made it clear that my input as an old white male hippie is not welcome any more. I guess I'm just too weary to keep punching right now.

Decades of fighting the good fight, and $$Hill's peeps have made me the enemy because of my skin color and my reproductive organs. What's exasperating is that it is the hard work of people like me that has given many of them the privilege to call me "privileged".

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As a 63 year old woman, it's taken me a long time to understand the Republicans' fury at this constant "Democratic" abuse of white men. But identity politics has now been turned on me by other Democrats and I see what they mean. Shame on me for not seeing it sooner. It's meaningless crap used to batter decent people based on things they can't help - their sex and skin color. Jesus, it used to be the KKK who did that! I've been a feminist since the sixties, and Hillary's shills have called me a sexist. They even called Bernie a sexist for having the gall to oppose that woman for the nomination. When they're calling Bernie a sexist, why should I listen to them when they call ANYONE a sexist?

Those of us not brainwashed by Brock, Kos & Co. know perfectly well that the majority of whites, like the majority of men, are not privileged at all. Life is becoming progressively more hellish for everyone but the rich. Don't let them stifle you.

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Twain Disciple

WindDancer13's picture

left of Roe v Wade to protect? How many states now have restrictions that make that ruling moot? You are on point with the fact that HRC will not fight for keeping even the crumbs that are left.

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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass

lunachickie's picture

so there's that.

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martianexpatriate's picture

not get an abortion when they need one. They can't afford to travel, and abortion clinics are becoming increasingly difficult to reach for many.

Your right though, this is still better than losing them altogether.

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lunachickie's picture

at least it's still there. It's the basis which all the law stands on, and it's also the basis that all the "exceptions" were cut. If the law itself falls, so does everything connected to it.

And she won't lift a finger to try and help effect change on even that much, either, any more than Obama has:

Many people can effectively not get an abortion when they need one. They can't afford to travel, and abortion clinics are becoming increasingly difficult to reach for many.

So there's yet another reason to tell the DNC, the Democratic Party, and Hillary Rodham Clinton to fuck off sideways.

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and why the heck would Hillary want to overturn Citizens United when she benefits so much by it.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

because of Hillary's foreign policy choices?

What about the millions of Americans living in poverty who will continue to be hurt because Hillary continues to spend exhorbitantly on the military and ignores domestic social support structures (or, worse, looks to cut them, as she has signaled she'd be open to for SS)?

What about Unions? The same ones who had a representative excluded from Hillary's convention, and who have seen a steady erosion of membership under the Clinton's, Bush's, and Obama's administrations?

Healthcare? What health care? She wants to continue and expand the insurance model which those afrementioned poor folks can't access anyway.

Gun regulations? As Secretary of State she oversaw a $120M arms deal for the same manufacturer of the guns used in the Sandy Hook massacre. Seems like she doesn't mind if they're used abroad.

Citizens United? She's taking advantage of it now, and her opposition is simply not credible.

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i can't see a real distinction between Clinton and Cheney/Netenyahu. She is openly courting both of them She employed PNAC founder Robert Kagan's wife, Victoria Nuland in the state department and has been endorsed by Kagan. Vicky Nuland did many predictable neoconish things like provoke antagonism with Russia, Syria,Libya and Iran. Hillary has also written letters to forward promising closer relations with Netenyahu than the Obama administration. The idea that the Iraq war was just a one-off is the kossack dems weakest argument in my view.

Abortion is mostly illegal in many states, so I don't see maintaining Roe as it presently is, as doing much to protect Abortion rights. I think it is just a good scare tactic, that scares up some donors, and that also makes socalled prochoice conservatives more comfy voting republican, since they will cut my taxes and protect Roe or whatever. Even without Roe most states with liberal abortion laws will continue to have liberal abortion laws. States like Texas without access will continue to have no access as the do now under Roe.

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fakenews's picture

She is just such a piece of ... Well she is a puppet of some sort and not for the general good. Ukraine comes to mind...

