Why HRC is Better Than Trump

UPDATE 2:06 PM PST
Well, that escalated quickly. To sum up my comments.
1. I am truly sorry for the timing of this diary. Yuuge mistake.
2. Sorry for using words that, due to my ignorance, I did not realize were triggers: "hate, purity, emotional, cookie" these have been marked as the sure sign of trollism, and I am sorry I let such words further undermine already very unpopular opinion.
3. To those I pissed off, or set off their troll alarms - I hate to grovel, but I am not above asking you to please forgive my shoddy timing and word choice, and not let this diary define my presence here. I have learned a lot here, and felt welcomed, and been thrilled to have a new place to go after leaving TOP. A troll I am not, and will never be. Hopefully, I haven't created a situation where I just get dismissed out of hand, but if so I guess I brought it on myself.

UPDATE 5:26 AM:
Thank you all for commenting. As usual, I learned a lot from the discussion. There were some not thrilled, and I get it. My timing was for shit, first and foremost. And I want you to know there tonight for Bernie's speech.
twitter.com/SqueakBaxter/status/740439072502652939
It is an emotional time. We all have to deal in our own way. Mine is to convince everybody to do something I already know they don't want to do, at the worst possible time, when I myself get to vote for Jill Stein because I am in Cali. I think editorial discretion is the lesson here. But to those who read and commented, thank you, and I hope you didn't get too pissed off.

First, this is not the best time for this, but it was a comment I left on a previous diary and I thought it was substantial enough to make it's own, so here it is.

I know this lesser of two evils argument is hated around here, and rightfully so. But I still feel I can make the case that if the #PoliticalRevolution can ONLY have Clinton or Trump this year, and Bernie does not go independent, that it IS MUCH better for the Movement to have a President Clinton than a President Trump. I will never tell anyone they SHOULD vote for HRC, especially if they view their vote as a pure expression of their beliefs. And I respect #BernieOrBust to the utmost. However, personally, and this is just me (he said putting up his hands like Vince Vaughn might) , I look at a vote as a strategic choice. Strategically, IMHO, it is MUCH better to have Clinton. Here is why.

1. The Supreme Court-This is obviously the heart of most lesser of two evils arguments, which makes it a hated device amongst the left, which it should be. The thing is, we hate it because it works, and it works because it has to. Anybody who understands politics understands that the Court is key because of it's power, but also because bad picks last a lifetime, and they do damage. If you don't understand what Scalia, Rheinquist, et al, along with the Federalist Society have done to this country, then you probably won't buy this argument. But if you know, then you really know. That damage is not so easily undone.

2. Power begets power. Anybody living in a red state will tell you that as soon as the GOP gets any real power they start fucking shit up right away, Flint style, Scott Walker Style, Kansas Tax Cut style, Texas Abortion Style, etc. But also, through politicizing of every sector of government, and downright using their positions of authority to straight up cheat, the GOP finds ways to get MORE power and make it MUCH harder for the Movement to gain traction.
Right now, the GOP has the House, Senate, states, and half the court. Trump is no run of the mill Republican, but HE WILL DO WHAT THEY WANT except on pet issues. And protecting rights and NOT expanding power exponentially is not one of his pet issues. GOP full control is a scary thing. The Iraq War, and a lot of other bad shit, happened the last time that was the case. With so many GOP held offices around the country, HRC would be a bit of a countervailing force.

3. My most original argument:
If Trump is President, WE FIGHT HIM. BUT,
there will be violent youth riots in reaction to racist policies, which will bring a police crackdown and suburban backlash. This is the WORST thing that could happen to the left.

If Clinton is President, WE FIGHT HER. BUT,
the youth will protest injustices of all kinds, instead of riot, and we will organize and pressure Dems-THAT IS MUCH MORE PLEASANT

4. National Security
This one is a tough call. But Trump IS erratic, unstable, unfit, and his party is filled with belligerent jerks who could easily bully him into action. I think there is little chance of us committing non-Special Forces ground troops anywhere under either Trump or HRC, due to $$ and war fatigue in both parties, but Trump is an embarrassing and dangerous nightmare on the world stage.