Peace
FN

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"Democracy is technique and the ability of power not to be understood as oppressor. Capitalism is the boss and democracy is its spokesperson." Peace - FN

"Abortion is mostly illegal in many states, so I don't see maintaining Roe as it presently is, as doing much to protect Abortion rights."

Getting those laws overturned is exactly why it is important. "Maintaining Roe" is not the goal, it is the minimum necessity.

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LapsedLawyer's picture

The way I see it, we are no longer dealing with a post-Roe world, but a post-Casey world, where restricting abortion rights is the legal norm.

Most likely, HRH HRC will appoint someone like Merrick Garland, whose views on abortion rights are unknown, but whose history on centrism and careful cautious legal opinions don't bode well for women's rights.

Granted, you'll get some relief -- a provision or two of a law struck down, possibly -- and it might not get worse (and it's pretty damn bad as it is), but frankly I see the same thing happening now with a 4-4 split on the Court, liberal v. conservative.

And, frankly, I can't see her nominating anyone who is in any way, shape or form having any opinions one way or another on the matter as she will be dealing with just as hostile a crowd in Congress as President Obama has been. (I, for one, don't see, given she's at the top of the ticket, enough Dem enthusiasm generated to get back the Senate, as Dems need 5 seats to take it back -- and then do the one thing they've shown themselves utterly without resolve to do: Abolish the filibuster.)

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"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
-- John Lennon

CambridgePulsar1919's picture

If maintaining Roe is a "minimum necessity", then $$Hill's peeps and the DNC should have supported Sanders, because he would beat Trump like a drum, and protect civil liberties, all while not bombing the shit out of brown people for being scary to old white people.

The DNC has chosen a 'warrior' with a rusty, broken sword and no armor to 'protect' the things they claim are vital to Democrats.

Good luck with that.

To paraphrase the famous quote: The Democratic establishment knows what's best, and they deserve to get it; good and hard.

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so my vote may matter. So you're suggesting I vote for clinton because trump will be worse. There are a lot of arguments one way or another on this topic and we've heard them all. But think about this. Do you really think someone who has henry kissinger as a friend and mentor and is "flattered when he said she ran State better than anyone has in a long time" should be president? Do you want a president who has kissinger, the guy who makes dick cheney look like Gandhi, whispering in her ear? The person that is so out of touch that she thinks this is a good thing. This is just one of the many reasons I'd never vote for clinton. I told bush supporters that they had blood on their hands when they voted for him. I'll say the same to clinton supporters should she become president.
Should she lose to trump in November and it's because she lost Ohio by one vote, I'll proudly take credit for it.
#BernieOrBust

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"wish I could rec this 100 times"? Well, I wish I could rec this 100 times.

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Shaylors Provence

Do not fall for the blame the voter BS.

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It's true right now like it was back then. The old devils are at it again. When I say devil you know who I mean these animals in the dark malicious politicians with nefarious schemes charlatans and crooked cops. - 'Old Devils' William Elliot Whitmore

Your whole argument is wrong and confusing. Are you voting for Jill Stein? Then why even post this?

First let me defend your right to post this and to be responded to with a civil tone. Some of the words you picked, however, were pretty bad choices and sound like they are right off daily kos: hate and cookie. We can hate her corruption and her corrupt policies without hating her vagina or the rest of her person. Hate is just a word top uses to inflame conversation, and no, we don't want a cookie or a pony. We want our government to be rid of corporate money and lobbyists. We are pretty sick of it being bought. We are also pretty sick of pre-emptive war as a business opportunity and unlimited resources for war and corporate welfare while they cut our jobs and social security, starve babies, destroy the planet, lock up people for profit, let our infrastructure crumble and drive our kids into debt.

We've been capitulating and voting for the crappy Democrat that isn't the crappy Republican for 35 years. Tell me how that has made me better off today. The Democratic Party has transformed into the Republican Party and Hillary is worse than Nixon. Insanity is. When the current Democratic Party is to the right of Nixon and Reagan, show me what voting blue no matter who has accomplished.