HRC is not a warmonger, but she is FULL ON MIC. Cheney was a warmonger. HRC, Biden, and Kerry were cowards in their Iraq vote. They wanted tough-guy credibility. Kerry felt he got burned when he voted against Gulf War 1, and it "went well," so he was a yes. HRC wanted to be a post 9-11 President. She has no conscience. But warmonger? No.
The weapons deals to the middle east? Yes they are terrible, but this IS US policy right now. Why? First, unfortunately exports are good for the economy even when they are machines of death. Second, and more importantly, we are selling them shitloads of arms to fight in their regional conflicts, because we are telling them that WE won't do for them what we used to, militarily, with our forces. And that is actually good.

So basically, if it's Trump or Clinton, we must FIGHT them tooth and nail. Strategically, and to mitigate a new level of race-baiting, I would rather FIGHT Clinton.

So there you have my well-reasoned yet certainly unpopular opinion. As I say, thank you for reading and commenting if you like. And as always, I wish I could give you a cookie. But, as always, this thing just doesn't work like that.

Share
up
0 users have voted.

Comments

jimpost's picture

GradySeasons for not catering to you or you guys, who can't keep up?

up
0 users have voted.

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.

Anja Geitz's picture

Let me begin by saying how kind it was of you to come here on the morning of our heartbreaking defeat after we were so mercilessly bludgeoned to death by the oh so powerful, to find a message of UNITY waiting for us in a place where we came for a moment of solace.

For those of us who worked hard for Bernie Sanders, who continue to feel disrespected by the media, by the Hillary's campaign, her surrogates and her supporters, who were told by a former President that we would be "toast", it's especially delightful to come here to find, yet again, a big fuck you and your feelings message on behalf of Hillary's candidacy.

It seems as if Hillary's attempt at UNITING as are as hamfisted as the rest of her campaign was.

Good luck on your campaign across progressive sites peddling your Hillary UNITY kumbaya moment to Bernie supporters who are still fresh and raw from last nights defeat, I'm sure your tone deafness and consideration will be well received.

Signed,

A progressive citizen who is working hard protecting our water from politicians taking money from Big Energy.

up
0 users have voted.

There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

mimi's picture

as his holy inalienable right in the good old sanctimonious way of the righteous.

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

up
0 users have voted.
jimpost's picture

You have your opinion, I have mine.

But slamming Grady for expressing theirs makes you a TOPper indeed.

up
0 users have voted.

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.

personal attacks are not allowed on this site. This has been said several time in this diary. Please respect our rules. If you want to attack the message be our guest. If you are attacking the messenger, you are-out-of -line.

up
0 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

jimpost's picture

then I really wonder about the longevity of this site. I addressed, with some snark, someone who did personally attack the messenger.

Did you think I was attacking mimi? Is saying that someone who echoes TOP here is acting like they are from that site a no-no?

up
0 users have voted.

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.

I am just asking everyone to please not get personal. Attack the message but not the messenger. If the message sounds like it came from top, that is a fair comment. If the messenger sounds like someone from top, it's below the belt. If you look below this comment, you will see that I asked mimi to do the same.

up
0 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

jimpost's picture

and I thank you for that.

I just hate seeing people here descending to the lows of that other place. I want us to be better.

Could I have expressed myself more... delicately? Yup. I am not immune to the jump comment. And you were right to call me out, in turn. This is what happens when we have the "right" to express ourselves freely.

But man, can't we do it without slamming someone? Saying their post "insulted our intelligence" was just nasty. It's the kind of thing we need to leave over there.

up
0 users have voted.

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.

We don't want to stifle debate or passions. We just want everybody to not get personal so we don't have a lot of hard feelings. Lord knows there is not a lot of love lost for that other place. I was there 12 years, and I don't miss it a bit. It is amazing how much lower my blood pressure it. Thanks for being so cooperative.

up
0 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

jimpost's picture

Man, I want to be part of the solution.

Not part of the problem!

up
0 users have voted.

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.

Attack the message, not the messenger.

up
0 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

mimi's picture

my comment was just meant to be an add-on to the comment just above mine, from zoebear. Never mind.

up
0 users have voted.

Give us a hand and rise above by sticking to the message instead of the messenger. Would appreciate your help.

up
0 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

mimi's picture

up
0 users have voted.

Some of us actually expected the outcome that came and didn't let hope get in the way of reality.

I didn't want Clinton to win, but the game being played is that it's her turn. I did not bother allowing 'hope' into the picture. Hope, primarily, being the thing people invest in when they don't want reality to occur.

The media even leaked and told us what they were going to do and then they did it.

They basically admitted they're collusion and then went through with it.

Where's the outrage? I'm out of outrage. I have been for a long time. There's none left. It's what should simply be expected.

Obama was the setup for hope and change. He folded and reneged and caved on so many things out of the gate. He showed everyone what hope among Democrats gets them. My wait and see on how Obama did meant I had an 'It figures he'd do that attitude' more often than not.

Clinton slides in on pragmatism and incrementalism buzzwords. The knockdown being the end of the Obama era and the beginning of 'it's her turn' - now forget hope and change kiddies, Clinton has status quo to deliver to the actual important people of this country.

One party - two names - one center right business party and the other party being Republicans.

Survival is the hope and change for most people, and Democrats have been and will now make that even harder working with republicans to ensure that survival in the American economy grows harder for even more people.

Democrats - joining with Republicans to feed on the middle class, the working class, and the poor in order to feed the wealthy business classes.

Corporations are people/citizens after all.
And money is speech…and speeches are also paid for - to shills who 'earned it' - earned it by selling out the peasants/serfs/commoners among the American people.

up
0 users have voted.

Look at it this way: Is one of the two parties in the duopoly able to change so that it reflects the people's needs and values? Does anyone believe that is possible? Alright, so what is needed here is a complete overhaul creating a universe where multiple nationwide umbrellas exist that will field their own candidates so that you have a genuine CHOICE come election time. Those new entities, or at least one, would be built from the ground up, supported by invidividual comtributions modeled after the Sanders campaign. Such a movement needs a leader, naturallly. Someone the people will pay attention to and most importantly trust. Someone who is not only good at making speeches but who has worked towards the common goals without being tainted by being part of the establishment. That leader has been Sanders, but there is no reason why another person could not emerge taking over the mantle in fairly short order. I am sure even Sanders would be delighted to pass the torch given the right successor, but in the immediate future Sanders is the one to lead the fight because there is no other.

You are not going to get this type of revolution by voting for the lesser evil (whoever you determine that to be).

up
0 users have voted.

“The first duty of a man is to think for himself”

What makes you think that there is any potential for a liberal Supreme Court that will overturn Citizens United and defend Roe v. Wade after Obama has nominated Garland? If he was "forced" to capitulate to Republicans, why wouldn't Hillary? What evidence is there to prove that she would nominate judges that are more liberal than those that might retire?

What makes you think that the Democrats have any interest in fighting the GOP over actual issues of substance and not just for more power for themselves? The Obama White House has literally been fighting against US on key issues since day one, including healthcare (Rahm calling us "fucking retarded"), Wall Street (remember the crackdowns on Occupy?), trade policy (Obama keeps pushing TPP), and a host of other issues.

What makes you think that there will be violent youth riots against Trump for his blatantly racist policies, but not against Hillary for her neoliberal ones that reinforce institutional racism? Keep in mind, Black Lives Matter emerged under a sitting Democrat and the first African American president who has deported more people than any other executive in modern history.

And you don't think Hillary is a warmonger? After Iraq? After Syria? After Libya? After Honduras? After the arms sales? After praising Kissinger? Exactly how much more evidence would it take to convince you that she's a neocon in terms of foreign policy?

Frankly, I am at the point where I would rather vote my conscience (by supporting Jill Stein) and risk having a potential fascist with no record as president than a habitual liar that's a proven neoliberal, corrupt politician, and hawk. Better a clear enemy than a "friend" that repeatedly stabs you in the back and divides the opposition. See the divisions, false accusations, and lines of attack in this primary? That's exactly what we'll face with Hillary if she becomes president.

up
0 users have voted.