Last but not least, f@ck Hillary, f@ck the Clintons, fu@k the Democratic Party. Until we can hurt them, we have no power. I'm tired of being ignored and screwed over. Even more, I'm tired of them not giving a damn about my grand kids. I'm in MI. The GOP will metastasize and devour everything if Trump wins. So be it. When enough people are under the bus, maybe they'll wise up and up end it.

I will NEVER vote for Hillary. I will NEVER vote for another corporate Dem. I will NEVER vote for a superD that f@cked the voters in their state by ignoring them and supporting Hillary. I am NOT a Democrat. I owe them exactly what they've given me - not a GD thing.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

. . . but especially " f@ck the Clintons, fu@k the Democratic Party."

And I'd add this: If Sanders endorses Clinton, then fu@k him, too!

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lunachickie's picture

If Sanders endorses Clinton

You know why I'll never hold it against him? Because if he actually endorses her, he is goddamn doing it under duress.

And if a guy like Sanders does something like that under duress, then the rest of this shit does not matter one fucking whit.

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Haikukitty's picture

And he's damn well right about that.

If he feels bound to say he's voting for her or endorsing her, so be it. He has given us much and nothing will change that.

But I feel pretty comfortable that he won't be trying to strong arm any supporters into voting for her, regardless. He's said repeatedly that she has to earn our votes. Instead, she's consistently shown she doesn't give a rat's ass about any of us who had the temerity to question her coronation.

It's actually pretty funny how everything she touches turns to shit. If she could have mimicked being a decent human, and not cheated and schemed and been so insultingly arrogant, she probably would have had many of our votes. But she simply couldn't even fake it.

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Bernie is a lion, he will never let us down. Bernie is the rare true revolutionary who changes history through unrelenting volition. The question is will we let him down?

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I'm in Ohio and from this day on I will never support Sherrod Brown again. He came out very early and endorsed clinton and he is a SD. I keep getting emails from him as I've sent him money in the past. Instead of being removed form his mailing list I respond to every one that he is a corporate sellout and I'll do my best to see him primaried. He actually knows me and that I'm with the UAW. I just hope he responds to me personally.

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Al Franken and Howard Dean tied for second. Damn, they were ALL bought and paid for.

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Twain Disciple

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Sounds like us Michiganders think alike. If they send Hillary up against Trump... F***em. Let them reap what they sow. I will just have to Buck up, protect my own, and grow a bigger garden for the next 4 years. The SCOTUS will be a load to bear, but after she loses, I will gladly say to the HRC camp... "I told ya so!"

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Hey, the cookie thing, I thought that was mine. I guess I didn't spend enough time on Kos. Probably for the better. Thanks for the heads up.

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

gulfgal98's picture

Why would someone come here to post an essay pushing Hillary Clinton when he "says" he is voting for Jill Stein? Why is he not advocating for Jill Stein instead.

Your whole argument is wrong and confusing. Are you voting for Jill Stein? Then why even post this?

It makes zero sense unless he is actually a Hillary supporter who is saying that he is voting for Jill Stein as a way of gaining credibility. And frankly, it does not wash with me. It is amazing the amount of pixels wasted on this essay which does not appear to have been posted in good faith.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

jimpost's picture

Yes, YES, YESSSSS!!!!!

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The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.

Steven D's picture

The TPP will be passed in the lame duck session of Congress in exchange for the Senate voting for Obama's nominee, Garland.

It will be a done deal before she gets in office.

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"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott

mjsmeme's picture

if she gets to the oval office. Not sure about Garland, she may have someone more profitable$$$for the foundation in mind, and am sure Billary will work that out with nodramaObama before a vote goes forward.

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Clinton soliciting Trump to run. Literally scaring up votes for his network. This will never go anywhere good for the vast majority of Americans.