  1. She is very much a warmonger, and a committed Neocon.....rather than simply just "a coward". She surrounds herself (by choice) with only the most evil, deep-state Neocons (Madeline Allbright, Robert Kagan, James A Baker, Henry Kissinger, Victoria Nuland, Richard Holbrooke, Jake Sullivan, Richard Armitage, Douglas Feith, David Petraeus, Elliot Abrams, Susan Rice, etc.), and Council on Foreign Relations (Rothschilds-Rockefeller owned) globalists World Empire group. She never met a "Regime Change" or Coup D 'Etat that she did not aggressively support, or a troop escalation where she was not in favor of. She seeks direct conflict with Russia (even called Putin "the new Hitler"), and Iran. She would start a War immediately if Israel suggested. With Hillary we will be guaranteed to have more War and "Regime Change" atrocities, and chaos all over Latin America, the Middle-East, other 3rd-World nations, and unnecessary brinksmanship with Russia. War is guaranteed.
  2. With Clinton there is no teachable moment; there is no learning possible. After Iraq....comes Libya..comes Honduras..comes Syria, etc. She coddles power so much that nothing else is really important to her. Everything else is just a phony act read-off of a teleprompter script for public consumption. She will do what the Oligarchs want no matter what. And no matter how severe the embarrassment it causes, or how much of a fiasco she creates -- she is always be either still perfectly right in her mind, or just a victim.
  3. A center-right Corporatist will be chosen to the Supreme Court no matter what. Just like Goldman Sachs or JP Morgan stooges will be named to run the U.S. Treasury no matter what, and Wall Street insiders will make up a large portion of her Cabinet.

In short Hillary Clinton will set back the progressive movement by decades, because too many people will fall for her phony shtick just as they did Obama's shtick.

I'd vote for Jill Stein before Trump, but with Trump he will at least confuse, neutralize, and split-up the GOP because of his ambiguous and changing policy positions which at times do not fit the GOP-grain. He might end these crooked Trade Deals that brought about the horrible deIndustrialization of The United States. He might scale back the spending billions of taxpayers dollars on Foreign Countries and Foreign Banks. He might defeat ISIS by working with Russia. He might also unite the Democratic Party base as an opposition block --- something that will never happen whenever Hillary decides on more Corporatism (fracking, Monsanto, etc.) and more War and more repression (because she is a "democrat").

Notice how it is always the Democrats who bring about the worst of the scaling back of the New Deal (ending Glass-Steagall, ending Welfare, Wall Street deregulation, Crime Bill, Trade deals, Telecommunications Act, etc., and Obama's "cat food" commission for SS) and the consolidation of the big Cartels and their totalitarian interests. The reason is that when you have a right-wing Democrat in power, their is no opposing democratic party coalition anymore to stop it (they have to fall in line), and the left just gets passive and rolls over and goes to sleep.

So I think Hillary is the worst of all choices. She also would not be in the position that she is if not for massive cheating by the Elite interests in this country. She would be no better as President than she was as Secretary of State (a total disaster and very corrupt). All of Obama's more recent 'sane policies' have only come about after John Kerry replaced her.

up
0 users have voted.
jorogo's picture

we are selling them shitloads of arms to fight in their regional conflicts, because we are telling them that WE won't do for them what we used to, militarily, with our forces. And that is actually good.

I was going to take you to task for something in your title, but you've proven yourself to be right - I do hate you for saying this.

up
0 users have voted.

"If I sit silently, I have sinned." - Mossadegh

In short Hillary Clinton will set back the progressive movement by decades, because too many people will fall for her phony shtick just as they did Obama's shtick.

Just as Bill Clinton did when he started the destruction of the Democratic left.

up
0 users have voted.

Beware the bullshit factories.

which would definitely rule out Hillary, because of this action of Obama's:

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2016/06/obama-slams-door-putins-face.html

Hillary is eagerly planning to continue Obama's move to start WWIII with Russia.

While Trump is unstable, he isn't presently planning to nuke Russia.

But we need a VIABLE (I really mean winnable) third party candidate. I hope & pray Bernie has a plan. I think that having him on the top of the Green ticket would be best.

up
0 users have voted.
jorogo's picture

Hillary, through the Clinton Foundation's alliance with the Pinchuk Foundation to "modernize" Ukraine by bringing it into the EU, and NATO into Ukraine along with it, has opened the way for more confrontation with Russia right at their border with Ukraine. There's a frightening reason why the top contributing group to the Clinton Foundation is Ukrianian, and hopefully, recovered emails from Hillary's private SOS server will make this impossible for the MSM to continue to hide this.

Robert Parry at Consortium News seems to be a lone investigative journalist on this.

up
0 users have voted.

"If I sit silently, I have sinned." - Mossadegh

Cassiodorus's picture

up
0 users have voted.

“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon

Deep inside me there's a hurricane of hatred for the policies of the Clintocrats. From Nafta to welfare reform to criminal justice reform to deregging banks, insurance...Iraq, bankruptcy bill, dealings of CGI and foundation...her big fuck-you to govt transparency and all the SoS disgraces. And who could forget all that sweet sweet GS $$?