I have lost all faith in the Democratic Party, and in the integrity and good intentions of Democratic Leadership. This is all about siphoning off U.S. Assets for U.S. and International Elites, and to hell with the rest of humanity.

They don't even bother with the appearance of a process any longer. Mostly I feel a sense of despair. It's very easy to see what's intended and what's ahead: facing that is beyond the ability of most humans to bear.

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at the obvious theft of Cali, and the theft of this whole election.

And the utter craven manipulation that we have all been subjected to, and that there are the masses who don't see or who choose not to see. Well, with the lying propagandizing media, that makes it more difficult to know the truth.

I suppose at some point I need to calm down.

But if I don't get this rage out, and work with it, and walk with it, then I won't be able to sleep. And that is a big problem. Can't suppress this.

God, help us. If she is elected, this will be worse than Bush. And I was miserable during those years.

But as others have said, and you say, Sorrowful, "They don't even bother with the appearance of a process any longer. Mostly I feel a sense of despair. It's very easy to see what's intended and what's ahead: facing that is beyond the ability of most humans to bear."

and the other point that you make that I wish peeps knew far and wide; this is not just a US election, per the Clinton Global Foundation, which has been a money laundering operation, this is the global corporations/elites buying the politial power in the US, but good. They always owned part of it, now the US govt will just be another wholly owned subsidiary. Period.

As you say, Sorrowful: " This is all about siphoning off U.S. Assets for U.S. and International Elites, and to hell with the rest of humanity."

Time to get out "1984", "A Brave New World" and watch the "Matrix" and "Elysium" again.

Any other nominations for prophetic books or movies?

Whew... maybe that is how I will work with some of this rage today.

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Sea Turtle

Haikukitty's picture

Maybe that is the gift of a traumatic childhood, who knows? But I mostly feel like - oh, of course they did. Why would I ever think this train wreck could be stopped before maximum damage is done to the entire planet?

It's almost like I'm happy that I no longer have to pretend that positive change is possible electorally. Part of me is pleased that they keep showing how horrible and corrupt they are. Validation of a sort?

I don't know - I'm in a weird place. About the only thing I know for certain right now is that I literally would not vote for her under any circumstances ever. Not ever.

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Sea Turtle

lunachickie's picture

and, like you,

About the only thing I know for certain right now is that I literally would not vote for her under any circumstances ever. Not ever.

I think for my own mental health's sake, something in my brain kicked in this morning and said "Self, play wait-and-see until the convention"....because that's where the shit goes down formally.

In the meantime, perhaps any efforts I make against the government will in part consist of bugging the shit out of the FBI, about what the fuck are they waiting for? They're slow-walking this. I wasn't sure until this new "trial balloon" of "he's got something else to work on" came out. Such a fucking bunch of bullshit, it's so obvious that Comey's FBI and actual law are playing second fiddle to that crooked c**t, and that's got to piss him right off.

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WindDancer13's picture

a simple case of email issues that soon went to an server issue then expanded to a foundation issue and all the myriad side roads that entails. Now, I suppose, he has had to add election fraud issues to his pile now. Yes, I wish he would complete this before the convention, but it does have to be done right. No sense in doing all that work then letting the worm slip off the hook becasue a T wasn't crossed.

#NeverHillary

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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass

lunachickie's picture

I really don't believe after all that has been discussed, that it's as much about "he has to do it right" as it is about "buying time".

Anybody else would likely be jailed by now. At the very least, they wouldn't still be running for POTUS...

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WindDancer13's picture

(last month, I think) of Comey testifying in a case. This guy has integrity. Other than nailing down an open and shut case, there are all sorts of complications that could be keeping the department from going forward and still preserve the soundness of the case(s).

Let's say that there is something about the emails and/or server that show Obama and/or other admins who would have known better and didn't say or do anything immediately were complicit. (For myself, I believe Obama and many others knew exactly what she was doing.) If Comey wants anything done specifically about HRC's corruption, he has to tiptoe very carefully around the land mines that have been placed all around him. On top of that, there may be a lot of evidence that is unusable due to national security. The best possible solution in this case may have been to shift focus to the foundation and the land mines there which has added time to the ongoing investigation.

On another note, We the People cannot just sit by and expect an FBI report to save us from our fate. We already know the fact hat she and many others are corrupt.

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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass

lunachickie's picture

and we do know that there are roadblocks to every case. But there's enough leaked out there that she should have quit the race and she didn't.

That means she gambled on what they might have. And she's still in it. So to me, that says 'they don't have enough to bring her down'.

Either that, or they're buying time.

Any way you slice it, somebody's full of shit here.

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WindDancer13's picture

stupidity and complicity of the US American voters. Looks like it was a good bet.

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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass

snoopydawg's picture

If she was using an email address with her name in it and saw that I didn't come from a .gov address, how could they not know that she wasn't using a government email service?

Plus, how many people saw or sent classified information and didn't have the security clearance to read them?
Sid Bluementhal for example. Obama told her to keep him out of the state department, so she hired him to work for her foundation instead. How could Obama not know that was happening?

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There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?

Harris is unburdened of speaking going forward.

WindDancer13's picture

the administration (and all the way up the food chain) knew exactly what she was doing and turned a blind eye. The implication is that they are more than okay with the corruption and were complicit in it, all of it.

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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass

snoopydawg's picture

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There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?

Harris is unburdened of speaking going forward.

gulfgal98's picture

that I have. Somewhat similar to yours Haikukitty. I woke up down in the dumps at first and then I felt a sense of relief like a great weight had been lifted from my shoulders. And I do not know why. Perhaps it is because I have been trying to tell people about the corruption that surrounds Clinton and the Democratic party and felt like no one cared. But Bernie's candidacy has served to rip that curtain wide open and it is there for everyone to see.

It's almost like I'm happy that I no longer have to pretend that positive change is possible electorally. Part of me is pleased that they keep showing how horrible and corrupt they are. Validation of a sort?

I no longer feel that I must vote defensively for the lesser of two evils. Yeah, I was still doing that even in 2012. While I am worried about time with the rapid acceleration of climate change, there is suddenly a new freedom that I feel to promote those issues I am passionate about without having to work within a binary partisan frame.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

before we can have any control over our lives or any social morality. With the Mad Bomber's finger in the trigger, we might get there soon.

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detroitmechworks's picture

With a lot of fun local gods, festivals and philosophers/Playwrights.

I may be romanticizing things a bit.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

WindDancer13's picture

[video:https://youtu.be/R004geOm0L8]

Does this sound like defeatism? Put your anger to work rather than hide from it.

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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass

They Live

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WaterLily's picture

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WindDancer13's picture

Sanders' speech last night and listen to it over and over and over until his message sinks in. We don't have time for despair. We have work to do.

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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass

Clinton soliciting Trump to run. Literally scaring up votes for his network. This will never go anywhere good for the vast majority of Americans.

I have lost all faith in the Democratic Party, and in the integrity and good intentions of Democratic Leadership. This is all about siphoning off U.S. Assets for U.S. and International Elites, and to hell with the rest of humanity.

They don't even bother with the appearance of a process any longer. Mostly I feel a sense of despair. It's very easy to see what's intended and what's ahead: facing that is beyond the ability of most humans to bear.

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My reply to FakeNews is to you, as well, on the "warmonger" part. Your point is well taken.

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

fakenews's picture

All of us will have to face this question sooner or later. Better to get it out now so we can think about the repercussions of our needs / actions - in any case we are going to need some cross party solidarity to get this thing "right sided" again.

Peace
FN

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"Democracy is technique and the ability of power not to be understood as oppressor. Capitalism is the boss and democracy is its spokesperson." Peace - FN

lunachickie's picture

I know what the repercussions of my needs/actions will be if I vote Green.

I won't be voting for Hillary or Donald.

I don't have to think twice about it.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

If Clinton acts as she did as SOS, it is too dreadful to imagine what she would be like as POTUS.