A tongue made of gold, spitting siren songs to distract the masses from their pending enslavement...is that who I should check the box for? GTFO!

I have family, staunch conservatives mostly. Bush voters and McCain voters and Romney voters are all lining up to support Hillary. I shouldn't stand with them when they're voting GOP, but I should now? Their ideologies haven't shifted.

Fucking bizarro world.

up
0 users have voted.
Cassiodorus's picture

up
0 users have voted.

“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon

Lenzabi's picture

We still will have a contested convention as long as Bernie fights all the way. She still may get convicted before the convention, the super-delegates may still see Bernie is better, with less ammo in his baggage for Trump or others.

But if the pro-corporate corruption wins on July 25th and Bernie is out, looks like Many will vote for Dr. Jill Stein come November, because both the main stream candidates of Trump and Killary are like picking sewage over cesspool contents, both are crappy either way.

up
0 users have voted.

So long, and thanks for all the fish

Hillary is much more dangerous. Trump will face much more resistance/protests than Hillary. Hillary will be allowed to do much more damage.

up
0 users have voted.

up
0 users have voted.

GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

Raggedy Ann's picture

HRC is not better than Herr Drumpf, though - I hope you've gotten that message from the comments. A good discussion has ensued. The people here are well informed and have low tolerance for someone insulting their intelligence - I think you might have found that out. If you are firmly behind voting for hrc - that's certainly your prerogative, but you might want to post something in her support over at TOP. Not many (if anyone) here are going to support or vote for her.

up
0 users have voted.

"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

jimpost's picture

Grady's site-given right to express their opinion here. If you wish to become the spearhead of a new TOP-crazy opinion-suppressing movement here, feel free.

But I will not support you.

Isn't the fact that you can express yourself, here, without fear, what we are all about?

up
0 users have voted.

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.

Raggedy Ann's picture

I'm not asking for your support. Have a lovely day!

up
0 users have voted.

"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

jimpost's picture

I think you missed the point entirely.

I am totally against either of the two establishment candidates. I will vote for neither of them.

But slamming GradySeasons for expressing their opinion is too much like that other place. I thought we came here to be rid of that?

I do not agree with GradySeasons. I will fight to my last breath to allow them to post here. No matter what they have to say.

up
0 users have voted.

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.

Raggedy Ann's picture

I didn't consider my comment as "slamming GradySeasons." My perception, of course. I've made multiple comments in this essay, the first of which I said - vote for who you want, but my house won't vote hrc. Finally, the word "hate" in the original title needed to go. We do need honest discussion here, I agree, and I don't want it to be an echo chamber, either. My opinion is that hrc is NOT better than Herr Drumpf - they are equals. Grady is free to post here, but promoting unity with hrc will get push-back, notwithstanding.

up
0 users have voted.

"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

jimpost's picture

You have put all of our previous comments to rest with this one post.

And yeah, hate did really have to go, unless Grady truly believed it belonged. That doesn't seem to be the case.

Pushback for their opinion? HELLS YES! I'm just so afraid of this wonderful place turning into another TOP, except on the Sander's side. So I was brusk. I hope you will forgive me.

I'm on the Bernie Bus here, I truly believe that he is the only person, right now, who is willing to address the real problems that face us as a people. So fists in the air, and let loose the dogs of real politics!

up
0 users have voted.

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.

Raggedy Ann's picture

I agree we must work together to ensure that doesn't happen.

up
0 users have voted.

"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

jimpost's picture

up
0 users have voted.

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.

riverlover's picture

dysfunctional legislative and executive branches. They are now deemed by many to be The Buck Stops Here Court. As with the stupid (to us) CU ruling, if there were a responsive legislative branch, responsive to us and not beholden to money, this could all have been undone.

As things go, with a split Congress a most perfect liberal President could never get a perfect liberal justice confirmed. It's gridlock, all the way down. Broken.

up
0 users have voted.

Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

you've gotten fucking hammered for this, as you probably should have expected, but you speak for me too.
I have nothing good to say about H Clinton, or about the general concept of "lesser of two evils" voting, but Christ on a crutch, Donald Trump? Yes, she's a better choice IMO.

up
0 users have voted.

Pages