Did you read the O.I.G. report, or at least a summary. Clinton LIED, again, and again, and refused to acknowledge the truth of the report. She said the same things before the report was released, as she did after it was released. Somehow believes if she keeps denying the truth, repeats lies, the issue of the truth will not be important. Her sycophants keep her in such a bubble, her hubris grows, and the last concern, is what happens OUTSIDE of her own ambition.

Think the only way to the possibility of any reform of the Democratic Party is to remove it from the clutches of the Clintons/DNC/DLC/Third Way. BTW, I'm an Independent, have been since the Clintons, Al From took over the Democratic party.

Enough is Enough. Yes, there will be consequences, yes I will accept those consequences.

A.B. C. = Anybody But Clintons ( yes, it's both of them, possibly again, no, will not contribute to that possibility) Trump or Clintons is NOT A CHOICE. I agree with Susan Sarandon, Clintons more dangerous than Trump.
http://www.thepeoplessummit.org/

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LapsedLawyer's picture

speech at AIPAC to see her in her full neocon glory, complete with a slanderous ugly trampling of the First Amendment.

She will be Cheney redux, guaranteed.

And how many women's lives did that undead turdpile save?

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"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
-- John Lennon

kharma's picture

then my Democratic President gives me Merrick Garland. You can't use that one anymore.

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There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams

I am very disappointed in the Garland pick. But the Clinton/Obama record on judges is once again, miles better than the GOP Federalist Society political hacks. We must make distinctions, and in a 2 party system, we must make fine distinctions, to get best result possible given any set of circumstances.

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

Cassiodorus's picture

On numerous occasions since the 90s the left has rallied to a center-right candidate to ward off the far-right and the results have been disastrous. Not only is the far right strengthened by bolstering its credentials as the only real opposition force to the establishment, the left is drastically weakened at the expense of the center-right.

The scariest thing about neoliberal politics, in fact, is how far "the left" has been willing to go in support of this strategy.

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“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon

there is the extreme right party being the Republicans.

There is no actual 'left'. The center right party that thinks the 'gives' (which actually aren't) toward shutting up those who are actually on the left should be enough.

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You found RBG on the court disastrous? I sure didn't

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I found the foundation for the greatest financial collapse since the great depression, which we haven't recovered from and some think were headed for a round two, to be quite disastrous. ... among many other things.

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It's true right now like it was back then. The old devils are at it again. When I say devil you know who I mean these animals in the dark malicious politicians with nefarious schemes charlatans and crooked cops. - 'Old Devils' William Elliot Whitmore

Haikukitty's picture

We have gotten to where we are. It is a losing strategy.

The Republicans are actually smarter in that they take the longer view and keep working towards it.

A Clinton win is far worse for the left in the long view than a trump win. A trump win has the potential to finally allow Americans to reach bottom, metaphorically, and in so doing finally move en masse back to sanity.

A Clinton win just keeps pushing the left a little farther right.

Do you pull your band aids off fast and have a short period of intense pain, or do you do it slow and while it may be incrementally less painful, make it hurt for much longer?

That's essentially the issue here.

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CambridgePulsar1919's picture

...to get best result possible given any set of circumstances.

What we have been getting is the best result between the shitty options left to us.

And finally, that's just not good enough any more. The center-right has been playing the left for chumps, and using the far-right as a hammer to enforce participation in the theft of our democracy.

If you find yourself voting against your own interests again and again out of fear, then the system has been corrupted and failed.

A vote for $$Hillary for any 'reason' is a vote to support the continuation of this fake democracy.

$$Hillary voters have made it clear that they're okay with President Trump. They've seen that Sanders is a stronger GE candidate, and far stronger against Trump, and yet they've chosen to stick with their broken donkey.

Fuck it, my govt harms me more than it helps me at this point. Burn it down, let Trump prove that it's all a joke and a scam.

55% of Democrats don't care, let them have what they're begging for; good and hard.

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